No, it's not just about slam count differences. Again, you miss the point. It's the fact that Hewitt and Safin trail Murray, by a smaller slam difference then Murray trails Becker/Edberg. All I'm saying is you gotta be consistent. If Murray is an ATG, then so are Hewitt/Safin. If you draw the magic line for ATG right after Murray, that shows real bias, not good.
Federer losses in slams at prime vs Djokovic losses in slams at prime - against non ATGs
- Thread starter abmk
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No, it's not just about slam count differences. Again, you miss the point. It's the fact that Hewitt and Safin trail Murray, by a smaller slam difference then Murray trails Becker/Edberg. All I'm saying is you gotta be consistent. If Murray is an ATG, then so are Hewitt/Safin. If you draw the magic line for ATG right after Murray, that shows real bias, not good.
abmk
Bionic Poster
6august
Hall of Fame
I know the original post is not that serious )) The quote is a warning for those who are preparing for a vengeance.
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Deleted member 744633
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I cautioned some of the Federer fans on several occasions not to beat the 'weak era' drum over and over. Now they're getting a taste of their own medicine. What goes around come around.
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RS
Bionic Poster
Nah. Beating Murray was no tougher than beating Hewitt and Roddick in slams.Perfectly stated
RS
Bionic Poster
Murray is a great player indeed. IMO Hewitt was much better at his best and Roddick and Safin though. Not many have sons what he has been ATG standard is very high.
Never seen Murray play like Hewitt in the USO 01 final of Safin in AO 05 or Roddick in Wim 04 for example.
RS
Bionic Poster
@Sunny Ali
Was trying to get a reaction but you are too relaxed. Murray is one my favourites but ATG is subjective i think it is 5-6 slams and up generally.
Was trying to get a reaction but you are too relaxed
. Murray is one my favourites but ATG is subjective i think it is 5-6 slams and up generally.
The_Order
G.O.A.T.
Hahahaha
but no mention of how tired and hurt Agassi was in US05 final...
or Safin in AO04 final...
or Delpo in RG09 sf...
or Nadal in AO17 final...
Typical bs from this clown.
Difference is, even if Youzhny and Gasquet were fully charged it would have made no difference... just whining for no reason...
Had Fed's opponents been fully charged in their respective matches they had a chance of winning.
RS
Bionic Poster
Nadal was robbed in AO 17 and Wim 18. Indoors grass and day less rest after a 5 hour epic and he still nearly did it both times.
D
Deleted member 744633
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No, @tennis_pro & @tennis_addict
Both are great posters though
Whatever happened to @tennis_addict? He was very active but haven't seen him around here for long
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Deleted member 744633
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@Sunny Ali
Was trying to get a reaction but you are too relaxed
LOL, well machan I recently got caught up in a useless argument with a Sampras fan. When I went back later and read the whole exchange, I swore I was never gonna do that again
Fully agreed about ATG being subjective. That's exactly what @Mainad was saying.
Apart from Nadal, Murray is more accomplished than any player Federer faced during his prime. Same for Wawrinka. Djokovic's only "bad" slam losses during that time frame were Querrey and Nishikori.
Making this strictly about ATG vs non-ATG and nothing in between grossly excludes proper context. But given the convenient disclaimer about Kuerten, I'm not surprised.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
Djokovic only had 6 slams going into his 28 year old season
Fed was 9-11 vs Murray from 2006-2013....then Fed improved his level in 2014 and went 5-0 only losing 1 set (a tiebreak)
aditya123
Hall of Fame
That was epic silly.LOL, well machan I recently got caught up in a useless argument with a Sampras fan. When I went back later and read the whole exchange, I swore I was never gonna do that again
Fully agreed about ATG being subjective. That's exactly what @Mainad was saying.
xFedal
Legend
Novak already has more match wins at the French Open, he will overtake Federer in match wins at US Open too, Wimbledon and Australian open are still toss ups, imagine Nole overtaking Federer for match wins at AO/WIMBY .
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Deleted member 744633
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bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
Screw "prime." If you played, it counts. Don't want results to matter because they're not during your "prime" - then quit at your very peak.
RS
Bionic Poster
Stop looking at names and look at level of play read post 31.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I have absolutely no problem with Hewitt being classed as an ATG and possibly Safin too.
RS
Bionic Poster
Your bar is too low imo.
RS
Bionic Poster
Fair enough.
D
Deleted member 758560
Guest
no, they can't.. but murray absolutely can be, it's not only about slam count (a very deceptive way to use just two categories in the way of thinking: black and white), otherwise kuerten would be an atg too, but he can't be unfortunately, people who claim that if murray in then hewitt or safin should be in as well, just don't feel a thin line between those two things/categories/calibers.. and pretty the same story can be said, for example, about federer and gaudio at roland garros (or johansson and nadal at australian open), without feeling that line they're equal, but it would be absurd of course to claim it lol
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Good! The problem is other posters like Lew have an agenda in classifying Murray as an ATG, they are not genuine about it, they only do so to bolster Djokovic, and don't do it for Hewitt/Safin because that would help Fed. Hence my original response regarding Murray as ATG.
