Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Ah, Sampras. The slayer of Piolines, Changs, Moyas and Martins of the world.
"Federer is focusing on the larger picture by skipping clay"
- Thread starter BeatlesFan
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kevaninho
Hall of Fame
No he failed to do that In 08 at MC, Hamburg, RG, W , onto 2009 AO .
Both at a very good level then .
Then in 2013 , Rafas greatest ever season, he feasted on him 4 times also ( even at the WTF, Cinci, and IW ) .
Roger cant live with the best version of Rafa.
Steve0904
Talk Tennis Guru
No he failed to do that In 08 at MC, Hamburg, RG, W , onto 2009 AO .
Both at a very good level then .
Then in 2013 , Rafas greatest ever season, he feasted on him 4 times also ( even at the WTF, Cinci, and IW ) .
Roger cant live with the best version of Rafa.
Tennis evolution at work. AO 2017 was peak Rafa, and he's only gotten better since then. Coincidentally, Federer has won every H2H match since and including Basel 2015.
roleaux987
New User
His results. This is an objective fact. Not an opinion. He wasn't winning big (or small) or going deep. And he was losing to complete mugs frequently. Federer is consistently winning big and small. Also he is not losing to complete mugs frequently enough for it to a problem. In fact he has less mug losess and more top 10 wins than the current world no1
Sampras tried and tried and tried and finally got a win, he didnt actually retire contrary to popular belief after that but couldnt do anything so called it quits when he realised this
More to the point who cares? If he cant win cos mentally he doesnt have it then its the same thing. He was done. You need mental, physical attributes to win and a combination of good luck and bad luck. Bottom line Sampras was done when he was done
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
I think if you look at Federers form in 2013 he was losing to mugs at a younger age than Sampras.
He just stuck around longer desperate to try and claim another slam.
Sampras had no interest in putting himself through that anymore.
Slightly D1
Professional
You can try to justify it all you want but its ridiculously lame that he is skipping the ENTIRE season without injury. At least play at RG dude.
zagor
Bionic Poster
He still wouldn't ( and couldn't ) beat peak Nadal mind you .
And Nadal couldn't beat peak Novak, so what? Not like peak Fed got a crack at Nadal anywhere but FO and Wimbledon.
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
The bigger picture
Morch Us
Hall of Fame
What comes after FO? Grass ...Wimbledon. Federers favourite. It is a ridiculous back and forth swing for folks to switch from hardcourt to clay and then back to grass. Anyone who played multiple surfaces totally know that Clay is a totally different sport as it is. So by skipping Clay, Federer puts himself at an advantage, ahead of the competition for Grass, just by avoiding the "style swinging" which his competion is (kind of) forced to do.
roleaux987
New User
Nope he was injured and actually still did decent. Pretty amazing how since 2004 that is literally it for his only dud year. Very high level:
04,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12,14,15,16,17, likely 18 too already has a slam and was briefly world no1
Amazing more so when you do the same for his peers hewitt, roddick, safin, aggassi, nadal, djokovic, murray, delpo, wawrinka and all other top 20 guys.
Pretty much all can claim 3 excellent full seasons only
Sampras every single year was a 2013 for him until he bagged a USO and then it was 2013 again. Of course he wasnt injured or playing with a new tacket so it was actually far worse. Dont thi k he had kids either as a player certainly not 4 and had little else going on outside of tennis
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Agreed, but as much as Fed fanatics don't want to admit it, the percentage tennis says to completely avoid Nadal on clay.
Clay has been part of the tour forever, just like ever other surface. Your head to head is the summation of your performance on them all. It is part of the head to head no matter how people want try to hypothesize and cherry pick to make the numbers more favorable. Fed is smart to avoid clay and work that H2H as he is.
Yes, they are. Fed is KEENLY aware of those numbers and his place in history, WITH the questions that might challenge it. He is a stats master as much as a tennis master. Nadal is also aware of it, but his challenge is the GS, YE #1, and a WTF that he has to conquer to make ground.
Exactly.
Zhilady
Professional
What? Sampras played his last in 2002. That’s the equivalent of 2012 for Federer.
I can’t believe such ignorance in this age of the Internet.
Zhilady
Professional
What are Nadal’s peak years (or months) in your opinion?He still wouldn't ( and couldn't ) beat peak Nadal mind you .
zagor
Bionic Poster
You can't focus on H2H, you can't control what the other player does or the draw. Unless they meet on grass (rather doubtful), half of the season will be gone without them facing each other even once. Did Fed seemed to you like he cares that he beat Cilic to win AO or Nadal that he beat that comical runner up Anderson to win USO? No, Fed cried because he won #20 and Nadal was ecstatic that he won a slam off clay.
