Federer more mentally tough than given credit?
- Thread starter smoledman
- Start date
smoledman
G.O.A.T.
2010 AO
My bad. Interesting that Andreev was able to push Roger so hard in 2 different slams within an 18 month period.
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
I agree completely.it's stated, but debatable, that Rafa is mentally tougher during a match, but Federer clearly is far and away better at dealing with tough or shock losses and shunting them aside
Nadal has twice taken sabbaticals after losing matches where he was favoured to win (2009 FO, 2012 Wimbledon)
Fanboys will cry injury , but he was dominant heading into both matches and coming off slam wins to boot
Fed has had some devastating soul crushing losses and shrugged them off to win major events within the same year
Lesser players have been forever ruined by close key matches
I don't think Roddick was ever the same after the 2009 Wimbledon
To quote other sports, look at the Seattle Seahawks...so many players on that team still bitter and heartbroken by thr super bowl loss to the Patriots
SLD76
G.O.A.T.
I dunno if it's so much mental strength decline as it is physical
Used to be Nadal would wear out his opponents so ths t by the fifth set they were gassed, physically and mentally, and he rolled over them
Now that he's older, he is more tired as well come the fifth and if a player still shows some belief and keeps attacking , they can overcome
swordtennis
G.O.A.T.
I don't buy fed is weak mentally. Also he just beat nadal in 5. Not sure about how tired he gets in 5 setters. He has his comfort zones. He likes the one two three punch combinations and making opponents feel they have to play perfect on their service games. He also does well in tie breaks do to the above imo.
Talker
Hall of Fame
That year was the greatest display of mental strength I've ever seen.
I had Djokovic as the RG favorite over Nadal, Nadal got lucky IMO.
checkmilu
Semi-Pro
No one can get into top ten in the world without being tough, let alone winning 19 slams. All the top 10 guys are extremely tough, but to win the championship the big 3 may have an edge of being 5% tougher. Fed is super talented but without his toughten head he wouldn't be able to win even 1 slam.
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
A mentally weak player cannot win slams, let alone 19 slams. He cannot handle the consistent pressure of being no.1. Most of all, he would just call it quits when he gets seriously injured at the age of 34.9. He would never come back from any serious injuries and win 2 slams at the age of 35.9. Only a player with extraordinary mental strength and self-belief can do these things.
Sampras was like Borg: Extremely focused and steel-willed to achieve the maximum that his tennis game allowed -- for as long as necessary to build a GOAT-level career. But then he burned out and experienced a complete loss of motivation at an age when he was still physically capable of contending for the biggest titles. Of course, Borg hit the wall at a younger age, but the two career trajectories were very similar. Mental exhaustion set in, and then the players just walked away from the sport.
wangs78
Legend
Fed is so much more talented than the rest of the field that being "mentally tough" doesn't really become a factor against 95% of the tour. Only if he plays poorly and is pushed to a deciding set does mental toughness become a factor. I do think that he suffered from jitters against Nadal and Djokovic over the years, where he was visibly tense and playing more defensively than he normally does. Even then he usually pushed Rafa and Nole into deciding sets.
The most important thing that his 6-month break did was erase those jitters / mental scars. Hence his great success against Nadal this year. A lot of people keep talking about the improved backhand. And while, sure maybe Ljubicic gave him some pointers and maybe he focused a lot on that wing during his time off and maybe the bigger racquet has helped, but the biggest change is his newfound belief in that stroke as a weapon which was not the cause in prior years in the biggest moments/points.
The most important thing that his 6-month break did was erase those jitters / mental scars. Hence his great success against Nadal this year. A lot of people keep talking about the improved backhand. And while, sure maybe Ljubicic gave him some pointers and maybe he focused a lot on that wing during his time off and maybe the bigger racquet has helped, but the biggest change is his newfound belief in that stroke as a weapon which was not the cause in prior years in the biggest moments/points.
wangs78
Legend
Well, I think there is more than just "mental strength" that you are talking about here. Fed has an incredible passion for the sport and he doesn't tire of it. And that passion is fueled in part by his prior success, the adoration of his fans, his success with sponsors as well as his innate talent. He also has shown an eagerness to keep improving and adapting his game. That is something that a lot of great champions don't do. For example, if you're Sampras and have 14 Slams, why would you alter your game when things start going a bit downhill? But Fed has shown much more flexibility in this regard. What most of us think about when we think of the term "mental strength" in the context of tennis is the ability, during a match, to stay focused, calm, relaxed, in the moment. It means "composure" basically. Fed clearly has plenty of this but I do think he has had mental failings in big moments against Rafa and Nole over his career, when his self belief faltered. And to his credit, he seems to have overcome that to a great extent this year, hence all the success against Rafa in 2017.
