Extrem grip second serve

#1
Is it possible to use eastern backhand grip for second serve?
If it would be too extrem, how extrem grip would be still possible to use?

Thank you for your answer
Toth
 
#2
A few players use slightly towards eastern, a smaller percentage almost complete eastern, but i dont think anyone uses more than that.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#3
Is it possible to use eastern backhand grip for second serve?
If it would be too extrem, how extrem grip would be still possible to use?

Thank you for your answer
Toth
Edberg had a 2nd serve grip towards the eastern BH. He would be a good one to copy if you're experimenting with that grip. I wouldn't recommend going any more extreme than Edberg's grip.

Here's a good closeup of his grip at 0:15:

 

dman72

Hall of Fame
#4
Edberg had a 2nd serve grip towards the eastern BH. He would be a good one to copy if you're experimenting with that grip. I wouldn't recommend going any more extreme than Edberg's grip.

Here's a good closeup of his grip at 0:15:

Yep that's 100% a backhand grip.
 
#7
Thank you very much!
I have tried this grip, a lot of spin, but feels akwaard very much, almoust falls the racket from my hand out ...
 

dman72

Hall of Fame
#8
Thank you very much!
I have tried this grip, a lot of spin, but feels akwaard very much, almoust falls the racket from my hand out ...
It helps to have a thin beamed racket with this kind of serve. It's just a question of practicing it so it stops feeling awkward. Once you get it it's a relatively easy way to hit either get me over topspin serves or very hard ones.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
#9
Edberg had a 2nd serve grip towards the eastern BH. He would be a good one to copy if you're experimenting with that grip. I wouldn't recommend going any more extreme than Edberg's grip.

Here's a good closeup of his grip at 0:15:

If I remember correctly, and I'm showing my age now, but his 2nd serve was continuously under criticism...
 
#13
You definitely can use it. I've used it before if I'm going for more extreme of a kick serve. Now I usually have it in between continental and eastern backhand though.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#16
Is it possible to use eastern backhand grip for second serve?
If it would be too extrem, how extrem grip would be still possible to use?

Thank you for your answer
Toth
do you plan to use conti for 1st, then ebh for 2nd? too much variation i need to learn IMO
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
#18
That's what I do.

Conti for 1st serve flat or slice.

Move slightly towards EBH for 2nd serve kick. (easier to access spin, for me personally)

Been doing it for so many years now I don't even think about it :)
i found it more consistent to just use 1 grip
i used to use ebh, for spin
then switched to conti for slightly more pace
but trying to switch between the two (between 1st & 2nd serves) did not give me good feel and placement.
but that just means i'm probably not that talented :p
 
#21
And you lose a tremendous amount of pace with that grip too. Not sure why you'd want to handicap yourself. Learn to hit spin with conti. Serve is all about mechanics and technique. 99% of pros use conti for 1st and 2nd serves.
Sometimes spin is more important than pace, like when you are going for the sharp angle kicker from the ad side. Sometimes pace is more important than spin. You have to have a variety. Most of the time I'm in between continental and eastern backhand for my second serve, but sometimes I'm continental, and sometimes I'll go eastern. You can get decent spin with continental, and you can get decent pace with eastern. It's not a one-size-fits-all stroke.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#22
And you lose a tremendous amount of pace with that grip too.
I don't think I'd call it "tremendous." After all the OP is asking about a 2nd serve.

Edberg brought pretty good heat with his spinny 2nd serves!

IMO, a good 2nd serve is a combination of both spin and speed. YMMV...
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#23
but trying to switch between the two (between 1st & 2nd serves) did not give me good feel and placement.
but that just means i'm probably not that talented :p
Or you just didn't get enough reps in :) hahaha

To me the flat vs. slice vs. kick serve are so completely different from each other (in my brain anyway), that it doesn't feel awkward using a different grip. Just like it doesn't feel awkward to switch to a conti for 1HBH slice vs. EBH grip for 1HBH topspin, since they are completely different shots...
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#25
https://steemit.com/steemit/@pakcek/stefan-edberg

"His second serve was a bit too harmless at times in his career. "

This is was roughly the kind of dialog I can recall.
Well, he won ~52% of his 2nd serves (just a couple percent behind Sampras - who is widely considered to have one of the best 2nd serves of that era), so must not have been too harmless! Although, when backed up with his volley it didn't have to be as good as other player's 2nd serves...

