Fed Called out for Cheating?!.

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
I don't think Cash is wrong.

I think he has pointed out something important, that MTOs are now used as gamesmanship tactics.

But going after Fed is absurd because it is being done now by all the top players.

It's a lot like wasting time. Perhaps a shot clock would stop that, but it's not as if many players don't pretty much do the same thing.

In the case of not going over time, Fed is close to the best.

But in terms of taking time outs, Fed is clearly no longer is less likely to use them to get a mental advantage.

So Cash is 100% right. But he is being a jerk because he's not talking about a principle but obviously has a score to settle with Fed.

With him it's personal, and he seems now to make a career of being a jerk.

Worse than Wilander, who in comparison is mostly just stupid.
 
Last edited:

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think Cash is wrong.

I think he has pointed out something important, that MTOs are now used as gamesmanship tactics.

But going after Fed is absurd because it is being done now by all the top players.

It's a lot like wasting time. Perhaps a shot clock would stop that, but it's not as if many players don't pretty much do the same thing.

In the case of not going over time, Fed is close to the best.

But in terms of taking time outs, Fed is clearly no longer is less likely to use them to get a mental advantage.

So Cash is 100% right. But he is being a jerk because he not talking about a principle but obviously has a score to settle with Fed.

With him it's personal, and he seems now to make a career of being a jerk.

Worse than Wilander, who in comparison is mostly just stupid.
He is right, but of all the cases he picked the wrong one to make his point.

:cool:
 

clayqueen

G.O.A.T.
Whatever Fed does, cheating or not, he is always a shoe-in for the Sportsmanship Award. If he wins it again this year then the whole farce of these awards will be exposed once and for all.
 

Luckydog

Professional
If this was cheating, Nadal or Djoker cheated dozens of times. :rolleyes:.But pathetic Cash did not say anything. There must be something wrong in his head or he uses double standards when vetting players' behaviors on courts.
 
Last edited:

ARFED

Professional
Whatever Fed does, cheating or not, he is always a shoe-in for the Sportsmanship Award. If he wins it again this year then the whole farce of these awards will be exposed once and for all.
Is Nadal a cheater in your eyes whenever he uses an MTO, goes beyond the allowed time to serve, grunts like Sharapova, bumps a rival on a changeover? Yes or no? If he is not( i wouldn`t label Rafa a cheater btw) then Fed is the second coming of Jesus next to him.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Whatever Fed does, cheating or not, he is always a shoe-in for the Sportsmanship Award. If he wins it again this year then the whole farce of these awards will be exposed once and for all.
Thank God no one asks you about your opinion when awarding someone for his sportsmanship, otherwise we will see the word "farce" redefined.

Same goes for the other ************* members, one of which was the author of the phrase "It is not cheating (arguable at best). It is merely breaking the rules" when trying to justify yet another cheating from Rafaelita.

:cool:
 

Jonas78

Legend
As long as you cant prove if a player is in pain or not, these discussions are meaningless. As long as MTO's are legal they will be used, simply because you cant prove if they are for pain or tactical reasons.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
As long as you cant prove if a player is in pain or not, these discussions are meaningless. As long as MTO's are legal they will be used, simply because you cant prove if they are for pain or tactical reasons.
There are measures that can be taken against this.

Grant the player a MTO, but make him lose own service game for every minute after the first minute (that is, if the MTO is taken between games).

They can take as long as they want .....

:cool:
 

Jonas78

Legend
There are measures that can be taken against this.

Grant the player a MTO, but make him lose own service game for every minute after the first minute (that is, if the MTO is taken between games).

They can take as long as they want .....

:cool:
I dont disagree, but then you will punish the ones who really need a MTO. My point is that when Pat Cash says Roger is cheating, he has made a subjective assumption that Roger isnt in pain, and doesnt need the MTO. He cant prove anything. The rules have to be the same, either if you are faking or are in pain.
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
I dont disagree, but then you will punish the ones who really need a MTO.
That is true, but IMO, that is in line with the assumption, that if the player turns-up for his match, he is fit to play.

His fitness is his own responsibility and while injuries could happen suddenly no other person should be put in unfavourable condition because of that.

It is just a tennis match and if a player thinks that his health is endangered, he could just forfeit it.


My point is that when Pat Cash says Roger is cheating, he has made a subjective assumption that Roger isnt in pain, and doesnt need the MTO. He cant prove anything. The rules have to be the same, either if you are faking or are in pain.
Yeah, that is the part where Mr. Cash as an individual comes in.

