Federer and Nadal and 90% Winning Seasons

McEnroeisanartist

Hall of Fame
We all know that Federer has had three seasons with a winning percentage above 90%. Amazingly, he did this from 2004-2006. Do you think Nadal will ever have one season with a winning percentage above 90%? Nadal came close in 2005 at 89% and 2008 at 88%. For 2010, he has a winning percentage at 88%.


Thoughts?
 

cp37070

Rookie
Possible. He's been close. And he's been close all year. Once maybe but I don't see 2 or 3 in a row. But it will be much harder for him than it was for Federer who mostly lost to Nadal in those years. Nadal is more vulnerable because of the length of the HC season.
 

g.hull

New User
Nadal has really tough competition
too win 9 out of 10 matches at least is phenomenal and sounds almost impossible with people like Federer who is still tough, Delpo,Murray,Djokovic, etc
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal has really tough competition
too win 9 out of 10 matches at least is phenomenal and sounds almost impossible with people like Federer who is still tough, Delpo,Murray,Djokovic, etc

I agree, 31 year old ljubicic, Guillermo garcia lopez etc are very tough competition :)
 
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powerangle

Legend
Nadal is a bit more vulnerable to lose early (while away from clay) than Federer was at his peak. Doubtful he will do it, but if he will, it'll probably have to be this year and maybe next.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
So what?

Steffi Graf had more than 90 % in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996.
That is TEN seasons!

Navratilova had only seven.
Seles just two ...

best to keep ATP and WTA separate ... men's field has more depth

BTW chris evert had 90% career winning percentage !
 
We all know that Federer has had three seasons with a winning percentage above 90%. Amazingly, he did this from 2004-2006. Do you think Nadal will ever have one season with a winning percentage above 90%? Nadal came close in 2005 at 89% and 2008 at 88%. For 2010, he has a winning percentage at 88%.


Thoughts?

88-89% is the same as 90%, so Rafa has already done it 3 times. Of course, the bigger achievement would be to win 4 or 5 straight slams, that's all that really matters.
 

BHud

Hall of Fame
88-89% is the same as 90%, so Rafa has already done it 3 times. Of course, the bigger achievement would be to win 4 or 5 straight slams, that's all that really matters.

Right...? And runner-up is the same as champion if it's a close 5 setter...
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Who cares about this 90%

It's only you that doesn't care. One of the reason why people put Lendl above of Nadal b/c he had many stats ahead of him. And one of them is having multiple years winning over 90%. Capiche?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
And who could say lendl is above nadal?? :shock:

What is so shock about. I'm sure many fans would say Nadal after he won the USO. But there are fans out there look further in details not just Rafa 9 slams vs Lendl 8. Lendl accomplished in many areas that Rafa is behind(or hasn't achieved)...year end championship, year end #1, weeks at #1, total titles, 19 GS finals, etc, etc, etc....
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
He's played the GOAT in 6 of his 9 slam titles. Doesn't get any tougher than that. Who did Federer beat in his 16 slam titles?

They play in the same era. Roger joined the tour in 1998 and Rafa in 2001. All of their slams are won against the same field. Enough of this silliness about weak/strong era!
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Funny how the ****s embrace the made up 'golden slam' but balk at 90%, an actual number that exists :)

Winning the Olympic is just one tournament. But to sustain a 90%+ throughout the entire year is a lot harder. Capiche?
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Again, how does 90% differ enough from 89% to hold any significance? Talk about REACHING for an achievement. lol.

Lendl was very close in winning W. Mac was very close at RG. Borg was very close at the USO. So close is not good enough. If it is, then a "career slam" isn't that prestige. The same with 90%+....you either have it or you don't. Capiche?
 

SirGounder

Hall of Fame
Again, how does 90% differ enough from 89% to hold any significance? Talk about REACHING for an achievement. lol.

You must be the person who whines to the teacher about an 89.5% should be an A-. Yes some teachers will do that for you but other won't. 89 ain't quite 90 is it?

Then again, I don't care much for these random stats because they don't tell the whole story.
 
Whether a player has won 90% or 89% isn't the same as a player for example winning a singles Gold Medal or not. Gold medals are worth a lot more than 1% of a stat that few people will ever talk about. I guess its good for messageboards though, to start a thread with. Won't make a difference in someone's career though and how that career compares to another.
 

TheLoneWolf

Banned
I have a recipe for Nadal to achieve a 100% winning percentage rate:

1. Play RG.
2. Play Wimbledon.
3. Play Federer as often as he can. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Play less matches, like Federer does.
 
