Federer > Djokovic > Nadal - average # of top 10 opponents faced in slams in which they made final

blablavla

Legend
He achieved amazing things because he's one of the greatest players in the history of tennis. It's not that complicated.
It's also true that no players around his age range ended up as ATGs, which meant he had a lower proportion of slam wins against ATGs compared to Nadal. That's not mutually exclusive with him being a great.
Nice try, but I want to see the explanation of how 2015 - present is a stronk era
While 2003 - 2007 is weak
 

blablavla

Legend
It is flawed.

You are trying to rebut an argument that the quality of players around Fed's age range by providing stats on the rankings of players Federer beat. But the whole point is that players like Ljubicic were highly ranked despite not being world class. There's no logic to your argument.
Korda
Rios
Kafelnikov
A. Zverev
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Ok you think it wasn't his prime but I do.
then I'm going to add in 07-08 both years as prime for Djokovic.

This still doesn't change the fact that Federer has 4 losing head to heads where he played at least 5 matches (not even including the Thiem and and Zverev ones for obvious reasons) while Djokovic has 1. Or Federer has 12 losing head to heads to players he played at least twice and Djokovic has 6. Djokovic just owned the field better than Federer did.
kafelnikov&corretja - all losses were when fed wasn't even in top 10. so again, how is that really relevant?
as far as the last one is concerned, that will expand for Djokovic. don't worry.

Also put it this way:
6 prime years (2004-09) and (2011-16) at slams:

No loss for fed to a non-slammer
2 for djokovic - nishi&querrey

3 losses for fed to non-ATG
7 for djokovic

some ownage of field from djokovic in comparision to federer.
 
Last edited:

blablavla

Legend
You can’t only be old to one person and not old to the others. Age excuse always comes up when losing to Djokovic but never seems to matter when winning against Nadal and Murray in the last decade. Hypocrisy!
Old Becker defeated:
Kafelnikov
Chang
And many others

Yet kept losing to:
Sampras
Agassi

Do you see any analogy?
Or that is too much to ask from you?
 

blablavla

Legend
Nope, not all. Federer was perfectly fine aged merely 29. Without facing Nadal and/or Djokovic, Federer would have won 3 Slams in a row aged 29 (USO 2010, USO 2011 and RG 2011). Clearly, the problem wasn't his age. 29 years old Federer would have destroyed Philippoussis, Hewitt or Baghdatis. His problem was the opposition. Nadal and Djokovic had a higher peak than Federer, and that explains Federer's losses to them aged 29. And 28. And 27. And 26. And so on.
Ok dude
Where is Djokodal level of opposition among today's youngsters?
30 years old and younger?
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
then I'm going to add in 07-08 both years as prime for Djokovic.



kafelnikov&corretja - all losses were when fed wasn't even in top 10. so again, how is that really relevant?
as far as the last one is concerned, that will expand for Djokovic. don't worry.
Ok. I thought people did that anyway.

And Kuerten, Nadal, etc.? You just can't accept this. Federer has 26 losing head to heads. Djokovic has 11. Let it go.
 

blablavla

Legend
Ok. I thought people did that anyway.

And Kuerten, Nadal, etc.? You just can't accept this. Federer has 26 losing head to heads. Djokovic has 11. Let it go.
Which just confirms either point of view:
Djokovic is better
The field is weaker

Pick your side & argue ;-)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Ok. I thought people did that anyway.
2008? sometimes yes, but more no than yes.
2007? no.

And Kuerten, Nadal, etc.? You just can't accept this. Federer has 26 losing head to heads. Djokovic has 11. Let it go.
Kuerten is 3 matches. doesn't come under the original 5 match thing. But yes, fed was top 10 in their matches.
Nadal one is valid obviously.

and like I said: as far as losing h2hs is concerned, that will expand for Djokovic. don't worry.
If you are getting that desperate to include losing h2h of 1 match, well.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
2008? sometimes yes, but more no than yes.
2007? no.



