joekapa
Legend
They are not that similar buddy. If you had to say who is similar, it would be Nadal and Murray. They both hang way further back than Djokovic.
Federer honest about the mental block against Rafa in interview
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Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Yeah, because he's better now. My entire point.
joekapa
Legend
So was Nadal.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Fed was 13-6 in 2010 against Novak including 4-1 in major wins. Next.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Yeah I mainly meant from a defensive god standpoint.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Exactly. Fed was better before 2013, Djokovic became better after.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Yeah and I was talking about POST Wimbledon 2012. Perhaps read my comments in full before regurgitating easy to find statistics.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
Post Wimb 2012 - Fed had no business to be on tour. He is doing a charity to ATP/ITF sticking around , as otherwise the tour sucks and is spearheaded by the most boring rivalry ever.
joekapa
Legend
Federer was playing against Djokovic.
Djokovic was playing against Federer + 20,000 screaming Federer fans who would cheer faults and double faults.
That match, in my mind, will always go down as the epitome of psychological strength ever seen on a tennis court. Djokovic was simply in the zone. Hypnotized. And it showed in his celebration.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Yup. No arguments here. What I was originally saying which has been twisted every which way was that Djokovic seemed to develop a Rafa-esque mental edge on Federer post 2012. Yeah, Federer beat him in a bunch of BO3's. Didn't get it done in the ones that mattered most. These are just facts. Throwing statistics at facts doesn't skew the reality that Djokovic has destroyed him in majors since 2012.
Omega_7000
Legend
Are you saying Murray and Djokovic had the same level of play 2011 to 2016?
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
No no, just @ the level Federer exhibited in dispatching Andy, especially on his favorite surface, led me to believe he'd be good enough to beat Novak too, and perhaps should have in 2014. 2015 Wimbledon final however I remember being much less competitive.
R_Federer
Professional
Right, Nadal was in his prime. Federer also was not at his peak in 2006-2007. His preak was 2003-2005.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
90's Clay level tap dancing now. Come on, you're better than that. I'm not saying Federer was completely inept against a historically good Djokovic. I'm just saying it's highly unfair to Djokovic to try to diminish what he accomplished during that time. Yeah, it wasn't prime Federer. But in most of those tournaments he was playing good enough tennis up til the match to beat him and didn't get the job done.
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
Exactly. Those Slam meetings weren't matches weren't about lasting longer. Fed wasn't always smoked, but was almost always behind in those matches from the very start. He didn't even have a big number of long matches in recent years to suggest he can't last for 3+ hours anymore.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
There's been a lot of time. Federer beat Nadal at the WTF and at Basel in 2015.
They haven't met at a Slam Final since 2009, exactly 8 years ago. Nothing at that time can be considered now. Let's also not forget as most do, that Federer is 5 years older than Nadal and not in the same generation, he's a cross generation like Connors, Lendl and Agassi were. Now that Nadal is past his prime, Federer no longer has that big hurdle, although him coming back after 6 months is a disadvantage for sure.
They haven't met at a Slam Final since 2009, exactly 8 years ago. Nothing at that time can be considered now. Let's also not forget as most do, that Federer is 5 years older than Nadal and not in the same generation, he's a cross generation like Connors, Lendl and Agassi were. Now that Nadal is past his prime, Federer no longer has that big hurdle, although him coming back after 6 months is a disadvantage for sure.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Bingo, I certainly wouldn't cite fatigue as to why he lost Wimbledon 2014 + US 2015 finals. In the former, Federer had break pts in the decisive set, all of the momentum from stealing the 4th set, and just got simply outclassed by a more clutch Djokovic. The latter, even more maddening, saw Djokovic playing much below his vintage level and still dealing with Federer quite convincingly.
