Federer forehand code cracked

Fintft

Legend
I think Curious meant fun and some trolling as well to attract views n replies.

I mean, there's literally 1000s of Fed fh clips publicly available for viewing, analyzing.

What secret is Fed keeping that needs a TT poaster to crack?

This is akin to someone running to a group n claiming he has discovered the wonder of sliced bread.
Sir, how many of your partners can do the ATP lag?
Mine crack me up. The best I had left town and even some cosches at my club are iffy in regards to lag...
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
Sir, how many of your partners can do the ATP lag?
Mine crack me up. The best I had left town and even some cosches at my club are iffy in regards to lag...
It's not about how much you lag (although there are some advantages) but more about that you allow lag to what ever extent is comfy for you.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
You still want some middle ground though: ATP take back with the tip of the racquet pointing up(not forward), so that you can do the big "C", to build the momentum.
I have serious doubt that momentum has much to d with anything and may tend to restrict the lag to some degree.
 

Curious

Legend
To me the point we disagree on is the term “cracking the code”.
Well, considering the myth that only Federer can hit the Federer forehand, when you find out that others can actually do it too and what he does is quite understandable and actually “simple”, you feel as though you’ve cracked a code. But the thing is there’s really no code to be cracked! There are myths to be busted.
 

Raul_SJ

G.O.A.T.
You still want some middle ground though: ATP take back with the tip of the racquet pointing up(not forward), so that you can do the big "C", to build the momentum.
I have serious doubt that momentum has much to d with anything and may tend to restrict the lag to some degree.
Some of these newer players (Kyrgios, Sock) are generating record high racquet head speed by having the tip pointing forward, not up.

This suggests that racquet head tip up position to generate momentum is not critical.


 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
It will be similar to this recent practice . Hopefully a higher quality this time with more compact forehands, more balanced movement, cleaner contacts.
Notice how your best looking shots, 1:02, 1:12 & 1:47 (imo) all had important similarities? Each one is one the rise or at the apex of the bounce, where you took a strong level cut. You didn't swing with the same confidence on lower rising balls and don't commit to a stronger biting spin on the balls dropping from the Apex of the bounce.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Well, considering the myth that only Federer can hit the Federer forehand, when you find out that others can actually do it too and what he does is quite understandable and actually “simple”, you feel as though you’ve cracked a code. But the thing is there’s really no code to be cracked! There are myths to be busted.
Curious is da man with a mission.

When do we get to see your next video?

When i feel down your videos give me some comfort.

I think im gonna spend some $$ to improve tennis like u ve done. Sir Curius
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
Not early enough in front still to generate high topspin - and the reason you don’t hit it early enough is because you don’t transfer your body weight forward much at all. Watch most slow motion videos of the pros and see how much their body is propelled forward (in many cases they go airborne) when they hit their FH.

When you start mentioning your FH in the same rarefied air as that of Federer, you shouldn’t be surprised if other posters point out your failings in gory detail. For the level you play, it is a decent FH. Just don’t tell others it is a textbook shot that is similar to one of the ATGs of the modern era
Weight transfer -> top spin?
Are you feeling mendacious? lol
 

Curious

Legend
I think im gonna spend some $$ to improve tennis like u ve done.
Dollars yeah. For those curious I’m not a rich man. I had a little chat with my wife a couple of months ago. I said “ I want to tell you something but don’t know how to”. Her face got serious. Maybe thought “God! An affair? Gay?” She said “what?” her voice trembling.
I want to spend some money to get tennis lessons.
Had a nice nervous laugh from relief that it wasn’t what she feared. And said exactly his: come on, seriously, at this age, you wanna be Federer?
Then asked, how much? I said, quite a bit, can I not say it? But honey, the good news is I’ll work some extra hours to cover that ( I guess I had a subconscious feeling that the money might go wasted in the end lol ). Anyway, if this is not true love of tennis, what is, guys?:D
 

cortado

Semi-Pro
Yeah, it’s actually bloody simple and easy to do. Don’t know how and why it took so long to get it.
I know you’ll jump into the differences between my forehand and Federer’s but don’t waste your time as they’re just the insignificant details. Yes my independent racket take back with the arm is still bigger than his (I fixed it after the slow mo video was taken) and I don’t straighten my arm ( i actually can’t btw, some physical restriction there ) but the main thing is his turn-drop-swing style, the compactness.




