Federer > Djokovic prime to prime at slams except on plexi AO

fedfan24 said:
Roddick, Hewitt, Nadal on clay/grass, 07 Djokovic, old Agassi, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko. Much stronger than the clowns djokovic faced since 2020.
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Old Agassi who averaged like 75% win rate across a season? Safin? He made it past 4th round of a slam twice in Feds era. He literally lives off that SF in AO. It's been so glorified it has become a smoke screen for Safins gazillion first week losses in that time. Like I said, people forget. As for the others, again you mention them like they were titans compared to current top players when that is far from the truth.
 
RF-18 said:
Old Agassi who averaged like 75% win rate across a season? Safin? He made it past 4th round of a slam twice in Feds era. He literally lives off that SF in AO. It's been so glorified it has become a smoke screen for Safins gazillion first week losses in that time. Like I said, people forget. As for the others, again you mention them like they were titans compared to current top players when that is far from the truth.
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Tsitsipas and Ruud are multi time slam finalists in this era. Shelton, Norrie and Paul semi finalists. Worst era of all time.
 
I do think Fed being better than Djokovic H2H at RG peak for peak is a good argument. The extra spin of the 1HBH and his excellent pace generation compared to Novak’s gives him a more real advantage than it may seem. Djok better against Nadal and more consistent on clay but at their absolute best at RG I lean Federer
 
33 pages and counting...all I want to add is...

cope-copium.gif
 
Kralingen said:
I do think Fed being better than Djokovic H2H at RG peak for peak is a good argument. The extra spin of the 1HBH and his excellent pace generation compared to Novak’s gives him a more real advantage than it may seem. Djok better against Nadal and more consistent on clay but at their absolute best at RG I lean Federer
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I think the 2011 RG match is hyped to no end here while the match they played the following year, the year Federer actually won a slam, is totally forgotten. The one where Djokovic straight setted him.
 
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fedfan24 said:
Tsitsipas and Ruud are multi time slam finalists in this era. Shelton, Norrie and Paul semi finalists. Worst era of all time.
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Why?

Just because Federer doesn't play anymore and Djokovic is and is winning a lot?

Should we go and say era when Federer was winning a lot was worst era of all time because Novak and Rafa basically didn't play then, just like Roger is not playing now?
 
AO13 said:
Why?

Just because Federer doesn't play anymore and Djokovic is and is winning a lot?

Should we go and say era when Federer was winning a lot was worst era of all time because Novak and Rafa basically didn't play then, just like Roger is not playing now?
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because he’s past his best yet he’s winning slams easier than he ever has with little to no resistance most of the time
 
Federer was winning when Nadal and Djokovic were still young.

When Nadal was had his best year in '10, Federer was only 29. When Djokovic had one of his best years in '11, Federer was only 30.

From 2006 to his retirement, Federer was losing to Nadal or Djokovic or both. And he was only 25 at the time.
 
Another LOLworthyTTW thread.Spoiled children coping badly :-D How one can not enjoy depth of the ruins ?Your better at this ,that fighting for second place and in fact losing ,was not what you were promised.It’s not fair :cry:
 
Fair enough... Djokovic's prime at AO is greater than Fed and Fed's prime at Wimbledon and USO is greater than Djokovic.

I don't see Federer of 2006 Rome losing to any version of Djokovic on clay so slightly edge to Fed on clay as well
 
abmk said:
Prime to prime:

1. Federer obviously better at Wimbledon. Won 5 in a row and 6 out of 7 Wimbledons, only losing 7th final in 5 sets.
Best 5 years (2003-07) has better service AND return stats than Djokovic in his best 5 year stretch (11-15) or even best 5 years(11-12,14-15,18)

Federer from 2003-07:

Hold% = 94%, Service points won: 72.5%, Break% = 30.3%,return points won = 41%


Djokovic from 11-12,14-15 and 18:

Hold% = 92.1%, Service points won: 71.7%, Break% = 28.3%,return points won = 40.5%


past his prime Fed beat prime Djokovic comfortably in 4 sets in Wim 12 semi. Even if you consider that Wim 12 as late prime Fed, he still beat Djokovic comfortably in 4 sets.
Djokovic had to wait for Federer to be 32.5+ years to get a win over him at Wimbledon.


