Favorite Twisted String-
- Thread starter JOSHL
- Start date
dr. godmode
Professional
I've only ever tried Snakebite so there
JOSHL
Hall of Fame
Very interested in this string.
fullwesternforehand
Rookie
Genesis twisted razor> Solinco barb wire > Golden set snakebite
dr. godmode
Professional
Hey man, Golden Set has absolutely no playability drop off.
Because it has no playability to begin with.
LOBALOT
Semi-Pro
Right, Cyclone is Gear Shaped and not twisted. Cyclone Tour is Gear Shaped and Twisted.
Unforced Terrors
New User
Does anyone else feel like the twisted strings lose playability faster than others?
LOBALOT
Semi-Pro
I am not sure about the string being twisted or if most softer string is shaped but I for sure feel they lose playability pretty quickly. I also string CT very low (close to the edge of playability) so it doesn't take much to push it over the edge. Right now one of my racquets is at about 6 hours of play. I play tonight. I plan to give it a shot in the hope I can get some further life out of it. However, I expect that I will be grabbing another racquet with fresh string during warm up.
LOBALOT
Semi-Pro
I just got home. I had a blast as always. What can be a better way to end the week than Friday night tennis and festivities with great friends at the club after? Perhaps because it is a bit colder the string played fine for the entire match. I could tell it was not at it's best but was playable. So that is 8 hours on this set of string.
spinerella
New User
So, anyone try Wilson Revolve Twist yet? Curious to know if its any good, as I was not impressed with Revolve Spin.
spinerella
New User
I've only tried Tornado on 16g and 18g. It feels very crisp and powerful with decent spin. It reminded me of a lower quality Luxilon Alu Power Rough, but Tornado has less spin. The 18g has more spin, but less durability than the 16g.
IMHO, as it ages, it gains more power and stiffness and loses it spin potential.
1HBHfanatic
Hall of Fame
I recently strung w.revolve.twist on a 16/19 racquet
im very familiar with w.revolve and w.revolve.spin
w.revolve.twist is a very aggressively twisted string, but it was fairly easy to string
it slid very well on each other when fanning the string, no major impact on my fingers after
hope it playes well
spinerella
New User
please report back and give us the details on how Wilson Revolve Twist plays
kaiser
Semi-Pro
And??? How did it play?
1HBHfanatic
Hall of Fame
its was a clients racquet, I strung up for him/her
first and only time ive seen this string come through
LocNetMonster
Semi-Pro
Played with YTek's Octo-Twist for the first time ever tonight. I had it in the mains and @TierOneSportsOfficial 19g Ghost Wire in the crosses with a reference tension at 40#. I sat here for the last 20 minutes trying to figure out how to describe the way this hits and I can't. Basically, when the racquet hit the ball, it makes a noise, but I felt absolutely no impact between the ball and strings. The set up totally shined at the net. It seemed like I could not hit a bad volley if I tried. I have a set of @Mayami Strings Official Big Twist on the way hopefully this week. I can't wait to test them.
brownbearfalling
Hall of Fame
Pros pro devil spin is the roughest twisted string I have played. Like all PP string though it doesn’t hold tension well. I’ve played signum tornado and revolve twist. Both lose texture once the string has been tensioned. Both have nice aesthetics once installed.
g4driver
Hall of Fame
Been using Volkl Cyclone Tour (VCT) 1.30mm since the summer of 2014. Fact: I string more USTA rated 4.5 men's frames with VCT 1.30mm than any other string. I don't advertise or look for stringing business. But when a USTA 4.5 guy texts me (after getting my number from another 4.5/5.0 player) and asks me for a string recommendation, I ask them for 3 frames, telling them there will be no charge for strings or labor for the first three frames.
Then ask the player four questions:
1) history of tennis elbow or shoulder issues
2) how quickly they break strings
3) string and tension they are currently using
4) do they have a color of string they hate or prefer not using
Then string three frames with:
1) Lux Alu Power 1.25mm (grey)
2) Solinco Hyper G 1.25mm or Solinco Revolution 1.25mm (if they hate green, I go with Revolution. If they hate Blue, I go with Hyper G)
3) Volkl Cyclone Tour 1.30mm (not 1.25mm because it is awful at tension maintenance)
I don't tell them anything about any of the strings. Nada. They don't get the cost of the string or the name of the string. Simply give them the strung frames back and ask them to tell me which when they like better. I DO NOT charge them for the first three frames strung or the strings. Yep, I eat the cost of the strings for at least 3 frames. When they pick a frame they like best, I cut out the strings from the two frames they didn't pick and then restring them with the string they picked. I get $30 in labor to string five frames, and I eat the cost of the strings in at least three of those five frames.