Some of these are looking like a Tomic forehand (which is no bad thing).
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Dollars yeah. For those curious I’m not a rich man. I had a little chat with my wife a couple of months ago. I said “ I want to tell you something but don’t know how to”. Her face got serious. Maybe thought “God! An affair? Gay?” She said “what?” her voice trembling.
I want to spend some money to get tennis lessons.
Had a nice nervous laugh from relief that it wasn’t what she feared. And said exactly his: come on, seriously, at this age, you wanna be Federer?
Then asked, how much? I said, quite a bit, can I not say it? But honey, the good news is I’ll work some extra hours to cover that ( I guess I had a subconscious feeling that the money might go wasted in the end lol ). Anyway, if this is not true love of tennis, what is, guys?:D
I learned from my tennis friend, a 65 yrs old guy, to keep two walllets.

The official one always has like $20 and odd change n fam pix, that sort of craps.

In the 2nd wallet he kept hundreds and a small paper phone book. He is old school n still using a flip phone. Don't think he can be tracked or need to txt or clear history.

It's hilarious when we need to pay a restaurant bill.
 

Digital Atheist

Professional
But I’m sure you’re aware that that is the most commonly given reason why women have WTA forehand although I always disagreed with it thinking similar to you. So what’s your view about the reason why women have WTA forehand?
Imo there seems to be a shortening of the takeback occurring, with more women on the tour falling into the so called ATP category, and several more with elements that make their forehand some kind of hybrid (for want of a better word).

Sakkari, Brady, Kasatkina, Ferro, Teichman, Badosa, Kostyuk, Jabeur, Rybakina, Podoroska all look like a modern same side forehand (I bet there are more). There may be some differences to the men in general or in some cases, since I haven't studied this heavily.

Sabalenka has a big backswing but it doesn't seem to go way past the body line (breaking the plain or whatever it's called) like Madison Keys, so probably not ATP but close.

Muchova & Sevastova have a similar stroke with not that much lag, but the racquet is still on the same side with a decent loop.

Barty has one of the best forehands on the tour with quite a large loop and she does supinate before going into her forward swing, unlike the men, but from that point her stroke has a lot of ATP characteristics (or so I've been told).

Kudermetova, Mertens, Konta, Giorgi, Anisimova, Martic (??), Muguruza all have relatively short backswings, most on the same side or close, generally not breaking the plain with the arm, and these are what I call a hybrid - they may not be what is often termed ATP but they are still different to the classic WTA model - a standard example of that might be Halep, Svitolina, Vekic, or Pavlyuchenkova.

I don't know how to classify Swiatek, but hybrid might be best - one things for sure, it's a monster forehand, but she does seem to like time to hit it.

Interestingly I saw some stats on fastest forehands and fastest average forehands from before Roland Garros started, and it's Kudermetova who on average hits one of the biggest balls - I would not have picked that.


So I think the times are changing. Edit: Maybe those with more knowledge can offer their thoughts on this.

One more interesting observation - even the likes of Krejcikova, who has a standard WTA sized backswing, doesn't strike the ball like Venus Williams or Anna Ivanevic. She is more like Barty in her contact and release into the follow through, with an ability to generate more topspin because of it. And I think it's fair to say her forehand is doing some damage at the moment.

Edit: Zidansek needs added to this list, since her "hybrid" forehand is a beast, and it is her best shot by far (her backhand is another story).

@Curious, what you are doing is probably good for your tennis if it is helping your forehand consistency - the question is what does your coach say about all this? Just don't become too obsessed with the really short backswing, or you may end up here:


All this I totally agree with. But the key here is you talk about copying key elements of a modern fh vs curious categorically stating he has cracked the code of Fed’s fh. There is a vast difference between the two. Anyway to each his own. .
That was kinda my point about the rabbit hole earlier.
 
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Curious

Legend
- the question is what does your coach say about all this?
I’m afraid he may not find this sort of talk interesting.:)
He’s an expert in how tennis should be played. About the details of stroke mechanics he’s just a fundamentals guy. I’m sure he can go into the details but maybe he chooses not to. If an element of a stroke is not significantly flawed I don’t think he cares about it. But thinking about it now there are things that he reminds me constantly. For example lack of forward extension and not finishing high on both sides. Never misses an error in what my feet are doing. A few other things that I might need to write down as they happen maybe later.
 