:cool:
 

Jonas78

Legend
That is true, but IMO, that is in line with the assumption, that if the player turns-up for his match, he is fit to play.

His fitness is his own responsibility and while injuries could happen suddenly no other person should be put in unfavourable condition because of that.

It is just a tennis match and if a player thinks that his health is endangered, he could just forfeit it.




Yeah, that is the part where Mr. Cash as an individual comes in.

:cool:
I think i agree with you that the MTO'S should have some kind of punishment, thats the only way to get rid of fake MTO'S.
 

octobrina10

G.O.A.T.
Federer's record of using MTOs is spotless.

He has never abused the rule (as opposed to other players), so there is no reason to believe that this is the case now.

Maybe Mr.Cash should look into his 5setters in GS tournaments at the age of 35 and draw some experience from there.

Oh, wait ...

:cool:
Fed has a long history of taking MTOs.
2001:
 

clayqueen

G.O.A.T.
I think i agree with you that the MTO'S should have some kind of punishment, thats the only way to get rid of fake MTO'S.
Why should a medical time out be punished? Is a player supposed to carry on regardless of being injured. It's the misuse of it that is wrong. Federer misused it because it is not allowed for a pre-existing condition which he confessed to. Against Stan he said it was just nice to have someone to talk to. What Fedfans should accept is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
 

Jonas78

Legend
Why should a medical time out be punished? Is a player supposed to carry on regardless of being injured. It's the misuse of it that is wrong. Federer misused it because it is not allowed for a pre-existing condition which he confessed to. Against Stan he said it was just nice to have someone to talk to. What Fedfans should accept is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Federer isnt interesting here, if this is a big problem, it affects the whole tennis world, and should be discussed on a general basis.

The problem is that you can never prove if a MTO is fake or not. So the only way to get rid of fake MTO'S is that it has some kind of punishment. If not - fake MTO'S will live on, plain and simple, there is nothing you can do to stop it. Why shouldnt you cheat, if you have everything to win and nothing to lose? If athletes were moral people, you wouldnt need drug testing either.
 
Last edited:

Urkezi

Semi-Pro
Fed has a long history of taking MTOs.
2001:
Yp, we know, you've posted this at least 20 times by now. This LONG history includes taking cca. 7-8 MTO's in some 1300 matches, which is roughly 1 MTO every 160 matches. That's a LONG, LONG history.

What's Nadal's count?
Finals at Monte-Carlo, 2008 Federer
Finals at Hamburg, 2008 Federer
Wimbledon 2010: Against Philipp Petzschner
Wimbledon 2011 Del Potro
Monte Carlo 2006 Federer
Australian Open 2014 Wawrinka
2007 Sydney Guccione
2007 WC Federer
2007 Cincinnati J. Monaco
2007 UO Jones
2008 Chennai Youzhny
2008 Rome Ferrero
2009 US Open - Almagro
2008 WC Youzhny
2008 Paris Davdenko
2009 Rotterdam-Dubai Murray
2009 YEC Djokovic
2010 AO Murray
2011 AO Ferrer
2011 Miami Berdych
2011 RG Federer
2011 WC Muller
2011 UO Nalbandian
2015 Stuttgart Tomic
2015 Hamburg Seppi
2016 Rome Djokovic

And my personal favourite:

Now I haven't checked if that's all true or not or if it's even all of them, it's not my list although I remember quite a few of them, but THAT is what you call a LONG HISTORY of MTO's.
 

Hitman's Gurl

Professional
Suspicious. I remember that Fedlovers (aka Rafa haters) have called taking a long break from the ATP Tour 'a silent ban'.
Why do you say Fedlovers aka Rafa haters? I love Fed the most but Rafa is my second favorite. I am sorry but it is not nice to say such things. Is the opposite true of you then? Rafalovers like you are aka Fedhaters? See how hurtful and baseless such statements are?
 

Tennis_Hands

Talk Tennis Guru
Why should a medical time out be punished? Is a player supposed to carry on regardless of being injured. It's the misuse of it that is wrong. Federer misused it because it is not allowed for a pre-existing condition which he confessed to. Against Stan he said it was just nice to have someone to talk to. What Fedfans should accept is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
The ignorant Vamos a la playa Brigade members strike again.

3.Medical

a.Medical Condition

A medical condition
is a medical illness or a musculoskeletal injury
that warrants medical evaluation and/or medical treatment by the
Physiotherapist/Athletic Trainer
(also known as the Primary Health
Care Provider) during the warm up or the match.

