Fed 11, Rafa 13, Stan 15 - who produced the higher level to stop Nole at RG?e
- Thread starter Hitman
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junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Thanks.
RS
Bionic Poster
Does Nadal beat him then?
Djokovic legs were gone from playing 3 days in a row and that can be seen primarily in his 1st serve percentages and quality of it, they declined heavily as the match went on
Stan was still superb though
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, that match was pretty pukka all the way through. Both guys hit some screamers.
goldengate14
Professional
Federer 2011.
2013 djokovic lost to a woeful Nadal who was on way back from injury. Nadal hit so many ufes that day yet Djokovic just choked.
2015 Djokovic again choked and hit short all day.
2011 djokovic was at his best and played his best level with confidence of being unbeaten all season but just lost to a better player who rolled bsck the years and reminded the world of what his best used to be. Djokovic hsd no answers. Massively significant match in that rivalry perhsps the most significant.
Djokovics record st the Fo since 2011 given Fedal were not the players they were is very underwhelming given his talent on clay. 5 rome titles inthink 3 madrid titles, he really has u underachieved in Paris.
Federer oth had clay peak Nadal to deal with every final he played except perhaps 2011.
2013 djokovic lost to a woeful Nadal who was on way back from injury. Nadal hit so many ufes that day yet Djokovic just choked.
2015 Djokovic again choked and hit short all day.
2011 djokovic was at his best and played his best level with confidence of being unbeaten all season but just lost to a better player who rolled bsck the years and reminded the world of what his best used to be. Djokovic hsd no answers. Massively significant match in that rivalry perhsps the most significant.
Djokovics record st the Fo since 2011 given Fedal were not the players they were is very underwhelming given his talent on clay. 5 rome titles inthink 3 madrid titles, he really has u underachieved in Paris.
Federer oth had clay peak Nadal to deal with every final he played except perhaps 2011.
RS
Bionic Poster
Djokovic hit 75 errors in this match compared to Nadal 44 errors according to stats in 5 set matches doesn't look like Nadal was spraying UE's.
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Federer breaking Novak at love when he was serving for the fourth set tells us really how strong Federer was in that match. Unfair to say he servebotted his way
The Big Foe fan
Hall of Fame
Fed 2011 was totally Unexpected especially given how nole dominated the rivalry in 2011 coming into that match & fed turning 30.
I want to say Federer, but ‘13 Nadal would whip both ‘11 Fed and ‘15 Wawrinka so I can’t look past him.
Honestly though, all 3 of those performances were excellent.. and if you put them side by side, actually better than the HC Slam losses Djokovic had during that period… what it tells us?
Honestly though, all 3 of those performances were excellent.. and if you put them side by side, actually better than the HC Slam losses Djokovic had during that period… what it tells us?
RS
Bionic Poster
If you judge it by UEs that is.
nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
I think its Wawrinka. Nadal in 2014 was higher level than Wawrinka in 2015. But that devil mode by Stan is scary.
Nadal_King
Hall of Fame
Nadal easily beats other 2
RaulRamirez
Legend
It's a good question, as all choices are reasonable. I didn't vote, as I'm torn, but am surprised that Stan hasn't gotten more votes so far.
In Roger's and Stan's cases, these were, possibly, the best matches they've ever played at RG. Nadal has too many to choose from, but his fifth set was incredible, of course.
I'm going to give a very tentative lean to Stan. He doesn't have the all-around games of Roger or Rafa, of course, but that day, he was just redlining. It's probably true that this was Novak's worst performance of the three (most tentative, as at times, the moment gets a little big even for Novak), but Stan was just cold-blooded that day.
In Roger's and Stan's cases, these were, possibly, the best matches they've ever played at RG. Nadal has too many to choose from, but his fifth set was incredible, of course.
I'm going to give a very tentative lean to Stan. He doesn't have the all-around games of Roger or Rafa, of course, but that day, he was just redlining. It's probably true that this was Novak's worst performance of the three (most tentative, as at times, the moment gets a little big even for Novak), but Stan was just cold-blooded that day.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
If they play one another 2013 RG Nadal wins easily over both. Based on that alone Nadal of course. There also aren't any opponents Federer 2011 or Wawrinka 2015 would be more certain/likely to win over, including probably not Djokovic, and definitely not a single player outside of Djokovic.
