Federer Backhand Eurosport Critique

[Deleted member 733170]

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml

What sticks out for me is that Federer is hitting 10kmh quicker on the backhand wing than he was in 2012. That’s more than a marginal improvement, it’s verging on revolutionary.

I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

The larger racket has obviously played a very significant role in permitting this improvement. You also have to admire his dedication to improve so late in his career.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

 

[TheMaestro1990]

He is not playing better than ever. He has a huge weakness nowadays, defending in the corners, especially off his forehand wing. But last year he has been really good at hiding that weakness. Another factor is that the competition weren't good enough to exploit that weakness either, so it goes both ways. Imagine a Djokovic 2011, he would have a field day with this Federer if he got him on his back foot. I do agree though that Federer is and has been playing exceptionally well for his age and has indeed revolutionized his own game to an extent no other player has done before him to my knowledge. But to say he is better than ever? Give me a break, he was better back in 2012 even if his level last year in Indian Wells was pretty darn scary.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

He is not playing better than ever. He has a huge weakness nowadays, defending in the corners, especially off his forehand wing. But last year he has been really well to hide that weakness. Another factor is that the competition weren't good enough to exploit that weakness either, so it goes both ways. Imagine a Djokovic 2011, he would have a field day with this Federer is´f he got him on his back foot. I do agree though that Federer is and has been playing exceptionally well for his age and has indeed revolutionized his own game to an extent no other player has done before him to my knowledge. But to say he is better than ever? Give me a break, he was better back in 2012 even if his level last year in Indian Wells was pretty darn scary.

The improved backhand, amongst other things, more than makes up for a small loss in defending the corners in my opinion.

While I agree he makes a lot of forehand errors when he is pulled wide, I believe the error count is largely due to shot selection. That is to suggest that in the past he was more defensive while in recent times the shot selection, even from a defensive position, is attacking in nature.

 

[Sysyphus]

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml

What sticks out for me is that Federer is hitting 10kmh quicker on the backhand wing than he was in 2012. That’s more than a marginal improvement, it’s verging on revolutionary.

I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

The larger racket has obviously played a very significant role in permitting this improvement. You also have to admire his dedication to improve so late in his career.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

Yes, that was a nice illustrative analysis.

Another thing that sticks out to me is his improved way of putting his bodyweight into the shots, as they illustrate. It's easy to spot when you watch how he hits it now versus many years ago – he used to fall out of the backhand much more.

Admirable indeed to keep evolving and finding ways to win into old age.

 

[RF-18]

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml

What sticks out for me is that Federer is hitting 10kmh quicker on the backhand wing than he was in 2012. That’s more than a marginal improvement, it’s verging on revolutionary.

I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

The larger racket has obviously played a very significant role in permitting this improvement. You also have to admire his dedication to improve so late in his career.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

It's agenda driven.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Kata released.

 

[PrinceMoron]

The improved backhand, amongst other things, more than makes up for a small loss in defending the corners in my opinion.

Nadal has improved his corner with the loss of Uncle Toni

 

[NatF]

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml

What sticks out for me is that Federer is hitting 10kmh quicker on the backhand wing than he was in 2012. That’s more than a marginal improvement, it’s verging on revolutionary.

I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

The larger racket has obviously played a very significant role in permitting this improvement. You also have to admire his dedication to improve so late in his career.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

This doesn't necessarily tell us that much. It could simply be that Federer is slicing less thus hitting with more kmph on average. Hitting his backhand harder on average than in 2012 doesn't mean he's hitting it harder than say 04-07 either. He was hitting his backhand slightly faster in 2014 compared to 2012 as well - despite 2012 being a clearly higher level of play IMO.

Mentioning what Federer was doing off the backhand side at the AO in 2013 on a much slower court is a bit of a blunder from Eurosport as well.

As far as the SABR goes I think it's something Federer just started doing in practice, not sure he actually had to train and significantly enhance his footwork to pull it off...

 

[EloQuent]

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

Because he's not. Look at videos of 2006, the fluidity, the speed. He's 36, he's not 25 anymore. In 2006 he was virtually unbeatable, in the entire season he lost only to two men.

It's very impressive that he's not only retained top-3 level of play consistently into his 30s (excepting the injured years of 13/16), but even found ways to improve parts of his game.

But overall to say he's a better player now? That's just silly.

 

[Red Rick]

Not sure that 10kph includes all backhands and isn't just a natural by product of slicing less

It's basic human biology that men don't physically peak at 36.