What is so shock about. I'm sure many fans would say Nadal after he won the USO. But there are fans out there look further in details not just Rafa 9 slams vs Lendl 8. Lendl accomplished in many areas that Rafa is behind(or hasn't achieved)...year end championship, year end #1, weeks at #1, total titles, 19 GS finals, etc, etc, etc....

Well that doesn't make sense anyway, lendl is a retired player and you're comparing him to someone who's just in the middle of his career and would be able to break most of lendl's records.

Let me inform you that nadal's been already in 11 GS finals over the last 6 years, Given lendl's long lasting career, it wouldn't make much sense since nadal's career isn't over yet...

Nadal's been in the top 2 for most part of last 6 years, and at #1 for almost 2 years now. So he has a great chance of breaking lendl's weeks at #1 and total years at #1 records.

Take that with nadal winning DC 3 times, olympic gold medal once and also winning Career Grand Slam, something that lendl was unable to do. Everything so far witnesses rafa's lead over lendl.

And nadal's not finished yet...
 

ZhingJ

Banned
Ok this is not for the regular *********s but for the truly ******** *********s. To make it clear 90% > 89%. They are not the same number. One begins with a 9 and ends with a 0 and the other begins with an 8 and ends with a 9. In fact in many school grading systems if you have 90% you get an A+ whereas with 89% you are stuck with an A. So to repeat 90>89. They are not the same number.
 
Ok this is not for the regular *********s but for the truly ******** *********s. To make it clear 90% > 89%. They are not the same number. One begins with a 9 and ends with a 0 and the other begins with an 8 and ends with a 9. In fact in many school grading systems if you have 90% you get an A+ whereas with 89% you are stuck with an A. So to repeat 90>89. They are not the same number.

But this is not a school grading system and If only had you studied a little bit statistics then you'd know the truth that there's not much difference between 1 and only 1 percent...

Sure mathematically, 90>89 as is 10>9, 9>8, 8>7 etc etc..., But when we have two players with 89+ percentage, then one single percent would not make much difference. Surely if fed was 95 and nadal 89 it would've been much different than now that it's 90 vs 89.
 

Gangsta

Rookie
Ok this is not for the regular *********s but for the truly ******** *********s. To make it clear 90% > 89%. They are not the same number. One begins with a 9 and ends with a 0 and the other begins with an 8 and ends with a 9. In fact in many school grading systems if you have 90% you get an A+ whereas with 89% you are stuck with an A. So to repeat 90>89. They are not the same number.

Even so, I'd think the sample space would be different in both scenarios. My guess would be that Nadal has entered more tournaments than Federer. So, 89% over a lot more matches is actually better than 90% in fewer. Anyways, no numbers from me, just guessing since Federer doesn't play as much outside of the slams.
 

ZhingJ

Banned
But this is not a school grading system and If only had you studied a little bit statistics then you'd know the truth that there's not much difference between 1 and only 1 percent...

Sure mathematically, 90>89 as is 10>9, 9>8, 8>7 etc etc..., But when we have two players with 89+ percentage, then one single percent would not make much difference. Surely if fed was 95 and nadal 89 it would've been much different than now that it's 90 vs 89.

Actually that logic breaks down. Because for the retards 1% is very small and meaningless. To another **** 2% is a big enough difference. To another 3% will do it. And so forth. By that analogy 50% is not that different from 100%. Hell in 2 attempts, 100% = 2/2 and 50% = 1/2, a difference of ONLY 1!!! Wow.

To make it clearer ---> If for example you say 2% is a big enough difference and 1% is not, then the difference between the differences is only 1%. Therefore it is close enough. Therefore a 2% difference is the same as a 1% difference, ad infinitum. Do you get it? Bottom line. 90%>89%, no matter how you slice it or spin it.
 

ZhingJ

Banned
Even so, I'd think the sample space would be different in both scenarios. My guess would be that Nadal has entered more tournaments than Federer. So, 89% over a lot more matches is actually better than 90% in fewer. Anyways, no numbers from me, just guessing since Federer doesn't play as much outside of the slams.

Yeah sure if 89% is over 100 matches and 90% over 10 matches. But that's not the case here. Check the records.
 
Actually that logic breaks down. Because for the retards 1% is very small and meaningless. To another **** 2% is a big enough difference. To another 3% will do it. And so forth. By that analogy 50% is not that different from 100%. Hell in 2 attempts, 100% = 2/2 and 50% = 1/2, a difference of ONLY 1!!! Wow.

