Federer 2017 > Nadal 2022

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Sunshine dbl not good enough for ya?

Hardest back to back Masters to win.
What makes you believe that?

Madrid and Rome I'd say. I know there's not much sample size since Madrid used to be an indoor hc event, but currently with Nadal and Novak around, it's probably the hardest double.

In terms of history though, I'd probably even say that Canada + Cinci is the harder double.

Seven men have won the sunshine double. Courier, Chang, Sampras, Rios, Agassi, Federer and Djokovic. Djokovic has done it 4 times. Federer 3.

But Canada + Cinci only 5 men have done it in the open era, two of them back when it used to be on clay. Since they were switched to hc (Canada in 1979 and Cinci 1978), only 4 men have done it - Agassi, Rafter, Roddick and Nadal.
 

Old Gregg

Rookie
What makes you believe that?

Madrid and Rome I'd say. I know there's not much sample size since Madrid used to be an indoor hc event, but currently with Nadal and Novak around, it's probably the hardest double.

In terms of history though, I'd probably even say that Canada + Cinci is the harder double.

Seven men have won the sunshine double. Courier, Chang, Sampras, Rios, Agassi, Federer and Djokovic. Djokovic has done it 4 times. Federer 3.

But Canada + Cinci only 5 men have done it in the open era, two of them back when it used to be on clay. Since they were switched to hc (Canada in 1979 and Cinci 1978), only 4 men have done it - Agassi, Rafter, Roddick and Nadal.
Climate in both indy and Miami.

Plus, players speaking of it being the most difficult to do.
 
Season openers 20-1 each

don’t think it’s even up for debate which season is more impressive.
Federer beat nadal on route to 3 of his titles (Aus, Indian wells, miami) strength of competition was much higher, 1 GS and 2 masters compared to a GS some 250 glorified warm up and a 500. Put on top of that Nadal is vulturing due to Djokovic being thrown out of top competitions left right and centre (Let them play europe clay swing please tennis gods)

Put 17 era Federer in 2022 he breezes past 2022 nadal, and it’s not even close.
except the year isn't over yet. Nadal can win FO and US open and you would look stupid with this post
 

initialize

Hall of Fame
2017 Ol’ Rog played at a higher level than 2022 RAFA has so far, but he also skipped the entire CC season. It’s too early to say that 2017 Ol’ Rog had the better year.

We also have to keep in mind that RAFA broke through at 18-19 while Ol’ Rog broke through at 21-22. RAFA has even moar miles in his body at a similar stage in their careers.
Very true point, but also keep in mind Ol’ Rog had significantly tougher competition in 2017 than Nadal has for this year. Any of Nadal’s victories will be heavily asterisked, just like AO this year, unless Djokovic plays and faces him
 
Very true point, but also keep in mind Ol’ Rog had significantly tougher competition in 2017 than Nadal has for this year. Any of Nadal’s victories will be heavily asterisked, just like AO this year, unless Djokovic plays and faces him


It was so far...the competition was the weakest it's ever been in the 2nd half of 2017. And I say this as the biggest Ol' Rog fan ever. No asterisk on the victories. Joker knew the rules months in advance. He made his bed, now he has to lie in it. The only one keeping him from competing is himself. Besides, it looks like he should be full go for the CC season and Wimby.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
The season has not ended yet. We will determine who had the best season at the end of the year.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Djoko wasn't even injured in AO 17. just got upset by Istomin. had won Doha just before AO beating Murray in a good match. These 2 were the favorites and both got upset due to not bringing enough level along with some good play from Istomin and Misca Zverev respectively.
Post-Doha, they both were already playing low level at the beginning of 2017. Both Murray and Djokovic were non-factors in the first half of 2017 (excluding Murray's decent RG run).
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Post-Doha, they both were already playing low level at the beginning of 2017. Both Murray and Djokovic were non-factors in the first half of 2017 (excluding Murray's decent RG run).
Just saying Djokovic wasn't injured in AO 17.
 

initialize

Hall of Fame
Everyone except Djokovic knows this - who btw would have demolished later-year Fed, as he always does.

