Federer, Nadal, Djokovic - All different playing styles. Why is Kyrgios style so brutal for all of them?

Saying Roddick has a clearly better peak FH and overall clearly better mover/as well peak wise isn't based on stats. Its based on observation with eyes open (not with tinted, faboyish or clueless vision like yours)
Seriously get some help !
your observation sucks!

hence you always 'backup' your ridiculous arguments with mostly out of context stats.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
your observation sucks!

hence you always 'backup' your ridiculous arguments with mostly out of context stats.
go ahead and make a thread - whose "peak" movement is better and whose peak FH is better - Kyrgios or Roddick.
Write that Kyrgios' is better.

Watch how many people will laugh at that . :-D:-D:-D

My observation skills are pretty good. The fact that an absolutely sh*tty observer like you calls it as sucking is just another indication in that direction. :)
 
go ahead and make a thread - whose "peak" movement is better and whose peak FH is better - Kyrgios or Roddick.
Write that Kyrgios' is better.

Watch how many people will laugh at that . :-D:-D:-D

My observation skills are pretty good. The fact that an absolutely sh*tty observer like you calls it as sucking is just another indication in that direction. :)
you think the conclusions drawn by the majority on this board would in any way influence my opinion?

LOL, please!

i participate mostly on forums where posters mostly disagree with me because i like debate and revealing ignorance.

now, the fact that you get so little support for many of your posts on a forum where the majority are of your ilk should show you how bad so many of your observations are.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
you think the conclusions drawn by the majority on this board would in any way influence my opinion?

LOL, please!

i participate mostly on forums where posters mostly disagree with me because i like debate and revealing ignorance.

now, the fact that you get so little support for many of your posts on a forum where the majority are of your ilk should show you how bad so many of your observations are.
this isn't just about differing opinons...
its a matter of observations - whose "peak" movement is better and whose peak FH is better - Kyrgios or Roddick.

people won't just "opine" that Roddick's is better. They will laugh at you big time for suggesting Kyrgios' is better.

The last statement is hilarious - you have a serious disconnect with reality.
Quite a few people agree with my posts/like them.
 

Zetty

Professional
I like Kyrgios but he's been dominated by Murray. Then, the last couple Federer matches have lost their drama. Next, we all know Nadal goes through periods of "injury" before coming back and dominating another player we thought he had trouble with (His Beijing and his Madrid match with Kyrgios). And finally, the Djokovic that Kyrgios beat is not the REAL Djokovic. He lost to Tomas Berdych at Wimbledon for god's sake.
 
this isn't just about differing opinons...
its a matter of observations - whose "peak" movement is better and whose peak FH is better - Kyrgios or Roddick.

people won't just "opine" that Roddick's is better. They will laugh at you big time for suggesting Kyrgios' is better.

The last statement is hilarious - you have a serious disconnect with reality.
Quite a few people agree with my posts/like them.
not enough do on a forum with so many fellow/like minded posters to yourself.

and its because your macro perspective is lacking because you focus too much on minutia and stats.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
not enough do on a forum with so many fellow/like minded posters to yourself.
oh please, 125downthemiddle is a Djokovic fan and we disagree quite a bit. Even he ridiculed your Kyrgios is a better peak mover than Roddick part.

and its because your macro perspective is lacking because you focus too much on minutia and stats.
I focus on both qualitative and quantitative aspects - I look at it overall and break it down as/when needed. Something you can't get because your perspective+abilities are considerably more limited than mine. :)
 
oh please, 125downthemiddle is a Djokovic fan and we disagree quite a bit. Even he ridiculed your Kyrgios is a better peak mover than Roddick part.



I focus on both qualitative and quantitative aspects - I look at it overall and break it down as/when needed. Something you can't get because your perspective+abilities are considerably more limited than mine. :)
Federer and Djokovic fans have far more in common with each other than with Nadal fans, mainly your antipathy for Nadal. Federer fans are generally more insecure than Djokovic fans and your butthurtness about me saying NK has better RH skills than Federer, which started this debate you're having with me now, is an example of such.

and 125down... can have whatever opinion he wants, the fact that he apparently thought i was trolling you shows his judgement is lacking at least when it comes to evaluating my posts.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Federer and Djokovic fans have far more in common with each other than with Nadal fans, mainly your antipathy for Nadal. Federer fans are generally more insecure than Djokovic fans and your butthurtness about me saying NK has better RH skills than Federer, which started this debate you're having with me now, is an example of such.
125 likes Nadal more than Fed.
So do quite a few Djoko fans.

and your generalization in bold is just as sh*tty as your observations.

