Federer 2015 was equal or better to Federer 2009

mike danny

Talk Tennis Guru
#6
2015 is PRIME PEAK ABSOLUTE PEAKING fedr.

Sure he had better stats at net because he attacked so much, but you can't beat reaching all 4 finals
This.

2015 Djokovic isn't the reason for Fed not reaching all 4 slam finals in 2015. How could anyone argue 2015 Fed could be better than 2009 is beyond me.
 
#7
Watch Fraud against 2009 Djoker in USO
Watch Fraud against Ralph in AO F for first four sets
Watch Fraud's RG campaign
Watch Fraud's WB campaign


Ask yourself these things

Could Fred in 2015 even compare to the baseline ability on display in each of the example especially the 2009 AO F one(Even if he lost) ?

Then ask yourself if anyone can win a slam in 2010s court being as dependent on serve and forecourt play as Fred 2015 ?

If you have an ounce of Tennis understanding you know the answers.
 

mike danny

Talk Tennis Guru
#8
Watch Fraud against 2009 Djoker in USO
Watch Fraud against Ralph in AO F for first four sets
Watch Fraud's RG campaign
Watch Fraud's WB campaign


Ask yourself these things

Could Fred in 2015 even compare to the baseline ability on display in each of the example especially the 2009 AO F one(Even if he lost) ?

Then ask yourself if anyone can win a slam in 2010s court being as dependent on serve and forecourt play as Fred 2015 ?

If you have an ounce of Tennis understanding you know the answers.
I think he is just trying to bait us and to his credit, it's working.
 
#10
Nah, 2009 Federer would have a much better chance against 2015 Djokovic, no doubt. No amount of stats will tell you that.

Overall:

AO: 2009 Fed>>>>> 2015 Fed
FO: 2009 Fed >>> 2015 Fed
Wimb: 2009 Fed > 2015 Fed
USO: 2009 Fed >=2015 Fed.
This. You can clearly see the difference if you watch the matches. Not to mention the Seppi loss at AO and the poor Wawrinka loss at FO. Federer 2015 was consistent but it really wasn't just Djokovic stopping him from winning. As I've posted multiple times, completely take away Djokovic and Federer has 2 slams, 3 masters and the WTF in 2015 - still not a patch on 2006. Of course, it's a bit of a running joke this '2015 Fed>>2006 Fed' but there are a couple out there who seriously claim to believe this
 
#13
Nah, 2009 Federer would have a much better chance against 2015 Djokovic, no doubt. No amount of stats will tell you that.

Overall:

AO: 2009 Fed>>>>> 2015 Fed
FO: 2009 Fed >>> 2015 Fed
Wimb: 2009 Fed > 2015 Fed
USO: 2009 Fed >=2015 Fed.
Djokovic was a harder opponent than Roddick, Del Po, Soderling
 

mike danny

Talk Tennis Guru
#16
Tell me then why were his return stats better in 2015?
Well, I look at 2015 Wimb, where Fed faced baseliners with weak serves in the R4 and QF and Murray in the semis, whose second serve can easily be exploited and it's not hard to figure out how he looked so good on return.

And his supposed better return game in 2015 didn't amount to anything given that he went 4/23 on BP against Djoker at the USO.

But return is not everything. Fed' ground game in 2009 was definitely superior.
 
#19
Better return stats because the field was weak. Everything about 2015 is out of whack statistically because everyone sucked except Djokovic and Federer.
 
#21
You guys can literally check stats. This isn't bait
And @BrokenGears I am genuinely telling you to consider this :

The answer is in here. 2015 style of play was too risky and lacked substance apart from the initial flash. Someone with good return and enough patience would eventually end up exposing Federer lack of stable and regular baseline weapon. Djokovic did that a
lot. Watch their 2011 USO encounter, in the first set both play brilliantly. The difference was the Federer FH was firing and that allowed Federer the cushion to build his game around and gave Djokovic an extra burden of somehow avoiding that wing.
The same can't be done with forecourt aggression, it is too difficult a task in 2010s , especially with GOAT passing machines like Djokovic .

As for 2009 , watch even highlights of these matches and you would know the difference.

Watch Fraud against 2009 Djoker in USO
Watch Fraud against Ralph in AO F for first four sets
Watch Fraud's RG campaign
Watch Fraud's WB campaign


Ask yourself these things

Could Fred in 2015 even compare to the baseline ability on display in each of the example especially the 2009 AO F one(Even if he lost) ?

Then ask yourself if anyone can win a slam in 2010s court being as dependent on serve and forecourt play as Fred 2015 ?

If you have an ounce of Tennis understanding you know the answers.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#23
Nah, 2009 Federer would have a much better chance against 2015 Djokovic, no doubt. No amount of stats will tell you that.

Overall:

AO: 2009 Fed>>>>> 2015 Fed
FO: 2009 Fed >>> 2015 Fed
Wimb: 2009 Fed > 2015 Fed
USO: 2009 Fed >=2015 Fed.
Saying USO 15 >= USO 09 is also being generous. imo it should be a straight >
 
#25
Stats tell me that he was 2 sets away from the calendar slam in 2009 and only made 2 finals in 2015.