Digital Atheist

Professional
I’m afraid he may not find this sort of talk interesting.:)
He’s an expert in how tennis should be played.
Of course, I wasn't referring to his thoughts on WTA versus ATP (edit: my bad for not being clear once again). I was more interested in what he wants you to do regarding your swing - it's shape, size, backswing, loop etc. which you have answered, thanks!

I’m sure he can go into the details but maybe he chooses not to. If an element of a stroke is not significantly flawed I don’t think he cares about it
I think most here would recognise that as a good thing.
 
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Curious

Legend
Of course, I wasn't referring to his thoughts on WTA versus ATP. I was more interested in what he wants you to do regarding your swing - it's shape, size, backswing, loop etc. which you have answered, thanks!
The thing is I pay for the lessons and also as I value everything he says I try not to interrupt the flow and waste time by asking about things that I obsess about. Also most of the time is spent on drills, patterns, footwork, shot selection and game plan.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
If an element of a stroke is not significantly flawed I don’t think he cares about it. But thinking about it now there are things that he reminds me constantly. For example lack of forward extension and not finishing high on both sides. Never misses an error in what my feet are doing. A few other things that I might need to write down as they happen maybe later.
U know, the devil is in the details. Something u may see small or invisible to your eyes may just be a huge thing that change your game in a big way.

For example when i switched to feeling mostly bevel 3 in my palm, as opposed to the whole handle, my hitting became much stronger.

There's subtle things to do to not have the hugging look or arming in our fh but not too much that it looks overrotating n losing leverage. Has your coach helped u in that area?
 

Curious

Legend
U know, the devil is in the details. Something u may see small or invisible to your eyes may just be a huge thing that change your game in a big way.

For example when i switched to feeling mostly bevel 3 in my palm, as opposed to the whole handle, my hitting became much stronger.
I agree and really feel the same. Mind you I’m also quite wary having had a lot of short lived pseudoeurekas over the years! :D
There's subtle things to do to not have the hugging look or arming in our fh but not too much that it looks overrotating n losing leverage. Has your coach helped u in that area?
He tries and tries, never tired of telling me to correct those sort of issues as he sees them.
 

Fintft

Legend
I have serious doubt that momentum has much to d with anything and may tend to restrict the lag to some degree.
Can't find the exact video, but here is another one that talks about momentum(due to the circular loop), plus lag:
 

Fintft

Legend
Some of these newer players (Kyrgios, Sock) are generating record high racquet head speed by having the tip pointing forward, not up.

This suggests that racquet head tip up position to generate momentum is not critical.


Terrrible example Sock, imho, or at least not typical.
 

Curious

Legend
Well, no lag at all, aka tense arm is not good.
One of the other important factors to create lag is where you drop the racket tip.
The more to the right the better for more lag.
On a clock face look at different angles/direction of drop for Federer, Djokovic, Halep and Edmund below and think about the lag these players create.


 

Jay_The_Nomad

Professional
You are overthinking this. Just stay relaxed and smooth throughout the stroke. And let the lag happen. Everyone has bio mechanical differences eg shoulder and torso flexibility. So no need to be dogmatic about it or try to copy a particular pro precisely. Lag on the left or right does not matter for lag.

Where you racquet lays back ie left or right of you depends on whether you hit through the ball in a moreforward path or have a more circular swing path that goes across your body. Nothing to do with lag.

When you’re making your video, just focus on compact swing. And explosive forward motion for RHS… and make clean contact in front. Don’t over think anything else.

One of the other important factors to create lag is where you drop the racket tip.
The more to the right the better for more lag.
On a clock face look at different angles/direction of drop for Federer, Djokovic, Halep and Edmund below and think about the lag these players create
 

Curious

Legend
You are overthinking this. Just stay relaxed and smooth throughout the stroke. And let the lag happen. Everyone has bio mechanical differences eg shoulder and torso flexibility. So no need to be dogmatic about it or try to copy a particular pro precisely. Lag on the left or right does not matter for lag.