I already exposed your laughable non-sense big time and already said the replied to that was because I found it hilariously delusional. Even Nadal/Djokovic are considerably better at RH skills than Nick, not just Fed.
If you had said NK had better RH skills than them, I'd laughed at that as well.

So do quite a few other players

I elaborated in detail as well how your severely over-rated Kyrgios' RH skills. But you were too busy with your head up bullsh*t land to notice. :)

and 125down... can have whatever opinion he wants, the fact that he apparently thought i was trolling you shows his judgement is lacking at least when it comes to evaluating my posts.
the fact that he thought you were trolling just goes to show how ridiculous your statements were :)
my point wasn't about evaluating your post. it was about observation - whose peak movement is better - Kyrgios or Roddick.
 
125 likes Nadal more than Fed.
So do quite a few Djoko fans.

and your generalization in bold is just as sh*tty as your observations.

I already exposed your laughable non-sense big time and already said the replied to that was because I found it hilariously delusional. Even Nadal/Djokovic are considerably better at RH skills than Nick, not just Fed.
If you had said NK had better RH skills than them, I'd laughed at that as well.

So do quite a few other players

I elaborated in detail as well how your severely over-rated Kyrgios' RH skills. But you were too busy with your head up bullsh*t land to notice. :)



the fact that he thought you were trolling just goes to show how ridiculous your statements were :)
my point wasn't about evaluating your post. it was about observation - whose peak movement is better - Kyrgios or Roddick.
again, you don't know what you're talking about.

125down commented about post on my trolling you in his eyes before Roddick got into our discussion.

you continue to suck at judgement.
 
I have this theory, hear me out. It's the speed of his strokes. Call it expansion/contraction, or coiling/uncoiling, or gather & rise...he does it faster than anyone else.

This does what Nadal and Djoker do to everyone else--TAKES TIME AWAY FROM THE OPPONENT. Kyrgios' advantage vs Nadalovic starts before the ball even comes off his racquet. It's in how little prep and time his strokes require.

His serve is almost Roddick-esque, but IMO is an even faster, more brutal, more singular motion. Nearly every other big guy or power hitter (Zed, Raonic, Cilic, Wawa, etc) has a heavy, pendulum-like motion to the serve, whereas with Nick...as soon as the ball leaves his hand, he is hurling his entire body into it. I wouldn't be surprised to see #s back up that he is one of the fastest, if not the fastest, from the toss to the racquet contact.

Then, if the serve comes back and the ball is in play...his short, compact strokes are a huge asset. He can blast huge FHs from anywhere on the court, he may have the best drop shot on the tour, and his BH is just a quick swat that can redirect the ball in a hurry. He hits the ball on the rise and doesn't have a huge windup for any of his shots.

The mix of thunderclaps, dinks, droppers, junkballs, and crosscourt slaps is maddening for Nadal and Djokovic, who thrive on establishing rhythm and grinding down their opponent.

When your opponent can dance around the court and put the ball on a yo-yo, your usual strategies go out the window. And then their lack of creativity starts to hurt them, as Kyrgios simply has a better feel for the ball and can mix it up at will.

I think we can all agree that Fed is the most 'creative' player of the Big 3, and he has the best record vs NK at 3-1. Then comes Nadal, who is 3-3 but only 1-3 off clay. Then there is Djokovic, who is absolutely the most mechanical and least creative of the Big 3, and hasn't even figured out how to take one set off of Kyrgios yet.

Interestingly enough, Murray is 5-1 against Nick. And he is probably the only guy with better hands (lobs and droppers and net play) than NK. So this is a bit of a matchup issue, really with Nadal and Djokovic more than Fed.
@SystemicAnomaly read this!
 
Did not read all the posts but is actually due to following reasons:
1) he has an ATG Serve which makes it hard for everyone to break him so he can get to tie breaks and the score will most likely always be close at least. Such players are difficult for everyone, none of the big three likes playing karlovic either.
2) Differebnt to most other young players he is not afraid of them and does not choke when he gets into winning positions. He also is motivated whenever he plays them and brings his A game.
3) his “success” against them is sometimes blown out of proportion. His wins against Djokovic came when Novak was riding the hippie train and lost against a lot of mugs. His only ein against Federer came on Rogers worst surface clay and during a time when Federer was already a non factor on it. He played him very close a couple of other times but this is mainly due to 1) and the fact that Federer is also past his prime. Against Rafa he has a couple of wins on HC which is also not necessarily soo impressive at this stage of Rafa’s career. His win at Wimbledon was great as he was only 19, but then again we all know Rafa’s Story with grass after 2011.

