Fact or Fiction: In League Play(Ex:USTA) Men are Atleast a ***k # Rating Ahead...

L

Loose Cannon

Rookie
of Women of the same rating.....

Not sure if I worded that completely correct.....so here is an example to illustrate......no knock on the female representers.......

Is a 3.5 man = 4.5 Female????

Could a 5.0 Female take out a 4.0 Male?????

How would a Solid 4.5 Male do against a Division 1 Female?



Don't be humble.....lets hear the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
What I want to know is why so many men care if they can beat a woman in tennis. Does it do something for fragile male egos to declare, "I'm a 3.5 man, and I could beat a 4.0 woman in singles"?
 
It really depends on what kind of game you have. I think generally there is about a .75 difference in rating points between genders.
 
There is no truth. Just individual experiences. Now, according to my limited experience the difference would be 1 point. A while ago, I played with 5.0 girl and I beat her only because of my serve which is the best part of my game. Other than that we were very close and I would say she was better consistency wise. I'm 4.0.
 
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alb1 said:
I would expect the 4.0 man to defeat the dead horse by a closer score than the 3.5 woman because the man is more fearful of being bumped up. :)
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HAHAHAHA So true !!

Cindysphinx said:
What I want to know is why so many men care if they can beat a woman in tennis. Does it do something for fragile male egos to declare, "I'm a 3.5 man, and I could beat a 4.0 woman in singles"?
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For me the only reason I would want to know this is if I'm looking for a match and I want to get someone roughly around my own ability level.

If I played with a 3.5 woman I'd probably be wasting my time, just like if I played with a 5.0+ woman I'd probably be wasting her time. A 4.0-4.5 woman would be likely to be about right for me.
 
Loose Cannon said:
of Women of the same rating.....

Not sure if I worded that completely correct.....so here is an example to illustrate......no knock on the female representers.......

Is a 3.5 man = 4.5 Female????

Could a 5.0 Female take out a 4.0 Male?????

How would a Solid 4.5 Male do against a Division 1 Female?



Don't be humble.....lets hear the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Both would lose to a ranked 12 year old girl, so who cares?
 
If we are talking about averages and middle of the range for their ratings:

Q: Is a 3.5 man = 4.5 Female????
A: No. 3.5 man < 4.5 Female to the tune of 6-2 6-2

Q: Could a 5.0 Female take out a 4.0 Male?????
A: Yes she could and she will 90% of the time.

Q: How would a Solid 4.5 Male do against a Division 1 Female?
A: Poorly.
 
I played a D1 female who was also an All American at Florida a couple of months ago -I'm a 4.5.

I got beat 3 and 4. Her serve was not super strong, but her groundstrokes were out of this world, and she was very quick.

Anything I put in the middle of the court with medium pace was put away with force. But it was a pretty even match overall, I got to deuce most games.
 
ian2 said:
If we are talking about averages and middle of the range for their ratings:

Q: Is a 3.5 man = 4.5 Female????
A: No. 3.5 man < 4.5 Female to the tune of 6-2 6-2

Q: Could a 5.0 Female take out a 4.0 Male?????
A: Yes she could and she will 90% of the time.

Q: How would a Solid 4.5 Male do against a Division 1 Female?
A: Poorly.
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Depends on the level of D1 player, if lower D1 a 4.5 will win 66%, if a Top 75 Team player then D1 player 50/50. If a Top 75 individual then D1 player 75%
 
LuckyR said:
Both would lose to a ranked 12 year old girl, so who cares?
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How does 3 options institute 'both'?????:confused:



I do.....thus the thread. If you don't care for the generalization......its is 100% easier to IGNORE than to file a complaint to someone who doesn't care......
 
ian2 said:
If we are talking about averages and middle of the range for their ratings:

Q: Is a 3.5 man = 4.5 Female????
A: No. 3.5 man < 4.5 Female to the tune of 6-2 6-2

Q: Could a 5.0 Female take out a 4.0 Male?????
A: Yes she could and she will 90% of the time.

Q: How would a Solid 4.5 Male do against a Division 1 Female?
A: Poorly.
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Thanks for the input, Ma'am!!!
 
jdubbs said:
I played a D1 female who was also an All American at Florida a couple of months ago -I'm a 4.5.

I got beat 3 and 4. Her serve was not super strong, but her groundstrokes were out of this world, and she was very quick.

Anything I put in the middle of the court with medium pace was put away with force. But it was a pretty even match overall, I got to deuce most games.
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Thats a respectable effort! Demand a Rematch!!!!!
 
