Federer 2004 vs 2007

Which is the better season?

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RS said:
Disagree in it was the Wim 04 final.

Disagree with the 2nd part as well.
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you can disagree all you want on the 1st part. Federer was clearly better on the return, from the ground and at the net in Wim 04 final.
Serving was better in Wim 07 final, that's it. No set like set4 of Wim 07 final in Wim 04 final from Fed.

Just because it was against Nadal in Wim 07 final, doesn't make 07 final better.
I'd say Wim 06 final was better than Wim 04 final just in case you bring up the narrative that I'm only putting it down because Wim 07 final was against Nadal.

2nd part is debatable. Nadal was better from the ground in Wim 07 final and better on the serve in Wim 08 final. But keep in mind he was up against a better, more confident fed in Wim 07 final.
 
abmk said:
you can disagree all you want on the 1st part. Federer was clearly better on the return, from the ground and at the net in Wim 04 final.
Serving was better in Wim 07 final, that's it. No set like set4 of Wim 07 final in Wim 04 final from Fed.

Just because it was against Nadal in Wim 07 final, doesn't make 07 final better.
I'd say Wim 06 final was better than Wim 04 final just in case you bring up the narrative that I'm only putting it down because Wim 07 final was against Nadal.

2nd part is debatable. Nadal was better from the ground in Wim 07 final and better on the serve in Wim 08 final. But keep in mind he was up against a better, more confident fed in Wim 07 final.
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He was better off the ground in 07 final as well due to using it more was Nadal. Set 4 was the only worst set really he wasn’t worse in the first 3 or the last one.

And what people forget is how subdued Federer and pushed back by Roddick power unlike in many other matches vs Roddick he didn’t play at his best consistently until the last 2 sets really.
 
RS said:
He was better off the ground in 07 final as well.
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LAWL, no.

RS said:
And what people forget is how subdued Federer and pushed back by Roddick power and weight of shot was in parts of the Wim 04 final he didn’t play at his best until the last 2 sets really.
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anyone would be pushed back by that with Roddick absolutely hitting the cover off the ball. If peak fed struggled, almost no chance for nadboy or novak "4-5 vs Roddick" djokovic
Keep in mind, fed still had BPs to break back in the 1st set and Roddick saved them all.
 
Sport said:
Medvedev would have annhilated Ferrero in the USO 2003.
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Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of Ferrero beating Hewitt and Agassi b2b in USO 03 and you being absolutely clueless calling him only a CC specialist.
 
abmk said:
Naw.

And in case you want to continue on these lines:

2006 Wim Nadal > Wim 2018 Nadal
81 game hold streak, better returning, movement and all that.
;)
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You rated him as a 9.25/10 which is near perfection :D

Wim 06 Nadal is underlooked on here indeed. Don’t think he was far off Wim 18 Nadal I think the SF doors edge it slightly the 18 way though.
 
abmk said:
LAWL, no.



anyone would be pushed back by that with Roddick absolutely hitting the cover off the ball. If peak fed struggled, almost no chance for nadboy or novak "4-5 vs Roddick" djokovic
Keep in mind, fed still had BPs to break back in the 1st set and Roddick saved them all.
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Federer held up quite well from the ground vs Nadal in the 07 final and it wasn’t just due to Roddick hitting the ball like a caveman. Federer changed his way of playing in set 3 and 4 and dealt with that agression and forced Roddick on the back more.

At that Roddick vs Nadal/Djokovic stuff again?
 
RS said:
You rated him as a 9.25/10 which is near perfection :D

Wim 06 Nadal is underlooked on here indeed. Don’t think he was far off Wim 18 Nadal I think the SF doors edge it slightly the 18 way though.
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Conveniently underlooked I would say ;)
 
@RS @abmk I think the Fedal match in 2007 would have looked different in 2004 conditions imo.2007 was bouncier and slower in comparison.Nadal was better, of course, but still, conditions mattered I would say.
 