His serve hold% is the same as it's always been
His return game won% is up to 5% lower than at his peak

So the numbers say he's not better than ever, and claiming he is is 100% propaganda

 

[Sysyphus]

This doesn't necessarily tell us that much. It could simply be that Federer is slicing less thus hitting with more kmph on average.

That would be a great objection — if it was a figure of his average speed. But it's not, it's median speed. And his median backhand then and now is surely a drive. So I don't see how some fewer slices would explain this gap.

Moreover, surely it's enough to just use our eyes? He clearly hit his backhand drives with more interest in the 2017 final, nay?

 

[WYK]

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml

What sticks out for me is that Federer is hitting 10kmh quicker on the backhand wing than he was in 2012. That’s more than a marginal improvement, it’s verging on revolutionary.

I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

The larger racket has obviously played a very significant role in permitting this improvement. You also have to admire his dedication to improve so late in his career.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

All the pros have nearly identical skill sets. Some have a bit more here than others. How Fed won was as much to do with his mental game and attributes as his fitness and skills.

I like to put it this way: "Federer wins because he knows how to win. Nadal wins because he doesn't know how to lose."

 

[Gazelle]

So first you compare to 2012 and then you say 'better than ever'. Did Federer's career start in 2012?

 

[NatF]

That would be a great objection — if it was a figure of his average speed. But it's not, it's median speed. And his median backhand then and now is surely a drive. So I don't see how some fewer slices would explain this gap.

Moreover, surely it's enough to just use our eyes? He clearly hit his backhand drives with more interest in the 2017 final, nay?

Didn't see that is said median.

His backhand was certainly pretty glorious in that match, it's hard to think of a big pressure filled match where he's hit it better. I object to some parts of the video but I won't deny he did hit it extremely well in that final and for much of the AO as a whole. Speed on it's own doesn't tell the whole story anyway, it was the angles and the fact he was hitting them hard to the lines that stands out.

Yes it was a backhand clinic.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

The improved backhand, amongst other things, more than makes up for a small loss in defending the corners in my opinion.

Small loss in defending? Balls he used to get with ease he doesn't even bother to run towards nowadays. It's a huge difference. But since Federer has done so well hiding that weakness, not even some of his fans realize how big of a difference it really is lol. Once a truly great opponent comes along, that weakness could very well be exploited I'm afraid.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

Didn't see that is said median.

His backhand was certainly pretty glorious in that match, it's hard to think of a big pressure filled match where he's hit it better. I object to some parts of the video but I won't deny he did hit it extremely well in that final and for much of the AO as a whole. Speed on it's own doesn't tell the whole story anyway, it was the angles and the fact he was hitting them hard to the lines that stands out.

Yes it was a backhand clinic.

Love the picture. Channel your inner 90's Clay. Something everyone should do in 2018.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Small loss in defending? Balls he used to get with ease he doesn't even bother to run towards nowadays. It's a huge difference. But since Federer has done so well hiding that weakness, not even some of his fans realize how big of a difference it really is lol. Once a truly great opponent comes along, that weakness could very well be exploited I'm afraid.

Come on, he beat Nadal 4 times last year. Surely he qualifies as a really ‘great opponent’!?

 

[TheMaestro1990]

Come on, he beat Nadal 4 times last year. Surely he qualifies as a really ‘great opponent’!?

Of course. That's what I mean with Federer being able to hide that weakness extremely well. But the Nadal of last year is not the same Nadal of 2008 or 2013. He has declined in speed, which has hurt him more than anything, especially against Federer.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Of course. That's what I mean with Federer being able to hide that weakness extremely well. But the Nadal of last year is not the same Nadal of 2008 or 2013. He has declined in speed, which has hurt him more than anything, especially against Federer.

So in your view, it appears the only way Federer can prove he has improved is to travel back in time and beat Nadal in 2008!

After comedy comes preposterous!

 

[Wander]

Another thing that people ignore is that Roger now is far more prone to having dips in his level from one day to another than when he was in his mid 20s. There is simply no way that Roger of 2006 would've lost to players of 2017 like Donskoi, Haas and Goffin.

 

[sportsfan1]

Liked the stats on the faster Bh speed. Finally some data to back up the improved BH, even if it's plainly obvious just from watching his matches that he's hitting the drive BH way better than anytime before in his career. It's just faster, more angles, and fewer shanks even from the previous couple of years. It shows with the results. Maybe the bigger racquet helps, but there's definite improvements in technique as well.

It would be interesting to know whether this changes the balance of his matchup against an in-form Djokovic who he struggled with the last few years, but the time window remaining for finding that is quite small.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

So in your view, it appears the only way Federer can prove he has improved is to travel back in time and beat Nadal in 2008!