JLyon said:
Depends on the level of D1 player, if lower D1 a 4.5 will win 66%, if a Top 75 Team player then D1 player 50/50. If a Top 75 individual then D1 player 75%
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Interesting.


Not sure why I put Division 1.....???? But we'll stick with it......


I didn't put 5.0......because I seen some 5.0's in an Open Tourney.......that I would bet the house on in the same scenario I presented.....


Just me speculating.......no big deal either way....
 
JLyon said:
Depends on the level of D1 player, if lower D1 a 4.5 will win 66%, if a Top 75 Team player then D1 player 50/50. If a Top 75 individual then D1 player 75%
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If you were talking about a lower end 5.0, I would agree. Or a sanbagging self rated 4.5 that bagels all the 4.5s.

I don't play too many 4.5 players that I would give a 2 in 3 chance against a low level D1 female. And I don't know any that would beat a top 75 player 1 out of 4 times. Alex Cercone at UF would fit that category, plays #4 here and ranks around 50-60. No way, no chance for a 4.5 guy against her.
 
floridatennisdude said:
If you were talking about a lower end 5.0, I would agree. Or a sanbagging self rated 4.5 that bagels all the 4.5s.

I don't play too many 4.5 players that I would give a 2 in 3 chance against a low level D1 female. And I don't know any that would beat a top 75 player 1 out of 4 times. Alex Cercone at UF would fit that category, plays #4 here and ranks around 50-60. No way, no chance for a 4.5 guy against her.
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Just scrimmaged a Southland Conference Team few months back, they beat the mid 4.0 guys easily, the 2 4.5 guys won and lost against the #2-3 players and 5.0 player split with #1.

You would be correct actually on the Top 75 player, no TRUE 4.5 could hang but you could get some young sandbagger down and that might happen, but a true 4.5 would more than likely get beaten down.

Only Top D1 level player I beat while I was a 4.5 was a young lady who played #6 at Baylor and that was a 7-5, 7-5 score.
 
The it's about .75 difference is pretty solid I feel . I do feel that top players can win a full point ahead but that is probally because they are not rated correctly
 
We've kinda beat this to death. Stop talking and play. I am a 3.5 who plays a 4.5 woman (went to the 4.0 nationals finals last year), and I know the answer to the question. Go out and find out for yourself.
 
JLyon said:
Just scrimmaged a Southland Conference Team few months back, they beat the mid 4.0 guys easily, the 2 4.5 guys won and lost against the #2-3 players and 5.0 player split with #1.

You would be correct actually on the Top 75 player, no TRUE 4.5 could hang but you could get some young sandbagger down and that might happen, but a true 4.5 would more than likely get beaten down.

Only Top D1 level player I beat while I was a 4.5 was a young lady who played #6 at Baylor and that was a 7-5, 7-5 score.
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I'm a 4.5c player, fairly rated. I had the opportunity to warm up a girl who is currently ranked top 120 in the D1 singles rankings prior to a pro tourney she was trying to qualify for. I would have no business playing a competitive match against her. She was quicker, hit a bit heavier, and was far more accurate. It would have been a blood bath and I wouldn't say I was having an off day.
 
floridatennisdude said:
I'm a 4.5c player, fairly rated. I had the opportunity to warm up a girl who is currently ranked top 120 in the D1 singles rankings prior to a pro tourney she was trying to qualify for. I would have no business playing a competitive match against her. She was quicker, hit a bit heavier, and was far more accurate. It would have been a blood bath and I wouldn't say I was having an off day.
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I bet it was a great hit for you though, many guys especially at the 4.5 or higher rating need to suck it up and take the time to work out with the Women's Teams and will find they will get a great hit, even if it is humbling.
Had on player at my UG school who beat me like a drum and she got as high as Top 20 in nation and has been as high as #30 in the world in doubles.
 
Top D1 women's players would probably be around the level of a good 5.0 male.

It's just not the same as D1 men's where they can completely overpower you with their serve and groundstrokes, at least usually.

When I see the D1 women I think it'd be interesting playing against them and could be competitive. Of course it doesn't really matter what the comparison is. It's a different game somewhat. Their competition is different so their style of play is going to be different as well. It's hard to compare.
 
JLyon said:
I bet it was a great hit for you though, many guys especially at the 4.5 or higher rating need to suck it up and take the time to work out with the Women's Teams and will find they will get a great hit, even if it is humbling.
Had on player at my UG school who beat me like a drum and she got as high as Top 20 in nation and has been as high as #30 in the world in doubles.
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Great hit, for sure. And I'm looking forward to watching her play today online.
 