RS said:
Federer held up quite well from the ground vs Nadal in the 07 final and it wasn’t just due to Roddick hitting the ball like a caveman. Federer changed his way of playing in set 3 and 4 and dealt with that agression and forced Roddick on the back more.

At that Roddick vs Nadal/Djokovic stuff again?
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its not that easy when someone comes out of the gate all guns firing everywhere: serve, groundstrokes and aggressive on the return. I think Roddick's 2nd serve speeds in the 1st set were near Federer's 1st serve speeds. Even then fed did have break back points. Roddick just saved them.
(Similarly in USO 04 final 1st set when Federer came out all guns blazing vs hewitt.)

Its just this monster impression federer has built up vs Roddick - he makes it look clearly easier than it is on most occasions. Same thing applies to Wim 09 final btw. People tend to take it for granted. Even a little bit deviation due to whatever reasons - oh fed is not doing well.

Federer did break Roddick 5 times in Wim 04 final, which is clearly better than breaking Nadal 3 times in Wim 07 final.
 
RS said:
Hewitt adjusted to the considered faster 04 conditions. Why wouldn’t Nadal in the 07/08 finals?
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He would adjust, I am not denying it, but it would be harder for him to take advantage of Fed's backhand if the bounce would be lower.
 
abmk said:
its not that easy when someone comes out of the gate all guns firing everywhere: serve, groundstrokes and aggressive on the return. I think Roddick's 2nd serve speeds in the 1st set were near Federer's 1st serve speeds. Even then fed did have break back points. Roddick just saved them.
(Similarly in USO 04 final 1st set when Federer came out all guns blazing vs hewitt.)

Its just this monster impression federer has built up vs Roddick - he makes it look clearly easier than it is on most occasions. Same thing applies to Wim 09 final btw. People tend to take it for granted. Even a little bit deviation due to whatever reasons - oh fed is not doing well.

Federer did break Roddick 5 times in that match, which is clearly better than breaking Nadal 3 times in Wim 07 final.
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Federer returned a lot better in 04 than 07 yes. Even though Nadal serve is harder to deal with for Fed. I think the only final this is the case in 09 all his others get rated well in terms of level in his best years.

I was trolling to say Nadal would clearly be the favourite or he would clean up with Roddick but do actually think the 04 was no better than the 07 one.
 
RS said:
Federer returned a lot better in 04 than 07 yes. Even though Nadal serve is harder to deal with for Fed. I think the only final this is the case in 09 all his others get rated well in terms of level in his best years.

I was trolling to say Nadal would clearly be the favourite or he would clean up with Roddick but do actually think the 04 was no better than the 07 one.
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From the ad court especially.With Roddick is a matter of the speed of the serve rather than anything else.
 
RS said:
Federer returned a lot better in 04 than 07 yes. Even though Nadal serve is harder to deal with for Fed.
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it isn't - not on absolute scale anyways.
Compared to the relative strengths of the serves yes.

RS said:
I think the only final this is the case in 09 all his others get rated well in terms of level in his best years.
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yes, 2009 Wim final is the most prominent example.

RS said:
I was trolling to say Nadal would clearly be the favourite or he would clean up with Roddick but do actually think the 04 was no better than the 07 one.
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not with that 4th set in Wim 07 final or atleast should not have faced those 4 BPs in the 5th set - for it to be equal.
 
abmk said:
it isn't - not on absolute scale anyways.
Compared to the relative strengths of the serves yes.



yes, 2009 Wim final is the most prominent example.



not with that 4th set in Wim 07 final or atleast should not have faced those 4 BPs in the 5th set - for it to be equal.
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Just checked my other thread now you rated both as a 9.5/10 which is a equal rating . I wouldn’t mind saying the 04 final was better even though I disagree with it. I think Roddick had 5/6 BPs vs Fed in the last set as well in 04.

It looked to me like Nadal spiny serves did the most damage but I guess it was his general game as well not just that and it’s not the case indoors as well.
 