To make it clearer ---> If for example you say 2% is a big enough difference and 1% is not, then the difference between the differences is only 1%. Therefore it is close enough. Therefore a 2% difference is the same as a 1% difference, ad infinitum. Do you get it? Bottom line. 90%>89%, no matter how you slice it or spin it.


Pointless. It's funny to see how you're actually trying to prove that 1% is like 100% of difference when it's not true. Actually one single percent is not comparable to 10%, as is not 100 to 50% in your post above...

I never said 2% is big gap and 1% isn't (As they're both pretty much the same), But you can see that I said i.e. 95 to 88 (That's 7% of difference which is a lot compared to 1,2 or 3%).

I repeat again that 89 or 90% won't make a big difference just for a single percent but it's true that mathematically 90>89.
 

ZhingJ

Banned
Pointless. It's funny to see how you're actually trying to prove that 1% is like 100% of difference when it's not true. Actually one single percent is not comparable to 10%, as is not 100 to 50% in your post above...

I never said 2% is big gap and 1% isn't (As they're both pretty much the same), But you can see that I said i.e. 95 to 88 (That's 7% of difference which is a lot compared to 1,2 or 3%).

I repeat again that 89 or 90% won't make a big difference just for a single percent but it's true that mathematically 90>89.

No you miss the point. The point is not that 1% is the same as 100%. The point is that 1% is not 0. You are introducing a subjective interpretation into mathematical rigour.

For you 7% is a lot but not 6%, right, or 5% is ok? In other words, what is the cut-off point? And what is the difference between YOUR cut-off point and the next acceptable point? :) I hope you are finally getting it.
 
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MixieP

Hall of Fame
I like to read these in-depth discussions. The attention to detail! The commitment to the Art of Tennis! The willingness to engage in dialogue! The sheer brilliance and scholarship displayed here... It's an honour to be a member of this community. In short, I'm in awe. :)
 

ZhingJ

Banned
I like to read these in-depth discussions. The attention to detail! The commitment to the Art of Tennis! The willingness to engage in dialogue! The sheer brilliance and scholarship displayed here... It's an honour to be a member of this community. In short, I'm in awe. :)

Mixie please, let the males do the squawking whilst you cheerlead on the sides like a good woman.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
best to keep ATP and WTA separate ... men's field has more depth

BTW chris evert had 90% career winning percentage !


I don't think Evert had 10 years above 90 %.
Steffi started to play at age 13 and of course had a lot of losses in the first 3 years.
 

namelessone

Legend
Really, is this the best some of you can come up with? Why didn't Nadal have a 90% winning season yet? Funny ass s**t. He had a 89,88 and in 2010 he will probably finish around 87-88. We speak of 1-2% but that's maybe 2-3 more matches lost in the overall ecuation. And not big matches at that. No one can tell me that Nadal was full throttle in queens and bangkok, but those still count as two losses in a otherwise stellar year.

Maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't Nadal the youngest guy to have 400 wins in almost 500 atp matches in his career? I'd say that's pretty freaking good considering that most of his matches occur on his worst surface(whereas Fed's occured on his best surface). Imagine a tour made of 65% clay like we have with hc today. Nadal would probably have 90% winning rate year after year.
 

vllaznia

Semi-Pro
Really, is this the best some of you can come up with? Why didn't Nadal have a 90% winning season yet? Funny ass s**t. He had a 89,88 and in 2010 he will probably finish around 87-88. We speak of 1-2% but that's maybe 2-3 more matches lost in the overall ecuation. And not big matches at that. No one can tell me that Nadal was full throttle in queens and bangkok, but those still count as two losses in a otherwise stellar year.

Maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't Nadal the youngest guy to have 400 wins in almost 500 atp matches in his career? I'd say that's pretty freaking good considering that most of his matches occur on his worst surface(whereas Fed's occured on his best surface). Imagine a tour made of 65% clay like we have with hc today. Nadal would probably have 90% winning rate year after year.

Calm down man, the point that some are making is that Nadal in his best year was not as dominant as Federer was. Remember in 2007 when federer had 3 slams 2 masters and the masters cup and still was said he was not as dominant as in 2004-2006. Nadal was very good on slams and clay masters bu on the other tournaments he wasn's so dominant like the Federer's 2006 or Mcenroe's 1984 when he had just 3 freaking losses while Nadal has 8 losses until now.
 

piece

Professional
Pointless. It's funny to see how you're actually trying to prove that 1% is like 100% of difference when it's not true. Actually one single percent is not comparable to 10%, as is not 100 to 50% in your post above...