From playing mixed doubles, I see about a 1/2-3/4 point difference. Also, you can not characterize a D1 player. My friend's team, the first year he coached D1 had someone who played 6th singles who had never played tennis in her life, but liked to watch it on TV. Now, several years later, the team made nationals.
 
A strong 3.5 male can and will beat a 4.0 woman. If you cannot, then you're not a 3.5. Generally speaking the men's level of play can be applied to .5 - .75 higher in the women's scale.
 
SwankPeRFection said:
A strong 3.5 male can and will beat a 4.0 woman. If you cannot, then you're not a 3.5. Generally speaking the men's level of play can be applied to .5 - .75 higher in the women's scale.
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Agreed.....If you a re a singles player, you should be able to smack them silly. Their Groundies just arent that scary to me. But even then.....when you are beting a female rated higher than you.....you still get that 'Oh, you're doing that against a female, for crying out loud......do it against someone your own size" ie male
 
TheCheese said:
Top D1 women's players would probably be around the level of a good 5.0 male.

It's just not the same as D1 men's where they can completely overpower you with their serve and groundstrokes, at least usually.
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I have had the opportunity to see 3 of the top players (Allie Will-1, Lauren Embree-9, Joanna Mather-19) in D1 women's this year, a year that I would categorize the D1 field a little weak. These are technically 6.0-6.5 female players. I can't see any 5.0C players in north Florida being able to play with them. The only guys that could and would are former or current Gator men.

The style is quite different between the three players. Realistically, Mather would be the toughest for a guy to beat. She hits lasers and has an absolutely devastating backhand. Embree, on the other hand is just super quick and anticipates every shot. Google her match from the NCAA championship last year against Stanford. No 5.0 player is going to overpower her if Mallory Burdette was unable to.
 
floridatennisdude said:
I have had the opportunity to see 3 of the top players (Allie Will-1, Lauren Embree-9, Joanna Mather-19) in D1 women's this year, a year that I would categorize the D1 field a little weak. These are technically 6.0-6.5 female players. I can't see any 5.0C players in north Florida being able to play with them. The only guys that could and would are former or current Gator men.

The style is quite different between the three players. Realistically, Mather would be the toughest for a guy to beat. She hits lasers and has an absolutely devastating backhand. Embree, on the other hand is just super quick and anticipates every shot. Google her match from the NCAA championship last year against Stanford. No 5.0 player is going to overpower her if Mallory Burdette was unable to.
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Not doubting what you see up close and personal......

but...

How do you come to the conclusion that.....if 'Mallory Burdette was unable to'....then no 5.0 male could??? Just curious how this general statement holds true in alot of cases
 
Loose Cannon said:
Agreed.....If you a re a singles player, you should be able to smack them silly. Their Groundies just arent that scary to me. But even then.....when you are beting a female rated higher than you.....you still get that 'Oh, you're doing that against a female, for crying out loud......do it against someone your own size" ie male
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Ya, I caught a lot of flack when playing mixed one season at 8.0 because apparently I wasn't strong enough to pair with 4.0 girls and that's why we kept losing matches. What's funny is every 4.0 girl I played against on the team couldn't beat me. I had one girl who I thought was really good at court coverage that during our practice matches (singles) I would dictate the points so as to help her advance her game and make her learn to play the points/shots she used to get beat with. Naturally the matches would end in set tiebreaks or close 7-5 or 5-7 splits with me closing out the match to win it with the exception to a couple where I set up the match just right but she capitalized really well in the end. Eventually she got to the point where her thought was that we were pretty close in ability and that again, I wasn't playing well enough in league matches. That's about the time she got the breadstick and begal wakeup call one day, after which she wondered how that match went so quickly when our others were such extended slug feasts. I never told her because I didn't want to hurt her feelings, but come on... it's not just luck.

Point is, I get run around technically and take lessons from a 5.0 ranked girl, so that 1.0+ level margin is almost a given for the opposite sex unless they're playing down or are really strong pushers. But in the end, play them anyway. I'd rather lose and be challenged by the process than to win comfortably and not advance my skill.
 
btw i am just about the best 3.5 in my town (i am about mid 4.0 with a month of practice 4.5). there isn't a 4.0 womens league. but there is a couple 4.5 women that rolled threw the 4.0 womens league and get moved up to 4.5. i played 1 of them once.

she hits hard shots and she did beat me like 6-3 6-4 but she was certainly missing enough to where i felt on a good day i could beat her. my shoulder was hurting me that day so i couldn't really serve hard.