Damn, RF17 was so "great" he almost lost that 5th set to Nadal... on his own surface.
Yeah, an in-form Nadal who was number 1 that year, plus 5 years younger. That's no easy feat for anyone. Other than Fed, I'm guessing Jiri Vesely could have beat Nadal
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, an in-form Nadal who was number 1 that year, plus 5 years younger. That's no easy feat for anyone. Other than Fed, I'm guessing Jiri Vesely could have beat Nadal
Correction, Rafa was coming back from two crap slam-free seasons, his confidence wasn't high enough yet.
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
Fed had literally every reason not to have confidence in that match and Nadal's the one you're making those excuses for?
I deal with facts, I leave the excuses to the zealous fanboiz questioning my impeccable logic.

RF's 2016 was as crap as 15 (14, 13)... (Or not so much crap as "Djokovic was too good for him".

But RF was playing a slam he won many times, on HC, against a guy UNUSED to having crap slam-free years.

Of which there were two in a row. In which he waa worse than Fed was in those same years. (15, 16.)

RF was used to being third wheel at this point, it was normal to him.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
I deal with facts, I leave the excuses to the zealous fanboiz questioning my impeccable logic.

RF's 2016 was as crap as 15 (14, 13)... (Or not so much crap as "Djokovic was too good for him".

But RF was playing a slam he won many times, on HC, against a guy UNUSED to having crap slam-free years.

Of which there were two in a row. In which he waa worse than Fed was in those same years. (15, 16.)

RF was used to being third wheel at this point, it was normal to him.
For someone who loves to pat himself on the back for his objectivity, this post is anything but objective.

Fed's 2016 was quite poor for even his 2014 and 2015 standards, as the, well, facts, imply. Note, for instance, his 75% win percentage which was down from 2014/2015 by like ten percentage points -- that's HUGE. Funnily enough, it was the same as Nadal's win percentage in 2015 and only slightly higher than Nadal's own 2016, so that's already one point against the "Nadal's 2015-2016 seasons were way worse than Fed's 2016" claim, proven objectively. He also won zero titles in 2016, the first time this has happened since, if I'm correct, 2000, while Nadal did actually claim a Masters in 2016. And it's not like Novak was really stopping him too much: they only met once. After his Wimbledon loss (to Raonic of all people), he pulled out of the rest of the season and had knee surgery. And, of course, his previous three seasons (2013-2015) basically solidifed that, well, Fed was getting left behind by a younger generation: his winning days were over. By all accounts, he should have been happy to even reach the AO QFs, let alone the semis or the final.

I don't get how "being used to being the third wheel at this point" is supposed to indicate that Fed's confidence should have been higher than Nadal's. That's absurd. Wouldn't being used to losses lower your confidence, not raise it? When you think you don't have a shot anymore, when you've had loss after loss handed to you at the big stage for four straight years, how on earth is that a clearly more preferable situation to having two crap years in succession? I'm not even arguing Fed had it tougher, mind; just that his situation and Nadal's were at least comparable and that any difference between them is a tiny one.

He had won the AO many times... in the past. His last win had come in 2010, only one year after Nadal's victory in 2009: they were both similarly far from their last victory at the AO. Nadal had actually come closer to winning the title since and, y'know, he was facing an opponent against whom he should have felt confident beating on this surface. Their previous match there, in 2014, was a straight-sets takedown and Fed had never won a match against Nadal there. The overall head-to-head was in Nadal's favor as well, so that's nothing to worry about. Obviously, this wouldn't have come into play if it was Djokovic he was facing across the net, but this was Federer; Nadal knows he can beat Federer at the AO. And not just Federer, but 35-year-old Federer; surely those five-setters Fed had faced earlier on in the tournament would have taken a toll on him?

There is no way you can justify with facts that Nadal had it monumentally tougher than Federer leading up to the final, and there's no way you can talk about his lack of confidence without even making a passing mention of why Fed shouldn't have been confident either. It's a double standard. Why won't you just admit that, my Objective One?

I think we both know why.
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
For someone who loves to pat himself on the back for his objectivity, this post is anything but objective.