If they like one of the three but want the tension, changed, I cut out the strings in all three frames, and change the tension and charge them only for two frames. I have had two 4.5 men pick Revolution, one pick Hyper G, and the rest have picked Cyclone Tour, a few have said, give me the cheapest ones. Funny, not one has picked Lux Alu Power. I have had two players use my free deal and not use me to string the other free frames. Their choice. But the ones that have come back are loyal clients who give me referrals and that is the best feedback I can get.
I can provide a list of 4.5 men who use VCT if any wants to PM me. I am not sponsored by Volkl or any string manufacturer. VCT 1.30mm, when purchased by the reel, is a deal. One guy as a 4.5 rated brother in LA. He asked me to send him the best price I can get on a reel of VCT and I told him how to do it. I pay less than $100 a reel for VCT including shipping. Not sure why poly strings and Natural Gut in the US are so darn expensive, but they are expensive in the US. Multis are often cheaper in the US, but polys and NG are more expensive. I am certain there is a better string out there for many 4.0 and 4.5 men, but I haven't found it.
Then ask the player four questions:
1) history of tennis elbow or shoulder issues
2) how quickly they break strings
3) string and tension they are currently using
4) do they have a color of string they hate or prefer not using
Then string three frames with:
1) Lux Alu Power 1.25mm (grey)
2) Solinco Hyper G 1.25mm or Solinco Revolution 1.25mm (if they hate green, I go with Revolution. If they hate Blue, I go with Hyper G)
3) Volkl Cyclone Tour 1.30mm (not 1.25mm because it is awful at tension maintenance)
I don't tell them anything about any of the strings. Nada. They don't get the cost of the string or the name of the string. Simply give them the strung frames back and ask them to tell me which when they like better. I DO NOT charge them for the first three frames strung or the strings. Yep, I eat the cost of the strings for at least 3 frames. When they pick a frame they like best, I cut out the strings from the two frames they didn't pick and then restring them with the string they picked. I get $30 in labor to string five frames, and I eat the cost of the strings in at least three of those five frames.
If they like one of the three but want the tension, changed, I cut out the strings in all three frames, and change the tension and charge them only for two frames. I have had two 4.5 men pick Revolution, one pick Hyper G, and the rest have picked Cyclone Tour, a few have said, give me the cheapest ones. Funny, not one has picked Lux Alu Power. I have had two players use my free deal and not use me to string the other free frames. Their choice. But the ones that have come back are loyal clients who give me referrals and that is the best feedback I can get.
I can provide a list of 4.5 men who use VCT if any wants to PM me. I am not sponsored by Volkl or any string manufacturer. VCT 1.30mm, when purchased by the reel, is a deal. One guy as a 4.5 rated brother in LA. He asked me to send him the best price I can get on a reel of VCT and I told him how to do it. I pay less than $100 a reel for VCT including shipping. Not sure why poly strings and Natural Gut in the US are so darn expensive, but they are expensive in the US. Multis are often cheaper in the US, but polys and NG are more expensive. I am certain there is a better string out there for many 4.0 and 4.5 men, but I haven't found it.
LOBALOT
Semi-Pro
I agree RE: Volkl Cyclone Tour being a great string.
I know 3.5 players that hit with it and it performs well for them. I feel if a player lacks arm issues and can leverage the spin and ball pocketing that even 3.5 players can benefit from the string. It is also a pretty cheap string.
I feel if a player strings their own racquets it is even more of a no brainer to try.
I know 3.5 players that hit with it and it performs well for them. I feel if a player lacks arm issues and can leverage the spin and ball pocketing that even 3.5 players can benefit from the string. It is also a pretty cheap string.
I feel if a player strings their own racquets it is even more of a no brainer to try.
g4driver
Hall of Fame
Anthracite (Grey) or red hit the same to me. I have one guy who likes the red, the rest choose grey. But only buy VCT in 1.30mm and don't even think about buying 1.25mm or thinner. The 1.30mm last 4 to 5X longer than 1.25mm. 1.30mm VCT plays like most either 1.25 polys.