it was similar to playing a good 14 year old jr i felt (though she hit particularly hard) i still would have advantages in winning free points on my serve and her serve was rather attack-able. so in theory i would get the first whack at all of her service points and on my serve i could win by making the 114 bombs. also though she was ok at putting away the short balls it certainly wasn't like playing a really good player that i have just no chance.

i have played a people in the 4.0 league and i would say she was playing about at a 4.0 level . (was on a team last year i would beat a 4.0 (who went 3-3 in the league, i lost both my matches) the difference being she hit a rather hard and consistent for the 4.0 mens level.

btw i also played the 5th singles for the local d-1 college a couple years ago when i wasn't as good. she hit really hard and served ok. but she missed enough to where i though she was playing good 4.5 to 5.0 (for men). also they have a practice player who i am 100 percent sure i would beat and i am pretty sure the 4.5 women i played would beat.
 
The thing to remember is that their rating (if computer generated) is based on their win/loss results. I have run into several people whom I can beat easily but their rating is higher than mine. Rating doesn't really mean anything besides to give you an idea of the average ability of a player. However, the key aspect to remember is that the rating doesn't always depict that the person can play better or poorer than what that rating depicts. Another aspect to remember is that people you end up playing can or could not mesh well with your style of play and ability. While a good player can make adjustments to their game to win a match, sometimes it's more enjoyable to win a match on your own terms when things just seem to mesh well. Like you said, you had a bad day against that girl that you played. Technically speaking if you were a 3.5 and she was a 4.5, she should have beat you 6-1 6-1 or better. The fact that it was only a 4 and 3 match means that you lost your serve a couple of times and I bet those breaks weren't exactly 0-40 game wins either. So, play her and every other 4.5 girl you run into and play the best you can without worrying. Look at it this way, if you can beat those players, that means you're getting better and your 3.5 rating is bs and incorrect from an ability standpoint.
 
SwankPeRFection said:
The thing to remember is that their rating (if computer generated) is based on their win/loss results. I have run into several people whom I can beat easily but their rating is higher than mine. Rating doesn't really mean anything besides to give you an idea of the average ability of a player. However, the key aspect to remember is that the rating doesn't always depict that the person can play better or poorer than what that rating depicts. Another aspect to remember is that people you end up playing can or could not mesh well with your style of play and ability. While a good player can make adjustments to their game to win a match, sometimes it's more enjoyable to win a match on your own terms when things just seem to mesh well. Like you said, you had a bad day against that girl that you played. Technically speaking if you were a 3.5 and she was a 4.5, she should have beat you 6-1 6-1 or better. The fact that it was only a 4 and 3 match means that you lost your serve a couple of times and I bet those breaks weren't exactly 0-40 game wins either. So, play her and every other 4.5 girl you run into and play the best you can without worrying. Look at it this way, if you can beat those players, that means you're getting better and your 3.5 rating is bs and incorrect from an ability standpoint.
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right, based on the fact that i am a better singles player than 80 percent of the the people in the local 4.0 league id say i consider myself about a 4.0. i started playing at 3.5 (3 years ago) because at the time a few of best 3.5 could beat me i got better and think i am playing about mid level 4.0 now. though like i said because i do a lot of the things well it wouldn't take me that long to get to 4.5, with my skills. but i need more matchplay on that level
 
josofo said:
right, based on the fact that i am a better singles player than 80 percent of the the people in the local 4.0 league id say i consider myself about a 4.0. i started playing at 3.5 (3 years ago) because at the time a few of best 3.5 could beat me i got better and think i am playing about mid level 4.0 now. though like i said because i do a lot of the things well it wouldn't take me that long to get to 4.5, with my skills. but i need more matchplay on that level
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You may think not, but offically, it would take you a year (since ratings don't change but once a year) to move from 3.5 to 4.0 and then another year to 4.5 by the book. If your official rating is 3.5, you can't play on a 4.5 team to move up quicker, you have to play 4.0 for a while and you must win remarkably well (as in all your matches by a good margin in score) to be pushed to 4.5 the following year.

I know because this is basically the bs I'm going through now and it's boring as heck. I'm getting more enjoyment out of competative social matches than the league matches where you depend upon captains to make the lineup, which doesn't always play out the best ways.
 
IMO there is something close to a rating level of difference in the genders, all other details being equal. Look at other sports. Strength and endurance aren't everything in tennis, but they are very significant and the male will typically have a meaningful edge in those areas. If general playing knowledge and stroke production are about the same, these will almost always make the difference. From my experience, a strong 4.0 man will usually beat a strong 4.5 woman the same way a D-1 male basketball player will typically beat a D-1 female basketball player. Strength, power, speed, quickness, agility, and general athleticism aren't everything, but they are something, and something significant.
 
