Fed 2004-09 vs Nole 2011-16 vs Nole 2018-23

[Neptune]

Fed 2004-09 (Fed1)
14 Slams
32 Big Titles
442-51(90%) Overall
44-23(66%) vs Top5(10%)
91-32(75%) vs Top10(21%)
10-12(45%) vs Elo>2300(2.3%)
42-25(63%) vs Elo>2200(9.5%)

Nole 2011-16 (Nole1)
11 Slams
40 Big Titles
427-50(90%) Overall
66-25(73%) vs Top5(15%)
140-34(80%) vs Top10(33%)
57-24(70%) vs Elo>2300(13%)
114-33(78%) vs Elo>2200(27%)

Nole 2018-23 (Nole2)
12 Slams
24 Big Titles
301-47(86%) Overall
37-16(70%) vs Top5(12%)
75-24(76%) vs Top10(25%)
10-7(59%) vs Elo>2300(3.3%)
28-13(68%) vs Elo>2200(9.3%)

ATP points: Nole1>Fed1>>Nole2
Opposition: Nole1>>Fed1>≈Nole2
win% vs tough opponents: Nole1>Nole2>Fed1

What is your comprehensive takeaways from the 3 remarkable 6-year-run?

 

[Neptune]

Rafa 2008-13 (If anyone curious)
10 Slams
28 Big Titles
406-62(87%) Overall
47-26(64%) vs Top5(12%)
93-40(70%) vs Top10(23%)
33-19(63%) vs Elo>2300(8.1%)
66-33(67%) vs Elo>2200(16%)

Pete 1993-98 (If anyone curious)
10 Slams
22 Big Titles
415-84(83%) Overall
34-13(72%) vs Top5(8.2%)
72-29(71%) vs Top10(17%)
6-3(67%) vs Elo>2300(1.5%)
26-15(63%) vs Elo>2200(6.3%)

2011-2016
Slam: Nole 11, Rafa 5, Fed 1, Murray 3
Big Title: Nole 40, Rafa 15, Fed 9, Murray 14
Points: Nole 78535, Rafa 44680, Fed 42810, Murray 47200
H2H: Nole-Rafa 19-7, Nole-Fed 17-9, Nole-Murr 20-8
Clearly one Giant and Big3

 

[Kralingen]

I already made this exact thread last month

 

[Neptune]

I already made this exact thread last month

You knew you only want to mislead users with your agenda

 

[UnforcedTerror]

All I'm thinking is how incredible for someone to have not one but two career runs that can be compared to Federer's best career run. TWO!

Even one makes you a top-tier legend and Djokovic had two Lmao. What mad man!

 

[Kralingen]

You knew you only want to mislead users with your agenda

quoting the OP from the thread:

Two 6 year periods, both representing the only time two players have won 12 Slams in 6 years, or 2 Slams per year. The pinnacle of Open Era dominance over the Tour in Grand Slams.

No man has ever won more Slams over any 6 year period than these two.

Djokovic 2018-23:

Spoiler

53-13
21-2 in Slams
2 Slams
2 Masters
4 titles
YE #1

54-12
2 Slams
2 Masters
4 Titles

41-6
1 Slam
2 Masters
4 titles
YE #1

55-7
3 Slams
1 Masters
5 titles
YE #1

42-7
1 Slam
1 Masters
1 YEC
5 Titles

45-5
3 Slams
1 Masters
5 Titles

12 Slams
9 Masters
27 Titles
1 YEC
3 YE #1
290-50

Federer 2004-2009:

Spoiler

74-6
3 Slams
3 Masters
1 YEC
11 Titles
YE #1

81-4
2 Slams
4 Masters
11 Titles
YE #1

92-5
3 Slams
4 Masters
12 Titles
1 YEC
YE #1

68-9
3 Slams
2 Masters
8 Titles
1 YEC
YE #1

66-15
1 Slam
0 Masters
4 Titles

61-12
2 Slams
2 Masters
4 Titles
YE #1

14 Slams
15 Masters
50 Titles
3 YEC
5 YE #1
442-51

Thoughts?