RS said:
Just checked my other thread now you rated both as a 9.5/10 which is a equal rating . I wouldn’t mind saying the 04 final was better even though I disagree with it. I think Roddick had 5/6 BPs vs Fed in the last set as well in 04.

It looked to me like Nadal spiny serves did the most damage but I guess it was his general game as well not just that and it’s not the case indoors as well.
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Those BPs in a 4th set don't compare to the ones in a 5th set after having lost the 4th set 6-2.

Return% points won:

vs Roddick on HC: 37.4%
vs Nadal on HC: 36.4%

vs Roddick on grass: 34.4%
vs Nadal on grass: 35.2%

Not much of a difference really. Since Nadal's ground game is clearly better, on an absolute scale, these stats indicate Fed has returned Nadal's serve better.
 
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Until the final I was not overly impressed with his 2004 US Open, at least comparative to his runs in Australia and Wimbledon that year which I think were both awesome. I think his 2007 was way more impressive there, but I'd give 2004 the win with the other two. I think Australia 2007 gets a massive shine from the badassery of the last two rounds, but in 2004 the trio of scalps of Hewitt, Nalbandian and Ferrero was more epic to me. The final maybe takes a little of the shine off given the state of Safin, but I still give it the edge overall. Wimbledon 2004 is way more impressive to me, his 2007 run is (give or take maybe 2005) the least impressive of his five in a row.

Obviously his 2004 Roland Garros is a bit of a... cataclysmic failure, but... Well, so was 2007 in the end, he just got a few rounds further first :-D I actually think his Hamburg 2004 run was SO GOOD it actually kind of makes up for it.

Anyway, just in terms of his play I think by 2007 you could sort of see where things were heading. To me he was relying more and more on his serve to get him through, where as in 2004 he was more kicking peoples asses off the ground, which, let's face... It's much cooler.

In fact for me the only major advantage 2007 has over 2004 is hair. 2005-08 was peak Hairerer before he cut it shorter, and I'm sorry but that ponytail was a crime against humanity, and looked even worse when he let it down after the matches.

To me the REAL comparison between these years is USO04 Final vs. AO07 Semi Final. Now that's a tough one. For me the tennis is maybe slightly higher in one where as the circumstances make the other more impressive.
 
abmk said:
Those BPs in a 4th set don't compare to the ones in a 5th set after having lost the 4th set 6-2.

Return% points won:

vs Roddick on HC: 37.4%
vs Nadal on HC: 36.8%

vs Roddick on grass: 34.4%
vs Nadal on grass: 35.2%

Not much of a difference really. Since Nadal's ground game is clearly better, on an absolute scale, these stats indicate Fed has returned Nadal's serve better.
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I wonder how much that is influenced by him doing better vs Nadal in recent meetings like winning 6 of the last 7 meetings? Was more talking back then.

Even that 4th set I felt Federer had his bad play in the first few games. Maybe the return edges in 2004 favour but not convinced.
 
RS said:
I wonder how much that is influenced by him doing better vs Nadal in recent meetings like winning 6 of the last 7 meetings? Was more talking back then.

Even that 4th set I felt Federer had his bad play in the first few games. Maybe the return edges in 2004 favour but not convinced.
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Fed vs Nadal on HC till 2012 end on HC
return points won = 37.5%


about the same

whatever fed lost in 13-early 14 (IW 13, Cincy 13, YEC 13, AO 14), he gained back in 15 Basel and 17

2006-08 Wimby on grass
return points won = 35.2%


exact same.
 
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ibbi said:
Until the final I was not overly impressed with his 2004 US Open, at least comparative to his runs in Australia and Wimbledon that year which I think were both awesome. I think his 2007 was way more impressive there, but I'd give 2004 the win with the other two. I think Australia 2007 gets a massive shine from the badassery of the last two rounds, but in 2004 the trio of scalps of Hewitt, Nalbandian and Ferrero was more epic to me. The final maybe takes a little of the shine off given the state of Safin, but I still give it the edge overall. Wimbledon 2004 is way more impressive to me, his 2007 run is (give or take maybe 2005) the least impressive of his five in a row.