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/StefanEdberg.html
http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/PeteSampras.html
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
#26
Well, he won ~52% of his 2nd serves (just a couple percent behind Sampras - who is widely considered to have one of the best 2nd serves of that era), so must not have been too harmless! Although, when backed up with his volley it didn't have to be as good as other player's 2nd serves...

http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/StefanEdberg.html
http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/PeteSampras.html
These are Murray's stats on the second serve:

51.96% won. Let's round up to 52%. Snap.

He is no pushover either and won a few slams. But I think we can all agree that if we haven't said it, then many have - that his second serve has been amongst the weakest part of his game. Often it has either been too short, or too slow - or dare I say it, "harmless".

Would Murray achieve more if had a better second serve?

I'm guessing the same question was asked with Edberg back in the day.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#27
These are Murray's stats on the second serve:

51.96% won. Let's round up to 52%. Snap.

He is no pushover either and won a few slams. But I think we can all agree that if we haven't said it, then many have - that his second serve has been amongst the weakest part of his game. Often it has either been too short, or too slow - or dare I say it, "harmless".

Would Murray achieve more if had a better second serve?

I'm guessing the same question was asked with Edberg back in the day.
You're comparing across eras, which is difficult. Edberg used 85" racket with gut, whereas Murray uses ~97" racket with poly. % serve points won has risen slightly in today's era compared to Edberg's era.

Who in the 1980's/1990's era besides Sampras had a better 2nd serve than Edberg? According to Match Charting Project, Edberg won a higher % of his 2nd serves than almost everyone else of his era including Boris Becker and Goran Ivanisevic !?!
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
#28
You're comparing across eras, which is difficult. Edberg used 85" racket with gut, whereas Murray uses ~97" racket with poly. % serve points won has risen slightly in today's era compared to Edberg's era.

Who in the 1980's/1990's era besides Sampras had a better 2nd serve than Edberg? According to Match Charting Project, Edberg won a higher % of his 2nd serves than almost everyone else of his era including Boris Becker and Goran Ivanisevic !?!
I appreciate that, but I wonder how much of that is down to the serve or his ability to deal with the followup
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
#29
I appreciate that, but I wonder how much of that is down to the serve or his ability to deal with the followup
True, it's hard to disentangle that...

He had one of the best 1st volleys of any S&V. Most of the time he hits his 1st volley in front of the service line!

One could argue that since he was such an awesome volleyer, that his slightly slower/spinnier serve allowed him one more step towards the net.

Pros: slightly closer to the net (better angles, take more time away from opponent)
Cons: face slightly tougher return

Maybe he weighed the pros/cons and consciously decided for a slightly slower/spinnier 2nd serve?!?
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
#30
True, it's hard to disentangle that...

He had one of the best 1st volleys of any S&V. Most of the time he hits his 1st volley in front of the service line!

One could argue that since he was such an awesome volleyer, that his slightly slower/spinnier serve allowed him one more step towards the net.

Pros: slightly closer to the net (better angles, take more time away from opponent)
Cons: face slightly tougher return

Maybe he weighed the pros/cons and consciously decided for a slightly slower/spinnier 2nd serve?!?
It was interesting reading that he ignored the instruction of split stepping when going to the net from the baseline after serve, he said his focus was to rush to the net. One of the best and most likeable players of my childhood!
 
#31
And you lose a tremendous amount of pace with that grip too. Not sure why you'd want to handicap yourself. Learn to hit spin with conti. Serve is all about mechanics and technique. 99% of pros use conti for 1st and 2nd serves.
I don't think you lose pace at all with eastern bh grip. Seemed to work ok for Goran & Dr. Ivo. Works ok for me too.
 
#32
His palm up prep for serve is what Milos uses. Does that help in kick serves? Note that he takes his racket quite far back (almost straight arm) with palm still up before he gets to trophy.

To some extent thiem also does that - I mean take arm up with palm sort of facing up.

I never do that with my serve. Wondering if should ....
 
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