Edit: as requested below, adding 2011-16 Djokovic

Djokovic 2011-2016:

Spoiler

2011:
70-6
3 Slams
5 Masters
10 Titles
YE #1

2012:
75-12
1 Slam
3 Masters
6 Titles
YEC
YE #1

2013:
74-9
1 Slam
3 Masters
YEC
YE #1

2014:
61-8
1 Slam
4 Masters
YEC
YE #1

2015:
82-6
3 Slams
6 Masters
11 Titles
YEC
YE #1

2016:
65-9
2 Slams
4 Masters
7 Titles

11 Slams
25 Masters
48 Titles
4 YECs
4 YE #1s
427-50

Please point out where I mislead people or presented an agenda

 

[Neptune]

Djokovic's 2011-2016 era is more dominant than 2018-2023 despite having won one less Slam.

Why did he win one fewer Slam in that period compared to this 2018-23 period?

Which faced the stronger competition?

You knew well enough, ok, and it is not your only thread with same agenda.

 

[Phoenix*]

Imagine 2018-23 with W 2020, AO 2022 & USO 2020/2022.

 

[ChrisRF]

Djokovic's 2nd 6-year-span is hardly comparable, because due to 3 Slams and 14 Masters either not even played or him being banned it's effectively only like 4.5 years of big titles. Also the first half of 2018 was still part of his 1.5 years of injuries or general issues (Pepe Imaz etc.), and once he was disqualified (that's his own fault though).

That's why there are potential arguments for all 3 periods being the best (and Djokovic will likely make 2019-24 the better 6-year period than 2018-23).

 

[NatF]

Djokovic's second period being potentially his best in terms of results without Covid really underlines how poor this recent era has been.

 

[UnforcedTerror]

Imagine 2018-23 with W 2020, AO 2022 & USO 2020/2022.

 

[RS]

2004-2009 Fed in Djokovic's place 2018-2023 in slams?

 

[NoleFam]

Djokovic's second period being potentially his best in terms of results without Covid really underlines how poor this recent era has been.

How is it better? He won 16 more big titles and played 130 more matches in that period in his 20s.

 

[Neptune]

Djokovic's second period being potentially his best in terms of results without Covid really underlines how poor this recent era has been.

"what if", and ignore the Opposition stats in OP, you are better than that.

 

[Kralingen]

2004-2009 Fed in Djokovic's place 2018-2023 in slams?

04-18 AO: obvious W
04-18 RG: pretty clear L
04-18 WB: W but it would be close, tbf to Nadal and Del Potro
04-18 USO: obvious W

05-19 AO: obvious W
05-19 RG: close, I lean W considering their '19 match IRL
05-19 WB: obvious W
05-19 USO: obvious W

06-20 AO: obvious W
06-20 RG: depends on conditions, probably L
06-20 WB: not held
06-20 USO: obvious W

07-21 AO: obvious CYGS
07-21 RG: obvious CYGS
07-21 WB: obvious CYGS
07-21 USO: obvious CYGS

08-22 AO: obvious W even with mono
08-22 RG: I actually think he could win this lol
08-22 WB: obvious W
08-22 USO: obvious W

09-23 AO: obvious CYGS
09-23 RG: obvious CYGS
09-23 WB: obvious CYGS
09-23 USO: obvious CYGS

so that's two obvious NID CYGS, two more guaranteed 3 slam seasons of 19 and 22 which could very possibly be CYGS, and only 2 Slams ('18 and '20 RG) where he isn't the favourite

To be fair to Nadal and Djoko, I'd say '11-16 Novak and '08-13 Rafa would also completely dominate '18-23

 

[GoatNo1]

do the same thing for 1 year, 2 years, 4 years, 10 years and career

for nole:
1 year: 2015W - 2016RG
2 years: 2014W - 2016RG
10 years: 2014W - 2023WTF

 

[RS]

04-18 AO: obvious W
04-18 RG: pretty clear L
04-18 WB: W but it would be close, tbf to Nadal and Del Potro
04-18 USO: obvious W

05-19 AO: obvious W
05-19 RG: close, I lean W considering their '19 match IRL
05-19 WB: obvious W
05-19 USO: obvious W

06-20 AO: obvious W
06-20 RG: depends on conditions, probably L
06-20 WB: not held
06-20 USO: obvious W