Biotic
Hall of Fame
That's why I said he brought the whole package. It's just that we would be seeing an entirely different match if the conditions didn't allow him such a huge advantage on serve from the get go.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
nadal on clay bro
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
I am honestly not sure what anyone not voting Nadal is basing that on exactly. If it is who is more likely to beat Djokovic, maybe I could see a case for either Federer or Wawrinka, given Wawrinka's big game match up success vs Djokovic. Even that is dubious at best though, when Djokovic's only win over Nadal at RG in a kazillion tries pre 2021 was the atrocious/not even real Nadal of RG 2015.
12 people voting Federer to only 21 for Nadal so far? Again I am curious what that is based upon, unless it is sentiment. One can't seriously think 2011 Federer would ever win if they played one another when he lost in 4 set to 2011 RG Nadal who was far worse than 2013 RG Nadal. And against the field 2013 Nadal wins everytime much more often than 2011 Federer too.
12 people voting Federer to only 21 for Nadal so far? Again I am curious what that is based upon, unless it is sentiment. One can't seriously think 2011 Federer would ever win if they played one another when he lost in 4 set to 2011 RG Nadal who was far worse than 2013 RG Nadal. And against the field 2013 Nadal wins everytime much more often than 2011 Federer too.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Isn't this thread just comparing their performances vs Djokovic? How is the rest any relevant?
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Sure, but there isn't a single person Federer 2011 or Wawrinka 2015 would do better against on average IMO, including Djokovic himself. Yes despite that technically the 2013 match was closer than both the 2015 and 2011 matches in the end. Any given year of Djokovic playing 10 times still wins fewer times vs Nadal than vs Federer or Wawrinka I believe. Djokovic in the the 2015 final imparticular was pretty mediocre too I also feel.
One thing that should be pointed out is Djokovic was EXTREMELY lucky to even be that close to winning the 2013 match. The stats favor Nadal by a landslide, you rarely see a person that outplayed nearly win. Even that same match played 10 times with the same level of play would almost never see Djokovic in a 5th set at all, let alone nearly win. I know anyone who saw the match would agree with me.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
That the clay field in big 3 era is actually strong and Nadal was a goddamn freak for dominating it like that?
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic fans vote Nadal, because Novak "should have" won - while Rafa played an unbelievable match!
For me; little doubt. It's Stan. He took the racquet firmly out of Novak's hands and administered fatal beatings in those three final sets. A few days earlier he beat Roger in straights. He was in tremendous form and his mental game was top notch.
Also; the "Nadal would beat Roger and Stan" argument is irrelevant. This about their level against Novak on those days.
I do think the discussion about Nadal “off clay” reaches farcical territory at times lol. Like if the guy still has 20 Slams and 36 masters, with these “off clay” deficiencies.. what happens on clay?
RS
Bionic Poster
I honestly thought you would say Djokovic but fair.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Gonzo_style
Hall of Fame
Nadal easily
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
The match quality was lower and less competitive than these 3 matches even if Nadal GOATed.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
For me, it was Stan as Djokovic was BOATing in 2015-16 and still could not beat Wawrinka that day who was on a high after finally beating Federer at a Slam. Wawrinka consistently outpowered Djokovic taking big cuts at the ball on the slower surface in a way that he couldn’t in other close matches on hard courts and made very few errors. He broke Djokovic’s will as he couldn’t believe Wawrinka was outhitting him and being more consistent than him - Djokovic didn’t have a Plan B and just submitted. That is the only match Djokovic lost in a Slam between 2015AO-2016FO when he won 5 of 6 Slams.
In 2013, Djokovic was more aggressive than Nadal and looked like he was going to win. Nadal amped up his aggression in an epic performance in the fifth set and Djokovic couldn’t hit through him. For me, Nadal was particularly great and outpowering Djokovic only in the fifth set, but not the whole match unlike Stan in 2015. That was also a lesser version of Djokovic than the same guy in 2015 when he was in his Novak Slam form - Djokovic made a lot more unforced errors hitting with less topspin than two years later.
