Federer forehand code cracked

Curious

Legend
Yeah, it’s actually bloody simple and easy to do. Don’t know how and why it took so long to get it.
I know you’ll jump into the differences between my forehand and Federer’s but don’t waste your time as they’re just the insignificant details. Yes my independent racket take back with the arm is still bigger than his (I fixed it after the slow mo video was taken) and I don’t straighten my arm ( i actually can’t btw, some physical restriction there ) but the main thing is his turn-drop-swing style, the compactness.




 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah, it’s actually bloody simple and easy to do. Don’t know how and why it took so long to get it.
I know you’ll jump into the differences between my forehand and Federer’s but don’t waste your time as they’re just the insignificant details. Yes my independent racket take back with the arm is still bigger than his (I fixed it after the slow mo video was taken) and I don’t straighten my arm ( i actually can’t btw, some physical restriction there ) but the main thing is his turn-drop-swing style, the compactness.




So does this mean you're dropping the slice?
 

socallefty

Legend
You hit the ball really late and have hardly any forward weight transfer with your body - highly doubt you are generating much topspin. I don’t see much knee bending or leg drive adding power to your shot either even on shorter balls. I would say the differences with Federer or any advanced FH are pretty significant. You are yet again focusing just on the takeback and swing and forgetting all the other basics that involve the legs, body and contact point.
 

Curious

Legend
You hit the ball really late and have hardly any forward weight transfer with your body - highly doubt you are generating much topspin. I don’t see much knee bending or leg drive adding power to your shot either even on shorter balls. I would say the differences with Federer or any advanced FH are pretty significant. You are yet again focusing just on the takeback and swing and forgetting all the other basics that involve the legs, body and contact point.
If I hit the ball late how come most of the contact points are out in front?
 

socallefty

Legend
If I hit the ball late how come most of the contact points are out in front?
Not early enough in front still to generate high topspin - and the reason you don’t hit it early enough is because you don’t transfer your body weight forward much at all. Watch most slow motion videos of the pros and see how much their body is propelled forward (in many cases they go airborne) when they hit their FH.

When you start mentioning your FH in the same rarefied air as that of Federer, you shouldn’t be surprised if other posters point out your failings in gory detail. For the level you play, it is a decent FH. Just don’t tell others it is a textbook shot that is similar to one of the ATGs of the modern era
 

Curious

Legend
When you start mentioning your FH in the same rarefied air as that of Federer, you shouldn’t be surprised if other posters point out your failings in gory detail. For the level you play, it is a decent FH. Just don’t tell others it is a textbook shot that is similar to one of the ATGs of the modern era
I guess you’re a bit annoyed that this is coming from a 3.5 player and ok I can’t blame you for that. But I’ll blame you for being a little unfair still with your comments with that prejudice. You’re talking about pros being airborne in many cases, well, I’m just having a nice and easy practice there! Weight transfer? Modern fh power generation is mostly rotational from torso and hips. Hitting late could be an issue for me yes but come on, saying the contact points in this video are not in front is simply not true.
 

Dragy

Legend
If I hit the ball late how come most of the contact points are out in front?
One thing I’d address is that self-hug finish: you can drive hitting shoulder a bit farther before passing momentum to the arm. Nick from intuitive tennis suggests having hitting shoulder in front of the off-side shoulder by contact as fundamental rule, and I think it’s a good checkpoint for driving shots.

I believe if you wished to put more spin and shape, you could go through lower “slot” position, closer to your hips, and swing more outward and steep. But you must not channel your inner Nadal if you want to hit with moderate effort and good penetration. Apart from the mentioned self-hugging I really like your swing. Interesting to see it full speed in a rally, with shape and consistency.
 

socallefty

Legend
Hitting late could be an issue for me yes but come on, saying the contact points in this video are not in front is simply not true.
It is all relative and depends on whose FHs you are comparing it to - what looks early to you looks very late to me when I compare it to most of the players I play against and the ideal contact point that my coach teaches. Watch the video below showing the FHs of many modern pros including Federer (around 4 minutes) and see how early they hit the ball and how much they are moving their body forward even with open stances in most cases.

 

Curious

Legend
It is all relative and depends on whose FHs you are comparing it to - what looks early to you looks very late to me when I compare it to most of the players I play against and the ideal contact point that my coach teaches. Watch the video below showing the FHs of many modern pros including Federer (around 4 minutes) and see how early they hit the ball and how much they are moving their body forward even with open stances in most cases.

There's not a single forehand there from a practice session!
Now please compare my contact points and weight transfer with the ones in this video. That'll be a little more fair comparison.