Treatable Medical Conditions

o Acute medical condition:
the sudden development of
a medical illness or musculoskeletal injury during the
warm up or the match that requires immediate
medical attention.

o Non acute medical condition:
a medical illness or
musculoskeletal injury that develops or is aggravated
during the warm up or the match
and requires
medical attention at the changeover or set break.


http://www.itftennis.com/media/220770/220770.pdf

:cool:
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
The problem is that you can never prove if a MTO is fake or not. So the only way to get rid of fake MTO'S is that it has some kind of punishment. If not - fake MTO'S will live on, plain and simple, there is nothing you can do to stop it.
That's exactly why I think that it should be an official ATP-rule that MTO's may ONLY be taken before one's OWN serve game (unless of course there's been an immediate accident, a bad fall, a twist of an ankle - things that anyone with working eyes have been able to see happening).

It might not get rid of the entire problem (which I think is impossible), but I do think it would help to rid out some of the blatant fake-MTO's only meant to disrupt the opponent's rhythm.
At least a step in the right direction.
 

octobrina10

G.O.A.T.
Yp, we know, you've posted this at least 20 times by now. This LONG history includes taking cca. 7-8 MTO's in some 1300 matches, which is roughly 1 MTO every 160 matches. That's a LONG, LONG history.

What's Nadal's count?
Finals at Monte-Carlo, 2008 Federer
Finals at Hamburg, 2008 Federer
Wimbledon 2010: Against Philipp Petzschner
Wimbledon 2011 Del Potro
Monte Carlo 2006 Federer
Australian Open 2014 Wawrinka
2007 Sydney Guccione
2007 WC Federer
2007 Cincinnati J. Monaco
2007 UO Jones
2008 Chennai Youzhny
2008 Rome Ferrero
2009 US Open - Almagro
2008 WC Youzhny
2008 Paris Davdenko
2009 Rotterdam-Dubai Murray
2009 YEC Djokovic
2010 AO Murray
2011 AO Ferrer
2011 Miami Berdych
2011 RG Federer
2011 WC Muller
2011 UO Nalbandian
2015 Stuttgart Tomic
2015 Hamburg Seppi
2016 Rome Djokovic

And my personal favourite:

Now I haven't checked if that's all true or not or if it's even all of them, it's not my list although I remember quite a few of them, but THAT is what you call a LONG HISTORY of MTO's.
Fed (what I have found on the Internet):


















(treatment during the changover):
 
Last edited:

Jonas78

Legend
That's exactly why I think that it should be an official ATP-rule that MTO's may ONLY be taken before one's OWN serve game (unless of course there's been an immediate accident, a bad fall, a twist of an ankle - things that anyone with working eyes have been able to see happening).

It might not get rid of the entire problem (which I think is impossible), but I do think it would help to rid out some of the blatant fake-MTO's only meant to disrupt the opponent's rhythm.
At least a step in the right direction.
Thats the paradox:):

If MTO's have no price, there will continue to be a huge amount of misuse. I mean, do people believe athletes are moral people? Then you wouldnt need drug testing either.

If MTO's have a price, you will punish the ones who really need them.

You have to choose one of the two. But as you say, there might be some changes that are smarter than others, but in the end, every punishment will hurt the ones who really need a MTO.
 

octobrina10

G.O.A.T.
Suspicious. I remember that Fedlovers (aka Rafa haters) have called taking a long break from the ATP Tour 'a silent ban'.
Why do you say Fedlovers aka Rafa haters? I love Fed the most but Rafa is my second favorite. I am sorry but it is not nice to say such things. Is the opposite true of you then? Rafalovers like you are aka Fedhaters? See how hurtful and baseless such statements are?
So, you admit that you have called taking a long break from the ATP Tour 'a silent ban'.
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
Thats the paradox:):
If MTO's have a price, you will punish the ones who really need them.
I've already made an exception for those who 'really need them' in my previous post: only when an immediate injury occurs.

Niggles, physical irritations, and other minor discomforts: no MTO until it's your own turn to serve. Even better, perhaps: wait for commercial break.
 

Urkezi

Semi-Pro
Fed (what I have found in the Internet):
















(treatment during the changover):
So that's 10. 10 in 1332 matches. Rafa has 25 in 990. Which puts them at Roger at 1 MTO every 133,2 matches and Rafa 1 MTO every 39,6 matches. LOL, LOL, LOL and another 0,363 LOL's :)
 

Drlexus

Banned
Nadal and Djokovic aren't close to him (especially Djokovic, who like Federer took advantage of a "weak period") with the bar being set to 18. 14 slams and the H2H advantage doesn't do it, and 12 slams + 4 in a row (with nobody to stop Djokovic mind you) won't do it either. Both need 19 slams to surpass Federer, although Djokovic could do it with 18 and a more balanced resume.