I don’t have clear memories of the 2011 match while the other two are vivid in my memory. I personally don’t think Djokovic was as good on defense or serving in 2011 as he was in later years while he hit groundstrokes more aggressively. I am not one of those who thinks his peak was in 2011 as I watched him in person at IW the whole decade and he looked much better in 2015-16 than at any other time.
In 2013, Djokovic was more aggressive than Nadal and looked like he was going to win. Nadal amped up his aggression in an epic performance in the fifth set and Djokovic couldn’t hit through him. For me, Nadal was particularly great and outpowering Djokovic only in the fifth set, but not the whole match unlike Stan in 2015. That was also a lesser version of Djokovic than the same guy in 2015 when he was in his Novak Slam form - Djokovic made a lot more unforced errors hitting with less topspin than two years later.
I don’t have clear memories of the 2011 match while the other two are vivid in my memory. I personally don’t think Djokovic was as good on defense or serving in 2011 as he was in later years while he hit groundstrokes more aggressively. I am not one of those who thinks his peak was in 2011 as I watched him in person at IW the whole decade and he looked much better in 2015-16 than at any other time.
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nolefam_2024
Talk Tennis Guru
With Wawrinka 2014, there is no excuse even when Nolefams want to give it. He was purely dominated.
2013 Nadal Djokovic could have beaten. 2011 Federer definitely could have beaten. He just had 0 chance vs Wawrinka.
2013 Nadal Djokovic could have beaten. 2011 Federer definitely could have beaten. He just had 0 chance vs Wawrinka.
abmk
Bionic Poster
1. Djoko's defense was better in 2011 than in 2015 as was his aggression on groundstrokes. Serve was better in 15 along with slice/net play.
2. Nadal outplayed Djokovic in the first set of RG 2013 semi and rolled over him in the 3rd set.
Wawa played a meh first set in RG 15 final.
To sum it up, the propaganda is high with this arrogantly delusional Djokovic a**-kisser @socallefty
Seriously, the forum has become toxic due to such a large influx of delusionalities and propaganda of so many Djokovic fans. Its sick.
Get well soon, you sickos !!!!!!!!!
Edit: oh and yeah, Put 2015-16 djokovic in 11-12, he loses out on 2 slams out of the 5.
Wins AO 11, loses RG 11 to Fed/Nadal, wins Wim 11, loses USO 11 to Fed, wins AO 12, loses RG 12 to Nadal
Ends up with 3 out of 6.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
Federer hit higher highs but he most likely choke/be outclutched this one if the match went 5.
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NonP
Legend
Man why y'all ganging up on @Biotic? He's one of the few reasonable Djoker fans here, and to dis him for daring to suggest Novak might have choked away the '13 SF is just silly cuz that's what every devotee says about his fave player's close Ls. I mean what's the BFD?
Anyhoo the correct answer is '11 Bull. For the umpteenth time you can't whitewash the fact that '06 and '13 were the two weakest RG-winning versions of Nadal but Fed or Novak still couldn't take advantage in a best-of-5. And that 5th set of the '13 SF should tell you how useless these match-by-match comparisons can be. On paper a relatively lackluster Nadal who won "only" 60.9% of his games at RG should be vulnerable vs. botting Fed or confident Novak who'd end up with 59.0% at the same RG, but that's ignoring the 3rd gear Rafa could still fall back on with his back against the wall, as Novak painfully found out. Simply put neither Fedovic is beating Rafa at RG outside '09, '15 or '21.
And it's easy to say Stan with his howitzer BH and 61.1% of GW at '15 RG would fare better vs. '13 Rafa, but what makes you think this encounter would somehow turn out all that differently than their actual '17 final when Stan won only 55.8% in the '15 CC season (vs. a paltry 51.7% in '17, admittedly) and his 57.9% at '17 RG would've almost matched his '15 average (60.9%) with the same scoreline of his 1st final? Maybe he steals a set or even two, but the outcome would remain the same.
Yeah I wasn't impressed with Nole's form at '11 RG at all. If you asked me right after Rome I would've agreed Nole had a real shot, but judging by what I did see come Slam time I was thinking the extra "rest" from Fog's withdrawal might turn out to be a curse in disguise and that's exactly what happened. And of course Fed with his 41.8% of URS would be a tough nut to crack no matter what.