2. Federer obviously better at USO: Won 5 USOs in a row, made a 6th USO final. Djokovic OTOH hasn't defended a US Open. Best/Peakiest of peak version of Djokovic in 11 USO was down 2 sets to love and had to save 2 MPs vs Fed at his 7th best USO (after 04-09)

3. At French Open:

Again, Federer is better here.

a. Won their prime level to prime level encounter in RG 11.
b. Djokovic doesn't have a single win that comes close to fed's 09 RG win vs delpo or fed's win over Djokovic himself at RG 11.
Djokovic crumbled when faced with a similar opponent as delpo of RG 09 in stan RG 15.
c. Fed's RG 09 win was hard earned, in contrast to Nole's easy draw at RG 16.
d. Only advantage Djoko has is taking Nadal to 5 sets at RG 13.
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abmk said:
Prime to prime:

1. Federer obviously better at Wimbledon. Won 5 in a row and 6 out of 7 Wimbledons, only losing 7th final in 5 sets.
Best 5 years (2003-07) has better service AND return stats than Djokovic in his best 5 year stretch (11-15) or even best 5 years(11-12,14-15,18)

Federer from 2003-07:

Hold% = 94%, Service points won: 72.5%, Break% = 30.3%,return points won = 41%


Djokovic from 11-12,14-15 and 18:

Hold% = 92.1%, Service points won: 71.7%, Break% = 28.3%,return points won = 40.5%


past his prime Fed beat prime Djokovic comfortably in 4 sets in Wim 12 semi. Even if you consider that Wim 12 as late prime Fed, he still beat Djokovic comfortably in 4 sets.
Djokovic had to wait for Federer to be 32.5+ years to get a win over him at Wimbledon.


2. Federer obviously better at USO: Won 5 USOs in a row, made a 6th USO final. Djokovic OTOH hasn't defended a US Open. Best/Peakiest of peak version of Djokovic in 11 USO was down 2 sets to love and had to save 2 MPs vs Fed at his 7th best USO (after 04-09)

3. At French Open:

Again, Federer is better here.

a. Won their prime level to prime level encounter in RG 11.
b. Djokovic doesn't have a single win that comes close to fed's 09 RG win vs delpo or fed's win over Djokovic himself at RG 11.
Djokovic crumbled when faced with a similar opponent as delpo of RG 09 in stan RG 15.
c. Fed's RG 09 win was hard earned, in contrast to Nole's easy draw at RG 16.
d. Only advantage Djoko has is taking Nadal to 5 sets at RG 13.
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Still very strong.
 
Kralingen said:
I do think Fed being better than Djokovic H2H at RG peak for peak is a good argument. The extra spin of the 1HBH and his excellent pace generation compared to Novak’s gives him a more real advantage than it may seem. Djok better against Nadal and more consistent on clay but at their absolute best at RG I lean Federer
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3>1 bud...

And almost forgot, 24>20 bud...
 
Federev said:
Still very strong.
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abmk said:
Prime to prime:

1. Federer obviously better at Wimbledon. Won 5 in a row and 6 out of 7 Wimbledons, only losing 7th final in 5 sets.
Best 5 years (2003-07) has better service AND return stats than Djokovic in his best 5 year stretch (11-15) or even best 5 years(11-12,14-15,18)

Federer from 2003-07:

Hold% = 94%, Service points won: 72.5%, Break% = 30.3%,return points won = 41%


Djokovic from 11-12,14-15 and 18:

Hold% = 92.1%, Service points won: 71.7%, Break% = 28.3%,return points won = 40.5%


past his prime Fed beat prime Djokovic comfortably in 4 sets in Wim 12 semi. Even if you consider that Wim 12 as late prime Fed, he still beat Djokovic comfortably in 4 sets.
Djokovic had to wait for Federer to be 32.5+ years to get a win over him at Wimbledon.


2. Federer obviously better at USO: Won 5 USOs in a row, made a 6th USO final. Djokovic OTOH hasn't defended a US Open. Best/Peakiest of peak version of Djokovic in 11 USO was down 2 sets to love and had to save 2 MPs vs Fed at his 7th best USO (after 04-09)

3. At French Open:

Again, Federer is better here.

a. Won their prime level to prime level encounter in RG 11.
b. Djokovic doesn't have a single win that comes close to fed's 09 RG win vs delpo or fed's win over Djokovic himself at RG 11.
Djokovic crumbled when faced with a similar opponent as delpo of RG 09 in stan RG 15.
c. Fed's RG 09 win was hard earned, in contrast to Nole's easy draw at RG 16.
d. Only advantage Djoko has is taking Nadal to 5 sets at RG 13.
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I to some extent understand 2011 RG SF match argument although as i said in my above comment i don't think 1 match could ever be absolute argument for any conclusion.
I no way however agree with 2009 strong RG field argument.
I say 2009 RG is absolutely comparable to 2021 RG.No way no matter Del Potro SF level he would've played better and be stronger opposition than Nadal at RG,even 2021 Nadal. Tsitsipas final level was again higher than Soderling 2009 final level./i repeat FINAL not Tournament level/.Even 2015 is comparable in strenght of opposition but Novak lost the final there so i won't include it.
 
