"Extending the Match"

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I would rather be in control of the outcome myself to the extent possible, so I would never count on my opponent's level dropping,

I wouldn't count on it as a primary strategy but I do recognize there's a certain % chance of it happening.

Pushers aren't in control because they rely on opponent errors to win. But if that's what I have to do to extend the match, I'll do just that. It may also fail horribly; I accept that possibility.

but instead would look to raise my level or improve my tactics/strategy.

Notice in my post I mentioned both possibilities [his level dropping and/or my level rising].

 

[GrassCourtFan]

Synthesizing some of the stuff that's been discussed here...

When you're losing, something's got to change. One thing to try is changing strategy - finding a better strategy that'll help you win. Try being more or less aggressive, try changing spins or directions or coming to net more or less.

But sometimes, the strategy's fine and changing it won't help - you just need to execute better (or for your opponent to execute worse). To execute better yourself, common approaches are to either get yourself to hit more shots, to get in a rhythm - i.e. extend the rallies. This could work even if tactically there's no particular reason for longer rallies to help you - the goal would be to have longer rallies to get some rhythm back and to start timing the ball better, but maybe then shorten them again once you're hitting your shots better. Or, extend the time in between points to try and improve your focus - deep breaths, don't rush, etc.

Or vice versa, those both also give opportunities for your opponent to cool down. If they're timing the ball great, maybe making them hit a few more shots will wear them out some, or give them a chance to mistime some shots or think about the score too much. Maybe giving them a bit more time to think will let some adrenaline wear off, or for them to start overthinking.

On their own, both of those are just "losing slower", since it's not like they're going to win you more points on their own. But they could be ways to get your rhythm back (and thus win more points later, and hopefully turn the match aroudn.)

...hmm, could sense to me. If you're losing, you want to slow things down - gives yourself more time to focus, the opponent enough time to overthink - and hit more balls, since it gives a chance for you to find a rhythm or for your opponent to lose it.

And I guess if you're winning and hitting well, the opposite is good - no need to get into extended grinding rallies (unless that's how you got ahead in the first place), don't give your opponent a chance to get their rhythm back. Don't interrupt your rhythm or slow down, keep the good shots flowing. Finish the match before your opponent has a chance to fix their execution or disrupt yours.

I suppose there's a judgement call there. If you're losing, do you need to figure out a different strategy, or do you need to figure out a way to improve your execution? If the problem is that you're just not timing your shots well, then trying different strategies is just going to make you spray a bunch of errors and lose quick. On the other hand, if your execution is fine but your strategy is bad, trying to slow the game down to fix the execution will just make you keep losing, just losing while tiring yourself out more and wasting time.

 

[Moon Shooter]

I think this is situational. I may be down but then find my opponent has trouble with a certain serve or shot. I may want to run up the score hitting that shot as fast as I can before he gets and idea of what is happening and how to deal with it.

I usually start every match just trying to get the ball in with high percentage tennis. So if I am losing then changing to that would mean not changing at all. But that may not always be a good idea. If I know someone is better than me it might throw them to switch it up and play super aggressive at first and possibly lead to them tightening up or at least being off their game. It may be something to think about.

If I am not as in shape as my opponent I will make sure I take a rest break at every change overs. But that is regardless of whether I am winning or not. Even if I am winning the match could turn around and I want to make sure I keep all the energy I can in the tank.

Here are a list of things just off the top of my mind when I am playing singles that I will try to consider. I would love to hear other peoples thoughts:

1) Can I be more consistent in groundstroke battles, pace, slice, moonballs, short balls etc? If so then fine if not then I guess I will try to approach the net or force them to the net.
2) How is his backhand? If he always slices I may try to approach the net.
3) Is he mobile?
4) If he is getting the advantage on his serve return I will serve down the t to give him less angles. I may also throw in a few serve and volley just to make him more nervous on the return.
5) Does he have a good overhead if not I may hit short and then lob.

Part of the problem is we usually only have court time for 1.5 hours. This means we play no ad games and those games can really go quick so if I hit a losing streak I may not have much time to explore these issues.

 

[Chalkdust]

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote. I just happen to believe that despite my best effort, I still may end up with the short end of the stick. The final option, which I'm willing to explore, is to "extend the match". I don't think that's defeatist although you are correct that it's a passive strategy, in the same sense that a pusher relies on the errors of his opponents. It can work, though. But only if you're willing to give it a try.

Yes, there are an infinite # of ways to tweak your game but I would argue they are increasingly less likely to work since you don't *own* those particular tweaks [a hardcore BLer is not going to suddenly become adept at S&V or vice versa]. A higher % play would be to extend the match.

But I see where our philosophies diverge; both are valid.