Anyhoo the correct answer is '11 Bull. For the umpteenth time you can't whitewash the fact that '06 and '13 were the two weakest RG-winning versions of Nadal but Fed or Novak still couldn't take advantage in a best-of-5. And that 5th set of the '13 SF should tell you how useless these match-by-match comparisons can be. On paper a relatively lackluster Nadal who won "only" 60.9% of his games at RG should be vulnerable vs. botting Fed or confident Novak who'd end up with 59.0% at the same RG, but that's ignoring the 3rd gear Rafa could still fall back on with his back against the wall, as Novak painfully found out. Simply put neither Fedovic is beating Rafa at RG outside '09, '15 or '21.
And it's easy to say Stan with his howitzer BH and 61.1% of GW at '15 RG would fare better vs. '13 Rafa, but what makes you think this encounter would somehow turn out all that differently than their actual '17 final when Stan won only 55.8% in the '15 CC season (vs. a paltry 51.7% in '17, admittedly) and his 57.9% at '17 RG would've almost matched his '15 average (60.9%) with the same scoreline of his 1st final? Maybe he steals a set or even two, but the outcome would remain the same.
Yeah I wasn't impressed with Nole's form at '11 RG at all. If you asked me right after Rome I would've agreed Nole had a real shot, but judging by what I did see come Slam time I was thinking the extra "rest" from Fog's withdrawal might turn out to be a curse in disguise and that's exactly what happened. And of course Fed with his 41.8% of URS would be a tough nut to crack no matter what.
Biotic
Hall of Fame
LOL, it's just a couple of nobodies lurking my every post. It's kinda flattering tbh. Half of em are firmly in my ignore cesspit anyway.
abmk
Bionic Poster
meh, you are too focussed on the numbers here instead of the progression of events.
13 - Djokovic got Nadal at Monte Carlo final, but was upset at Rome/Madrid both of which Nadal won albeit with some hiccups (Gulbis/Ferrer IIRC)
Nadal had a below par 1st 3 rounds at RG 13 by his standards, but was up and roaring by the time of the Nishi 4R match and the Wawa QF match.
Yes 15 wawa would fare better than 17 RG final wawa vs 13 RG nadal did because 17 wawa was coming up from a draining 5-setter vs Murray. He'd take a set is my guess. But he'd lose obviously.
Easy to say that about 11 RG Nadal now, but Nadal looked more vulnerable than ever before (lost Madrid/Rome to Djoko) and had got into a 5-setter vs Isner in 1st round. that set vs andujar was hilarious choking from Andujar after he got Nadal in that set. Obviously Nadal upped his level from 4th round onwards, but it sure as hell was going 5 sets vs fed in the final if fed had held up mentally. I mean you can't attribute put a missed dropshot by fed on 5-2, SP (by an inch or so) to nadal's good play, right?
nah, Djokovic was playing excellent at RG 11. One of his 3 best along with 13 and 16.
If you don't find his RG 11 form impressive, not sure what you'd say about 12/14 and 15 SF/F.
His BH DTL was not working well that day vs fed, maybe partly due to the break, but fed also mixed it up really well making him more error prone.
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Also that when you play ~30 slam finals, sometimes you get a bit unlucky at one slam and a bit luckier at another slam.
A great example is Rafa on hardcourt. Nadal reached 5 US Open finals and 4 Australian Open final. He happened to play tougher opponents at the AO and have less injury luck overall (e.g. 2014 or even 2018). So he has 4 US Open titles and 1 AO title.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
I think people are a bit too quick to see "2011" and jump to this conclusion
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
Yep, form over a year or even a tournament isn't constant. Worth remembering that Djokovic's AO16 errorfest vs Simon and the stunner vs Federer happened within a week of each other.
MrFlip
Professional
Without a doubt he would have. Nadal outside of RG is not different, but his level in RG finals is bar none, impossible to beat almost.
It still would have been a good match.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
I'd give Nadal a 55-45 edge. Back then he really how to raise his level when it counted.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Federer can only lose to a disinterested or out of form Djoker so yes.