 

FiddlerDog

Professional
The biggest flaw in rec tennis is trying to copy someone else's strokes. That's not how tennis works. The people you're copying did not copy anyone else. Every body is different, and every stroke is different
 

Curious

Legend
The biggest flaw in rec tennis is trying to copy someone else's strokes. That's not how tennis works. The people you're copying did not copy anyone else. Every body is different, and every stroke is different
What about Dimitrov? :D
I'm actually trying to copy some fundamentals like good turn, keep the racket on the hitting side, make your stroke as compact as possible, timely pronation into the contact and windshield wiper action. And Federer happens to be a good model!
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
@Dragy
The biggest flaw in rec tennis is trying to copy someone else's strokes. That's not how tennis works. The people you're copying did not copy anyone else. Every body is different, and every stroke is different
Not so sure that is true. Monfils copied Roddick's serve. Dimitrov copied much of Federer's game. Back in the 90s, Federer had emulated the Sampras serve for a while before developing his own serving style. Roger also adopted Pete's jumping overhead smash.

As juniors or early in their pro careers, many players have emulated those who have come before them -- either on a conscious level or a subconscious level. In the early 00s, Nadal appears to have emulated aspects of Federer's Fh mechanics. And Roger's gaze technique on g'strokes as well.
 

Dragy

Legend
@Dragy

Not so sure that is true. Monfils copied Roddick's serve. Dimitrov copied much of Federer's game. Back in the 90s, Federer had emulated the Sampras serve for a while before developing his own serving style. Roger also adopted Pete's jumping overhead smash.

As juniors or early in their pro careers, many players have emulated those who have come before them -- either on a conscious level or a subconscious level. In the early 00s, Nadal appears to have emulated aspects of Federer's Fh mechanics. And Roger's gaze technique on g'strokes as well.
Agree, copying is the most basic learning mechanics. Listening to instruction, let alone "understanding fundamentals", requires much more prerequisites and, despite working for some individuals, is not that basic in learning motor skills. Copying/emulating and trying/practicing is quite uniform.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't think copying pro players is a bad thing. The bad thing is most of the time you cannot copy them! Who wouldn't be happy to copy Sampras serve for God's sake? :D
The pros are undoubtedly emulating, influencing or copying each other all the time. Sampras appears to have made the reverse finish on balls out wide on his Fh quite popular. (Whether or not he was the first to do it. I had actually learned the reverse more than 40 years ago). Davenport, Capriati and others quickly followed suit. Numerous other players have adopted this since that time. Rafa has inspired players to use the reverse finish more often then they had before.

The WW finish had become popular in the 00s (even tho it probably had been used long before this). As one player had been using it often & successfully to generate more spin, other pro players quickly adopted it.

We've seen the same thing with footwork patterns that have become popular in the past 2+ decades.
 

ZanderGoga

Semi-Pro
You were a little more interesting when you were genuinely trying to learn and improve. But since you’ve decided to emulate sureshs and go full-on troll/joke, there’s really no point wasting effort helping you.
 

Curious

Legend
You were a little more interesting when you were genuinely trying to learn and improve. But since you’ve decided to emulate sureshs and go full-on troll/joke, there’s really no point wasting effort helping you.
Had never tried to improve as geniunely as in the last few months actually. Making assumptions could be very misleading. Also I didn't ask for help in this thread.
 
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D

Deleted member 780836

Guest
oh man, this was so relaxing. It's not even seniors tennis, it's seniors plus! just hitting and chatting, like jogging together. So @socallefty , you see how serios our hitting session was :D


What happened to your journey of adopting MEP's style? Topspin is forbidden in MEP land ;)
 

Fintft

Legend
One thing I’d address is that self-hug finish: you can drive hitting shoulder a bit farther before passing momentum to the arm. Nick from intuitive tennis suggests having hitting shoulder in front of the off-side shoulder by contact as fundamental rule, and I think it’s a good checkpoint for driving shots.

I believe if you wished to put more spin and shape, you could go through lower “slot” position, closer to your hips, and swing more outward and steep. But you must not channel your inner Nadal if you want to hit with moderate effort and good penetration. Apart from the mentioned self-hugging I really like your swing. Interesting to see it full speed in a rally, with shape and consistency.
This is the first thing that caught my eye as well in the first video: @Curious you are not hitting through the ball enough and don't seem to have arm extended at contact- I think that's what @Dragy is getting at with his paragraph above and his nice check point- You don't want to come over the ball so soon mate! :)
 

Fintft

Legend
It is all relative and depends on whose FHs you are comparing it to - what looks early to you looks very late to me when I compare it to most of the players I play against and the ideal contact point that my coach teaches. Watch the video below showing the FHs of many modern pros including Federer (around 4 minutes) and see how early they hit the ball and how much they are moving their body forward even with open stances in most cases.