Smasher08
Legend
Agreed that RG vs "Hoss" was a true nail-biter, and that I/O FH winner turned the match.
The reality is, though, that all the guys with double digit slams came through some matches that they stole.
D
Deleted member 743561
Guest
Neutrality
New User
I think this topic is very interesting.
I think the idea that Federer is "mentally weak" probably stems from his h2h with Nadal and sometimes as my fellow posters have mentioned; the manner of his performances. It could be human psychology but sometimes when you see Federer play and he makes unforced errors, then you think...oh he is playing poorly or choking. I don't know the actual statistics regarding this but it seems as though Djokovic and Nadal seem to fight for every point more than Federer. I don't know if it's because we expect more from Federer (maybe fans expect perfection from Federer because all the media have always talked about this so psychologically -maybe if we expect perfection and he doesn't deliver then we scold him for it?) or because he actually chokes. Maybe somebody can do some analysis regarding this. It would be interesting to find out if he was actually choking badly or do the stats say otherwise?
I think it's unfair to say Federer is mentally weak though because Nadal was beaten by Djokovic quite badly from 2013 onwards- it was 11 losses in 13 encounters. Everybody knows Nadal always fights to the end so maybe it's our perception that Nadal is a fighter and Federer graceful that somehow messes with our minds. However, in Fedal grandslam finals, Federer does seem to choke or nadal was just playing to his backhand and using the right tactic? It is ironic that people say that Federer choked rather than Nadal played well and used the right tactic against Federer. It's likely a mixture of both. As suggested, we need somebody to do some statistical analysis!
I just don't believe any champion such as Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray amongst others are mentally weak. Maybe mentally weaker compared to peak Nadal and Djokovic (perception maybe?) but definitely not mentally weak!
Off-topic though. I think Djokovic will make a comeback! People are writing him off but I can never write off a guy who completed the non-calender grandslam. I also cannot write off Federer or Nadal. As we have seen, champions always find a way to come back. I think there is still plenty left in the tank so I can't wait to see the Us open. Maybe the best man win, whoever that may be! I really hope it will be a Federer Nadal final because those finals are so nostalgic and amazing! And time is running out for the greats so let's enjoy it while it lasts!
I think the idea that Federer is "mentally weak" probably stems from his h2h with Nadal and sometimes as my fellow posters have mentioned; the manner of his performances. It could be human psychology but sometimes when you see Federer play and he makes unforced errors, then you think...oh he is playing poorly or choking. I don't know the actual statistics regarding this but it seems as though Djokovic and Nadal seem to fight for every point more than Federer. I don't know if it's because we expect more from Federer (maybe fans expect perfection from Federer because all the media have always talked about this so psychologically -maybe if we expect perfection and he doesn't deliver then we scold him for it?) or because he actually chokes. Maybe somebody can do some analysis regarding this. It would be interesting to find out if he was actually choking badly or do the stats say otherwise?
I think it's unfair to say Federer is mentally weak though because Nadal was beaten by Djokovic quite badly from 2013 onwards- it was 11 losses in 13 encounters. Everybody knows Nadal always fights to the end so maybe it's our perception that Nadal is a fighter and Federer graceful that somehow messes with our minds. However, in Fedal grandslam finals, Federer does seem to choke or nadal was just playing to his backhand and using the right tactic? It is ironic that people say that Federer choked rather than Nadal played well and used the right tactic against Federer. It's likely a mixture of both. As suggested, we need somebody to do some statistical analysis!
I just don't believe any champion such as Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray amongst others are mentally weak. Maybe mentally weaker compared to peak Nadal and Djokovic (perception maybe?) but definitely not mentally weak!
Off-topic though. I think Djokovic will make a comeback! People are writing him off but I can never write off a guy who completed the non-calender grandslam. I also cannot write off Federer or Nadal. As we have seen, champions always find a way to come back. I think there is still plenty left in the tank so I can't wait to see the Us open. Maybe the best man win, whoever that may be! I really hope it will be a Federer Nadal final because those finals are so nostalgic and amazing! And time is running out for the greats so let's enjoy it while it lasts!