Kuerten is 3 matches. doesn't come under the original 5 match thing. But yes, fed was top 10 in their matches.
Nadal one is valid obviously.

and like I said: as far as losing h2hs is concerned, that will expand for Djokovic. don't worry.
If you are getting that desperate to include losing h2h of 1 match, well.
Federer was top 5 in those Kuerten losses and he was ranked outside the top 20. And yea it will expand for Djokovic and his records will still look better. No shame in just admitting that.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Federer was top 5 in those Kuerten losses and he was ranked outside the top 20. And yea it will expand for Djokovic and his records will still look better. No shame in just admitting that.
only if you give that much consideration to matches/rivalries in matches lost where fed wasn't even top 10 in the year
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
2004, 2005 beat 2015 easily as far as strength is concerned and its not even remotely close.

how are they even close to being even ? I can understand disageeing with much better and saying just better, but close to even, I don't see it at all.

2005 AO vs 2015 AO : Safin, Federer, Agassi,Hewitt, Nalbandian, Roddick,>> Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Berdych
2005 FO vs 2015 FO : Nadal, Federer, Puerta, Davydenko, Coria ,Canas, Robredo, Ferrer, Gaudio > Wawrinka, Djokovic, Murray, Tsonga, Federer,Nadal, Nishi

2005 Wim vs 2015 Wim : about the same (let me go a bit in detail for this)

Federer 2005 Wim > Djokovic 2015 Wim
Hewitt 2005 Wim ~ Federer 2015 Wim (including the final, maybe a slight edge to 15 Wim fed, but its debatable, longer it goes, more in favour of hewitt)
Roddick 2005 Wim < Murray 2015 Wim
Johansson 2005 Wim ~ Anderson 2015 Wim
Gonzalez 2005 Wim ~ Gasquet 2015 Wim

about even

2005 USO vs 2015 USO : Federer, Agassi, Hewitt, Nalbandian,Blake >> Djokovic, Federer, Wawrinka

YEC : 2005 was affected quite a bit by injuries, but final made up for it. 2005 YEC < 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2005 > 2015
IW 05 had fed, hewitt, roddick, canas
IW 15 had djoko, fed, , raonic, murray
about the same. Murray was actually worse than canas was.

Miami 05 : federer struggled a little bit earlier, then played really well in QF+SF (henman, agassi)
nadal actually cruised through to final except for ljubicic match.
then that epic final

Miami 15 : djokovic struggled earlier, barely escaping vs dolgo, then played well in the later matches.
murray played better than in IW clearly, but still nothing great.
nothing else noteworthy

I'd say Miami 05 is somewhere in b/w > and >> Miami 15

clay season minus RG : 2005 > 2015
2005 had nadal winning rome+monte carlo. epic 5-setter vs coria at rome. good semi vs gasquet at monte carlo (gasquet upset fed there in an excellent performance)
decent final vs coria
federer dominated hamburg

2015 had djokovic coming through tough draw in rome; fed in final, wawr in semi
madrid wasn't really good in quality. murray played really but, but nadal was poor
monte carlo had a good final, but nothing much else with djokovic playing well in tourney


North America HC season minus USO : 2005 < 2015

Canada 05 < Canada 15
djokovic barely escaped vs gulbis, got beat by murray playing well
nadal beat agassi in 3-setter in 2005 final
no fed in 2005 or in 2015

Cincy 05 < Cincy 15
fed of Cincy 05 < fed of cincy 15
roddick, hewitt in 05; djokovic murray in 05

Indoor season minus YEC : 2005 << 2015
djokovic was on a tear in 2015 indoor season. even players playing some okayish/decent tennis were dismissed - nadal, murray etc
fed-nadal final in basel
no fed in 05 (injured, so out of madrid+paris)
nadal-ljubicic 5-setter in madrid 05 is not enough to cover up for it+paris being depleted of even more players