Honestly to even entertain the thought that Federer's form 2012-2017 is comparable to Djokovic is crazy talk. I can say with 100 percent confidence I was 0 percent confident in any of those matches against Djokovic..because he was THAT good. I don't understand why some people can't just give credit where it is due. Perhaps after Djokovic retires and people can look back on it more impartially and introspectively, they'll appreciate what he brought to the game.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
fed is usually the favorite on courts like basel and wtf, so idk if him beating nadal at basel a few years ago means much. While they haven't met in a final since 2009, they have met here in 2012 and 2014 and each time, rafa won and in 2014 rafa straight setted him. i mean, considering that rafa beat him in in 5 sets, then 4, and then 3, I am hoping something gives and fed wins against rafa should rafa make it to the finals
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fed needs to be at his peakest level to beat 2015 Novak. That's why it's an unfair comparison. You're basically comparing arguably the best ever version of Djokovic with a Federer who was in the twilight of his career.
Tell me again. Why was Federer supposed to win given this aspect? Just because he beat Murray? Or Stan?
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
I'm curious which matches those would be? I've watched them all many times and I can't think of any match Fed won against Rafa that he should have lost. Are you thinking about Miami 2005? That would be just about the only one, and that's questionable since Nadal got visibly tired and faded, 3-6, 1-6 in the last two sets.
The dynamic of Federer's rivalry with Nadal and Djokovic is almost completely irrelevant to the AO 2017 final, assuming Nadal gets to the final.
They haven't played at a Major since the AO 2014, when both were at very different ages, forms, etc. I haven't watched a lot of Nadal's game, but to think that he has the same game today after his decline and bad years since 2014, seems a stretch. That isn't to disparage what he's done as obviously he's playing with more confidence and has probably made subtle adjustments to get this far at the AO after a couple years of QF at best at Majors.
It shouldn't be forgotten that he had a very serious possibility of winning the FO last year if not for getting injured. He was playing strong on clay, so who knows what would have happened in a hypothetical FO match with Djokovic.
They haven't played at a Major since the AO 2014, when both were at very different ages, forms, etc. I haven't watched a lot of Nadal's game, but to think that he has the same game today after his decline and bad years since 2014, seems a stretch. That isn't to disparage what he's done as obviously he's playing with more confidence and has probably made subtle adjustments to get this far at the AO after a couple years of QF at best at Majors.
It shouldn't be forgotten that he had a very serious possibility of winning the FO last year if not for getting injured. He was playing strong on clay, so who knows what would have happened in a hypothetical FO match with Djokovic.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
I repeat. Federer never had mental problems vs Djokovic. Theres absolutely nothing that proves this. They guy went 50/50 with a top 5 GOAT aged 33-34. Djokovic has way more issues than Federer because he pwned everyone else at the time yet lost half of his matches vs Fed.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Which match are we talking about, Wimbledon 2014? I don't think he "should" have beaten Djokovic, but out of all of his major losses to him since 2012, that was the one that sticks in my mind as by far the most winnable. The adrenaline alone from "stealing" the fourth set, crowd on his side, all of the momentum, break pts, that was definitely his chance to slay new age Djokovic.
I wasn't even comparing the two originally, I simply said it seemed that mentally, Djokovic established some dominance there post 2012, and if people don't want to agree with that, no problem. I just don't think statistics are really going to change my opinion on the mental ownage, because the key stats I look at there are Djokovic 4 to 0 in majors.
Comparing him to Muzz was a poor example, I concede, but I feel like if there's anyone on tour that has ever been in Federer's head as Nadal has (again my opinion)..it's Djokovic.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
The way I see it, if you develop a mental block against one of your biggest rivals, that's a credit to your opponent as it shows he's doing something right(i.e playing a high enough level of tennis) to get that edge over you in the first place. It's similar to how some people make out that Nadal only lost the 2011 Wimbledon final due to the mental block he had against Djokovic at the time but what was Novak supposed to do - lose the Rome final in order to make it a more even playing field for when they next faced each other? That kind of logic has never made sense to me. At the end of the day if your toughest challenger keeps beating you in big matches, then it's up to you to figure a way of turning things round. There's no point in trying to imply you had enough ability to win had you been stronger mentally when your mentality was weakened because you simply weren't good enough to begin with.