I have warned people on this website not to purchase the VCT in 1.25mm and most people talk about terrible tension mx, yet they never mention which gauge they used.
Yet a dozen 4.5 USTA rated men play with the VCT 1.30mm with no issue. Steve Cohen beat a USTA Rated 5.0 who was allowed to play under his old 4.5C in straight sets at 4.5 Sectionals about two years ago. I have posted pics of that match on this forum and it is still in the USTA records. Cohen uses a leaded up 13 oz Pure Control Tour 16x20 frame with VCT @50 lbs mains and crosses. Cohen plays with VCT till in breaks and that takes him about 3 months with 3 frames. Another 4.5 sends me 3 Pure Drive frames a month as he breaks it quickly. He has five Pure Drives all strung with VCT 1.30mm.
I string the Pure Control Tour 16x20 and Pure Strike 16x19 frames one piece with crosses down
String Pure Drives, Pure Strike 18x20, APD, and Pure Aeros two piece , along with 98% of the frames I get two piece. Yonex EZone 98 and Ai 98 are easily strung one piece as mains tie at the top. .
If mains end at the top, I will one piece string. If mains end at the bottom, I will two piece string.
I'm a poorboi right now so cheap strings have been where it's at but honestly once I tinkered with tension enough I love pros pro hexaspin twist as a main with a smooth poly cross (in this case intense heat).
I find myself restringing due to lack of snapback after about 10-14 days hitting everyday (sometimes closer to 7 if I'm not alternating racquets or hit for 6+ hrs one day). But that's more to protect my arm than any major change in playability.
I find myself restringing due to lack of snapback after about 10-14 days hitting everyday (sometimes closer to 7 if I'm not alternating racquets or hit for 6+ hrs one day). But that's more to protect my arm than any major change in playability.
g4driver
Hall of Fame
@chic
Unless you are 4.5+ rated USTA equivalent player who snaps 1.30mm poly quicker than a dozen plus other 4.5 men I string for, why not try VCT 1.30mm?
At $9.99 a pack MSRP you can try it once for less than $10.
I find it comical that these actual USTA rated 4.5 guys can play with a string for a month to 3 months, not hurt their elbows or shoulders, but many lower level players on this TW forum (3.0 to 4.0) complain about lack of snapback, tension loss and the inability to control the ball with the same string the 4.5 guys I string for have no issue.
All 4.5 guys who use VCT 1.30 mm.. Cohen, Estes, Loesch, Carmola, SeChrist, Sinclair, Hawfner, Warzynski off the top of my head.
Unless you are 4.5+ rated USTA equivalent player who snaps 1.30mm poly quicker than a dozen plus other 4.5 men I string for, why not try VCT 1.30mm?
At $9.99 a pack MSRP you can try it once for less than $10.
I find it comical that these actual USTA rated 4.5 guys can play with a string for a month to 3 months, not hurt their elbows or shoulders, but many lower level players on this TW forum (3.0 to 4.0) complain about lack of snapback, tension loss and the inability to control the ball with the same string the 4.5 guys I string for have no issue.
All 4.5 guys who use VCT 1.30 mm.. Cohen, Estes, Loesch, Carmola, SeChrist, Sinclair, Hawfner, Warzynski off the top of my head.
@g4driver sure, but under that theory why not just have you're 4.5 guys play with my pros pro strings for $30 a reel? Because if we're being honest form trumps string no matter what.
It may more be the low tensions I'm hitting at, but when my strings get too old (3ish weeks daily 4+ hrs of play) I can't drive the same depth I'm used to and end up leaving sitters, especially off heavy serves. The arm protection is just proactive bc polys do transfer more shock to the arm when they stop snapping back. Also moving my mains back in place is annoying.
Does the fact that I was probably 4.5 in college before I took 7 years off change the validity of my opinions
?
It may more be the low tensions I'm hitting at, but when my strings get too old (3ish weeks daily 4+ hrs of play) I can't drive the same depth I'm used to and end up leaving sitters, especially off heavy serves. The arm protection is just proactive bc polys do transfer more shock to the arm when they stop snapping back. Also moving my mains back in place is annoying.