Last year was very much an anomaly, at this stage of their careers Fedal will meet very sporadically, who knows when if ever will they meet again. Gone are the days when Fed was focused on winning FO and Nadal Wimbledon, Fed is effectively retired on clay and Nadal hasn't gotten past the grasscourt journeymen since 2011. You think his first though on grass is how he'd match-up with Fed?
They may care about H2H but neither will waste their time pondering it, they're focused on piling up as many slams as they can against the current weak field.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Yep, there's an exact 10 age gap between Pete and Fed, very easy to compare.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
I get it. You hate Nadal and blindly want everything to be in Fed's favor, and you're missing the bigger picture, which is what this thread is about.
Anyway, I appreciate them both and don't try to up-play or down-play their accomplishment to bolster stats. Well, except when Ido troll fans on both sides to watch them implode.
There is a ton of juxtapositioning going on with scheduling and play to maximize the times they might play. And it is ALL about those stats. As much as Fed is ahead in titles and such, it is still conceivable Nadal can surpass him in a lot of categories. There is a still an amazing rivalry going on for their places in tennis history. It all matters.
Tennisanity
Legend
LOL, all Nadal fans are such women emotionally.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Sexism.
zagor
Bionic Poster
No, you don't, not in the slightest.
I'll try to simplfy it. Fed doesn't start the 2018 by thinking "I'm gonna improve my H2H with Nadal now" because guess what, he might not even play Nadal this year. No, he schedules around defending his AO title first, then he wanted to get to #1 and now he's preparing for Wimbledon. Nadal wasn't his obstacle at AO and he may very well not be his obstacle at Wimbledon if we go by recent history.
Nothing to do with what I posted. I didn't compare Fed or Nadal's career or their status in the game, historic or otherwise.
Don't care about your preferences. Nor do I buy the veneer of impartiality.
At this stage of their careers it's all about the slams for both of them with everything else being bonus. It's why they both take breaks so they can peak in their best parts of the season.
And no, I'm not saying that H2H doesn't matter historically. I'm saying that neither Fed nor Nadal are focused on it, it's not their main goal for the season or beyond.
D
Deleted member 512391
Guest
That's why we need more movies like this one. By the way, nice avatar, Frank is one of the most ruthless villains of all time.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Rafa has never beaten peak Roger off-clay.No he failed to do that In 08 at MC, Hamburg, RG, W , onto 2009 AO .
Both at a very good level then .
Then in 2013 , Rafas greatest ever season, he feasted on him 4 times also ( even at the WTF, Cinci, and IW ) .
Roger cant live with the best version of Rafa.
Thanks for playing.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
That again is false.
Zeref
Professional
I never said Clay was not the part of tour, never tried to devalue it either.
Just saying Rafa and Fed got to play each other 15 times on Clay ( Rafa's favourite, I have no objection to It )
Hard court ( Fed GOAT here, but Rafa is not totally clueless here either ,Depth of Feild is most here along with the Presence of Slow HC GOAT) I would certainly mention that Nadal and Federer got to meet on HC consistently after Fed's Decline (2008/9) and that too on mostly Slow HC (Miami,AO)
Then comes Grass (Federer's preffered),Nadal has never been that good on Week1 Grass and never met Federer on it. Week 2 Grass 2-1 in Fed's favour and No Grass Masters mean , no week 1 Grass for Federer to take advantage of.
Again I m not demeaning Clay, just wanted to Say that Federer has not got ample opportunities at his favoured Surface.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Please enlighten me on how many times Federer has faced Nadal on clay since 2013. Thank you.
If Fed had cared about the H2H so much, he would have made sure to avoid Rafa in 2013 when his form was absolute garbage, but instead he showed up and took his beatings like a man. Rafa definitely cares about the H2H since he avoided Roger like crazy in 2015.
pame
Hall of Fame
Somebody may have answered you before this: He may not have suffered the original injury on clay, but he did aggravate it to the point that he had to pull out of RG, (thus breaking his 65 continuous Grand Slam Streak), and this happened after he played 2 clay tournaments
pame
Hall of Fame
and Nice? Nice! Nice? A dinky 250 tournament in exchange for a Masters 1000? lol
nick_crompton
Rookie
From a thread I made before:
Fed Fan here with a genuine statement. I love Fed, and have watched him ever since 2011. I know the GOAT's time on tour is coming to an inevitable end, but I want him to pursue even bigger things. If he took on Nadal on clay now, he might be able to show his brilliance from 2017 in this year's clay season. As the title says, why is Federer skipping the clay season? It is much longer than the grass season, and Fed has more chances of picking up points and titles if he plays.