Where you racquet lays back ie left or right of you depends on whether you hit through the ball in a moreforward path or have a more circular swing path that goes across your body. Nothing to do with lag.

When you’re making your video, just focus on compact swing. And explosive forward motion for RHS… and make clean contact in front. Don’t over think anything else.
I’ve just explained a factor in the mechanics of creating a lag to point out that being loose alone is not enough. That’s all. I’m not calculating angles when I’m playing!:D
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
The thing is I pay for the lessons and also as I value everything he says I try not to interrupt the flow and waste time by asking about things that I obsess about. Also most of the time is spent on drills, patterns, footwork, shot selection and game plan.
Are you going to sign up for some competitive tennis league? Its a great way to improve and will expose you to a lot of playstyles. In terms of what he's teaching you I think it would be good to apply it to a setting like that
 

Curious

Legend
Are you going to sign up for some competitive tennis league? Its a great way to improve and will expose you to a lot of playstyles. In terms of what he's teaching you I think it would be good to apply it to a setting like that
Yeah, seriously considering it now that my knee has been feeling much better. The only problem is all leagues involve doubles matches as well and I’ve completely lost interest in doubles.
 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
Yeah, seriously considering it now that my knee has been feeling much better. The only problem is all leagues involve doubles matches as well and I’ve completely lost interest in doubles.
i'm not a fan of doubles either, but its good practice to be a big more aggressive. bigger serves, bigger return of serves, bigger groundstrokes, more volleys
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Have another nice day fellas :)


Another nice video!

I agree with you about Federer and timing.

Timing is extremely dynamic and even personal, preferential for many players. Meaning, some prefer 'on time', or early or late and quick. No wonder it's got very little discussion in this place.

I'm going thru a funk with my ground strokes at the moment. The cause is from my obsession with the nonhitting arm, hitting arm actions, etc. haha I'm kinda rebuilding everything..again. Sounds familiar? :laughing::laughing::laughing: It's hella fun.

Don't forget to hone your timing, bud.

(what happened to our bud BBP ? :unsure:This place doesn't feel the same without his random, lengthy musing :-D)
 
Arm isn’t straight. Can’t be doing the same thing he is doing, if it is bent. Same with Nadal. Explanation is too long, but it is nearly, if not actually, biomechanically impossible to get the same shot/effect if not straight. A lot of handwringing about arming the ball in this thread, but that is exactly the point of their unique stroke. Ever see the arm of a catapult with a 30 degree bend in it? What would be the point? Your short backswing is just going to limit your power with that bent arm. You look more like Zverev’s older brother, currently. He was a pro, though.
 

Curious

Legend
Arm isn’t straight. Can’t be doing the same thing he is doing, if it is bent. Same with Nadal. Explanation is too long, but it is nearly, if not actually, biomechanically impossible to get the same shot/effect if not straight. A lot of handwringing about arming the ball in this thread, but that is exactly the point of their unique stroke. Ever see the arm of a catapult with a 30 degree bend in it? What would be the point? Your short backswing is just going to limit your power with that bent arm. You look more like Zverev’s older brother, currently. He was a pro, though.
And people blame me for trying to have the exact copy of Federer forehand!
If I was asked what’s the least crucial thing in Federer forehand, I would say the straight arm. By the way his arm is not really always straight. For that look at Nadal and Verdasco.
 
And people blame me for trying to have the exact copy of Federer forehand!
If I was asked what’s the least crucial thing in Federer forehand, I would say the straight arm. By the way his arm is not really always straight. For that look at Nadal and Verdasco.
It has to be done a certain way, or it is something else. The typical ATP forehand with a bent arm (think Djokovic) has upper body and arm linked to bring racquet to contact. With the arm in the bent position, the bicep and shoulder are somewhat contracted making everything one piece toward contact. When you straighten the arm, you give that up and you swing the arm independently save for the fact that your skeleton connects them. (The fact that you have lag does keep the muscles taught). That is the only way to get the necessary rhs. Imagine you have painted your bedroom and after putting the dresser back against the wall one side is an inch further out. Would you have your arm bent and your hand closer to your shoulder to push it, or would you get as far from it as possible to where your hand barely reaches and try and push it that way? One way is built for power (bent arm) and the other for speed (straight). Rafa and Fed have short backswings, and need to create rhs quickly. Therefore, they swing the arm as fast as possible. Other ATPers need longer swing to build speed. Two different approaches.
Are you saying Verdasco and Nadal have bent arms heading toward contact? If so, I would think only due to bad spacing.
 