07-21 AO: obvious CYGS
07-21 RG: obvious CYGS
07-21 WB: obvious CYGS
07-21 USO: obvious CYGS

08-22 AO: obvious W even with mono
08-22 RG: I actually think he could win this lol
08-22 WB: obvious W
08-22 USO: obvious W

09-23 AO: obvious CYGS
09-23 RG: obvious CYGS
09-23 WB: obvious CYGS
09-23 USO: obvious CYGS

so that's two obvious NID CYGS, two more guaranteed 3 slam seasons of 19 and 22 which could very possibly be CYGS, and only 2 Slams ('18 and '20 RG) where he isn't the favourite

To be fair to Nadal and Djoko, I'd say '11-16 Novak and '08-13 Rafa would also completely dominate '18-23

So if we kept Djokovic in probably like 2 more losses?

 

[NatF]

How is it better? He won 16 more big titles and played 130 more matches in that period in his 20s.

Potentially without covid I said. It's worse but would have possibly been a clear winner in terms of slams at least without covid.

 

[NoleFam]

Potentially without covid I said. It's worse but would have possibly been a clear winner in terms of slams at least without covid.

Everything is not black and white. The main breakdown is he was 12-7 in 2011-2016 in Slam finals. Great but not excellent because he left quite a few on the table in winnable matches. In 2018-2023, he was 12-3 in Slam finals. Overall, his mental toughness in finals was better regardless of some decline from his peak and regardless of some weaker opponents. So you want to blame it on a weak field when he made 4 more Slam finals in that period of 2011-2016 yet was winning less because he was mentally all over the place, not because the field was too tough to win more.

 

[NatF]

Everything is not black and white. The main breakdown is he was 12-7 in 2011-2016 in Slam finals. Great but not excellent because he left quite a few on the table in winnable matches. In 2018-2023, he was 12-3 in Slam finals. Overall, his mental toughness in finals was better regardless of some decline from his peak and regardless of some weaker opponents. So you want to blame it on a weak field when he made 4 more Slam finals in that period of 2011-2016 yet was winning less because he was mentally all over the place, not because the field was too tough to win more.

I agree he generally played up to the top of his abilities more often in the later period, however there's no denying he was under less pressure in those finals as well. Not interested in your mental gymnastics. No amount of mental strength is helping Djokovic win those FO finals versus Nadal, and I doubt he beats Stan (2015) either for example. You could cite those losses to Murray maybe? But I think conditions were the main factor at the USO and at Wimbledon he's not had back to back tough SF and F's since 2014 to compare...

 

[NoleFam]

I agree he generally played up to the top of his abilities more often in the later period, however there's no denying he was under less pressure in those finals as well. Not interested in your mental gymnastics. No amount of mental strength is helping Djokovic win those FO finals versus Nadal, and I doubt he beats Stan (2015) either for example. You could cite those losses to Murray maybe? But I think conditions were the main factor at the USO and at Wimbledon he's not had back to back tough SF and F's since 2014 to compare...

Under less pressure is your take. Do you think it was less pressure at 2019 Wimbledon? What about RG 2021? AO 2020? Wimbledon 2021 to tie the Slam record? I seriously doubt he felt less pressure in that one, especially, or the one to win a double career Slam. The huge one was USO 2021. He's never been under more pressure in a Slam final.

Never said anything about Nadal at RG and you can think whatever you want about 2015 RG (which was not one I was talking about) but he definitely was capable of playing better. Imo, he should have rose to the occasion in 2012 and 2013 USOs, and 2013 Wimbledon better than he did. All those were winnable matches and he fumbled badly in each one. So pretending all this success in his 30s is because of a weak field is your own mental gymnastics. Lol

 

[NatF]

Under less pressure is your take. Do you think it was less pressure at 2019 Wimbledon? What about RG 2021? AO 2020? Wimbledon 2021 to tie the Slam record? I seriously doubt he felt less pressure in that one, especially, or the one to win a double career Slam. The huge one was USO 2021. He's never been under more pressure in a Slam final.

Never said anything about Nadal at RG and you can think whatever you want about 2015 RG (which was not one I was talking about) but he definitely was capable of playing better. Imo, he should have rose to the occasion in 2012 and 2013 USOs, and 2013 Wimbledon better than he did. All those were winnable matches and he fumbled badly in each one. So pretending all this success in his 30s is because of a weak field is your own mental gymnastics. Lol

Less pressure in terms of an opponents game. Thought that would have been clear.

