Extreme inversion on forehand on the ATP tour?

[zill]

Kyle Edmund to me inverts his forehand the most and for the longest period of time before flipping it back open and contacting the ball.

Anyone else do the same? I checked Sock, Tiafoe, Djkovic, Wawrinka all invert a lot but flip it back to the other side much sooner than Edmund. Which other pros invert their forehands a lot and flip back late?

Also what are the pros and cons of doing this?

 

[Curious]

Inverting a forehand??

 

[heninfan99]

Inverting a forehand??

I think he means on the take-back instead of "patting the dog" some pat the back fence

 

[Deleted member 23235]

kyrgios fh is extreme too... IMO:
PRO: more rhs (from the forearm rotation)... (ie. baseball pitchers' palm starts facing away from target)
CON: harder to time... therefore requires more reps to dial in... and more likely to break down under pressure
IMO the rec player who can only devote <10h a week, would benefit from a simpler technique
my $0.02

 

[ChaelAZ]

I am trying to do this more on my take-back, or at least investigating how it effects my swing. I find that the extra rotation and turn of the racquet face helps me to close it when getting below the ball and gets me into a better position to rotate and lag the racquet for power. I've even tried the extreme like Edmund/Kyrios/Sock, and while it does help me generate a lot more spin and maybe a bit more pop, too extreme also doesn't feel natural enough. The biggest difference is when I try to play up on the baseline that extreme rotation takes me too long and I feel I am hitting late. Maybe if I practiced more I would learn to prep early enough and get the timing, but really to make it useful for me now I need to find how to include more rotation to get extra spin and pop without breaking everything else.

 

[ptuanminh]

Edmund's forehand is very non-singular so he can invert it easily. Not sure about others.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I am trying to do this more on my take-back, or at least investigating how it effects my swing. I find that the extra rotation and turn of the racquet face helps me to close it when getting below the ball and gets me into a better position to rotate and lag the racquet for power. I've even tried the extreme like Edmund/Kyrios/Sock, and while it does help me generate a lot more spin and maybe a bit more pop, too extreme also doesn't feel natural enough. The biggest difference is when I try to play up on the baseline that extreme rotation takes me too long and I feel I am hitting late. Maybe if I practiced more I would learn to prep early enough and get the timing, but really to make it useful for me now I need to find how to include more rotation to get extra spin and pop without breaking everything else.

IMO, if your timing is good, you can get plenty of lag -> rhs -> topspin with "only" a "pat the dog" position.
if you're training >10h, go for it, but by then you'll already know what works/doesn't work for yourself.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Edmund's forehand is very non-singular so he can invert it easily. Not sure about others.

what the heck is "non-singular"?

 

[norcal]

what the heck is "non-singular"?

Plural.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Plural.

lol, wtf is a "plural fh"
i hate when a $10 word is used, when a $0.05 word would have been more appropriate.
unless you're defending a thesis, or in legal court, etc... there's never a need for $10 words
and you're just exercising intellectual masturbation.

 

[ptuanminh]

lol, wtf is a "plural fh"
i hate when a $10 word is used, when a $0.05 word would have been more appropriate.
unless you're defending a thesis, or in legal court, etc... there's never a need for $10 words
and you're just exercising intellectual masturbation.

Lol i was just throwing random words

 

[mad dog1]

what the heck is "non-singular"?

The only way to combat crazy is to respond in kind. It’s called fighting fire with fire.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

The only way to combat crazy is to respond in kind. It’s called fighting fire with fire.

i've been involved a decent amount in toastmasters the last year, studying/giving speeches, etc... (eg. ted talks) so i've become a stickler for clarity.
best speeches, are usually simple, without uncommon words (ie. lay speak)
not to mention, all the "masters" i admire, can break down the most complicated topics my kid can understand.

i know i'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but when i hear someone using $10 words, i immediately think, "they don't know wtf they are talking about, and are hiding their ignorance by using words/phrases/acronyms that no one else knows" (ie. make the audience feel dumb before they get a chance to realize the speaker is an idiot)

 

[mad dog1]

i've been involved a decent amount in toastmasters the last year, studying/giving speeches, etc... (eg. ted talks) so i've become a stickler for clarity.
best speeches, are usually simple, without uncommon words (ie. lay speak)
not to mention, all the "masters" i admire, can break down the most complicated topics my kid can understand.

i know i'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but when i hear someone using $10 words, i immediately think, "they don't know wtf they are talking about, and are hiding their ignorance by using words/phrases/acronyms that no one else knows" (ie. make the audience feel dumb before they get a chance to realize the speaker is an idiot)

Don’t derail this thread. Please stay on topic.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Don’t derail this thread. Please stay on topic.

my bad.
so i goof around with doing this hyper inverted fh takeback with doing xcourt fh mini... ie. trying to land the ball inside the box as close to the net as possible.

 

[mad dog1]

my bad.
so i goof around with doing this hyper inverted fh takeback with doing xcourt fh mini... ie. trying to land the ball inside the box as close to the net as possible.