Does the fact that I was probably 4.5 in college before I took 7 years off change the validity of my opinions
?
g4driver
Hall of Fame
@chic
Most of these guys were 5.0 guys in college, not probably 5.0. They have found their way back to 4.5. You string your own frames which saves you money and allows you to try strings for the cost of strings and the opportunity cost of your time. Have your tried VCT 1.30mm? If not, how can you have a valid opinion of it? You stated your Pro's Pro $30 a reel Hexapsin Twist requires you to restring "about 10-14 days hitting everyday (sometimes closer to 7 if not alternating racquets or hit for 6+ hrs one day.)".
I have no experience with your string of choice but have no intention of ordering something so I can try to save a client $4 per frame that requires the client to restring every two weeks like you. Been down that road and my 10+ years of stringing gets me back to a select few polys that I stock. I have plenty of polys that clients don't like. Tire One FireWire 1.30mm is one such string. I had several players try it. No one yet has asked for it again. My clients don't want to pay $15 labor per frame if that $30 reel means restringing bi-monthly. Labor costs are a factor for those who don't string for themselves.
I found a $6 per frame string that a two dozen-plus 4.0 players are happy with. For the 4.5 guys, it doesn't require restringing their frames like many polys, it is still ridiculously inexpensive for the amount of hours they get out of it and they ask for it.
Most of these guys were 5.0 guys in college, not probably 5.0. They have found their way back to 4.5. You string your own frames which saves you money and allows you to try strings for the cost of strings and the opportunity cost of your time. Have your tried VCT 1.30mm? If not, how can you have a valid opinion of it? You stated your Pro's Pro $30 a reel Hexapsin Twist requires you to restring "about 10-14 days hitting everyday (sometimes closer to 7 if not alternating racquets or hit for 6+ hrs one day.)".
I have no experience with your string of choice but have no intention of ordering something so I can try to save a client $4 per frame that requires the client to restring every two weeks like you. Been down that road and my 10+ years of stringing gets me back to a select few polys that I stock. I have plenty of polys that clients don't like. Tire One FireWire 1.30mm is one such string. I had several players try it. No one yet has asked for it again. My clients don't want to pay $15 labor per frame if that $30 reel means restringing bi-monthly. Labor costs are a factor for those who don't string for themselves.
I found a $6 per frame string that a two dozen-plus 4.0 players are happy with. For the 4.5 guys, it doesn't require restringing their frames like many polys, it is still ridiculously inexpensive for the amount of hours they get out of it and they ask for it.
Form doesn't trump strings at all costs. If that were true, polys, multis and natural guy wouldn't exist. Pros would play with 1.30 mm Kevlar and restring their frames once a month or just use synthetic gut like Jim Courier. Balance.. that is what most tennis players seek in strings. VCT 1.30 gives many rec 3.5 to 4.5 players they balance they seek. Hope you find a string you truly like that gives you what you want. No hard feeling at all. Just giving some readers including you my experience as a stringer and a player. Solinco Revolution 1.25 mm is slightly more expensive but also works well for some 4.5 guys.
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g4driver
Hall of Fame
Try a pack of 1.30mm VCT and a pack of 1.20 VCT and you will find the truth. That is one stat that doesn't translate to the court.
I haven't played tour, I used to love cyclone but was snapping it every month, at least in college.
Most reviews I've seen of tour say it loses tension fairly fast (granted the reviews I found were not on 1.30mm so that could be the difference), do the guys you string for play with one frame till it breaks? I ask because I'm curious if they've done a side by side of the playability of the freshly strung frame to one they've had for a month. Most of the people I string for will play with whatever string they buy, till it breaks, and never notice the difference (pretty much all 4.0 and 4.5 guys).
Also as you mention, labor cost matters. I would deal with older polys if I was paying $10 for strings and $15 for labor every time. Instead I pay <$3 for strings every time and 0 for labor. I can afford to keep fresher strings that way and fresh pros pro strings feel much nicer than 2-3 month old RPM team anyway (the only comparison I have since it's what I strung my racquets with when I started back out).
Most reviews I've seen of tour say it loses tension fairly fast (granted the reviews I found were not on 1.30mm so that could be the difference), do the guys you string for play with one frame till it breaks? I ask because I'm curious if they've done a side by side of the playability of the freshly strung frame to one they've had for a month. Most of the people I string for will play with whatever string they buy, till it breaks, and never notice the difference (pretty much all 4.0 and 4.5 guys).