Obviously his 2004 Roland Garros is a bit of a... cataclysmic failure, but... Well, so was 2007 in the end, he just got a few rounds further first :-D I actually think his Hamburg 2004 run was SO GOOD it actually kind of makes up for it.

Anyway, just in terms of his play I think by 2007 you could sort of see where things were heading. To me he was relying more and more on his serve to get him through, where as in 2004 he was more kicking peoples asses off the ground, which, let's face... It's much cooler.

In fact for me the only major advantage 2007 has over 2004 is hair. 2005-08 was peak Hairerer before he cut it shorter, and I'm sorry but that ponytail was a crime against humanity, and looked even worse when he let it down after the matches.

To me the REAL comparison between these years is USO04 Final vs. AO07 Semi Final. Now that's a tough one. For me the tennis is maybe slightly higher in one where as the circumstances make the other more impressive.
Click to expand...

you might want to watch the Henman USO 04 semi again. Among his top 4 USO matches (other ones being USO 2004 F and USO 2006 SF/F obviously)
 
mike danny said:
Nadal would adjust too, but Hewitt grew up in faster conditions so not sure what your post was all about.
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It is linked to his comment to me about Nadal and Hewitt growing up in fast conditions is way overstated as well.
 
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mike danny said:
2004 was on the same level was as years like 2014 and 2015. Better than the career inflation era.
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2004 > 2014 and most certainly considerably better than 2015.
I made a detailed post comparing 2004 and 2014, but can't seem to find it now.
 
RS said:
Level got higher after imo. No way of proving it but get that feeling.

For me 2007-2013 > 2014 - > 2000-2006
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You're right. Opinions differ. Disagree with 2014-present being better than 2000-2006. Just because the Big 3 were still winning, doesn't mean it was a strong period. I'd argue they were still winning because it was a weak one.
 
mike danny said:
You're right. Opinions differ. Disagree with 2014-present being better than 2000-2006. Just because the Big 3 were still winning, doesn't mean it was a strong period. I'd argue they were still winning because it was a weak one.
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If you feel that way fine.
 
@mike danny :

This is what I found:

2004 vs 2013 actually:

abmk said:
Not a full comparision, but lets see for now :

AO 04 vs AO 13

Fed, Safin, Agassi,Nalby, Hewitt, Roddick, Ferrero > Djoko, Waw, Murray, Fed, Tsonga

Fed 04 > Djoko 13

Safin-Agassi ~ Djoko-Wawr
Safin-Roddick > Fed-Tsonga
Fed-nalby > fed-Murray

then you have fed-hewitt as well


FO 04 vs FO 13

Coria, Gaudio, Moya, Henman, Fed, Kuerten, Nalby in between < and << Nadal, djoko, ferrer, tsonga
top level is obviously clearly higher in 13 with nadal, djoko ....but more depth in 04

Wim 04 vs Wim 13

Federer, Roddick, Hewitt, Ancic between > and >> Murray, Djokovic, Delpo, Janowicz

Federer 04 between > and >> Murray 13
Roddick 04 > djokovic 13
Hewitt 04 > Delpo 13 (equal at worst)
Ancic 04 > Janowicz

USO 04 vs USO 13

Fed, Agassi, Hewitt, Henman between > and >> Nadal, Djokovic, Wawrinka, Gasquet

remember Nadal's form tapered off in SF, F compared to before.
Fed 04 > Nadal 13 (by some distance)
Agassi 04, Hewitt 04 would both beat djokovic 13&stan 13

The most difference in slams is in FO 04 vs FO 13, but the other 3 slams in 04 are clearly better

YEC 04 vs YEC 13

Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick ; djokovic, nadal, federer,wawrinka.

Federer 04 > djoko 13
hewitt 04 >~ nadal 13
safin 04 > federer 13
roddick 04 > wawrinka 13

again YEC 04 is clearly better
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Also: 2005 vs 2015:

abmk said:
how are they even close to being even ? I can understand disageeing with much better and saying just better, but close to even, I don't see it at all.