It's not that it "doesn't matter". It's that it is expected at this point. Federer is 35 years old, him winning his latest major was a huge surprise.


Considering he was 32 and 33 when Djokovic beat him (and Federer's return stats have been going down yearly at Wimbledon) it's a fair argument to say Djokovic benefited from Federer being past his prime (especially in 2015).


Perhaps it's because his fans act like he's the greatest ever when in reality he has 12 slams and won half of them in a transitional period?
Sorry but that whole post higligjts chronic insecurity. Federer lost to djokovic period. It cant work both ways...wheb he loses its because he is old but when he wins he is goat. That is absurd.

Yes it is harder for nadal to get past federer now but not impossible. There are a lack of genuine major contenders and nadal showed enough in australia on a court totally unsuited to him that he coukd dominate this year on the higher bouncing courts. So there is a good chance he may be on 15 or even 16 majors by the year end or djokovic is on 14 as other than murray at the french open and uso there simply are no other potential winners. Wawrinka i fear wont ever win a major again.

As for balanced resume nadals is more balanced than djokovic as he has won more off his favourite surface. However djokovic doesnt need to get past federer to be goat. His nole slam was huge. His era no weaker than federers 2003-2006.

If djokovic wins the french open this year by beating madal in the form he was in australia and hasa double career slam i would consider djokovic goat. If he then followed up and won wimbledon beating federer along the way its not even a debate.

As others keep saying and i agree with them lets enjoy the ride and see what happens..the game hasnt finished yet.
 

Drlexus

Banned
Agree or disagree with pat cash the truth is his views carry more weight than any of our views...unless there are any ex pros on here?
 

Jonas78

Legend
I've already made an exception for those who 'really need them' in my previous post: only when an immediate injury occurs.

Niggles, physical irritations, and other minor discomforts: no MTO until it's your own turn to serve. Even better, perhaps: wait for commercial break.
I see your point, but in the end, if waiting for own serve or commercial break, you kind of punish the ones who are in discomfort.

But I agree with you, if you want to get rid of (at least part of) the problem, there must be a price to pay. If you allow athletes to cheat, they will.

And who is going to determine which injuries/accidents can wait, and which not? Football players fake falls, why shouldnt tennis players?
 
Last edited:

Hitman's Gurl

Professional
Fedlovers (aka Rafa haters) have made a zillion statements that taking a long break from the ATP Tour is 'a silent ban'. Have you ever asked them to stop?
Again I kindly ask you for stop using blanket statements. I am a Fedlover but I am not a Rafa hater. Is this so difficult to comprehend? Please don't deflect the point of our discussion. Fedlover does not automatically mean Rafa hater. Please understand the difference.
 

chut

Semi-Pro
So that's 10. 10 in 1332 matches. Rafa has 25 in 990. Which puts them at Roger at 1 MTO every 133,2 matches and Rafa 1 MTO every 39,6 matches. LOL, LOL, LOL and another 0,363 LOL's :)
It's actually maybe not even 10, since Octobrina loves alternative facts. It's actually quite hard from her list to determine MTO's from changeovers treatments :rolleyes:

As the Fed hater she is, she certainly doesn't have the honesty to make a proper list.
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
I see your point, but in the end, if waiting for own serve or commercial break, you kind of punish the ones who are in discomfort.

But I agree with you, if you want to get rid of (at least part of) the problem, there must be a price to pay. If you allow athletes to cheat, they will.
No 'discomfort' can be that awful (unless, as already said, it's an immediate injury) to not be able to wait for the next serve game, and if it is, well... forfeit your return game.

And who is going to determine which injuries/accidents can wait, and which not? Football players fake falls, why shouldnt tennis players?
Yep, it will always remain a problem, but I do think a tennis ump will have a better view of what's exactly happening on court than, say, a football arbiter, the field being much larger than a tennis court.
I somehow cannot see tennis players do 'fake divings' on court in the first place: the risk of getting a real injury by doing so might just be a mite too big. ;)

Okay, I'll make an exception for Monfils, for that matter... :D
 

Jonas78

Legend
No 'discomfort' can be that awful (unless, as already said, it's an immediate injury) to not be able to wait for the next serve game, and if it is, well... forfeit your return game.