Didn't say all his success was due to the field but it's been rare for the 2018+ field to play well enough to cause Djokovic to fumble is the point. Djokovic has rarely lost winnable matches in this second run but he was a huge favourite in the majority of them, in a way he wasn't in 2011-2016. I don't think there are many 6 year periods where 2018-2023 Djokovic would rack up even close to 12 slams, adjusting for era of course.

 

[Kralingen]

So if we kept Djokovic in probably like 2 more losses?

That was with me keeping Djokovic in

 

[NoleFam]

Less pressure in terms of an opponents game. Thought that would have been clear.

Didn't say all his success was due to the field but it's been rare for the 2018+ field to play well enough to cause Djokovic to fumble is the point. Djokovic has rarely lost winnable matches in this second run but he was a huge favourite in the majority of them, in a way he wasn't in 2011-2016. I don't think there are many 6 year periods where 2018-2023 Djokovic would rack up even close to 12 slams, adjusting for era of course.

So when you break it down year by year, how do you conclude 2011-2016 Slam finalists are a clear winner in terms of opponents' level or game? I see pluses and minuses for both, in both 6 year periods. Relative to decline and both's level on that day, 2019 Wimbledon was one of the most pressure filled matches Djokovic ever played in his career. That's just one. Thiem 2020 was better than Murray in most of those AO finals from 2011-2016. The list goes on.

That's your opinion, not really based on anything factual. He already proved he could win 11 in a tougher era but even that number could have been higher. If his game remained at a high level by improving some things where some other things declined, while his movement is still top tier then why couldn't he do it in another 6 year period? Since Djokovic surpassed Federer, this weak era narrative has really shifted into overdrive.

 

[Kralingen]

Thiem 2020 was better than Murray in most of those AO finals from 2011-2016. The list goes on.

Yeah he really was better wasn’t he. Lol, Murray remains such a disappointment…

 

[NoleFam]

Yeah he really was better wasn’t he. Lol, Murray remains such a disappointment…

Murray disappointed in 2011 and 2016 especially. Should have done better in 2016 since Djokovic didn't play as well as he did against Federer. From 2008-2011, he didn't show up for any Slam finals imo.

 

[RS]

Thiem AO 20 F 9/10 confirmed

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

So when you break it down year by year, how do you conclude 2011-2016 Slam finalists are a clear winner in terms of opponents' level or game? I see pluses and minuses for both, in both 6 year periods. Relative to decline and both's level on that day, 2019 Wimbledon was one of the most pressure filled matches Djokovic ever played in his career. That's just one. Thiem 2020 was better than Murray in most of those AO finals from 2011-2016. The list goes on.

That's your opinion, not really based on anything factual. He already proved he could win 11 in a tougher era but even that number could have been higher. If his game remained at a high level by improving some things where some other things declined, while his movement is still top tier then why couldn't he do it in another 6 year period? Since Djokovic surpassed Federer, this weak era narrative has really shifted into overdrive.

Press X to doubt.

 

[NoleFam]

Press X to doubt.

So I guess you think 2011 and 2016 Murray were better. Maybe the one where he got bageled in the 4th set. The best match Murray played against Djokovic at the AO wasn't even a final.

 

[Neptune]

2011-2016
Slam: Nole 11, Rafa 5, Fed 1, Murray 3
Big Title: Nole 40, Rafa 15, Fed 9, Murray 14
Points: Nole 78535, Rafa 44680, Fed 42810, Murray 47200
H2H: Nole-Rafa 19-7, Nole-Fed 17-9, Nole-Murr 20-8
Clearly one Giant and Big3

 

[nolefam_2024]

Murray is a big disappointment.

Djokovic's worst slam loss is at RG vs Nadal where he lost 7 games.

Murray lost 2 finals winning 9 games only. He was in his physical prime in especially 2011.

Murray gave opposition of Ruud in 2 finals.

 

[Holmes]

Djokovic's second period being potentially his best in terms of results without Covid really underlines how poor this recent era has been.