Curious

Legend
It has to be done a certain way, or it is something else. The typical ATP forehand with a bent arm (think Djokovic) has upper body and arm linked to bring racquet to contact. With the arm in the bent position, the bicep and shoulder are somewhat contracted making everything one piece toward contact. When you straighten the arm, you give that up and you swing the arm independently save for the fact that your skeleton connects them. (The fact that you have lag does keep the muscles taught). That is the only way to get the necessary rhs. Imagine you have painted your bedroom and after putting the dresser back against the wall one side is an inch further out. Would you have your arm bent and your hand closer to your shoulder to push it, or would you get as far from it as possible to where your hand barely reaches and try and push it that way? One way is built for power (bent arm) and the other for speed (straight). Rafa and Fed have short backswings, and need to create rhs quickly. Therefore, they swing the arm as fast as possible. Other ATPers need longer swing to build speed. Two different approaches.
Are you saying Verdasco and Nadal have bent arms heading toward contact? If so, I would think only due to bad spacing.
Sorry but it sounds like a made up explanation to me. I don’t think there’s any other significant factors apart from maybe the slightly extended leverage which could be negated by the additional swingweight by the way as it may slow down the swing.
Anyway, I’m not fussed about the straight arm at all and also as I mentioned before, you probably didn’t read, my right elbow has some reduced range of motion/limited extension physically anyway.
 
Sorry but it sounds like a made up explanation to me. I don’t think there’s any other significant factors apart from maybe the slightly extended leverage which could be negated by the additional swingweight by the way as it may slow down the swing.
Anyway, I’m not fussed about the straight arm at all and also as I mentioned before, you probably didn’t read, my right elbow has some reduced range of motion/limited extension physically anyway.
There is nothing special about Fed's straight arm vs your slightly bent arm. As long as you have everyhthing else in place the effect will be the similar at least from a practical point of view. Your observation is also correct: Federer doesn't always hit with an absolutely straight arm: because his positions do not allow it, because even he is not always timing the ball well, or because he is lazy (when training).

It is that level of trying to copy the pros that is most detrimental to the efforts of learning a shot: instead of following the idea behind the shot and the proper execution, people are enamoured with the slightest differences of how it looks.

:cool:
 
Sorry but it sounds like a made up explanation to me. I don’t think there’s any other significant factors apart from maybe the slightly extended leverage which could be negated by the additional swingweight by the way as it may slow down the swing.
Anyway, I’m not fussed about the straight arm at all and also as I mentioned before, you probably didn’t read, my right elbow has some reduced range of motion/limited extension physically anyway.
You said you couldn’t straighten it but I don’t recall whether you said physical problem or that you just couldn’t during the stroke. One video pro said it was a genetic predisposition whether one could do it or not. That was funny!
Oh, and not made up. That is why there is so much misunderstanding. Two completely different styles.
 
You said you couldn’t straighten it but I don’t recall whether you said physical problem or that you just couldn’t during the stroke. One video pro said it was a genetic predisposition whether one could do it or not. That was funny!
Oh, and not made up. That is why there is so much misunderstanding. Two completely different styles.
It is not a genetic predisposition, it is a physical limitation that some people have: probably because of injury, lack of flexibility or lack of stability/strength.

You are confusing a slightly bent arm with a bent arm by design. Most players with SW grip would play with a bent arm. In Curious's case the slightly bent arm is a byproduct of his physical limitation, not of his bad execution. Think of it as a lever that cannot be fully utilised by extending to its extreme position: it will still work as a lever with approximately the same effectiveness (the difference is too small to yield very different result). Now, if that bent arm was influencing his rotation in the shot that could have a more significant effect, but that depends on many more things and we do not have that information anyway.


:cool:
 

Curious

Legend
We’ve heard it so many times, right? Oh you shouldn’t copy pros, only Federer can hit Federer forehand blah blah. I guess these guys just go silent when copying works!