Yep, it will always remain a problem, but I do think a tennis ump will have a better view of what's exactly happening on court than, say, a football arbiter, the field being much larger than a tennis court.
I somehow cannot see tennis players do 'fake divings' on court in the first place: the risk of getting a real injury by doing so might just be a mite too big. ;)
Wait until own serve game is probably a good rule. If you cant wait until your own serve game, maybe even the rule should be that the other player wins that game? Unless maybe really severe injuries.
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
Wait until own serve game is probably a good rule. If you cant wait until your own serve game, maybe even the rule should be that the other player wins that game? Unless maybe really severe injuries.
Yes, exactly.
If the injury happens to be severe, chances are there that the player cannot continue the match anyways...
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
Why should a medical time out be punished? Is a player supposed to carry on regardless of being injured. It's the misuse of it that is wrong. Federer misused it because it is not allowed for a pre-existing condition which he confessed to. Against Stan he said it was just nice to have someone to talk to. What Fedfans should accept is that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Pre existing condition, lol, are you CIGNA now? I believe the rule is you can't take mto the second time for the same problem.
 

octobrina10

G.O.A.T.
Again I kindly ask you for stop using blanket statements. I am a Fedlover but I am not a Rafa hater. Is this so difficult to comprehend? Please don't deflect the point of our discussion. Fedlover does not automatically mean Rafa hater. Please understand the difference.
You did not answer my question.
 

Hitman's Gurl

Professional
Why do you say Fedlovers aka Rafa haters? I love Fed the most but Rafa is my second favorite. I am sorry but it is not nice to say such things. Is the opposite true of you then? Rafalovers like you are aka Fedhaters? See how hurtful and baseless such statements are?
You did not answer my question.
I don't see you answering my questions either and I asked them first. If you feel you can just brush away my questions and then expect me to answer yours, then what do you think I should do. I consider it rude when you ask a question of someone and they ignore it and yet expect you to answer theirs. I feel no obligation to answer your question if you cannot answer mine which I asked first.
 

Sartorius

Hall of Fame
Suspicious. I remember that Fedlovers (aka Rafa haters) have called taking a long break from the ATP Tour 'a silent ban'.
Why do you say Fedlovers aka Rafa haters? I love Fed the most but Rafa is my second favorite. I am sorry but it is not nice to say such things. Is the opposite true of you then? Rafalovers like you are aka Fedhaters? See how hurtful and baseless such statements are?
So, you admit that you have called taking a long break from the ATP Tour 'a silent ban'.
No. I have nothing bad to say about Rafa. But please stop making blanket statements.
Fedlovers (aka Rafa haters) have made a zillion statements that taking a long break from the ATP Tour is 'a silent ban'. Have you ever asked them to stop?
Again I kindly ask you for stop using blanket statements. I am a Fedlover but I am not a Rafa hater. Is this so difficult to comprehend? Please don't deflect the point of our discussion. Fedlover does not automatically mean Rafa hater. Please understand the difference.
You did not answer my question.
I just wanted to take a moment, lay out these quotes, and just marvel at this conversation. Octobrina, your irrationality and paralogism is mind boggling.
 

moonballs

Hall of Fame
Why do you say Fedlovers aka Rafa haters? I love Fed the most but Rafa is my second favorite. I am sorry but it is not nice to say such things. Is the opposite true of you then? Rafalovers like you are aka Fedhaters? See how hurtful and baseless such statements are?
Octo repeatedly described the booing in the 2014 AO final as from "Fed hooligans", even though Rafa was playing Stan, who put up a big protest over rafas mto.

Fed wasn't even there.

It is just her way of dealing with tough reality, I guess.
 

octobrina10

G.O.A.T.
Octo repeatedly described the booing in the 2014 AO final as from "Fed hooligans", even though Rafa was playing Stan, who put up a big protest over rafas mto.

Fed wasn't even there.

It is just her way of dealing with tough reality, I guess.
Fedlovers were there.
 
I just wanted to take a moment, lay out these quotes, and just marvel at this conversation. Octobrina, your irrationality and paralogism is mind boggling.
She does strike me as a person suffering from transcortical sensory aphasie with varying degree of severity who - on top of that and to make matters even worse - happens to be reading/seeing things/ filling in figments between the lines excessively...
 

octobrina10

G.O.A.T.
I just wanted to take a moment, lay out these quotes, and just marvel at this conversation. Octobrina, your irrationality and paralogism is mind boggling.
Fedlovers' (aka Rafa haters) irrationality and paralogism have been mind boggling for years. For example, here (and not only in these threads):

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/has-anyone-actually-been-found-out-to-be-on-a-silent-ban.436162/
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/silent-ban-discussion.449242/
 
Top