It's interesting how for much of the 2000s, there was no such thing as a Weak Era and this was often said with a basketful of eye rolls, "lols"and similar emojis/slang, but only over the last 3 years or so have they suddenly, spontaneously sprouted into existence.

 

[Mivic]

Murray disappointed in 2011 and 2016 especially. Should have done better in 2016 since Djokovic didn't play as well as he did against Federer. From 2008-2011, he didn't show up for any Slam finals imo.

Tbf it felt like Djokovic was in second gear after the first set of that AO16 final. He probably had a fair amount of room to raise his level if Murray had posed more of a threat.

 

[NatF]

So when you break it down year by year, how do you conclude 2011-2016 Slam finalists are a clear winner in terms of opponents' level or game? I see pluses and minuses for both, in both 6 year periods. Relative to decline and both's level on that day, 2019 Wimbledon was one of the most pressure filled matches Djokovic ever played in his career. That's just one. Thiem 2020 was better than Murray in most of those AO finals from 2011-2016. The list goes on.

That's your opinion, not really based on anything factual. He already proved he could win 11 in a tougher era but even that number could have been higher. If his game remained at a high level by improving some things where some other things declined, while his movement is still top tier then why couldn't he do it in another 6 year period? Since Djokovic surpassed Federer, this weak era narrative has really shifted into overdrive.

You're in denial. Not going to go round in circles with you about this. Agree to disagree

BTW I was calling it a weak in like May of 2018.

 

[Neptune]

It's interesting how for much of the 2000s, there was no such thing as a Weak Era, but only over the last 3 years or so have they suddenly, spontaneously sprouted into existence.

Clearly, Fed 2004-09 and Nole 2018-23 got very similar Opposition, both far less than Nole 2011-16

 

[nolefam_2024]

Fed 2004-09 (Fed1)
14 Slams
32 Big Titles
442-51(90%) Overall
44-23(66%) vs Top5(10%)
91-32(75%) vs Top10(21%)
10-12(45%) vs Elo>2300(2.3%)
42-25(63%) vs Elo>2200(9.5%)

Nole 2011-16 (Nole1)
11 Slams
40 Big Titles
427-50(90%) Overall
66-25(73%) vs Top5(15%)
140-34(80%) vs Top10(33%)
57-24(70%) vs Elo>2300(13%)
114-33(78%) vs Elo>2200(27%)

Nole 2018-23 (Nole2)
12 Slams
24 Big Titles
301-47(86%) Overall
37-16(70%) vs Top5(12%)
75-24(76%) vs Top10(25%)
10-7(59%) vs Elo>2300(3.3%)
28-13(68%) vs Elo>2200(9.3%)

ATP points: Nole1>Fed1>>Nole2
Opposition: Nole1>>Fed1>≈Nole2
win% vs tough opponents: Nole1>Nole2>Fed1

What is your comprehensive takeaways from the 3 remarkable 6-year-run?

Clearly Nole 1 is superior.

He had high competition. Roger was between age 29 to 35. He was number 1 in between that.

Rafa was age 24 to 30. Firm number 1 for a year. He reached peak Elo and ATP rankings pts during this.

Murray was age 23 to 29. He reached number 1 during this.

So competition was sky high.

Nole has just 2 less slams but 12 more masters than fed. Fed won 13 and Nole won freaking 25.

Nole also won ncygs. Fed never.

Reached higher pt accumulated vs better competition.

Yes fed had 2 more slams but his competition during this time was

Nadal who reached third highest ranking pt and world number 1 for a year.

Djokovic who was clear number 3 and was losing to scrubs

Murray who was number 2 to 6 in between losing to scrubs.

Hewitt Roddick Davey Nalby add them all don't measure up.

 

[Holmes]

Clearly, Fed 2004-09 and Nole 2018-23 got very similar Opposition, both far less than Nole 2011-16

The less said about the 04-09 field the better. I say this as a Fedfan.

 

[Neptune]

The less said about the 04-09 field the better. I say this as a Fedfan.

Respect fans like you, although I am still new here.

 

[NoleFam]

Tbf it felt like Djokovic was in second gear after the first set of that AO16 final. He probably had a fair amount of room to raise his level if Murray had posed more of a threat.

Yea, he was in 3rd gear at best. Lol. He came out firing but when Murray wasn't really threatening, his level dropped.