Don’t get me wrong, I love watching Kyrgios play as well as his attitude. He brings fresh air and speaks his mind but as for his record against the big three, it is not that he has ever beaten a prime version of any of them (like for example Safin or Nalbandian did).
 
He is a shot maker. And you have answered your question for the most part. His attitude, just like Gulbis, makes him difficult. He steps on court hating his opponents, channels his inner anger into his shots and game. He truly believes he is better than them all.

The first factor in any sport is belief. How can a relatively tiny player like Goffin come up so high in ratings? Does he have serve? Belief and hard work is what he has.

What has made Federer, Nadal and Djok so great is hard work, discipline and talent. Kyrgios lacks the first two.

Djokovic, at height of his game, was still trying to get even better by hiring new coaches. In contrast, Kyrgios doesnt believe he needs one. With his way of thinking he can give hard times to top 5 players or whoever is on the other side. But he will never win a Major.
 
He's 23. He could still end up as the heir to the throne.
Who knows. I dont see it. Not consistently disciplined enough and his game is too full of flash and not stable enough. All the top guys and girls have stable games. Djokovic, Nadal, Halep, Serena. Even Federer whose game has a lot of creativity and feel still plays within percentages and has a reliable enough game all around.

I dont know if there will be a true heir to the throne. I see a bunch of guys sharing the pie for awhile when the Big 3 retire.
 
I didn't say Kyrgios didn't serve well.

I said DJokovic had a terrible returning day regardless of how Kyrgios served. Djokovic played over 1000 matches and his ace against% was 10% higher than his 2nd worst match. That requiers a great serving day, and a **** returning day.
I actually have to agree with this. You need two extremes for Djokovic to be aced 34% for the 1st time in his career. Kyrgios is a great server but probably not the best server Djokovic has faced and even they couldn't do that to him. Djokovic was aced 25 times or more only 5 times in his career over 1000 matches:

Feb‑2017 - Acapulco - (6)Nick Kyrgios [AUS] d. (1)Djokovic - 7-6(9) 7-5 - 25 aces
Jun‑2016 - Wimbledon - (28)Sam Querrey [USA] d. (1)Djokovic - 7-6(6) 6-1 3-6 7-6(5) - 31 aces
Jun‑2015 - Wimbledon - (1)Djokovic d. (14)Kevin Anderson [RSA] - 6-7(6) 6-7(6) 6-1 6-4 7-5 - 40 aces
Jun‑2014 - Wimbledon - (1)Djokovic d. (4)Roger Federer [SUI] - 6-7(7) 6-4 7-6(4) 5-7 6-4 - 29 aces
Jun‑2006 - Wimbledon - (7)Mario Ancic [CRO] d. Djokovic - 6-4 4-6 4-6 7-5 6-3 - 31 aces

One of these doesn't fit. Can you spot which one?
 

Rosstour

Professional
Who knows. I dont see it. Not consistently disciplined enough and his game is too full of flash and not stable enough. All the top guys and girls have stable games. Djokovic, Nadal, Halep, Serena. Even Federer whose game has a lot of creativity and feel still plays within percentages and has a reliable enough game all around.

I dont know if there will be a true heir to the throne. I see a bunch of guys sharing the pie for awhile when the Big 3 retire.
All true and we definitely saw "Bad Nick" today vs PEDSchreiber.

Federer had many of the same issues Nick does. Lots of feel, skates by on talent, lacks the insane drive for fitness and repetition, bad temper, easily frustrated. He got it together eventually. I think the model is there. Will Nick follow it, is the question.
 

vex

Hall of Fame
Its not super complicated. He's troublesome for the same reason that any servebot is: When he is on FIRE its much harder to break his serve than a normal player's serve. NOTE: This only really matters in the rare weeks when his serve is completely dialed in. When his serve isn't lights out, he's total garbage. You don't even realize he was in the draw.

But that once/twice a year week where he's dialed in ... couple that with him going for broke on his FH and he'll occasionally upset literally anyone.

But in the long run, he's pretty harmless b/c he can't maintain his level. He's very one dimensional.
Bumping cause I called my own shot lol
 

Fiero425

Hall of Fame
All true and we definitely saw "Bad Nick" today vs PEDSchreiber.