I wouldn't say Fed should have won W2008 against Nadal, as he was never up in the match and always coming from behind, but he had a chance there.
I think he should have won AO 2009, FO 2011, Rome 2006, and maybe to a lesser degree FO 2006 and 2007 where he had 20-something break points. He was in winning positions in all of those matches but it slipped away.
He also should have won USO 2009. Despite being a 2 Major year, 2009 was a huge missed opportunity as he really could have won all 4 that year.
Had a fair chance at Wimbledon 2014 as well and USO 2015.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Maybe you dont realize that majors are BO5? Federer cant play consistently great for more than 2'5 sets at the very most.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
I respect your opinion. "Proof" in this instance is arbitrary, some would tell you Nadal doesn't own Federer mentally. That he just owns him. Djokovic always took care of him when a monumental trophy was on the line.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Yeah and 3 of the 4 losses never even saw a fifth set...
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
sometimes I wonder how the rivalry would have panned out had fed won rome 2006. Obviously it is a moot point and perhaps it would have been the same, but I'm wondering if he would have managed to sneak out a few more wins.
I agree with this. The bottom line is that at the end of the day, short of cheating, a win is a win, whatever the reason.
However, when comparing player's greatness, you can't say that Djokovic's wins over Federer in 2014 and 2015 make him a greater player. Sure, greater and better those years, absolutely. However, it doesn't really say anything about Djokovic vs. Federer in terms of greatness, except for the accumulation of Majors. So Djokovic gained on Federer, but at the end of the day its still Djokovic with 12 Majors, Nadal and Sampras with 14, and Federer with 17...and then the stats on weeks #1, YE#1, ATP Finals, Masters etc.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Because Federer cant keep up at 34. Djokovics level stays the same while Federers starts dropping after a while. Whats so hard to understand here?
Or maybe age and decline doesnt apply to Federer?
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
I agree with all of this. Sadly I fear some Federer fans are actually delusional enough to think Federer was on the same level as Djokovic during Djokovic's utterly ridiculous years. Yeah, full credit to Federer for not getting completely whooped in the H2H overall during that time, but he did get whooped in the majors.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
2014 is absolutely the litmus but some serious differences from then:
At the time, Federer was coming off a crap 2013 (for him) and hadn't made a Final since 2012 Wimbledon. Nadal on the flip side had won his 2nd USO. He was absolutely a downgrade in 2015 and then another level lower in 2016. So that 3 year gap is significant. Unfortunately, Basel is all we have since.
And not that I believe in the "guy beat Nadal and Federer beat guy" but 2015 Cincinnati Federer handled Lopez after he beat Nadal, and pretty much Nadal just struggling with guys like Tsonga and Berdych on hard. This tournament is a bit of an aberration with his deep run but on the other hand he nearly lost to Zverev and got Monfils and Raonic.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
I understand. I just don't think it's that clear cut. I don't think that's the only reason he loses to him. I think mentality plays a role as well. Again, it's just an opinion. I'm not in the guys actual brain.
joekapa
Legend
I have had enough of Fed fans talking about 2005, as if Nadal was a veteran back then. It would be like Djokovic in 2011 thinking that Dimitrov was a rival. He wasn't.
They were not rivals in 2005 people !!!! Nadal was a clay court phenomenon back then, but that's about it. He wasn't a veteran back then.
Nadal became an all-courter from 2008 onwards. Compare those years.
They were not rivals in 2005 people !!!! Nadal was a clay court phenomenon back then, but that's about it. He wasn't a veteran back then.
Nadal became an all-courter from 2008 onwards. Compare those years.
Federer has been long gone past his best then - hence the reason why Djoko stepped up, because off-peak Fedal allowed him to. I very much doubt a Djokovic at the age of 35 will be anywhere close to GS quaterfinals lets alone finals.