Here's where I think our mindsets diverge:
When you say "I just happen to believe that despite my best effort, I still may end up with the short end of the stick."...
That is of course objectively true - there are some matches that one is not going to win, regardless.
However, while a match is still in progress, that is never a thought that enters my mind. Perhaps there is an element of delusion involved, but I always have the mindset that I can find a way to win, and I'm going to keep trying to find that way until I lose.
So let's say the situation is that the opponent is winning, several strategies have already been tried, but no success so far.
As I understand your perspective, you might at that point just stick with the most successful of the strategies so far, possibly leaning towards the more conservative side, and despite thinking that a loss is likely, with the idea being that perhaps your opponent's level will drop, or possibly yours will rise.
My perspective would probably lead to a similar outcome from a practical perspective, but with a different mindset: I would also pick the most successful of the high-level strategies so far, but would also continue to tweak and try different nuances with the idea being to find something that works regardless of whether my opponent's level drops or not.
You're probably right that your approach might be higher % in some cases, given the reality that at our level, play level can fluctuate a lot during a match. But I don't like just throwing my arms in the air and letting the outcome depend on my opponent.

 

[Chalkdust]

Synthesizing some of the stuff that's been discussed here...

When you're losing, something's got to change. One thing to try is changing strategy - finding a better strategy that'll help you win. Try being more or less aggressive, try changing spins or directions or coming to net more or less.

But sometimes, the strategy's fine and changing it won't help - you just need to execute better (or for your opponent to execute worse). To execute better yourself, common approaches are to either get yourself to hit more shots, to get in a rhythm - i.e. extend the rallies. This could work even if tactically there's no particular reason for longer rallies to help you - the goal would be to have longer rallies to get some rhythm back and to start timing the ball better, but maybe then shorten them again once you're hitting your shots better. Or, extend the time in between points to try and improve your focus - deep breaths, don't rush, etc.

Or vice versa, those both also give opportunities for your opponent to cool down. If they're timing the ball great, maybe making them hit a few more shots will wear them out some, or give them a chance to mistime some shots or think about the score too much. Maybe giving them a bit more time to think will let some adrenaline wear off, or for them to start overthinking.

On their own, both of those are just "losing slower", since it's not like they're going to win you more points on their own. But they could be ways to get your rhythm back (and thus win more points later, and hopefully turn the match aroudn.)

...hmm, could sense to me. If you're losing, you want to slow things down - gives yourself more time to focus, the opponent enough time to overthink - and hit more balls, since it gives a chance for you to find a rhythm or for your opponent to lose it.

And I guess if you're winning and hitting well, the opposite is good - no need to get into extended grinding rallies (unless that's how you got ahead in the first place), don't give your opponent a chance to get their rhythm back. Don't interrupt your rhythm or slow down, keep the good shots flowing. Finish the match before your opponent has a chance to fix their execution or disrupt yours.

I suppose there's a judgement call there. If you're losing, do you need to figure out a different strategy, or do you need to figure out a way to improve your execution? If the problem is that you're just not timing your shots well, then trying different strategies is just going to make you spray a bunch of errors and lose quick. On the other hand, if your execution is fine but your strategy is bad, trying to slow the game down to fix the execution will just make you keep losing, just losing while tiring yourself out more and wasting time.

Completely agree that sometimes it's not a matter of strategy, it's a matter of execution. But I would still not want to rely on my execution somehow magically getting better by itself over the course of the match. I'd rather try identify why my execution is poor - is it bad footwork, taking the ball a little too early or late, lack of focus, etc, and then make conscious adjustments and tweaks to try improve it. I do agree that having some longer rallies is a good way to work in some of those tweaks.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

But I would still not want to rely on my execution somehow magically getting better by itself over the course of the match. I'd rather try identify why my execution is poor - is it bad footwork, taking the ball a little too early or late, lack of focus, etc, and then make conscious adjustments and tweaks to try improve it. I do agree that having some longer rallies is a good way to work in some of those tweaks.

It's not magic; it's randomness. We all have ups and downs and if I can extend the match until I hit one of those ups or my opponent hits a down, I can benefit from that but only if I haven't lost the match already. Perhaps you think these fluctuations are rare enough that anticipating them is pointless?

BTW: did you read my post with the spoiler? What's your take on the philosophy of the quoted player before opening the spoiler?

"Extending the Match"

Brent Abel and Jeff Jacklich over at "Gold Ball Hunting" talk about the concept of "extending the match": when you're losing, when things are not going your way, when things feel "off", the best response is to try and extend the match. Lose more slowly. Switch to Plan B. Whatever you want to...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[jdawgg]

Completely agree that sometimes it's not a matter of strategy, it's a matter of execution. But I would still not want to rely on my execution somehow magically getting better by itself over the course of the match. I'd rather try identify why my execution is poor - is it bad footwork, taking the ball a little too early or late, lack of focus, etc, and then make conscious adjustments and tweaks to try improve it. I do agree that having some longer rallies is a good way to work in some of those tweaks.

Not a good idea to focus on what’s causing bad execution. Usually overthinking and nerves cause bad execution anyway.

Much better, instead, to quiet the mind which means trying to only think about one thing (like watching the ball).

 

[Chalkdust]

Not a good idea to focus on what’s causing bad execution. Usually overthinking and nerves cause bad execution anyway.

Much better, instead, to quiet the mind which means trying to only think about one thing (like watching the ball).