Thank you for your cooperation!

 

[ptuanminh]

I have a fairly short stroke, i try to do all the basic stuff like getting my body into the short, also my hip and shoulder action. But i still have problems hitting clean deep forehands.
Imagine you have one of those fancy extreme inverted wrist FH. Unless you start training when you were young, i dont see anyway a rec adult can use those kinds of fancy techniques efficiently.

 

[ByeByePoly]

i've been involved a decent amount in toastmasters the last year, studying/giving speeches, etc... (eg. ted talks) so i've become a stickler for clarity.
best speeches, are usually simple, without uncommon words (ie. lay speak)
not to mention, all the "masters" i admire, can break down the most complicated topics my kid can understand.

i know i'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but when i hear someone using $10 words, i immediately think, "they don't know wtf they are talking about, and are hiding their ignorance by using words/phrases/acronyms that no one else knows" (ie. make the audience feel dumb before they get a chance to realize the speaker is an idiot)

I hate ostentatious words.

recherché post.

 

[5point5]

i've been involved a decent amount in toastmasters the last year, studying/giving speeches, etc... (eg. ted talks) so i've become a stickler for clarity.
best speeches, are usually simple, without uncommon words (ie. lay speak)
not to mention, all the "masters" i admire, can break down the most complicated topics my kid can understand.

i know i'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but when i hear someone using $10 words, i immediately think, "they don't know wtf they are talking about, and are hiding their ignorance by using words/phrases/acronyms that no one else knows" (ie. make the audience feel dumb before they get a chance to realize the speaker is an idiot)

They have a brobdingnagian vocabulary.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

 

[J011yroger]

lol, wtf is a "plural fh"
i hate when a $10 word is used, when a $0.05 word would have been more appropriate.
unless you're defending a thesis, or in legal court, etc... there's never a need for $10 words
and you're just exercising intellectual masturbation.

I never use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.

J

 

[J011yroger]

I hate ostentatious words.

recherché post.

Sometimes I use words I don't really understand to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

J

 

[Deleted member 120290]

Sometimes I use words I don't really understand to make myself sound more photosynthesis.

J

I use fancy words to make myself look impotent.

 

[TennisCJC]

My 2 cents and I'll try to use simple words.

Assumption: "inversion" means strings pointing toward back fence at end of take back like Edmunds and Djokovic.

My 2 cents:

I think this is a function of grip and how high your take back is at the farthest point. Let's assume a player has an E/SW hybrid girp and their racket face looks directly at the ground at the end of the backswing or during the "flip" if you prefer that terminology. Now stop that player exactly when the racket face is looking at the ground and imagine what would happen if you changed their grip from E/SW to FULL W. Your imagination should be telling you that simply rotating the grip to FULL W, the strings would point more toward the back fence.

Also, let's assume the point at "flip" where the strings face the ground for the E/SW hybrid grip is about waist high. Now imagine if the player had prep for a really high bouncing ball and his hand was near arm pit high at the flip. Put your palm facing the ground around waist high at the end of the take back. Now raise your arm from the shoulder and keep the hand position fixed. The racket face will turn marginally toward the back fence as your arm rises from the shoulder.

So, how far back the strings face is a predominantly a function of the grip and secondarily a function of how high is the take back.

I would advise against forcing your swing to have the strings point at the back fence. I think you want to have the strings pointed anywhere from slightly downward at the ground to toward the back fence but it needs to be a good fit for your grip. Federer and Del Po use E/SW hybrid grips. Del Po only gets slightly closed as he starts the swing forward. Federer gets fully closed where strings point directly at ground on most forehands. Djokovic and Edmunds use SW or SW/W grips and they point more toward back fence.

I think trying to force the strings toward back fence is not good but it may be OK if you have a strong SW or W grip. I also think it will feel natural if you have strong SW or W grip. I think palm slightly down is a better checkpoint or visualization and let the strings face where they face. Take a smooth swing without a racket thinking of your palm facing slightly down at end of take back and then take the same swing with the racket. The strings will orient differently based on your grip and swing path. I would work to NOT alter the swing path to make the face point backwards as that's seems like just adding unnecessary complexity to a sport that's already difficult enough.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I never use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.

J

Sounds like my tennis.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I use fancy words to make myself look impotent.

impotent isn't a look ... it's a lack of a look.

 

[zalive]

Yes, Edmund definitely perverts his FH...er, inverts...

 

[mad dog1]

Yes, Edmund definitely perverts his FH...er, inverts...

Does a fully inverted or perverted forehand simply turn into a backhand?

 

[Bender]

i've been involved a decent amount in toastmasters the last year, studying/giving speeches, etc... (eg. ted talks) so i've become a stickler for clarity.
best speeches, are usually simple, without uncommon words (ie. lay speak)
not to mention, all the "masters" i admire, can break down the most complicated topics my kid can understand.

i know i'm not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but when i hear someone using $10 words, i immediately think, "they don't know wtf they are talking about, and are hiding their ignorance by using words/phrases/acronyms that no one else knows" (ie. make the audience feel dumb before they get a chance to realize the speaker is an idiot)

Best Best Man Speech Ever:
"These two are getting married. Congratulations."