2005 AO vs 2015 AO : Safin, Federer, Hewitt, Nalbandian, Roddick >> Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Berdych
2005 FO vs 2015 FO : Nadal, Federer, Puerta, Davydenko, Coria ,Canas, Robredo, Ferrer, Gaudio > Wawrinka, Djokovic, Murray, Tsonga, Federer,Nadal, Nishi

2005 Wim vs 2015 Wim : about the same (let me go a bit in detail for this)

Federer 2005 Wim > Djokovic 2015 Wim
Hewitt 2005 Wim ~ Federer 2015 Wim (including the final, maybe a slight edge to 15 Wim fed, but its debatable, longer it goes, more in favour of hewitt)
Roddick 2005 Wim < Murray 2015 Wim
Johansson 2005 Wim ~ Anderson 2015 Wim
Gonzalez 2005 Wim ~ Gasquet 2015 Wim

about even

2005 USO vs 2015 USO : Federer, Agassi, Hewitt, Nalbandian >> Djokovic, Federer, Wawrinka

YEC : 2005 was affected quite a bit by injuries, but final made up for it. 2005 YEC < 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2005 > 2015
IW 05 had fed, hewitt, roddick, canas
IW 15 had djoko, fed, , raonic, murray
about the same. Murray was actually worse than canas was.

Miami 05 : federer struggled a little bit earlier, then played really well in QF+SF (henman, agassi)
nadal actually cruised through to final except for ljubicic match.
then that epic final

Miami 15 : djokovic struggled earlier, barely escaping vs dolgo, then played well in the later matches.
murray played better than in IW clearly, but still nothing great.
nothing else noteworthy

I'd say Miami 05 is somewhere in b/w > and >> Miami 15

clay season minus RG : 2005 > 2015
2005 had nadal winning rome+monte carlo. epic 5-setter vs coria at rome. good semi vs gasquet at monte carlo (gasquet upset fed there in an excellent performance)
decent final vs coria
federer dominated hamburg

2015 had djokovic coming through tough draw in rome; fed in final, wawr in semi
madrid wasn't really good in quality. murray played really but, but nadal was poor
monte carlo had a good final, but nothing much else with djokovic playing well in tourney


North America HC season minus USO : 2005 < 2015

Canada 05 < Canada 15
djokovic barely escaped vs gulbis, got beat by murray playing well
nadal beat agassi in 3-setter in 2005 final
no fed in 2005 or in 2015

Cincy 05 < Cincy 15
fed of Cincy 05 < fed of cincy 15
roddick, hewitt in 05; djokovic murray in 05

Indoor season minus YEC : 2005 << 2015
djokovic was on a tear in 2015 indoor season. even players playing some okayish/decent tennis were dismissed - nadal, murray etc
fed-nadal final in basel
no fed in 05 (injured, so out of madrid+paris)
nadal-ljubicic 5-setter in madrid 05 is not enough to cover up for it+paris being depleted of even more players

So to sum it up , IMO :

2005 AO >> 2015 AO
2005 RG > 2015 RG
2005 Wim ~ 2015 Wim
2005 USO >> 2015 USO

2005 YEC < 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2005 > 2015
clay season minus RG : 2005 > 2015
North America HC season minus USO : 2005 < 2015
Indoor season minus YEC : 2005 << 2015


the non major events in 15 is a little better than 2005 (thanks to indoor season.)
But the difference in slams in 2005 is just too big.

so yeah, I stand by 2005 >> 2015.
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I know I did 2004 vs 2014 in a conversation with poster ReechSachs, but can't find and his profile seems to be gone as well.
 
abmk said:
It was? So you learnt trolling only in your new avatar? :D
Because you didn't use to troll as ReechSachs.
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People knew. When i joined wanted to change it soon after but did not get a reply but later they allowed it.

I only started trolling on a regular basis recently before it was only here and there like other posters.
 
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