NastyWinners
Hall of Fame
To me it's simple -- bad matchup. Fed knows it too which plays into his head. The high bounce gets out of his sweet zone so he either has to adjust and play back further than he wants to, which isn't his style, or take it off the rise which leads to better chances for shanks and mis-hits. Fed also likes to go inside out with the Fh which opens the door to Rafa's FH.
If Fed is to win in a potential matchup, he's going to need to attack the Rafa BH or power straight down the middle to open up angles. Along with hitting his spots on serve.
If Fed is to win in a potential matchup, he's going to need to attack the Rafa BH or power straight down the middle to open up angles. Along with hitting his spots on serve.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Ok let me ask the other way round. Why do you think Djokovic keeps losing to Federer in BO3? Dont tell me Djokovic doesnt care because he cares more than anyone else.
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
Definitely agreed about US 2015 final. Whether it's due to that fall early in the 1st set, the heckling from the crowd or something else doesn't matter, but Djokovic has had many better matches at the USO than that. 2015 was his finest season but people want to suggest it was peak Djokovic in every match of that year, like he didn't display lower levels from time to time. That's why Federer's few wins in non-Slam events, despite being impressive, are totally blown out of proportion.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
It's not that it isn't a factor, it's just that it's used as an automatic response to any time he loses nowadays. God forbid the other guy just outplayed him. I mean, in the USO 2015 Final, Federer had 23 break pts. Djokovic had almost 40 UE's. Federer responded with 56 UE's . Did that all happen just because he's old and feeble? Or did the pressure get to him. I feel like you're implying Federer is impervious to feeling the pressure against Djokovic. I just fail to believe there's a modicum of truth to that.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I'll give you Wimb 2014. But in the others Fed had virtually no chance. Which was proof that he wasn't better than ever.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
its probably a combination of things. obviously it didnt help that federer is at the tail end of his career, and djokovic was utterly dominant. it did kind of seem like fed would play djokovic the way he used to nadal, with really brainless tactics and I would think he had this, and then other times there was nothing he could absolutely do. I always felt like their rivalry was always an interesting one and perhaps underrated. Certainly not as clear cut as fedal's where from the very beginning fed struggled with nadal.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
I think he had his chances at USO 2015. Novak wasn't even playing all that well. Wimbledon 2015, was djokovic all the way
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Oh I absolutely 1000 percent agree with that and was never trying to say that Federer during that time window was at his peak. Just that there were a combination of factors that led to his defeats.
I feel like we are all trying to pinpoint it when the truth is probably that they're all factors and nobody is necessarily wrong here. Again, I cannot speak to the actual mental health / mindset of Federer. Only he knows his brain.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Agreed, from a form perspective - Wimbledon 2014 was most disappointing. From an opportunity perspective in the fact that Djokovic was far from vintage - 2015 USO really hurts.
@tennis_pro - Fair point about physicality there. Definitely have a good argument there with the BO3's and no I agree Djokovic would never tank a match or not focus on winning 100 percent. But I also think those BO3's are inherently less stakes involved and Federer is less likely to tense up. It's also of course easier to snowball a lead in a Bo3. I was never disagreeing with your points there.
tennisaddict
Bionic Poster
You do know that the mindset , preparation and how you pace yourself for a BO3 match bears no resemblance to BO5.
In fact , Andy Murray just made a poignant remark about this last week.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
If Nadal loses to Dimitrov tomorrow, it'll also be a fortune that Roger will have.
Federer and Del Potro
Bionic Poster
Which is exactly the genesis of my argument. That they're all factors. Physicality, mentality, preparation, etc. I was just focusing more on the mental aspect because the original post is.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well obviously it was mental. Federer knew that he has to play out of his comfort zone because physically he wasn't what he used to be. And that put a lot of pressure on him because he knew that once he fell behind it was over. No matter how good he was playing, at his age it was difficult to sustain a constant attack plan over 5 sets against a guy who was getting everything back.
The same would have happened to Djokovic had he been the 34 year old guy and Fed the 28 year old. Djokovic would have lost.
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