So to sum it up , IMO :

2005 AO >> 2015 AO
2005 RG > 2015 RG
2005 Wim ~ 2015 Wim
2005 USO >> 2015 USO

2005 YEC < 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2005 > 2015
clay season minus RG : 2005 > 2015
North America HC season minus USO : 2005 < 2015
Indoor season minus YEC : 2005 << 2015


the non major events in 15 is a little better than 2005 (thanks to indoor season.)
But the difference in slams in 2005 is just too big.

so yeah, I stand by 2005 >> 2015.
@mike danny

2004 vs 2015

2004 AO vs 2015 AO : Safin, Federer, Agassi,Hewitt, Nalbandian, Roddick,Ferrero >> Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Berdych
2004 FO vs 2015 FO : Gaudio, Coria, Nalbandian, Kuerten, Moya, Henman, Federer somewhere b/w < and << Wawrinka, Djokovic, Murray, Tsonga, Federer,Nadal, Nishi
both with good depth atleast, final obviously clearly swings it in favour of 2015 FO

2004 Wim vs 2015 Wim: Federer, Roddick, Ancic, Hewitt, Henman, Grosjean > Djokovic, Federer, Murray, Anderson, Cilic, Gasquet

2004 Fed > 2015 Djokovic
2004 Roddick > 2015 Fed
Hewitt ~ Murray (below par 3rd set from hewitt, but played an exceptional TB to get the 2nd set)
Ancic ~ Anderson (maybe being a bit generous here)
Grosjean ~ Gasquet
Henman ~ Cilic

For Gasquet-Stan in Wim 15, you had Hewitt Moya in Wim 04.

2004 USO vs 2015 USO: Federer, Agassi, Hewitt, Henman, Roddick, Johansson >> Djokovic, Federer, Stan, Cilic, Lopez, Tsonga

2004 Fed > 2015 Djokovic
2004 Agassi > 2015 Fed
2004 Hewitt > 2015 Stan
2004 Roddick > 2015 Lopez
2004 Johansson > 2015 Cilic (thanks to Cilic injury)
2004 Henman < 2015 Tsonga (Edited: Henman played fine in the semi, but struggled in the earlier rounds more than Tsonga did clearly)

So 2 slams in 2004 considerably better than in 2015, one better in 2004 and one significantly better in 2015

2004 YEC vs 2015 YEC : Federer, Hewitt, Safin, Roddick > Djokovic, Federer, Stan, Nadal

Federer > Djokovic
Hewitt ~ Federer
Safin > Stan
Roddick ~ Nadal

--------------

early HC season minus AO : about even
IW 04 had fed, agassi, henman, roddick
IW 15 had djoko, fed, , raonic, murray

fed-agassi in 04 > djokovic-fed in 15 (individually as well)
Henman/Roddick > Raonic in IW 15 and >> 15 Murray

IW 04 somewhere b/w > and >> IW 15

Miami 04 : Roddick beat Moya in QF, Coria beat Gonzo in SF.

Miami 15 : djokovic struggled earlier, barely escaping vs dolgo, then played well in the later matches.
murray played better than in IW clearly, but still nothing great.
nothing else noteworthy

Miami 15 somewhere b/w > and >> Miami 04

Clay season minus RG: 15 better

Monte Carlo 2004 < Monte Carlo 2015: Coria, Safin, Nalby, Moya in 2004 < Djokovic, Berdych, nadal, Ferrer
Rome 2004 << Rome 2015: Moya, nalby, Costa in 2004 << Djokovic,Federer, Stan, Ferrer (crap final from nalby)
Hamburg 2004 >> Madrid 2015
Federer came through a draw of Gaudio, Gonzalez, Moya, Hewitt to get to the final. Final was a good one unlike 15 where Nadal was cra*p.