Fed's 2016 was quite poor for even his 2014 and 2015 standards, as the, well, facts, imply. Note, for instance, his 75% win percentage which was down from 2014/2015 by like ten percentage points -- that's HUGE. Funnily enough, it was the same as Nadal's win percentage in 2015 and only slightly higher than Nadal's own 2016, so that's already one point against the "Nadal's 2015-2016 seasons were way worse than Fed's 2016" claim, proven objectively. He also won zero titles in 2016, the first time this has happened since, if I'm correct, 2000, while Nadal did actually claim a Masters in 2016. And it's not like Novak was really stopping him too much: they only met once. After his Wimbledon loss (to Raonic of all people), he pulled out of the rest of the season and had knee surgery. And, of course, his previous three seasons (2013-2015) basically solidifed that, well, Fed was getting left behind by a younger generation: his winning days were over. By all accounts, he should have been happy to even reach the AO QFs, let alone the semis or the final.

I don't get how "being used to being the third wheel at this point" is supposed to indicate that Fed's confidence should have been higher than Nadal's. That's absurd. Wouldn't being used to losses lower your confidence, not raise it? When you think you don't have a shot anymore, when you've had loss after loss handed to you at the big stage for four straight years, how on earth is that a clearly more preferable situation to having two crap years in succession? I'm not even arguing Fed had it tougher, mind; just that his situation and Nadal's were at least comparable and that any difference between them is a tiny one.

He had won the AO many times... in the past. His last win had come in 2010, only one year after Nadal's victory in 2009: they were both similarly far from their last victory at the AO. Nadal had actually come closer to winning the title since and, y'know, he was facing an opponent against whom he should have felt confident beating on this surface. Their previous match there, in 2014, was a straight-sets takedown and Fed had never won a match against Nadal there. The overall head-to-head was in Nadal's favor as well, so that's nothing to worry about. Obviously, this wouldn't have come into play if it was Djokovic he was facing across the net, but this was Federer; Nadal knows he can beat Federer at the AO. And not just Federer, but 35-year-old Federer; surely those five-setters Fed had faced earlier on in the tournament would have taken a toll on him?

There is no way you can justify with facts that Nadal had it monumentally tougher than Federer leading up to the final, and there's no way you can talk about his lack of confidence without even making a passing mention of why Fed shouldn't have been confident either. It's a double standard. Why won't you just admit that, my Objective One?

I think we both know why.
Nope, can't read all this.

Too much.

Next time be succinct. This is a tennis forum, not MIT. Don't care about tennis enough to read essays.

I am sure you made some good points, but... no. Too long.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Nope, can't read all this.

Too much.

Next time be succinct. This is a tennis forum, not MIT. Don't care about tennis enough to read essays.

I am sure you made some good points, but... no. Too long.
I don't know how you must have managed to stay on TTW this long if that was too long for you.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Scary stuff...

We should all run in fear of the skinny Serbian that drinks the toxic water which has been purified by his positive energy and rubs bread on his stomach while he hums inside a couple of dirt piles that his government is trying desperately to turn into a tourist attraction by falsely labelling them as man made pyramids that bestow magical energy to those who believe in them...
You honestly don't see Djokovic causing Nadal any problems when he returns, even on non clay surfaces? I find that hard to believe.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
You honestly don't see Djokovic causing Nadal any problems when he returns, even on non clay surfaces? I find that hard to believe.
Of course he'll give Nadal problems... more than anyone else.

But I sure as hell don't think his return means Nadal is done winning for the rest of the season...
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
I don't know how you must have managed to stay on TTW this long if that was too long for you.
There is a limit to everything, as I'm sure most people would agree.

For example, cinephiles love movies, but would they want a movie to last 57 hours?

The art of conversation (and writing) is communicating your ideas in as little words as possible. Of course, easier said than done, sometimes I go overboard too.
 

Old Gregg

Rookie
Sis, all the more reason for Fed not to struggle and almost lose to him on that surface... considering how allegedly awesome he was that year...

... vulturing in Novak's "absence".
Well he won didn't he?

His 18' final also went to 5 sets. Was that almost losing to Cilic?
 

Rafa24

Hall of Fame
I like how Fed didn't struggle in 2017 but took a MTO before 5th set against stan in Semis and before 5th set against Nadal and was down a break. But yes, MTOerer didn't struggle at all. lol
 
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