ImmorTAL Big 3 said:
I to some extent understand 2011 RG SF match argument although as i said in my above comment i don't think 1 match could ever be absolute argument for any conclusion.
I no way however agree with 2009 strong RG field argument.
I say 2009 RG is absolutely comparable to 2021 RG.No way no matter Del Potro SF level he would've played better and be stronger opposition than Nadal at RG,even 2021 Nadal. Tsitsipas final level was again higher than Soderling 2009 final level./i repeat FINAL not Tournament level/.Even 2015 is comparable in strenght of opposition but Novak lost the final there so i won't include it.
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nope. Delpo in RG 2009 SF was well well above RG 21 SF nadal. its not even particularly close.

delpo played 4 good sets in the 2009 semi (all except 4th) and peaked higher in 1st and 3rd set than nadal in any set in RG 21 semi. nadal played good in 1st set, decent-good in 3rd set, a mediocre 2nd set and a terrible 4th set. delpo of RG 2009 SF have made mincemeat of 21 RG SF nadal

tsitsipas in RG 21 final was no better than sod in RG 09 final. Both played 2 good sets (tsitsipas - 1 and 2, sod - 2 and 3) and sod was up vs a much better opponent.

also fed faced Acusaso, PHM, Haas and Monfils in RG 09.

RG 15 would be somewhat similar to RG 09 - difference is Djokovic lost to peak Stan in the final. fed beat a similar level delpo in RG 09 semi.
 
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abmk said:
nope. Delpo in RG 2009 SF was well well above RG 21 SF nadal. its not even particularly close.

delpo played 4 good sets in the 2009 semi (all except 4th) and peaked higher in 1st and 3rd set than nadal in any set in RG 21 semi. nadal played good in 1st set, decent-good in 3rd set, a mediocre 2nd set and a terrible 4th set. delpo of RG 2009 SF have made mincemeat of 21 RG SF nadal

tsitsipas in RG 21 final was no better than sod in RG 09 final. Both played 2 good sets (tsitsipas - 1 and 2, sod - 2 and 3) and sod was up vs a much better opponent.

also fed faced Acusaso, PHM, Haas and Monfils in RG 09.

RG 15 would be somewhat similar to RG 09 - difference is Djokovic lost to peak Stan in the final. fed beat a similar level delpo in RG 09 semi.
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Out of 10 how did these guys play? Leaving Monfils out.
 
RS said:
Why couldn't great performances from non ATG match that level I meant
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I don't agree with that line of thinking. First of all they are not Djokovic nor have his qualities. Can Roddick for example move like Djokovic?
 
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How have you come to the conclusion that Fed has a better peak than Nole at 3/4 slams? I know that hypothetical fed is GOAT but there are no facts to support that theory in practice. the only thing we can see about their success in the 4 different GS is the following:

No1e vs FedTitlesFinalsW%H2HRemarks
AO10 - 610 - 791,8% - 87,2%4-1AO22
RG3 - 17- 585,2% - 81,1%1-1/
W7 - 89 - 1289,3% - 88,2%3-1W20
USO4 - 510 - 787,1% - 86,4%3-3USO20, USO22

As I see it, Fed doesn't have a clean advantage in any of the 4, while Nole has more than a clear advantage in the first 2!
 
GoatNo1 said:
How have you come to the conclusion that Fed has a better peak than Nole at 3/4 slams? I know that hypothetical fed is GOAT but there are no facts to support that theory in practice. the only thing we can see about their success in the 4 different GS is the following:

No1e vs FedTitlesFinalsW%H2HRemarks
AO10 - 610 - 791,8% - 87,2%4-1AO22
RG3 - 17- 585,2% - 81,1%1-1/
W7 - 89 - 1289,3% - 88,2%3-1W20
USO4 - 510 - 787,1% - 86,4%3-3USO20, USO22

As I see it, Fed doesn't have a clean advantage in any of the 4, while Nole has more than a clear advantage in the first 2!
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wimbledon 2012, closest prime to prime match up, easy 4 sets win for federer vs peak djokovic
rg 2011, fed edges it out
uso 07-11. easy-ish 3 sets wins for prime fed but peak djokovic needs to save MPs to take down 2011 federer

AO goes to djokovic
 
fedfan24 said:
wimbledon 2012, closest prime to prime match up, easy 4 sets win for federer vs peak djokovic
rg 2011, fed edges it out
uso 07-11. easy-ish 3 sets wins for prime fed but peak djokovic needs to save MPs to take down 2011 federer

AO goes to djokovic
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2011 wasn't peak Djokovic, who are you kidding? Maybe mentally-wise, but game-wise? 2015/2016/2021 Djokovic would trash him in 3 sets with his serve alone.
 