I was totally offended when Nadal implied that Fed was a chicken for not playing on clay, as many of you fellow Federer fans were. No one messes with the GOAT! But anyways, Federer needs to prove them wrong, and he is human like the rest of us. He is entitled to nothing, even as a GOAT. If he was entitled, then he would be taking advantage of all of us. If he isn't playing on clay, then why is he okay with losing his dignity as a tennis player? It's one thing to be upset when you get called out for being a coward and taking an L. It's another thing to actually prove the critics and your opponents right by skipping out on the clay season and doing what everyone knows you will do. Federer is not invincible, and he isn't the most special or gifted person on the planet or universe; I don't care what you say about the GOAT to save his reputation, and I am sad that he is giving in and throwing away what he could achieve. Even as a Fed fan, I think he can't go on like this and expect to be remembered as the undisputed GOAT. If he is strategically deciding not to play certain tournaments because it could hamper his reputation as #1, then what's stopping him? He clearly is afraid of something. Federer has everything to lose if he keeps this up, and this shows that as flawless as he may be, he is not going to remain as great as he is.
Fed Fan here with a genuine statement. I love Fed, and have watched him ever since 2011. I know the GOAT's time on tour is coming to an inevitable end, but I want him to pursue even bigger things. If he took on Nadal on clay now, he might be able to show his brilliance from 2017 in this year's clay season. As the title says, why is Federer skipping the clay season? It is much longer than the grass season, and Fed has more chances of picking up points and titles if he plays.
I was totally offended when Nadal implied that Fed was a chicken for not playing on clay, as many of you fellow Federer fans were. No one messes with the GOAT! But anyways, Federer needs to prove them wrong, and he is human like the rest of us. He is entitled to nothing, even as a GOAT. If he was entitled, then he would be taking advantage of all of us. If he isn't playing on clay, then why is he okay with losing his dignity as a tennis player? It's one thing to be upset when you get called out for being a coward and taking an L. It's another thing to actually prove the critics and your opponents right by skipping out on the clay season and doing what everyone knows you will do. Federer is not invincible, and he isn't the most special or gifted person on the planet or universe; I don't care what you say about the GOAT to save his reputation, and I am sad that he is giving in and throwing away what he could achieve. Even as a Fed fan, I think he can't go on like this and expect to be remembered as the undisputed GOAT. If he is strategically deciding not to play certain tournaments because it could hamper his reputation as #1, then what's stopping him? He clearly is afraid of something. Federer has everything to lose if he keeps this up, and this shows that as flawless as he may be, he is not going to remain as great as he is.
Fedforever
Hall of Fame
??????
roleaux987
New User
The stupidity of your comment has just hit me. I really think you should need to do a knoweldge quiz before joining this forum. If you fail go to your seprate forum
You do realise sampras was 20-17 win loss when he finally won the USO and he had not won anything in 2 years. And he was not injured.
Fed on the other hand 2013 had two specific incidents where he injured his back while playing in tournaments. Specific injuries. He finished the year no 7 and had an obvious and clear dip during the injury which was wildly uncharacterisic for basically the most consistent player in mens tennis history and then bounced back to be getting to slam finals and beating the no 1 player on several occasions and then obviously got inuree again had surgery then won 3 slams and several masters and got to world no 1 as oldest no 1 ever
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Even Delpo plans to play the FO. Respect to him.
TheFifthSet
Legend
LOOOOL what a response to a post that doesn't contain any hate. You hallucinating or something?
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TheFifthSet
Legend
Federer couldn't have possibly lost to 'mugs at a younger age than Sampras' in 2013, since Sampras quit at an age that was younger than Fed's at the start of 2013. Moreover:
Sampras, 2001 (age 30 year) : 35-16, 8 losses to players outside the top 40, 11 losses to players outside the top 10.
Sampras, 2002 (age 31 year) : 27-17, 9 losses to players outside the top 40, 14 losses to players outside the top 10.
Federer, 2011 (age 30 year) : 64-12, 0 losses to players outside the top 40...only 3 to players outside the top 10.
Federer, 2012 (age 31 year) : 73-12, 1 loss to players outside the top 40...only 3 to players outside of the top 10.
Federer, 2013 (age 32 year) : 45-17, 4 losses to players outside the top 40, 7 losses to players ranked outside the top 10.
Federer of '11-'12 absolutely smashes '01-'02 Sampras, and they're almost exactly 10 years apart. 2013 Fed, who was older than Pete when he retired, lost fewer matches to unsung players than Sampras did in 01/02.