 
It is not a genetic predisposition,
Yeah, I know. That is why I thought it was funny when Nikola, or whatever his name is, said it.
I understand physical limitations too. I couldn’t hit a 2hbh if I wanted due to falling from the rim on an asphalt basketball court and shattering the end of my radius. No range of motion in left wrist.
 

Dragy

Legend
you swing the arm independently save for the fact that your skeleton connects them.
This is not fully correct at minimum. With proper shoulder position (full ESR) arm is propelled forward by torso rotation with shoulder locking it from falling farther back, with straight arm or bent:


With bent arm or straight players may push their hand more forward almost till contact, as on Nadal picture above, or “release” arm and racquet earlier to pivot and work the outside of the ball (Nadal above is following “inside track”). Watch Medvedev for more “release” and longer “independent” arm swing with bent arm, particularly on CC shots.

I believe arm structure has effect on the techniques, particularly on distribution of effort, tension and speeds. More lever of straight/near straight arms works with slower “arm” swings and creating most RHS closer to the end of the “lever”. Bent arm hitters, like Edmund or Kyrgios, may need to fasten their elbows and forearms to higher speeds to achieve same RHS. Also, they have bigger displacement from ISR axis, so picking more from it. Guys in the middle like Nole or Stan are, well, in the middle… It is much more about personal groove than fundamental difference. Different grips also have their effect, with bent arm strokes not working very well with easternish grips.

Back to @Curious, he hits it well enough, and minor bend in the elbow is not dramatic. More balls to hit live focusing on good prep timing and full uncoil+extension will solidify the swing and build up confidence and efficiency. I have zero doubt as of today.

PS @Curious thread title was brilliant and paid back in spades!
 

Curious

Legend
I was a little rusty after 2 weeks of no hitting on court, felt pressure from TT crowd watching:p, wasn’t watching the ball properly, it was dark and blah and blah blah. A lot of balls go too long but I was told that it's a high level error lol!
Anyway guys, tennis strokes are really easy, but once you add moving to a moving ball it becomes rocket science all of a sudden. Let’s all focus on improving movement and balance.


 

StringSnapper

Hall of Fame
I was a little rusty after 2 weeks of no hitting on court, felt pressure from TT crowd watching:p, wasn’t watching the ball properly, it was dark and blah and blah blah. A lot of balls go too long but I was told that it's a high level error lol!
Anyway guys, tennis strokes are really easy, but once you add moving to a moving ball it becomes rocket science all of a sudden. Let’s all focus on improving movement and balance.


I think it's the opposite - it becomes more about the spiritual woo woo world of "feel" and "intuition"
 

Dragy

Legend
I was a little rusty after 2 weeks of no hitting on court, felt pressure from TT crowd watching:p, wasn’t watching the ball properly, it was dark and blah and blah blah. A lot of balls go too long but I was told that it's a high level error lol!
Anyway guys, tennis strokes are really easy, but once you add moving to a moving ball it becomes rocket science all of a sudden. Let’s all focus on improving movement and balance.


Just an observation, your shots here have moderate spin. Keep that in mind when you make your intention on depth and net clearance - it’s easy to hit long. Meanwhile, you can rely on good penetration by default, without extra effort and hitting crap out of the ball. When you play points, trust your default shot, especially when putting balls away or approaching from inside the court. Pick a direction to hit, aim a bit lower over the net, let it happen and follow to the net.

Good thing you can do is learn to trust your shot to be both safe enough and good enough.
Bad attitude might be trying to ramp up the power and effort more and more to hit blistering shots on tap.
 

Curious

Legend
Just an observation, your shots here have moderate spin. Keep that in mind when you make your intention on depth and net clearance - it’s easy to hit long. Meanwhile, you can rely on good penetration by default, without extra effort and hitting crap out of the ball. When you play points, trust your default shot, especially when putting balls away or approaching from inside the court. Pick a direction to hit, aim a bit lower over the net, let it happen and follow to the net.

Good thing you can do is learn to trust your shot to be both safe enough and good enough.
Bad attitude might be trying to ramp up the power and effort more and more to hit blistering shots on tap.
Good point, mate. That’s also what I thought at the end ( when the battery of ball machine died) and I went very close to the fence and hit hand fed forehands as deep as possible with a lot of spin, just to get the hang of spin production by fast windshield wiper action. It was a great practice.
 
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