After comedy comes preposterous!

Well, he has improved certain aspects of his game (backhand, playing offensively clever and generally smarter than he ever has, better serving, better at the net). But his decline physically has hurt him that he can't play the way he used to. He was better around 2006, without a doubt. Just look at his movement and forehand!

 

[helterskelter]

Most players, Federer included, probably continue to improve technically and especially tactically/strategically until very late in their careers. Players improve with practice, and tactical and strategic skills require the sort of decision-making that younger players just can't match until they are at least 25 and possibly closer to 30. On the other hand, Federer and most other players will become worse at moving shortly after they turn 25 or 27, injuries will take their toll psychologically as well as physically, motivation may well diminish, and nerves are likely to get worse. (Nerves in particular will likely be shaped like a bell curve: young players on the verge of a breakthrough and old players hoping to achieve something one last time have more at stake than middle-aged players).

 

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

no real degradation in his forehand

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with the forehand comment. In the 2000's, he just didn't miss forehands, like ever. And they were bullets.

You should watch those US Open Finals he had against Agassi back then.

 

[RF-18]

Because he's not. Look at videos of 2006, the fluidity, the speed. He's 36, he's not 25 anymore. In 2006 he was virtually unbeatable, in the entire season he lost only to two men.

It's very impressive that he's not only retained top-3 level of play consistently into his 30s (excepting the injured years of 13/16), but even found ways to improve parts of his game.

But overall to say he's a better player now? That's just silly.

Ive watched to refresh mmy memory and can't honestly see the difference you people are talking about. For me he looks a half step slower

 

[nikdom]

'Better' is an ambiguous term.

Roger the athlete has declined, but Roger the tennis player has become smarter while the talent is still the same.

I think he's making more out of whatever abilities he has, some of which have declined with age, by focusing on maximizing win % on points and that's what makes it seem like he's 'better' than in his prime.

The racquet has helped surely, but I don't think it should be considered in a vacuum. It's part and parcel of the changes made including the decision to come over the ball on that wing, leaning into the shot, which are all about commitment to aggressive play. He used to be tentative 2012-2014. It's made it possible for him to do what he and his smart coaches came up with.

Annacone spoke about this commitment in one of his podcasts with Jon Wertheim iirc

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml

What sticks out for me is that Federer is hitting 10kmh quicker on the backhand wing than he was in 2012. That’s more than a marginal improvement, it’s verging on revolutionary.

I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

The larger racket has obviously played a very significant role in permitting this improvement. You also have to admire his dedication to improve so late in his career.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

Well, he has improved certain aspects of his game (backhand, playing offensively clever and generally smarter than he ever has, better serving, better at the net). But his decline physically has hurt him that he can't play the way he used to. He was better around 2006, without a doubt. Just look at his movement and forehand!

 

[BeatlesFan]

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

This is getting really old.

Were you actually watching Roger Federer play in 2004-2006 or are you relying on dusty Youtube clips? Because it's the latter, as I suspect, you have no basis of comparison, which is obvious since you're erroneously claiming he's playing "better than ever."

1.His movement is at least 15% off peak level.
2. His movement to his FH corner is off 25% from peak level.
3. He can't play a full schedule anymore
4. Even with a paltry 2017 schedule he was mentally/physically done in by the YEC

Fed won 3/4 slams three times in his career. If he's "playing better than ever," why didn't he replicate this feat in 2017? Answer: because his back was done by mid-year. Fed was basically a non factor after Wimbledon last year. Why? Because he is 36 years old.

No tennis player peaks at 36.

 

[EloQuent]

Fed was basically a non factor after Wimbledon last year

agree with the rest of what you said but have to push back on this. Shanghai and Basel were pretty good.

 

[-NN-]

Didn't see that is said median.

His backhand was certainly pretty glorious in that match, it's hard to think of a big pressure filled match where he's hit it better. I object to some parts of the video but I won't deny he did hit it extremely well in that final and for much of the AO as a whole. Speed on it's own doesn't tell the whole story anyway, it was the angles and the fact he was hitting them hard to the lines that stands out.

Yes it was a backhand clinic.

We pretty much agreed (I think) after the 2017 AO that Federer hit his BH better than he did in the 2009 AO... and that various other areas of the game looked worse...

And that it wasn't one of his most impressive AO performances by pure form and tennis quality.

 

[Deleted member 3771]

Having the tech advatage has certainly given Fed's game a rocket boost. Fed and the rocket scientists didn't spend an unprecedented amount of time and resources on the development of Fed's personalized bazooka for him not to have the tech advantage (same when they developed the 90).