 

[Bender]

I hate ostentatious words.

recherché post.

I never use a big word where a diminutive one will suffice.

J

 

[ARKustom93]

Kyle Edmund to me inverts his forehand the most and for the longest period of time before flipping it back open and contacting the ball.

Anyone else do the same? I checked Sock, Tiafoe, Djkovic, Wawrinka all invert a lot but flip it back to the other side much sooner than Edmund. Which other pros invert their forehands a lot and flip back late?

Also what are the pros and cons of doing this?

Doesn't matter, ... feels right, and most importantly, works ... the end

 

[Curious]

My 2 cents and I'll try to use simple words.

Assumption: "inversion" means strings pointing toward back fence at end of take back like Edmunds and Djokovic.

My 2 cents:

I think this is a function of grip and how high your take back is at the farthest point. Let's assume a player has an E/SW hybrid girp and their racket face looks directly at the ground at the end of the backswing or during the "flip" if you prefer that terminology. Now stop that player exactly when the racket face is looking at the ground and imagine what would happen if you changed their grip from E/SW to FULL W. Your imagination should be telling you that simply rotating the grip to FULL W, the strings would point more toward the back fence.

Also, let's assume the point at "flip" where the strings face the ground for the E/SW hybrid grip is about waist high. Now imagine if the player had prep for a really high bouncing ball and his hand was near arm pit high at the flip. Put your palm facing the ground around waist high at the end of the take back. Now raise your arm from the shoulder and keep the hand position fixed. The racket face will turn marginally toward the back fence as your arm rises from the shoulder.

So, how far back the strings face is a predominantly a function of the grip and secondarily a function of how high is the take back.

I would advise against forcing your swing to have the strings point at the back fence. I think you want to have the strings pointed anywhere from slightly downward at the ground to toward the back fence but it needs to be a good fit for your grip. Federer and Del Po use E/SW hybrid grips. Del Po only gets slightly closed as he starts the swing forward. Federer gets fully closed where strings point directly at ground on most forehands. Djokovic and Edmunds use SW or SW/W grips and they point more toward back fence.

I think trying to force the strings toward back fence is not good but it may be OK if you have a strong SW or W grip. I also think it will feel natural if you have strong SW or W grip. I think palm slightly down is a better checkpoint or visualization and let the strings face where they face. Take a smooth swing without a racket thinking of your palm facing slightly down at end of take back and then take the same swing with the racket. The strings will orient differently based on your grip and swing path. I would work to NOT alter the swing path to make the face point backwards as that's seems like just adding unnecessary complexity to a sport that's already difficult enough.

I dont think it's the grip. Murray and Ferrer have SW-W as well but they dont do it. I think it's more about the wrist position ie if it's bent back (extended) it automatically turns the hitting side of racket face to the back fence like what Djoko and Wawrinka do. Flexed wrist, not so much.

 

[bigservesofthands]

Kyle Edmund to me inverts his forehand the most and for the longest period of time before flipping it back open and contacting the ball.

Anyone else do the same? I checked Sock, Tiafoe, Djkovic, Wawrinka all invert a lot but flip it back to the other side much sooner than Edmund. Which other pros invert their forehands a lot and flip back late?

Also what are the pros and cons of doing this?

He is not inverting enough! He is semi-PoMo in that aspect.

The idea is to accentuate the pre-pre-stretch so that you amplify the pre-stretch you get (before you start pulling the racquet to the ball) that is released during contact.

The idea is to hold it for as long as you can so that you shorten the two SSCs that follow. Kyle does that well. He needs to increase the magnitude of the initial stretch though. He is leaving over half on the table. Tiafoe is in a similar camp. He does not hold it for as long as Kyle but he pre-prestretches a little bit more. He needs to hold it for longer and do a full PoMo pre-prestretch before that. Being able to hit with a fully straight arm would be an added bonus but can be skipped.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

 

[TennisCJC]

I dont think it's the grip. Murray and Ferrer have SW-W as well but they dont do it. I think it's more about the wrist position ie if it's bent back (extended) it automatically turns the hitting side of racket face to the back fence like what Djoko and Wawrinka do. Flexed wrist, not so much.

There will always be exceptions due to mechanics but I think grip plays a significant role. If most players used a conti grip for FHs like back in the 1960s grass days, I would wager a $1 that you wouldn't see very many strings facing the back fence.

 

[Kevo]

I don't think there is that much to comment on in the way of pros or cons. It's not much different than the "usual" stroke. It might make preparation take slightly longer, but on the forehand that's not much of a problem unless you can't short circuit your take back, but I'm pretty sure all pros are capable of doing that as needed. So I see it as a personal style thing without much consequence. I wouldn't teach it as I think you are generally better off keeping your strokes as simple as possible and should only complicate them if there is a clear advantage.