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How can posters here look at a one match peak? If you go entire 1 year, 3 year, 5 year peak to peak, I have Federer at Us open and Wimbledon and Djokovic at Australian and French. It’s as simple as that, no?
 
What's prime for prime? Here, I'll use 2004-2009 for Federer and 2011-16 for Djoker.

Let's look at the number of slam titles for each slam event:
AO: 5-3 Djoker. Djoker is the clear winner here.
FO: 1-1. Djoker went to 6 straight semis, which includes 4 finals and a title. Fed also did 4 finals and a title, but had only 5 semis and a 3R straight set knockout. Djoker wins
WI: Fed 6-3. Fed is the winner here
USO: Fed 5-2. Fed is the winner there

Fed gets Wimbledon and USO; Djoker gets FO and AO.

The biggest difference is that Djoker stayed great for a much longer period of time. This is why he ended up passing Federer.

So although I like Federer's 6 year peak more than Djoker's, I cannot overlook the fact that Djoker has been absolutely incredible for a 13 year span(barring the elbow injury in 2017). Being in contention for world #1 nearly every year for 13 years straight is absolutely ridiculous.
 
peak fed (04-09) has negativ h2h vs baby muzza and rafa! peak fed is a myth!
04-09TotalsRafael NadalAndy MurrayNovak Djokovic
ch.png
Roger Federer		45.5% (20-24)35.0% (7-13)40.0% (4-6)64.3% (9-5)
in his best year (2006) he was 2-4 vs rafa and 0-1 vs muzza!

peak nole has positive h2h vs all main rivals, and nole has positive h2h vs all players he played a double digit number of matches!
PlayerTotalsRafael NadalRoger FedererAndy Murray
rs.png
Novak Djokovic
active.png
70.0% (56-24)73.1% (19-7)65.4% (17-9)71.4% (20-8)
2011 nole was 6-0 vs rafa, 2-1 vs muzza and 4-1 vs fed
2015 nole was 4-0 vs rafa, 6-1 vs muzza and 5-3 vs fed (won W F, USO F, WTF F, IW F, rome F = 2900p and lose cinci F, dubao F and WTF RR = 800p)
 
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GoatNo1 said:
peak fed (04-09) has negativ h2h vs baby muzza and rafa! peak fed is a myth!
04-09TotalsRafael NadalAndy MurrayNovak Djokovic
ch.png
Roger Federer		45.5% (20-24)35.0% (7-13)40.0% (4-6)64.3% (9-5)
in his bes year (2006) he was 2-4 vs rafa and 0-1 vs muzza!

peak nole has positive h2h vs all rivals, and nole has positive h2h vs all players he played a double digit number of matches!
PlayerTotalsRafael NadalRoger FedererAndy Murray
rs.png
Novak Djokovic
active.png
70.0% (56-24)73.1% (19-7)65.4% (17-9)71.4% (20-8)
2011 nole was 6-0 vs rafa, 2-1 vs muzza and 4-1 vs fed
2015 nole was 4-0 vs rafa, 6-1 vs muzza and 5-3 vs fed (won W F, USO F, WTF F, IW F, rome F = 2900p and lose cinci F, dubao F and WTF RR = 800p)
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56-24 vs 20-24 is a huge difference tbf. Fed makes up for it by not losing as many slams to lesser players though.
 
RS said:
56-24 vs 20-24 is a huge difference tbf. Fed makes up for it by not losing as many slams to lesser players though.
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don't forget that fed in his peak played against baby versions of rafa, nole and muzza while nole played against peak versions of his peers and fed who was still in his prime. and fed again had a negative h2h vs preprime/peak big4 while nole crushed his biggest rivals in their peak/prime.
 
GoatNo1 said:
don't forget that fed in his peak played against baby versions of rafa, nole and muzza while nole played against peak versions of his peers and fed who was still in his prime. and fed again had a negative h2h vs preprime/peak big4 while nole crushed his biggest rivals in their peak/prime.
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Calling Nadal a baby in 04-09 but Fed still prime in 11-16 is a big big possible stretch.
 
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