I guess everyone is different, but in my case I rarely overthink, and I'm not prone to nerves.
The majority of the time my poor execution traces back to poor footwork, which is absolutely something I can focus on and improve as a match progresses.

 

[Chalkdust]

BTW: did you read my post with the spoiler? What's your take on the philosophy of the quoted player before opening the spoiler?

I did, but I did not interpret the mindset behind it the same way you did. He talks about adopting a more conservative playing strategy which I have no dispute with. If plan A isn't working, try plan B, etc. Keep trying, keep fighting. I doubt he was thinking in a passive way (in terms of strategy, not game play).

 

[jdawgg]

I guess everyone is different, but in my case I rarely overthink, and I'm not prone to nerves.
The majority of the time my poor execution traces back to poor footwork, which is absolutely something I can focus on and improve as a match progresses.

True, everyone is different, but these are incredibly common mental issues with peoples games (I saw them quite frequently as a coach and player). Lack of focus is usually just overthinking (too many thoughts going on in your head).

No disrespect, but I feel bad for people who don't experience nerves -- it means they don't care. Nerves can help me play a lot better. As soon as I stop caring I'm quitting tennis thats for sure. I relish those butterflys before a tournament match, it makes me feel alive. Maybe you just have a healthy amount of nerves that don't affect your game much? In that case, that's perfect.

I've found focusing on footwork to be counterproductive in a match. It's like focusing on how to extend my hand to pick up a coffee mug, you will make it a lot worse. Instead, focusing on something like intensity helps my footwork a lot more. If I haven't dialed in the mechanics of my footwork in practice, no amount of trying to fix it in a match is going to help me. What about your footwork do you focus on?

 

[Chalkdust]

No disrespect, but I feel bad for people who don't experience nerves -- it means they don't care. Nerves can help me play a lot better. As soon as I stop caring I'm quitting tennis thats for sure. I relish those butterflys before a tournament match, it makes me feel alive. Maybe you just have a healthy amount of nerves that don't affect your game much? In that case, that's perfect.

I've found focusing on footwork to be counterproductive in a match. It's like focusing on how to extend my hand to pick up a coffee mug, you will make it a lot worse. Instead, focusing on something like intensity helps my footwork a lot more. If I haven't dialed in the mechanics of my footwork in practice, no amount of trying to fix it in a match is going to help me. What about your footwork do you focus on?

No disrespect taken. Caring is good. But for me there is a difference between feeling excited and feeling anxious. Both are signs of caring. Being excited is a positive emotion, like when you are looking forward to something. Being anxious is a negative emotion, like when you are fearful of something, and that's what I consider being nervous (but perhaps you define it differently).

Re footwork, I have a tendency to get lazy with my footwork sometimes, and when I consciously focus on making continuous small steps / adjustments it gets me out of the laziness.

 

[jdawgg]

No disrespect taken. Caring is good. But for me there is a difference between feeling excited and feeling anxious. Both are signs of caring. Being excited is a positive emotion, like when you are looking forward to something. Being anxious is a negative emotion, like when you are fearful of something, and that's what I consider being nervous (but perhaps you define it differently).

Re footwork, I have a tendency to get lazy with my footwork sometimes, and when I consciously focus on making continuous small steps / adjustments it gets me out of the laziness.

I think there’s is no physiological difference between anxiety and excitement. The difference is how your brain perceives it.

My experience of focusing on small steps in a match is not good. If my footwork is bad it’s usually because of nerves. I know my footwork is good in practice. If I focus on small steps I start to take too many and I’m setting up for the shot late and hitting the ball late. It just throws off my entire rhythm.

I would never teach a student to focus on that in a match. Mostly the goal in a match is to quiet your mind and think of as little as possible. You dance with the gal you brought, if your footwork sucks in practice it’s very unlikely to be fixed during a match

 

[Chalkdust]

I think there’s is no physiological difference between anxiety and excitement. The difference is how your brain perceives it.

That is true. However it's a very impactful difference. In fact for those prone to nerves, one way to learn to manage them is by shifting the emotion to excitement.
Here's a short layman's article on the topic: https://www.inc.com/nate-klemp/feel...que-to-quiet-negative-voice-in-your-head.html

 

[beltsman]

It depends if you're talking about technique or strategy. What I mean is, I can extend any match by resorting to hacking and junkballing. Or I can continue to swing out at the ball and try to find my groove. Sometimes it's a delicate balance because if you're totally off and burning through games too quickly, you'll run out of time before you find your groove. But on the flip side, you don't want to lose confidence in your strokes and start hacking just because you're losing. It's vital to have confidence in your game and swing out.

On the strategy side, I agree that if you are losing because you are going for too much then you should reign it in and start at least hitting rally balls to settle things down and make your opponent work.

 

[Power Player]

I do this, I hit softer and safer. Usually the guys who give me trouble love pace so I find that taking some MPH gets me settled in and makes it easier to find patterns that work.

 

[StringSnapper]

No; score, not time is what I had in mind.

Toilet break worked for tsitsipas