SwankPeRFection said:
You may think not, but offically, it would take you a year (since ratings don't change but once a year) to move from 3.5 to 4.0 and then another year to 4.5 by the book. If your official rating is 3.5, you can't play on a 4.5 team to move up quicker, you have to play 4.0 for a while and you must win remarkably well (as in all your matches by a good margin in score) to be pushed to 4.5 the following year.

I know because this is basically the bs I'm going through now and it's boring as heck. I'm getting more enjoyment out of competative social matches than the league matches where you depend upon captains to make the lineup, which doesn't always play out the best ways.
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I'd probally just start at 4.0 if I could do all over again this is my 4th year at 3.5 . I think I would be a better if I started at 4.0 . I played a year at jr college so I should of self rated at 4.0 at the time
 
AtomicForehand said:
Just another one of Loose Cannon's dooshy sexist rants.
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Not a sexist rant.....it was a legit question.....that alot of people agreed with......



A Male is .75 to 1 whole point ahead of their female counter parts,


if you disagree for some reason.....please explain. Or as the thread instructs....a simple fact or fiction will suffice. Moaning about a thread instead of ignoring or answering the question proposed, is counter productive
 
Loose Cannon said:
Not a sexist rant.....it was a legit question.....that alot of people agreed with......



A Male is .75 to 1 whole point ahead of their female counter parts,


if you disagree for some reason.....please explain. Or as the thread instructs....a simple fact or fiction will suffice. Moaning about a thread instead of ignoring or answering the question proposed, is counter productive
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I don't know why I bother, but for some reason I can't help myself, so I will try again...

Pretty much everyone agrees that a male is .75 to 1 point ahead of their female counter parts, using the current NTRP system.

But this thread, and another related one, degenerated into a bunch of misogynistic ranting about how women can't compete with men. For whatever reason, some people cannot imagine a different rating scale where men and women are graded based on pure playing ability, so that a man and woman with the same rating are truly at the same playing level. For those lacking imagination, just think what we would have if USTA decided tomorrow to just deduct 1 point from the rating of every single woman. So a woman who was 5.0 yesterday is suddenly just a 4.0 tomorrow. This woman would compete quite well against a 4.0 man.
 
OrangePower said:
I don't know why I bother, but for some reason I can't help myself, so I will try again...

Pretty much everyone agrees that a male is .75 to 1 point ahead of their female counter parts, using the current NTRP system.

But this thread, and another related one, degenerated into a bunch of misogynistic ranting about how women can't compete with men. For whatever reason, some people cannot imagine a different rating scale where men and women are graded based on pure playing ability, so that a man and woman with the same rating are truly at the same playing level. For those lacking imagination, just think what we would have if USTA decided tomorrow to just deduct 1 point from the rating of every single woman. So a woman who was 5.0 yesterday is suddenly just a 4.0 tomorrow. This woman would compete quite well against a 4.0 man.
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Im aware of that.....and apparently you arent aware of the fact that is not the question I posed......nor anything to do some under the radar system that some folks use in some parts......


Like I said....that new rating system if tailor made for women who want to feel as they are worthy competition......

All that you wrote tells me.....'We will devise a way where a 4.5 woman is playing a 3.5 man' and the results will be interesting.......due to their equal talent levels........or A 4.0 MAN VS 5.0 WOMAN. Its circus tennis.

Do I have to like it??? hahahahah......no need for anyone to get bent out of shape
 
storypeddler said:
IMO there is something close to a rating level of difference in the genders, all other details being equal. Look at other sports. Strength and endurance aren't everything in tennis, but they are very significant and the male will typically have a meaningful edge in those areas. If general playing knowledge and stroke production are about the same, these will almost always make the difference. From my experience, a strong 4.0 man will usually beat a strong 4.5 woman the same way a D-1 male basketball player will typically beat a D-1 female basketball player. Strength, power, speed, quickness, agility, and general athleticism aren't everything, but they are something, and something significant.
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In basketball good jr college teams can beat pro women's teams. Tennis is more of a skill sport than basketball so women can compete at a higher level
 
Why is it circus tennis? Ratings are an arbitrary number. Tencap just creates a different set of arbitrary numbers, you could do the same thing with NTRP if you combined the mens and womens divisions and re-rated everyone.
 
Cindysphinx said:
What I want to know is why so many men care if they can beat a woman in tennis. Does it do something for fragile male egos to declare, "I'm a 3.5 man, and I could beat a 4.0 woman in singles"?
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It's the product of a matriarchal culture and the men you hang with Cindy. Personally, I love women who can beat me on the court and then jump in the sack with.
 
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