I never said 2% is big gap and 1% isn't (As they're both pretty much the same), But you can see that I said i.e. 95 to 88 (That's 7% of difference which is a lot compared to 1,2 or 3%).

I repeat again that 89 or 90% won't make a big difference just for a single percent but it's true that mathematically 90>89.

You probably want to avoid reasoning this way as it results in paradox.

If one were to take the rule you're trying to establish - that a difference of 1% in annual match records is irrelevant - and generalise it, one could prove that 89% is just as good as 90%, that 88% is just as good as 89%, that 87% is just as good as 86% .....that 1% is just as good as 2%. Thus proving that winning 1% of your matches is just as good as winning 90%. This is soritical reasoning, and it is almost universally agreed that to reason this way is to reason incorrectly.

For an in depth explanation of the paradox associated with this kind of reasoning, see http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/sorites-paradox/

EDIT: Oh, and also, Mcenroe holds the ATP record for the highest winning percentage in a calendar year (1984) at 96.5%, Federer's best year (2005) is 95.3%. We don't say that Federer jointly holds the record with Mac just because it's close, do we? So these "small" differences can really be quite big.
 
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namelessone

Legend
Calm down man, the point that some are making is that Nadal in his best year was not as dominant as Federer was. Remember in 2007 when federer had 3 slams 2 masters and the masters cup and still was said he was not as dominant as in 2004-2006. Nadal was very good on slams and clay masters bu on the other tournaments he wasn's so dominant like the Federer's 2006 or Mcenroe's 1984 when he had just 3 freaking losses while Nadal has 8 losses until now.

Fed's prime:

2004: Enters 17 singles tourneys, was 74-6 end of the year(3 GS WON,TMC, 3 MS)

2005: Enters 15 singles tourneys, has just 4 losses that year(3 GS won, 4 MS)

2006: Entered 17 tourneys, just 5 losses(3 GS won, 4 MS, TMC)

2007: Entered 16 tourneys, with 9 losses(3 GS won, 2 MS, TMC)

In 2008 he entered 19(15 losses,2 at TMC), in 09' he entered 15(12 losses overall,2 at TMC), in 2010 he has 20 so far(11 loses) but will play probably play shanghai,paris and TMC.

Obviously Fed has outperformed Nadal in consistency, but at the majors IMO, cause Fed rarely played minor events whereas Nadal was more inclined to play small events in the 2004-2007 period and even beyond that. People here are talking about win percentages, not taking into consideration that Fed actually plays few tourneys for a pro(I'm talking about singles). He had a high efficiency in his prime cause he scheduled wisely and played on preferred surfaces 70% of the time.

We don't even know Nadal's prime yet(let's say 2008 and 2010 so far) but since he started winning slams, Nadal has usually played more tourneys than Fed, more often than not on his worst surface. Not to mention the fact that they are five freaking years apart and their development has been quite different.

In 2005 Nadal played 21 tourneys, had 10 losses(88,76% win percentage)
In 2006 Nadal played 16 tourneys, had 12 losses(83,1 % win percentage)
In 2007 Nadal played 20 tourneys, had 15 losses(82,35% win percentage)

In 2008(peak year let's say) he played 20 tourneys, had 11 losses(88,17% win percentage), one of those losses being a retirement in Paris and the other him being dead on his feet in chennai final.

In 2009 he played 17 events, had 14 losses(3 of those coming in TMC) with a 82,93% win percentage.

In 2010 he has played 20 events so far and has 8 losses and is 88,41% at the moment.

There's no doubt that Fed was and still is more efficient in picking his battles but tbh, considering the fact that Nadal is still growing as a player,that he plays 60% of his matches on his worst surface and on average, enters more tourneys, I'm surprised at the high win percentage he's had over the years.

Also, and I shouldn't even be saying this, it matters what you win more than what you lose. In theory, you could win 4 GS and have 15 losses in other tourneys in the same year but you would clearly be the most successful player that year, no matter what your overall win percentage would be. Nadal could enter 5 minor tourneys in a row right now, play 2-3 rounds in each, gain a couple of million bucks, lose/tank while bringing his win percentage down quite a bit but in the eyes of most he would still be the most successful player right now.
 
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vllaznia

Semi-Pro
In 2010 he has played 20 events so far and has 8 losses and is 88,41% at the moment.
.