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True, but at age 31, every long-term pro's body is issuing major grievances against him. If you can still reach the occasional slam final at that age, you do what needs to be done to cope: Get shots like Agassi, get surgery like Federer, take a long, rehabilitative break like Fed/Djoker, etc. If you don't make a serious effort at any of those, it's because you've decided that you've had enough. Graf falls into this category as well, I think. Sure, she had had to overcome some injuries in the years prior to her retirement, but when you leave the game after an FO title and a Wimbledon final, it's clear that physically, you have something left in the tank. It was the motivation reservoir that had run dry, as Graf herself admitted. There have been lots of major mental casualties in tennis.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Federer was only ever mentally "weak" when compared to Nadal or Djokovic (later on). But who isn't?
This was a break-thru although Nadal was arguably in questionable state(maybe they both were) and Federer won 1st set.
2017 Federer is very resilient and aggressive under pressure (although he is not facing not much top 4-5 pleyrs in good form).
The pattern in the past was that hw would become conservative and defensive under pressure, like in the deciding sets vs top players such as 5th set.
But in AO, Indian Wells and Miami 2017.
He won all deciding sets under extreme pressure.
(At Miami, i think it was 1st time to win deciding set for Federer since 2005).
wangs78
Legend
Yeah, I think Sampras himself admitted that he was "done" in the sense he had grown weary of looking over his shoulder and felt there was nothing left to achieve (and their wasn't at that time - he had broken the two records that matter most: most Slams and most YE #1s). That is a key difference between Fed and Sampras. When Sampras walked away, he really believed his records would stand the test of time (little did he know). In contrast, Fed's records have been under constant assault from Nadal for years now. There is ZERO doubt in my mind that this is the single greatest motivation for Fed - to protect his Slam record from Nadal. He will never admit this of course, but how can anyone deny or doubt this. When all is said and done, what's at stake is being acclaimed as the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
chjtennis
G.O.A.T.
Motivating yourself every morning to go out and run or exercise is mental strength. These champions who achieve success all have great mental strength. Why do some extremely talented players fail to fulfil the promises? The difference is mental strength. Discipline, self-motivation and self-belief all come from extreme mental strength. Not freezing in key moments of the matches is just a part of mental strength. It's not everything. The very thing you mentioned, Fed had mental block against Rafa but now he has overcome that, shows he's always had that capacity.
Oh, Pete was warned -- he just didn't believe it.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/sampras-visits-a-palmistry-shop-in-2002.591765/Wilander Fan
Hall of Fame
He was always mentally tough..you dont win 19 slams unless you are tough. But I think AO 17 finals gave him some extra belief he did not previously possess. Even though he was down in the fifth, he kept fighting and was getting break points despite Nadal playing at a very high level. Ever since then, Federer has been playing on a different level. He easily beat Nadal twice more including a final on the slowest HC on the tour. Then he ripped through that second week at Wimbledon like it was a 250 event.
Prabhanjan
Professional
Except for the Wimbledon 08 and AO 09, I expected Fed to lose the matches that he lost to Nadal. Come the USO 2010 SF's, I felt that Nole is too good a player to lose 4 straight times to Fed at any slam, and the loss was not a shock. In 2011, Fed surprised with the FO beating of Nole while his loss after leading 2-0 in sets at USO was disappointing. Expected him to lose to Nole at 2012 FO semis, and he lost, and win the 2012 Wimbledon semis, he won. In fact I was expecting more of Nole beatdown on Fed after 2013 and it was far from that. In this stretch, it was Fed who surprised with wins. So, to rate a player as weaker for losing only two slam matches where he was supposed to win, would be too much of exaggeration
merlinpinpin
Hall of Fame
There's also the fact that Federer loves tennis and the Tour more than Sampras (and most other ATG's, actually, maybe even *all* of them bar Tilden) ever did. He keeps playing because he loves it. Otherwise, he would have stopped long ago, imho.
About his mental strength, I remember reading an article by a French sport psychologist back in... 2007, I think (or maybe 2006). The lady explained in consumate detail and with many examples that Fed was the ultimate artist (like Mozart, etc.) and that, like all "geniuses", he couldn't stand when his "supremacy" was contested and didn't have the mental strength to fight for it, day in, day out. Her conclusion was that he wouldn't accept losing to players that he considered "inferior" and that he would do a Borg sooner than later and retire before Nadal and the rest of the pack caught up with him. it was a pretty hot topic on French tennis forums at the time, of course, although it turned out that her analysis was a bit flawed--just a tiny little bit, mind you.
Still going strong ten years later (stronger than everyone else atm, actually), yeah--I sure hope for her sake the psychologist lady hasn't been eating crow all these years...