 

[smoledman]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with the forehand comment. In the 2000's, he just didn't miss forehands, like ever. And they were bullets.

You should watch those US Open Finals he had against Agassi back then.

Go watch 2007 AO final vs Gonzo, he was spraying the FH in the first set and that was PEAKY PEAKY SUPER PEAK FED.

 

[Roddick85]

https://video.eurosport.co.uk/tenni...17-australian-open-win_vid1023750/video.shtml
I think this, combined with his better serve, sharper net skills and no real degradation in his forehand which he is also hitting very cleanly is compelling evidence that Federer’s game has continued to evolve to new heights in recent times.

No degredation on the forehand side? You cannot be serious buddy! Sure he's still got a great forehand and all, but it is very much degraded compared to what it once was in the previous decade. He doesn't cover that wing nearly as well as he once did.

Why are some of his fans reluctant to acknowledge that Federer is playing better than ever?

Because he isn't and there's no way a 36 year old player plays better than he did 10 years before, that's common sense. The key element in a player's game is footwork/speed and that's where Fed lost a few steps throughout the years, as any normal aging player would. Fed's incredible talent and an overall weak field is what allowed him to have a "soft landing" in his elder years. Yes he's improved some part of his game and plays smarter to compensate for the physical decline and slower movement, no need to rehash that.

 

[smoledman]

No degredation on the forehand side? You cannot be serious buddy! Sure he's still got a great forehand and all, but it is very much degraded compared to what it once was in the previous decade. He doesn't cover that wing nearly as well as he once did.



Because he isn't and there's no way a 36 year old player plays better than he did 10 years before, that's common sense. The key element in a player's game is footwork/speed and that's where Fed lost a few steps throughout the years, as any normal aging player would. Fed's incredible talent and an overall weak field is what allowed him to have a "soft landing" in his elder years. Yes he's improved some part of his game and plays smarter to compensate for the physical decline and slower movement, no need to rehash that.

Blah blah blah. Federer in 2017 was playing his best ever tennis, bar none. He'd kick 2006 Federer in the nutz.

 

[smoledman]

Federer is definitely the best 'defuser' of big games in the history of the sport. Whether it be Philippoussis, Safin, Roddick, Isner, Karlovic, Groth, Tsonga, etc...

 

[NatF]

We pretty much agreed (I think) after the 2017 AO that Federer hit his BH better than he did in the 2009 AO... and that various other areas of the game looked worse...

And that it wasn't one of his most impressive AO performances by pure form and tennis quality.

Indeed. The athleticism on display in 2009 was simply on another level compared to 2017 and it led to superior shotmaking. I'd say the hitting was substantially fiercer because it was sustained by both at the same time across most of the match. The other thing Federer clearly did better in 2017 was the serve.

A final note, the backhand in 2017 was helped by the surface playing to Federer's strengths though even accounting for that it was better than 2009 - I simply don't think Federer had the mentality to stand up and be aggressive off that wing in a do or die scenario.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Not sure that 10kph includes all backhands and isn't just a natural by product of slicing less

It's basic human biology that men don't physically peak at 36.

His serve hold% is the same as it's always been
His return game won% is up to 5% lower than at his peak

So the numbers say he's not better than ever, and claiming he is is 100% propaganda

I like how 'return points won' clearly shows Federer's peak in 2004-07 when he achieved 41-42% (the highest he's got since then is 1-2 decimal points over 40%).

 

[fedtennisphan]

Another thing that people ignore is that Roger now is far more prone to having dips in his level from one day to another than when he was in his mid 20s. There is simply no way that Roger of 2006 would've lost to players of 2017 like Donskoi, Haas and Goffin.

He would if they are strategic loses like in 2017.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

He would if they are strategic loses like in 2017.

Federer didn't need strategic losses back then. He could play up to 100 matches in a season and still be fresh.

 

[EloQuent]

He would if they are strategic loses like in 2017.

There's no such thing as a strategic loss.

 

[mike danny]

Ive watched to refresh mmy memory and can't honestly see the difference you people are talking about. For me he looks a half step slower

There you go. It's significant.

 

[NatF]

There you go. It's significant.

I think he means half a step slower in 2006

 

[Deleted member 733170]

This is getting really old.

Were you actually watching Roger Federer play in 2004-2006 or are you relying on dusty Youtube clips? Because it's the latter, as I suspect, you have no basis of comparison, which is obvious since you're erroneously claiming he's playing "better than ever."