Yes and it looks that @Curious admitted that hitting late might be an issue for him, but wasn't that in the second video, the one where he might not have incorporated his new, compact take back?
 

Fintft

Legend
oh man, this was so relaxing. It's not even seniors tennis, it's seniors plus! just hitting and chatting, like jogging together. So @socallefty , you see how serios our hitting session was :D


Kudos for the fun, but don't totally forget the fundamendals: i.e. hold the racquet with two hands, have a proper take back and so forth.
 

Fintft

Legend
This is the first thing that caught my eye as well in the first video: @Curious you are not hitting through the ball enough and don't seem to have arm extended at contact- I think that's what @Dragy is getting at with his paragraph above and his nice check point- You don't want to come over the ball so soon mate! :)
Sheesh, I'm replying to myself but at least @Curious has reacted to the original post:

Throw the racquet at the ball (after you pull the handle towards the net) and it's face would square magically at contact, you don't want to slow down the accelaration etc.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Back to the emulation thing..

I recall seeing that Daria Kasatkina had taught the tweener to one (or more) of her peers on the WTA tour. Believe that Gigi Fernandez did the same back in her day.

No doubt that some pros, picked up the tweener, without being taught, just from seeing other players execute it. Federer might have picked it up from watching Agassi or Sabatini. Simona Halep has hit a few in competition in the past couple years. Wondering if she picked it up on her own or let's talk by someone else.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Back to the emulation thing..

I recall seeing that Daria Kasatkina had taught the tweener to one (or more) of her peers on the WTA tour. Believe that Gigi Fernandez did the same back in her day.

No doubt that some pros, picked up the tweener, without being taught, just from seeing other players execute it. Federer might have picked it up from watching Agassi or Sabatini. Simona Halep has hit a few in competition in the past couple years. Wondering if she picked it up on her own or let's talk by someone else.
Do you believe any of the pros were taught to model their strokes as per other pros from the start ot that came later after they had other things such as footwork, micro adjustments, point of contact, and many other things in place? Federer’s fh itself has evolved and is not the same as the one he used against Sampras at Wimbledon. You coach high level kids if I am not wrong? What is your general advice?

The problem with rec play and emulating a pro is that most of the times emphasis is only on a static form and not all the other things. Casual or not you can see tons of bad habits on curious’s wall hitting session. I am guilty of the same. This is why things break down when in a match for most rec players. Plus when you start moving and you are thinking more about form than instinctively hit, your stroke starts to break down.

Your perspective might be a bit different having coached high level kids who were putting effort into the other prerequisites too and already had certain key things in place.
 

Curious

Legend
Casual or not you can see tons of bad habits on curious’s wall hitting session.
Well, you’re right and I’m aware of it of course but this was really even lower than a casual hit. I’d correct many of the laziness related footwork and balance issues you see in that video if I was to practice more seriously.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Well, you’re right and I’m aware of it of course but this was really even lower than a casual hit. I’d correct many of the laziness related footwork and balance issues you see in that video if I was to practice more seriously.
I didn’t mean it that way. What I am saying is that unless you start young a lot of those base fundamentals are never going to be ingrained. It is not a question of laziness.

What we do here is focus too much on static form. By the third stroke when one has to move and hit the ball where the bounce doesn’t come nicely to the hitting zone, the stroke has collapsed. It is because we will still be thinking of the form of a static stroke when Federer himself is making adjustments, sometimes slight and sometimes massive, to give himself the best shot possible.
 

Curious

Legend
I didn’t mean it that way. What I am saying is that unless you start young a lot of those base fundamentals are never going to be ingrained. It is not a question of laziness.

What we do here is focus too much on static form. By the third stroke when one has to move and hit the ball where the bounce doesn’t come nicely to the hitting zone, the stroke has collapsed. It is because we will still be thinking of the form of a static stroke when Federer himself is making adjustments, sometimes slight and sometimes massive, to give himself the best shot possible.
Sure, it may never become very good as you say I started learning too late. But again Federer’s adjustment with a funny ball is nothing magical. You know what they say, the ball will come to all sorts of weird spots and it’s your job to move to those balls in such a way that you’re in good balanced position to hit them well, a.k.a footwork and that can be trained and improved.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Sure, it may never become very good as you say I started learning too late. But again Federer’s adjustment with a funny ball is nothing magical. You know what they say, the ball will come to all sorts of weird spots and it’s your job to move to those balls in such a way that you’re in good balanced position to hit them well, a.k.a footwork and that can be trained and improved.
Not just footwork though. The stroke itself changes. The base things comprising the stroke that has been ingrained over the years remain.