North America HC season minus USO : 2004 ~ 2015

Canada 04 > Canada 15
djokovic barely escaped vs gulbis, got beat by murray playing well
Roddick came through to the final easily and Fed beat him convincingly.
Fed had 2 Tbs vs Mirnyi (big server) and an entertaining shotmaking match vs arazi in 1st round, lost 1st set vs Johansson

fed of canada 04 > murray of canada 15
roddick of canada 04 ~ djoko of canada 04

Cincy 05 < Cincy 15
Agassi of Cincy 04 < fed of cincy 15
roddick, hewitt in 05; djokovic murray in 05

Indoor season minus YEC : about even

madrid 04 had safin in peak form only slightly lesser than djokovic in shanghai 15
also had agassi clearly better than anyone Djokovic faced in shanghai 15.

paris 04 safin ~ paris 15 djokovic
hewitt in paris 04 ~ Stan in Paris 15

So to sum it up , IMO :

2004 AO >> 2015 AO
2004 RG b/w < and << 2015 RG
2004 Wim > 2015 Wim
2004 USO >> 2015 USO

2004 YEC > 2015 YEC

early HC season minus AO : 2004 ~ 2015
clay season minus RG : 2004 < 2015
North America HC season minus USO : 2004 ~ 2015
Indoor season minus YEC : 2004 ~ 2015


2004 significantly better in slams
2004 better at the YEC
the non major events in 15 is a little better than 2004 (thanks to clay season)
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Ok you think it wasn't his prime but I do.

This still doesn't change the fact that Federer has 4 losing head to heads where he played at least 5 matches (not even including the Thiem and and Zverev ones for obvious reasons) while Djokovic has 1. Or Federer has 10 (plus Thiem and Zverev) losing head to heads to players he played at least twice and Djokovic has 6. Djokovic just owned the field better than Federer did.
The last sentence is false. If it were true, he wouldn't have lost 6 slam matches to Murray, Stan and Nishikori while still in his prime.
 

Nadal_Django

Hall of Fame
I think federer, nadal 05, agassi, hewitt, roddick, safin, nalbandian > djokovic, federer, murray, wawrinka.

Also 2015 Nadal, Derangedango?



Its like you want to be mocked.
Safin went completely MIA after January 2005. Sciatica immovable object Agassi!? Clay boy 15 y/o Nadal!? Really... :oops: Roddick, Hewitt and Nalbandian. LOL
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
The last sentence is false. If it were true, he wouldn't have lost 6 slam matches to Murray, Stan and Nishikori while still in his prime.
And what about outside his prime? Owning the field doesn't mean you wouldn't lose matches. It means you are winning most of them. Djokovic would never fall behind 23-10 to Nadal in his prime.
 
Last edited:

abmk

Bionic Poster
The last sentence is false. If it were true, he wouldn't have lost 6 slam matches to Murray, Stan and Nishikori while still in his prime.
yep. I already mentioned it. (but it was an edit to a post)

Also put it this way:
6 prime years (2004-09) and (2011-16) at slams:

No loss for fed to a non-slammer
2 for djokovic - nishi&querrey

3 losses for fed to non-ATG
7 for djokovic

some ownage of field from djokovic in comparision to federer.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Safin went completely MIA after January 2005. Sciatica immovable object Agassi!? Clay boy 15 y/o Nadal!? Really... :oops: Roddick, Hewitt and Nalbandian. LOL
Actually Safin was in Halle 05 final.
Agassi didn't have back issues in 04. Only in 05.
19 yo old 2005 Nadal - he sweeps the floor 100 times over with 2015 Nadal and then clubs you on the head in the hopes that will help repair some of the derangement. :-D

If Roddick, Hewitt lol then Wawrinka, Murray and even 15 Fed lol.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Probably better, but just saying that he didn't dominate the field better than Fed did as a whole. Don't care thst much about overall losing H2H's.
I didn't say who dominated more. Well then you missed the whole point so no wonder you disagree.
 
Top