 

[NoleFam]

You're in denial. Not going to go round in circles with you about this. Agree to disagree

BTW I was calling it a weak in like May of 2018.

It's ironic that you say I'm the one in denial but agree to disagree.

 

[NatF]

Tbf it felt like Djokovic was in second gear after the first set of that AO16 final. He probably had a fair amount of room to raise his level if Murray had posed more of a threat.

Think Murray's mind was on the birth of his first child? Probably Raonic would have made the final if his body wasn't so brittle.

 

[NatF]

It's ironic that you say I'm the one in denial but agree to disagree.

Just the kind of comeback I'd expect. I say you're posts are an excercise in mental gymnastics, you say the same back, I say you're in denial and you say it back...I guess copying is a form of flattery right

 

[Kralingen]

Murray disappointed in 2011 and 2016 especially. Should have done better in 2016 since Djokovic didn't play as well as he did against Federer. From 2008-2011, he didn't show up for any Slam finals imo.

Honestly I’m not sure if Murray was better in 11 or 16 than even a guy like 06 Baghdatis lol.

 

[NoleFam]

Honestly I’m not sure if Murray was better in 11 or 16 than even a guy like 06 Baghdatis lol.

I watched them all and Baghdatis was definitely better than 2011 Murray. Not even a contest. Lol.

 

[Mivic]

Think Murray's mind was on the birth of his first child? Probably Raonic would have made the final if his body wasn't so brittle.

I don’t know exactly how much of a distraction it was during the tournament itself though it must have affected him mentally on some level and he discussed it pretty openly, but it surely affected his off-season, because he just didn’t really look ready to go physically or form-wise during that event. That was the one time I remember expecting a straight setter or very straightforward four setter between Murrovic at a slam, and I think Djokovic felt as much especially after the first set, which reflected in the intensity of his play in the second and third.

 

[NoleFam]

Just the kind of comeback I'd expect. I say you're posts are an excercise in mental gymnastics, you say the same back, I say you're in denial and you say it back...I guess copying is a form of flattery right

If that's the way you take it man, then I guess. Lol. You're the one who's actually denying Djokovic could do this in another 6 year period so that's why it's ironic to me.

 

[NatF]

If that's the way you take it man, then I guess. Lol. You're the one who's actually denying Djokovic could do this in another 6 year period so that's why it's ironic to me.

Lol you're the one tying yourself in loops to avoid admitting that the last six years have been weak. The tour being weak and Djokovic maintaining a good level (and being mentally on point) are not mutually exclusive.

 

[NoleFam]

Lol you're the one tying yourself in loops to avoid admitting that the last six years have been weak. The tour being weak and Djokovic maintaining a good level (and being mentally on point) are not mutually exclusive.

I've said the field is weaker than 2011-2016 at least twice in this thread, however, it's not necessary to bring up everytime we talk about his accomplishments which is pretty much what you have been doing. Most people think 2003-2007 was weak but I don't think you would say that or agree, and I don't think I need to bring up the level of the field of that time everytime I talk about Federer's dominance. It is what it is.

 

[Razer]

6 Year Periods

Sampras (93-98) -> 10 Slams / 43 titles / Win% against top 5 = 72.34%
Federer (04-09) -> 14 Slams / 50 titles / Win% against top 5 = 65.67%
Nadal (08-13) -> 10 Slams / 38 titles / Win% against top 5 = 64.38%
Djokovic (11-16) -> 11 Slams / 48 titles / Win% against top 5 = 72.53%
Djokovic (18-23) -> 12 Slams / 30 titles / Win% against top 5 = 69.81%


@Holmes, @Kralingen, @Pheasant -> Whose numbers do you feel are most impressive and whose do you feel are the least impressive ?

 

[NatF]

I've said the field is weaker than 2011-2016 at least twice in this thread, however, it's not necessary to bring up everytime we talk about his accomplishments which is pretty much what you have been doing. Most people think 2003-2007 was weak but I don't think you would say that or agree, and I don't think I need to bring up the level of the field of that time everytime I talk about Federer's dominance. It is what it is.

Is it only weaker than 2011-2016? What about 2004-2009? Or 1989-1995? Etc...

Anyway fair enough.