1.His movement is at least 15% off peak level.
2. His movement to his FH corner is off 25% from peak level.
3. He can't play a full schedule anymore
4. Even with a paltry 2017 schedule he was mentally/physically done in by the YEC

Fed won 3/4 slams three times in his career. If he's "playing better than ever," why didn't he replicate this feat in 2017? Answer: because his back was done by mid-year. Fed was basically a non factor after Wimbledon last year. Why? Because he is 36 years old.

No tennis player peaks at 36.

Your numbers are absurd. At most Federer’s movement has declined by 2-3%.

Feel free to respond but as you have a certain ignominy for proclaiming that Djokovic is not talented I will not persue a serious discussion with you.

 

[kabob]

This is getting really old.

Were you actually watching Roger Federer play in 2004-2006 or are you relying on dusty Youtube clips? Because it's the latter, as I suspect, you have no basis of comparison, which is obvious since you're erroneously claiming he's playing "better than ever."

1.His movement is at least 15% off peak level.
2. His movement to his FH corner is off 25% from peak level.
3. He can't play a full schedule anymore
4. Even with a paltry 2017 schedule he was mentally/physically done in by the YEC

Fed won 3/4 slams three times in his career. If he's "playing better than ever," why didn't he replicate this feat in 2017? Answer: because his back was done by mid-year. Fed was basically a non factor after Wimbledon last year. Why? Because he is 36 years old.

No tennis player peaks at 36.

If he was crawling on his hands and knees, he'd be faster than "15%-25%" of his so-called peak. Your extreme pessimism makes you the worst when it comes to honestly assessing Federer's skill lol.

 

[underground]

Anyone who claims 2017 Fed is better than 2004-2006 Fed just watch this point at 21:17

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

I think his shot making is better today in every area. Even on the forehand, though it took him a long time to find it with the new racket. Obviously he doesn't move so well and especially can't do sustained defense very well. In his young days he used to be exceptionally good at defending and counterpunching.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

No degredation on the forehand side? You cannot be serious buddy! Sure he's still got a great forehand and all, but it is very much degraded compared to what it once was in the previous decade. He doesn't cover that wing nearly as well as he once did.



Because he isn't and there's no way a 36 year old player plays better than he did 10 years before, that's common sense. The key element in a player's game is footwork/speed and that's where Fed lost a few steps throughout the years, as any normal aging player would. Fed's incredible talent and an overall weak field is what allowed him to have a "soft landing" in his elder years. Yes he's improved some part of his game and plays smarter to compensate for the physical decline and slower movement, no need to rehash that.

This in essence is the conundrum which is essentially unprovable. On the one hand the top commentators, my coach and their crowd (former top juniors), people who I meet at the club who watch tons of tennis all appear to say that Federer is playing higher quality tennis than he ever has done. I am sympathetic to these opinions.

On the other hand, in the dark recesses of the internet, are a group of posters, incidentally self proclaimed experts, who refuse to acknowledge the very possibility that this could be true.

Where I am sympathetic to the internet experts is that Federer is more prone to tiredness, injury, does not enjoy the day in day out consistency (but he’s not far off) and his defence is not quite as good, however when he’s on he’s frankly better than he ever has been.

 

[Deleted member 733170]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with the forehand comment. In the 2000's, he just didn't miss forehands, like ever. And they were bullets.

You should watch those US Open Finals he had against Agassi back then.

You see ,when you right stuff like this you cannot be taken seriously. You really want to pretend he never made unforced errors from his forehand!?

 

[KINGROGER]

He is not playing better than ever. He has a huge weakness nowadays, defending in the corners, especially off his forehand wing. But last year he has been really good at hiding that weakness. Another factor is that the competition weren't good enough to exploit that weakness either, so it goes both ways. Imagine a Djokovic 2011, he would have a field day with this Federer if he got him on his back foot. I do agree though that Federer is and has been playing exceptionally well for his age and has indeed revolutionized his own game to an extent no other player has done before him to my knowledge. But to say he is better than ever? Give me a break, he was better back in 2012 even if his level last year in Indian Wells was pretty darn scary.

Yeah agree with this. Federer in 11/12 was able to boss Djokovic in a few matches thanks to his still superb FH and ok defence.

Both these aspects are not as good.

 

[metsman]

No real change in forehand eh?

Interesting to see that the "Fed fans" claim that peak Federer is useless on clay and loses to Goffin in important events.

 

[fedtennisphan]

There's no such thing as a strategic loss.

Sure there are. I will show you. Federer “loses” in Dubai, goes on to win the Sunshine Double. Then “loses” in Stuttgart, goes on to win Halle and WB without dropping a set. After being tired from winning Shanghai and Basel, he had enough and “lost” after smoking Goffin 6-2 in the 1st set at WTF.