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Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Plans to
duaneeo
Legend
I agree. The H2H was 13-7 at the end of Federer's prime (2009), and had become 23-10 by the end of 2014. Rosewell/Laver, Sampras/Agassi, Borg/McEnroe, Becker/Lendl...no other great tennis rivalry ended as lopsided as Federer/Nadal was heading. I think Roger was once resigned to the fact that the H2H would end with Nadal greatly ahead, and would forever be a historical stain on his resume. But with the current roll against Nadal he's found himself in, Federer is now strategizing to make this great rivalry end with even more closer, competitive numbers.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Becker-Edberg ended at 25-10.
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
Rafa has never beaten peak Roger off-clay.
Thanks for playing.
Roger was just fine in 2008 W, 2009 AO, and the 2012 AO actually. Just because he isn't winning every match like against tomato cans in 2004, doesn't mean he isn't still at the peak of his powers.
Nadal had ****ty results in many years of his peak. It happens to everyone when the competition is so high. Fed fans need to accept he was still the top player well after 07.
He just couldn't get the better of Nadal in big matches most of the time.
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
So Federer had injuries in 2013, but Sampras mustve been in perfect health at 31 after all his matches?
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Because Nadal the opportunist took advantage of Roger in his worst form ever, that's how it even got to 23-10
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But Roger wasn't peak in those years. I can easily cherry-pick stats just like you did.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
I cant believe how many morons can't understand that the man is playing at an age where most players are retired (from singles play) and doesn't want to risk injury on a surface that will grind his knees to powder
A lot of yall need common sense and a life with all this h2h soap opera nonsense.
A lot of yall need common sense and a life with all this h2h soap opera nonsense.
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
Why wasn't he at his best?
If you want to say that he was so much worse of a player in 2009 than he was in 2007 ?
That's ridiculous. No one declines that much in 2 years when theyre in their 20s.
Look at football players like Messi and Ronaldo.
These guys are still breaking records into their 30s. Talent doesn't just disappear.
Federers results deteriorated simply because Nadal came along.
Take out Nadal from tennis history and Fed has the FO slam record along with everything else.
I don't get why people cant admit this obvious fact.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
roleaux987
New User
So Federer had injuries in 2013, but Sampras mustve been in perfect health at 31 after all his matches?
Fed had two specific injuries in two tournaments. Sampras poor form was not to do with injury and he never said so. Fed 2013 was actually better than sampras anyway. Fed hasnt particularly sucked at any point since 2004. 2013 is as worse as it gets. One of the reasons he is goat. Basically excellent tennis
2004,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12,14,15,16,17, probably 18
Now try that with nadal lol
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
No, listen. This is what im trying to say about Federer. People keep making out on this forum, that Federer only had 3 peak years ( 04-07 ).
I find that laughable. The guy was a major force throughout his whole career.
He only started getting lesser results once Nadal came along, then Djokovic.
roleaux987
New User
Fed playing gpod tennis for so long is one of many reasons why he is far superior to nadal and why he is mentioned with messi, bolt etc and nadal isnt even in that conversation as nadal is too physically and athletically weak and tempremental.
Fed is better than nadal obviously as he wins more but also as he is able to play good tennis for his career unlike nadal who cant do 4 months in a row.
So fed has excellent
2004, 05,06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, prob 18
Nadal has 3 months here and there
roleaux987
New User
Yeah exactly him playing good tennis basically since 2004 is exactly why not only is he better than nadal but nadal isnt even in the same planet as fed.
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
No one is comparing Nadal here, calm down.
roleaux987
New User
Youre getting confused with nadal who got pummeled to a pulp by djokovic 7-0 7-0 and even loses in h2h on clay vs djokovic since 2011.
Nadal has only achieved much of what he has as he caught a baby djokovic and then 2011 djok declined
Its no coincidence that nadals RARE good seasons (well you cant even call them season as he couldnt last the year) are 2010, 2013 and 2017 are all some of weakest eras of all time and without a good djokovic
You are also mistakingly thinking federer or djokovic is needed to atop nadal. Fognini, pouille, mueller, davedenko, verdasco will all do just fine to stop nadal winning slams
kevaninho
Hall of Fame
I cant take you serious here. Are you telling me Nadal didn't have a good season in 2008 ( multiple slams, Masters and Olympic gold ) ? How about 2011 where he reached 3 slam finals ? You've really got no clue. Having a 'good' season isn't all about winning 3 slams every year.
Nadal has 9 seasons where he reached 2 or more slam finals each year. That to me isn't just 3 good seasons, as you claim.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Some of us aren’t in denial. But continue with the ‘rest the body’ front. Hell, even Fed said Nadal is unbeatable on clay and was glad he was out last year. Same with this year, I am quite sure.
Another Fed fanatic that is dying inside because he is behind Nadal in H2H. Now please, please go to the cherry pick argue of removing clay, or do that whole ‘clay is inferior’ speech thing y’all do. It cracks me up every time - like clock work.
Probably posting from the court between sets.