Also not shocked to see his return numbers increase over time with the larger racket and on courts that continued to get slower and slower.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
#26
He reached 2 in 2015. Lost to peaking Wawrinka and fluke loss to rando Seppi. It happens. He lost to broken hip Kuerten in 2004 as well as you know
It happens ?
The AO 3R loss to seppi (a big pigeon and not even top 20 guy) is fed's only loss before semi from 04 to 18.

Losing to Stan in straights ?
When he beat a similar form delpo in RG 09 semi.

Yeah, similar years!!

It happens only when a player is considerably worse (non-prime year 15) than prime year (09)

Oh and kuerten turned back the years and played very well when he beat fed at RG 04.
 
#27
Tell me then why were his return stats better in 2015?
Because he played different people at different times in different form. Since these things are somewhat nebulous yet directly affect performance statistics, I tend to preferentially go with my visual perception and mine the stats as an ancilliary exercise. Besides, you're happy to absorb and regurgitate the return stats, yet obviously dismiss the slam wins and finals stats. Why? Because you've cherry picked a mitigation for it, whilst arbitrarily immunizing the other. In short: 2009erer > 2015erer.
 

mike danny

Talk Tennis Guru
#28
He reached 2 in 2015. Lost to peaking Wawrinka and fluke loss to rando Seppi. It happens. He lost to broken hip Kuerten in 2004 as well as you know
It proves that in 2015 he wasn't better than in 2009 or even equal. You can't just excuse every loss by saying sh1t happens.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
#32
Strength and depth of the field was stronger in 2009 than 2015.

Put Federer 2009 version in 2015 with Nole I think they both would have won 2 slams each. Federer wins FO/Wimbledon, Nole wins AO/USO.
Year end #1 would be a toss-up.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
#34
OP exposing himself. Proclaims to be objective and believe in stats above all else but doesn't have the cohones to stand by them - instead he cops out by saying "equal or better" when 2015 clearly has superior "stats" :-D
 
#35
It happens ?
The AO 3R loss to seppi (a big pigeon and not even top 20 guy) is fed's only loss before semi from 04 to 18.

Losing to Stan in straights ?
When he beat a similar form delpo in RG 09 semi.

Yeah, similar years!!

It happens only when a player is considerably worse (non-prime year 15) than prime year (09)

Oh and kuerten turned back the years and played very well when he beat fed at RG 04.
Then why can't the same logic be applied to Stan lol? Regarding Kuerten
 
#38
And @BrokenGears I am genuinely telling you to consider this :

The answer is in here. 2015 style of play was too risky and lacked substance apart from the initial flash. Someone with good return and enough patience would eventually end up exposing Federer lack of stable and regular baseline weapon. Djokovic did that a
lot. Watch their 2011 USO encounter, in the first set both play brilliantly. The difference was the Federer FH was firing and that allowed Federer the cushion to build his game around and gave Djokovic an extra burden of somehow avoiding that wing.
The same can't be done with forecourt aggression, it is too difficult a task in 2010s , especially with GOAT passing machines like Djokovic .

As for 2009 , watch even highlights of these matches and you would know the difference.
Give me some stats for this superior ground game. How do you measure that anyway?
 
#41
Strength and depth of the field was stronger in 2009 than 2015.

Put Federer 2009 version in 2015 with Nole I think they both would have won 2 slams each. Federer wins FO/Wimbledon, Nole wins AO/USO.
Year end #1 would be a toss-up.
I don't think so.
RG 2015ovic would require best of Fraud to be beaten, 2009 was won on sheer will, except the final where he just GOATED. For an entire tournament Novak takes this.

At USO 2015 Djokovic wasn't himself , especially the final where he played brilliantly only when down . Fraud was flying in 2009 , he even should have beaten Delpo and he proved he could in the same match. Fred would take it.

WB 2015 would go to Djokovic tbf. Nothing is stopping that beast except Fred from 2003-06

AO 2015 would go to Fred though. This wasn't truly peak Djokovic edition and 2009 AO Fraud is in my eyes his best version on plexicushion.The ballstriking and movement he was capable of that year is a notch above Djokovic in 2015 AO . That guy was outplaying 200% Winner mode Ralph for a good stretch and led by 5-6 points going into the fifth. That's usually enough for a victory in 4 sets. But Fraud is Fraud.


So, FO and WB to Novak
AO and USO to Fraud
 
#48
Because he played different people at different times in different form. Since these things are somewhat nebulous yet directly affect performance statistics, I tend to preferentially go with my visual perception and mine the stats as an ancilliary exercise. Besides, you're happy to absorb and regurgitate the return stats, yet obviously dismiss the slam wins and finals stats. Why? Because you've cherry picked a mitigation for it, whilst arbitrarily immunizing the other. In short: 2009erer > 2015erer.
You're " visual perception " equals jack squat. Stop acting elitist

Oh I know, just I think Djokovic was a better opponent in Wimby and USO than Soderling and Roddick. 2015 Fed would do fine in 2009.
 
#49
Give me some stats for this superior ground game. How do you measure that anyway?

By watching of course. And I am 100% sure you would see the difference.
Before @BrokenGears you laugh about this
Consider:
Ask yourself would you not be able to see the difference between 2010 USO F And 2011 USO F Djokovic ?

Now ask yourself who was better from back of the court or in fact in every department ?

2011 was on another planet.

Now go and compare stats keeping in mind the Service stats of Rapha in 2010.

Both years are very similar.


Moral of the story: Stats mean nothing without logical human interpretation attached .
 
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