Also as you mention, labor cost matters. I would deal with older polys if I was paying $10 for strings and $15 for labor every time. Instead I pay <$3 for strings every time and 0 for labor. I can afford to keep fresher strings that way and fresh pros pro strings feel much nicer than 2-3 month old RPM team anyway (the only comparison I have since it's what I strung my racquets with when I started back out).
g4driver
Hall of Fame
VCT 1.25mm is literally like a different string than VCT 1.30mm. I have never seen a string behave so radically different for being .05mm thinner, so that is why I don't stock or recommend the 1.25mm version of VCT. VCT cost me $6 a full bed which is what I charge to my clients. It is $10 a pack, but by the reel $100/16.5 = $6.06
Most of my guys have 3 frames and either use all three frames or use two frames and leaving them with one spare. Several guys have 4 or 5 frames. Cohen has three frames a 13 oz Pure Control Tour (16x20) pattern. He gets a month out of each frame and plays until breakage. When they break one, I get a text. Estes waits till he breaks 2 frames but he has five Pure Drives. Shelly (former 5.0) has four Ai 98's and he uses Hyper G mains 1.30mm/Head Hawk crosses 1.25mm. 52M/50X. He always breaks the Hyper G. Wish it came in 1.35mm honestly. He is the fastest string breaker I string for. Never seen him hit a flat ball. Carmola uses four PrinceTextreme Warrior 100 (16x18) and has had elbow issues. VCT 1.30 gives him no elbow issues. He was using Head Hawk 1.30mm when he first started using me a stringer. I got him away from Hawk 1.30mm as it is stiffer, more expensive and gave him TE. These are all former college players who have kids and don't like paying for stringing fees. Shelly picked the Hyper G / Hawk hybrid over VCT even though it cost him $3 more per frame.
I only stock Cyclone and Cyclone Tour in 1.30mm. Hyper G and Revolution in both 1.30mm and 1.25mm. Despite my suggestion to restring slightly more frequently, all but one of these 4.5 guys plays until breakage. By the way, I have a 4.5 teaching pro who used RPM Blast. It was expensive at $18 a pack. I got her to switch to VCT 1.30 since I string her frames pro bono. She teaches a lot of at risk kids and low-income clients. If she can teach for near nothing, I am not charging her for strings/labor or replacing grommets/bumper guards on her frames, unless she wanted to provide the $18 per pack RPM Blast. Since I was giving her free strings and free labor, I asked her to try VCT since it saved me money. She tried it, and loved it and hasn't looked back. She still tries to pay me for the strings, but I won't accept her payment. This is my way to give back a little.
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@g4driver completely by coincidence I'm stringing some 1.30 vct for a friend in a hybrid setup today. I have a hard time believing it holds tension particularly well (unless you're prestretching it?), but some stuff is just different on the stringer so I'll still try it sometime.
It's also extremely annoying to string on a dropweight -_- stuff is stretchier than some 18gauge strings
It's also extremely annoying to string on a dropweight -_- stuff is stretchier than some 18gauge strings
g4driver
Hall of Fame
I don't hybrid VCT 1.30 mm with anything and I never prestretch it. Hyoer G/ Head Hawk make a good combo but VCT works best as a full bed IMO.
All four outer strings (strings next to the frame) gets the "knot" button which increases tension by 10%, since they don't have strings on both side. The technique to add tension on those outer strings stops those outer strings from being looser compared to the interior stringbed. Always strung an my Alpha Ghost.
And VCT holds tension well enough for these guys to win like this. Works well for numerous 4.0 guys as well.
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Oh, I mean, for the present I'm set myself. Although, I appreciate the offer to talk to them. I'm just frustrated with how much it stretches on the stringer; I adjusted. Only reason I'm doing it hybrid is because I have a friend who won't take advice and keeps buying soft poly and multis to hybrid bc of a sore shoulder (hint hint: the issue isn't his equipment).
As an aside, do you do league? Wanna hit some in the (unlikely) event that I make it to SC champs this year before I move north? (My club just bled most of our best under 40 guys so who knows)
Edit: glossed over you having an alpha ghost. I'm extremely jealous and that would make any frustration I had stringing go away. I'm stringing with a klipper, and while it's a great machine when something stretches that much it's hard to move fast enough/ find the right the right place to loop around the drum consistently.