Also, and I shouldn't even be saying this, it matters what you win more than what you lose. In theory, you could win 4 GS and have 15 losses in other tourneys in the same year but you would clearly be the most successful player that year, no matter what your overall win percentage would be. Nadal could enter 5 minor tourneys in a row right now, play 2-3 rounds in each, gain a couple of million bucks, lose/tank while bringing his win percentage down quite a bit but in the eyes of most he would still be the most successful player right now.

Are you sure that Nadal has played 20 events until now there are other 4 events to come. Of course Nadal is the most successful player this year and is one of the best years ever but when speak about dominance its the ability to win everywhere and against anyone. Federer in 2005-2006 did not loose against some like Ljubicic, Roddick, Garcia Lopez, etc.
 

namelessone

Legend
Are you sure that Nadal has played 20 events until now there are other 4 events to come. Of course Nadal is the most successful player this year and is one of the best years ever but when speak about dominance its the ability to win everywhere and against anyone. Federer in 2005-2006 did not loose against some like Ljubicic, Roddick, Garcia Lopez, etc.

Federer won against most but not against anyone. He never figured out Nadal on clay, not at RG anyway. He was close though. Yes, I said that Fed was more dominant but that he also knew where and when to play. I mean come on, Fed had a terrific year in 05(to me, maybe just as good as 2006 in terms of playing level) "ruined" by a loss at TMC to Nalbandian. He had just 4 losses, three of those coming against men on a mission, safin's run in AO, Nadal's in RG and Nalby's in TMC. And the sick part is that he had a very real shot in all of those as well.

But look at how many he played, just 15 the whole year. To compare, in 2010 Fed will probably end with 22-23 tourneys played, that's 7 or 8 more(so of course he will have more losses in the end). Federer had the terrific ability to schedule his best while playing his best tennis. If he overplayed in that period, even with his style, it's possible that he wouldn't have performed as well.

And as I've said, though Fed is terrific on clay(only guy to beat Nadal twice), he is lucky that the tour is slanted towards his best surface, HC. I mean Fed lost on clay to guys like mantilla,phillipoussis,old costa,jiri novak,gasquet. He was in real trouble against "clay legends" like acasuso,haas at the RG 09'. He lost sets in RG to guys like massu,monfils,phm(known as king of chokers),montanes,robredo(with a breadstick). Do you see Federer losing a set to any of these guys on hard or grass in a slam?

Nadal's win percentage in a tour played 65% on clay would be mind boggling if he can do 80% wins playing most of the time on his worst surface.
 
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vllaznia

Semi-Pro
Federer won against most but not against anyone. He never figured out Nadal on clay, not at RG anyway. He was close though. Yes, I said that Fed was more dominant but that he also knew where and when to play. I mean come on, Fed had a terrific year in 05(to me, maybe just as good as 2006 in terms of playing level) "ruined" by a loss at TMC to Nalbandian. He had just 4 losses, three of those coming against men on a mission, safin's run in AO, Nadal's in RG and Nalby's in TMC. And the sick part is that he had a very real shot in all of those as well.
.

I didnt say Federer won everywhere or against anyone but he was closer to make a perfect year than Nadal ever was.As you said in 3 of his 4 losses in 2005 he had match points.By the way Nadal has played just 14 events until now not 20 as you mentioned.
 

namelessone

Legend
I didnt say Federer won everywhere or against anyone but he was closer to make a perfect year than Nadal ever was.As you said in 3 of his 4 losses in 2005 he had match points.By the way Nadal has played just 14 events until now not 20 as you mentioned.

I stand corrected:)

Goddam ATP site fooled me. That's probably the nr. of tourneys they are programmed for. I think.

55087413.jpg
 

vllaznia

Semi-Pro
I stand corrected:)

Goddam ATP site fooled me. That's probably the nr. of tourneys they are programmed for. I think.

Yes it is the number of events that they programmed for, until now he has entered 14 and i think he will play another 4 tourneys that makes 18 tourneys in a year and that is just one more than Federer's of 2006 where Federer did loose 5 matches while Nadal has lost 8 matches with 4 tourneys still to play.
 

namelessone

Legend
Off topic, but holy crap, some guy play A LOT of tournaments. Obviously they have to, to get money and ranking points but damn, guys like Serra,Russell,Anderson,Granollers,Chiudinelli,Clement,Becker,Chardy,Seppi,Starace,
Becker,Berrer were scheduled to play over 30 tourneys this year.

It's clear that most will be out in the first rounds but still.
 
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