Federer had many of the same issues Nick does. Lots of feel, skates by on talent, lacks the insane drive for fitness and repetition, bad temper, easily frustrated. He got it together eventually. I think the model is there. Will Nick follow it, is the question.
Kyrgios would have been dangerous against Nole if he can manage to get past Bjorn F.! Down a break in the 1st set so far! A lot of other upsets to help Djokovic; Coric, S Tsitsipas, & M Cecchinato! Bout time he got a break in this draw with what Nadal has to play against before today! :unsure: :cautious: :rolleyes: ;)
 
again, you don't know what you're talking about.

125down commented about post on my trolling you in his eyes before Roddick got into our discussion.

you continue to suck at judgement.
I agree with abmk too.

If Kyrgios were so much better than Roddick at everything, his results would have reflected that to a certain extent, even if he was coasting on talent alone.
 
Fed's ace% against was around 39% when he faced Ivo in Basel of 2014, almost 10% more than the 2nd highest. An anomaly, it happens. There was hardly anything Fed could do that day against that sort of serving (even though he won), IMO, it was similar to Acapulco regarding serving prowess.
Yes but I think @Red Rick is pretty spot on here. You need a great server and for someone to be below par in returning for an anomaly like that to happen. Federer was aced a whopping 17.5% in Basel 2014. When we completely remove Karlovic from the equation, he still got aced 10.5% which is the highest at any time when Federer made any Basel final in his career. It's even higher than in the Basel tournaments where Federer lost in the final. His overall return points won was lowest that year as well out of his 9 titles. This is enough to suggest that Federer returned his worst at Basel in 2014. Couple that with someone having a GOAT serving day, and then someone can ace you 34% and 38%.
 
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Yes but I think @Red Rick is pretty spot on here. You need a great server and for someone to be below par in returning for an anomaly like that to happen. Federer was aced a whopping 17.5% in Basel 2014. When we completely remove Karlovic from the equation, he still got aced 10.5% which is the highest at any time when Federer made any Basel final in his career. It's even higher than in the Basel tournaments where Federer lost in the final. His overall return points won was lowest that year as well. This is enough to suggest that Federer returned his worst at Basel in 2014. Couple that with someone having a GOAT serving day, and then someone can ace you 34% and 38%.
Well, I already posted saying something along the lines of Novak wasn't picking up where Nick was serving (down the Tee especially, 18 aces down the Tee) which was certainly the case in the Fed Basel match. It's not often that you see Federer completely guess and choose a side before the service motion is done.

Those Basel stats are interesting though, never knew about that. Muller and Dimitrov ace rate are passable, and to a certain extent, maybe Istomin, but the Goffin final ace% against is pretty befuddling.
 
Well, I already posted saying something along the lines of Novak wasn't picking up where Nick was serving (down the Tee especially) which was certainly the case in the Fed Basel match. It's not often that you see Federer completely guess and choose a side before the service motion is done.

Those Basel stats are interesting though, never knew about that. Muller and Dimitrov ace rate are passable, and to a certain extent, maybe Istomin, but the Goffin final ace% against is pretty befuddling.
Yea both just couldn't read their serves at all for whatever reason. I remember Nick killing Djokovic with the down the T serve.

Yea the Goffin one is the one that really sticks out among those since it's the 2nd highest and I don't think he is one of the biggest servers.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
again, you don't know what you're talking about.

125down commented about post on my trolling you in his eyes before Roddick got into our discussion.

you continue to suck at judgement.
Again, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. :)

I have pointed out to some people who haven't watched much tennis that they haven't done so.
So 125DTM thought that you were trolling me by saying I suck at observing.
 
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Red Rick

Talk Tennis Guru
All true and we definitely saw "Bad Nick" today vs PEDSchreiber.

Federer had many of the same issues Nick does. Lots of feel, skates by on talent, lacks the insane drive for fitness and repetition, bad temper, easily frustrated. He got it together eventually. I think the model is there. Will Nick follow it, is the question.
Federer and Kyrgios aren't on the same planet in terms of talent.
 

3lite

Professional
Chaos. Nick has no plan and is a true wild man. Everything from sublime touch to 180+kph fearhands. Kyrgios is like a box of chocolates... He even can vary his spinrates up and down off both wings. Every match is on his racquet.

He should be able to do the most damage against Djoko IMHO. Whether he can win though, well, that's up to Nick.
You could say this very same thing about any player that plays Novak Djokovic. It's never up to Djokovic to decide games in any of his matches.
 
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