As an aside, do you do league? Wanna hit some in the (unlikely) event that I make it to SC champs this year before I move north? (My club just bled most of our best under 40 guys so who knows)
Edit: glossed over you having an alpha ghost. I'm extremely jealous and that would make any frustration I had stringing go away. I'm stringing with a klipper, and while it's a great machine when something stretches that much it's hard to move fast enough/ find the right the right place to loop around the drum consistently.
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g4driver
Hall of Fame
@chic
When you can pull the trigger, my .02 is get a used Babolat Star 5 or Sensor in great condition or a new Alpha Ghost 2. I wanted a used Star 5 but couldn't find one near me. You are still young (20-30s) so a stringer like that will last you a very long time. My Ghost paid for itself in less than a year @ $15 per frame. You will recoup the initial investment quickly.
I strung for years on a crank Alpha Apex 2 and wouldn't recommend it as it was constant repair battle with the crank. I could have spent $500 on a Wise but instead bought a Ghost. It has been over 3 years now with then Ghost and the difference is like riding a bike in the rain vs driving maintenance free car.
FWIW, both Cohen and Carmola have had TE and both play with VCT with no TE issues. That is one of the best things I can write about this string. Cohen's wife used a PD but it gave her TE also. I told him I can't hit with a PD as mine gave me TE back in 2010, but the Pure Aero with VCT gave me no issue. She tried my PA with VCT and bought one. No issues for her either.
Here's how i got a lot of business: I offered the free string demo to Cohen until he found a string setup he liked. Once he found VCT 1.30mm he was done. It has been about 3 years for him now and he has sent my cell to many 4.5 / 5.0 guys looking for a stringer. I string his frames, his wife's and his two daughters. Find one player with a bunch of connections and take care of that player. The referrals I have gotten from Cohen multiplied over and over. Hope this helps. And of course if you find you way to Charleston by all means look me up. I sent you a PM with my contact info.
When you can pull the trigger, my .02 is get a used Babolat Star 5 or Sensor in great condition or a new Alpha Ghost 2. I wanted a used Star 5 but couldn't find one near me. You are still young (20-30s) so a stringer like that will last you a very long time. My Ghost paid for itself in less than a year @ $15 per frame. You will recoup the initial investment quickly.
I strung for years on a crank Alpha Apex 2 and wouldn't recommend it as it was constant repair battle with the crank. I could have spent $500 on a Wise but instead bought a Ghost. It has been over 3 years now with then Ghost and the difference is like riding a bike in the rain vs driving maintenance free car.
FWIW, both Cohen and Carmola have had TE and both play with VCT with no TE issues. That is one of the best things I can write about this string. Cohen's wife used a PD but it gave her TE also. I told him I can't hit with a PD as mine gave me TE back in 2010, but the Pure Aero with VCT gave me no issue. She tried my PA with VCT and bought one. No issues for her either.
Here's how i got a lot of business: I offered the free string demo to Cohen until he found a string setup he liked. Once he found VCT 1.30mm he was done. It has been about 3 years for him now and he has sent my cell to many 4.5 / 5.0 guys looking for a stringer. I string his frames, his wife's and his two daughters. Find one player with a bunch of connections and take care of that player. The referrals I have gotten from Cohen multiplied over and over. Hope this helps. And of course if you find you way to Charleston by all means look me up. I sent you a PM with my contact info.
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megamind
Hall of Fame
So what you is telling me is that using Volkl Cyclone Tour is a guarantee to improving your NTRP rating by 0.5?
i am gonna order a reel right away!
ron schaap
Professional
True and did you try pros pro hex twist fullbed for more spin potential?
g4driver
Hall of Fame
Uh no. What I am telling you all the 3.0 to 4.0 men who bash VCT 1.3mm need to improve their game instead of bashing a string.
Plenty of lower rated players bash the same string five 4.5 men used to get bumped to 5.0. And several 4.0 guys used 1.30 VCT and stayed at 4.0
I know I tried it fb and hybrid initially and liked the hybrid more. Not sure any more if spin was the reason, or something else.
I'm curious why you think fb would have higher spin potential? My understanding is that low friction crosses with high friction/high launch angle mains was spinniest combo. I'm open to that being wrong, but don't understand the logic