Federer 2nd Gulbis 1st serves comparison
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torpantennis
Legend
Very stupid question: My coach has always taught to toss the ball close to the left shoulder on topspin serve. I've always struggled with that thought. Is this a correct advice?
In this case however Federer seems to hit his kick serve over the RIGHT shoulder, not over the left shoulder? Basically he holds his body from rotating the shoulders too much too early, and swings the racquet almost totally on the right side of his body, around the right shoulder. Is this also how a basi topspin serve should be hit?
In this case however Federer seems to hit his kick serve over the RIGHT shoulder, not over the left shoulder? Basically he holds his body from rotating the shoulders too much too early, and swings the racquet almost totally on the right side of his body, around the right shoulder. Is this also how a basi topspin serve should be hit?
I think Federer is not doing what you think he is doing. He tosses the ball roughly to 12 o'clock - basically just in front of his L shoulder but granted it may be a few inches to right of L foot. Then, he is staying to the side with his shoulder (there actually is some shoulder rotation too but not as much as a 1st serve) but he is also pushing up and forward into contact. Due to the pushing up and forward, he making contact closer to above the R shoulder than above the L shoulder. This is advanced and excellent 2nd serve technique. That's my view.
OK, to toss near L shoulder but contact will be nearer R shoulder after forward movement, rotation and cartwheel action of shoulders where L drops down as R shoulder goes up.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
why a Flat serve for G and a Kick for Fed, ? I know Fed can lead with a Kick, but that doesn't make it a good comparison for any reason, or is it to show the difference between flat and kick serves?
Why not flat Fed vs Kick for Fed? Why 2 different serves for different servers?
Why not flat Fed vs Kick for Fed? Why 2 different serves for different servers?
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crash1929
Hall of Fame
Interesting question. This may be one area where videos and forums fall a little short relative to live pro coaching. I'm beginning to see how important the exact placement of the ball is. Slight changes can have huge affects on power and spin. I realized I was tossing my ball too far behind me after I saw the Taylor Dent video on youtube where he says he tosses it right over his head. When I made the slight change I saw and felt a big difference (more power, more spin/kick). So I'm aiming for right over my head at the moment, not the shoulders.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
When you take a side view video of your serve, how much does your head move forward between the toss release and impact?
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Can you post a link on the dent video? I'm trying to better my serve.
crash1929
Hall of Fame
THIS IS SOMETHING I'M NOT SURE ON. I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT ALL NIGHT AND MORNING. Watching Edberg vs Lendl now and noticing how Edberg seems to really lean into the court on his toss.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
To me this has been a very informative display, again by Toly, of some rare FYB overhead videos.
There are Salazar spin serves pictures, copied from FYB videos.
The balls tosses are completely different.
1. Kick serve – contact point is above Salazar’s head.
2. Slice serve – contact point is above Salazar’s shoulder.
There are no identical tosses in pro tennis for different spin serves. :shock:
I don't know how typical Frank Salazar's positioning is of that for the high level servers.
To confirm this issue by observing how far forward the head moves forward, look at videos of high level serves from the side view (side view along baseline or, better yet, side view of the ball's trajectory). How far forward does the head move?
You can move forward much less also but it probably reduces pace and is not what the higher level servers are doing.
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5263
G.O.A.T.
Thank you, but I need some constructive criticism.
Great presentation, but what is the intent to display?
See next picture.
Are you showing that toss in more toward 11 o'c? Federer will vary 2nd serve toss and yes, he will pull it toward 11 o'c and not as far into the court if he wants higher bounce and safer serve. Other times he leaves it in a more aggressive position, near 12 o'c and more into court.
This is probably unique picture.
At and after contacts the right arms of both players move down and Federer racquet moves up but Gulbis downward. Why?
Federer actively applies wrist ulnar deviation that moves racquet up to generate topspin. Gulbis doesn’t want topspin so he forcefully stops ulnar deviation. Thus, in both cases forearm muscle should be active to make available different wrist ulnar deviation.
About racquet face orientation see next picture.
Direction of the ball is different than racquet face orientation. Due to Federer racquet upward motion which drugs the ball upward he must close the racquet -13°.
Gulbis doesn’t create Magnus force (no topspin) and has to direct ball more down -5°.
Gulbis rotates upper body much more energetically than Federer.
In case of flat serve upper body rotation around spine is main body motion. In event of kick serve cartwheel should prevail.