What you say is correct though. Do what makes it fun for you. If emulating a pro makes it more fun there is nothing wrong with that.
 

Curious

Legend
@mcs1970
In this video for example would you agree that maybe in 50% of the shots my movement and positioning to hit the ball wasn’t really bad? Why shouldn’t I be able to increase that percentage by working on it?


 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Yeah, it’s actually bloody simple and easy to do. Don’t know how and why it took so long to get it.
I know you’ll jump into the differences between my forehand and Federer’s but don’t waste your time as they’re just the insignificant details. Yes my independent racket take back with the arm is still bigger than his (I fixed it after the slow mo video was taken) and I don’t straighten my arm ( i actually can’t btw, some physical restriction there ) but the main thing is his turn-drop-swing style, the compactness.


I applaud your determination and never ending desire for improvement.
Oh, also, the fact that you’re actually posting video of yourself takes courage.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
@mcs1970
In this video for example would you agree that maybe in 50% of the shots my movement and positioning to hit the ball wasn’t really bad? Why shouldn’t I be able to increase that percentage by working on it?


Saying again. The point was not to pick on you. Sorry if it came that way. Your form is good when it comes to where you are expecting. Practice moving front to back and side to side too. Even if only 30 mins That is what causes issues for us in games.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
Do you believe any of the pros were taught to model their strokes as per other pros from the start ot that came later after they had other things such as footwork, micro adjustments, point of contact, and many other things in place? Federer’s fh itself has evolved and is not the same as the one he used against Sampras at Wimbledon. You coach high level kids if I am not wrong? What is your general advice?

The problem with rec play and emulating a pro is that most of the times emphasis is only on a static form and not all the other things. Casual or not you can see tons of bad habits on curious’s wall hitting session. I am guilty of the same. This is why things break down when in a match for most rec players. Plus when you start moving and you are thinking more about form than instinctively hit, your stroke starts to break down.

Your perspective might be a bit different having coached high level kids who were putting effort into the other prerequisites too and already had certain key things in place.
I was coaching some high-level kids in the late 90s thru the 00s. Since then, mostly intermediate level adults or kids wanting to play on their HS (varsity) team or their Jr HS team. Also, couple of young competitive badminton players who wanted to play college tennis.

Semi-retired now. The only high-level players I've worked with in the past couple of years have been those who needed help with their serve mechanics.

With high-level students, not necessarily emulating a single player for any given stroke. More a composite or commonalities of some of the top pros. In fact, have gotten a few students away from emulating one specific pro. Some of them overly enamored with the reverse finish because of Nadal. A couple, with big serves (115+ mph) had been emulating Stanimal. And, like Stan, has started to develop shoulder problems.

When high-level juniors or semi-pros are emulating specific players, they are often doing so on their own. Many of these players are excellent mimics. They can pick up the mechanics or footwork patterns of pro / elite players often without much outside instruction.
 

AnyPUG

Professional
Just don’t tell others it is a textbook shot that is similar to one of the ATGs of the modern era
And Curios should not even say he plays tennis and cause unnecessary consternation - an authentic great sport played by rare legends such as Fed, and Nadal and some great rec players in SoCal.
 
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Fintft

Legend
I didn’t mean it that way. What I am saying is that unless you start young a lot of those base fundamentals are never going to be ingrained. It is not a question of laziness.

What we do here is focus too much on static form. By the third stroke when one has to move and hit the ball where the bounce doesn’t come nicely to the hitting zone, the stroke has collapsed. It is because we will still be thinking of the form of a static stroke when Federer himself is making adjustments, sometimes slight and sometimes massive, to give himself the best shot possible.
Roger and Rafa, on the other hand, don't plant their feet too early and keep making small adjustment steps...
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, it’s actually bloody simple and easy to do. Don’t know how and why it took so long to get it.
I know you’ll jump into the differences between my forehand and Federer’s but don’t waste your time as they’re just the insignificant details. Yes my independent racket take back with the arm is still bigger than his (I fixed it after the slow mo video was taken) and I don’t straighten my arm ( i actually can’t btw, some physical restriction there ) but the main thing is his turn-drop-swing style, the compactness.




Hey your swing is all good and nice inside the house, but do you have reference points or ways to remember or tell your body to swing it like that?

It's all mumbo jumbo in my head. As a result the swing comes out in all sorts of forms!!!! :)

If we look at Federer, most of his FH strokes look identical to one another.
 

Curious

Legend
do you have reference points or ways to remember or tell your body to swing it like that?
Yes, mate. The crucial thing is to resist the temptation to take the racket back with the arm independently of the torso turn as I explained in the first video. That’s the biggest hurdle, once you’re over that the rest is very very easy.
 
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