So if you think Hewitt, Safin can be ATGs, then that's fine. Maybe even Roddick! Personally, I would cut it off at Becker/Edberg.
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Deleted member 777746
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You're far too gracious. Hewitt/Safin aren't ATGs, they're just great generational players - AND Hewitt's success was before Fed, as well as half o' Safin's. Hewitt would have been an ATG had conditions not changed tho
Murray isn't an ATG, but he's a clear step above these two. He's somewhere in that murky territory between generational great, and ATG. Not sure if he'll be remembered by the casual fans, but the aficionados will for sure.
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Deleted member 777746
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abmk
Bionic Poster
Djokovic got lucky with a 32+ federer, that's all.
Else past prime fed was a point away from going 3-2 vs peak Djokovic in 11-12 in slams.
of course he owned djokovic in slams at his prime 07-09, 4-1. This without even a single slam match in 3 of fed's best years 04-06.
Oh and I highly doubt you are a Pete fan. Probably just a fed hater, but in case I am wrong,.
Pete was OWNED BIG TIME by clay. and of course by Krajicek, Stich, Safin, Hewitt and heck even lost to pre-prime fed as a 4-time defending champ at Wimbledon.
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abmk
Bionic Poster
# of times murray played worse in slam finals than players considered worse than him = too many too count.
Like I said, in 6 prime years - 2 losses for fed to non-ATGs, 7 for your boy Djoko.
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Deleted member 777746
Guest
Fed was also owned by Berdych, Tsonga, Stahkovsky, clay-wiz Nadal at the tender age of 27 etc. on grass. He's also what, 0-3 in finals against Nole? Yikes.
Btw Fed played his best in 2015. Nole took his soul twice in slams that year.
Also - Hewitt played his best against Pete. And this was after Pete's career changing back-injury where he became an all-out serve and volleyer as opposed to all-courter. Hewitt also was Fed's daddy until conditions slowed down. Safin of course zoned out during his 2000 Open match against Pete like he did in his 2005 Aussie match against Rog, and beat both.
Thanks for playing.
abmk
Bionic Poster
lulz what?
federer berdych = 20-6 (8-2 in slams)
federer tsonga = 12-6 (4-2 in slams)
fed also leads h2h vs nadal outside of clay.
LMAO. fed wasn't even at 11-12 level in 15, let alone prime level, let alone his best.
pete got straight-setted by Safin
Federer had MP in set 4 and lost 7-9 in the 5th. big difference.
fed owns safin h2h 10-2 or sth like that anyways.
Krajicek, Stick, Safin, Hewitt all lead h2h vs pete
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Deleted member 777746
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Berdych beat Fed at Wimbledon. So did Tsonga. So did Stahkovksy. So did clay-wiz Nadal who hadn't won a slam off clay till he beat Fed.
You ignored the rest of the points I raised so you forfeit the game.
Thanks.
abmk
Bionic Poster
talk was about owning, not beating one time at Wimbledon, LMAO.
double LOL @ bringing in stakohvsky. their h2h is 1-1 and he's a better player than bastl who beat pete in wim 02 and is 1-0 vs pete. I brought in h2hs with some # of matches and actually know what I am talking about unlike you pulling tsonga, berdych etc. outta somewhere just to get owned.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Ivanisevic of Wim 95 semi and Wim 98 final basically about the same level as Roddick of Wim 04 final and Wim 09 final.
which is a tad below Nadal of Wim 07/08 and Djoko of Wim 15 finals.
more unpredictable, but less mentally stable.
There was also Ivanisevic of Wim 92 semi, who beat Pete - who couldn't handle his serve that day, but that was before Pete's prime.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
ayayay, peak Ivanisevic definitely > peak Roddick on grass.
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Deleted member 777746
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Stich-Sampras was 5-4 and last match in '95.
Krajick-Sampras was 6-4 and Pete won the last match in 2000. Not exactly "ownage" bud.
Bastl beat Pete in the last year of his career on a vastly different Wimbledon surface than what Pete grew up on.
Fed's a GOAT candidate for sure, but he's been aided by near-homogenous conditions and getting to play pigeons. The ability to upset was also vastly diminished because all the surfaces were slow which helped him dominate and domesticate his pigeons.
Imagine how many slams Pete would have won, and how thoroughly he would have dominated if all the surface played like grass, or just a bit slower/less slick. He'd still have the occasional upset against great players like Kracijek and Stich, sure, but his stats would be virtually identical to Feddy's.
abmk
Bionic Poster
game-wise yes. Mentally? Worse.
RS
Bionic Poster
1998 match was great from Goran until the last set i think the 95 one could come closer. So in theory you just about agree but not strongly.
Never saw the 1992 match.
RS
Bionic Poster
Murray or Roddick or Hewitt and in what order for peak on grass?
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