Federer one handed backhand short ball put away analysis

S

sportsfan1

Legend
I have seen during matches that Federer will run in from the baseline and put away a short ball with the *one handed backhand* topspin cross court shot. The ball is not necessarily very high, can be medium height around waist as well.
The racquet moves very quickly and the ball travels very fast as well and dives/bounces in the middle of the court past the opponent at the net . I am interested in the mechanics of this 1HBH short ball put away:

1) grip, how hard/soft its hit
2) How hitting this from the middle of the court is different from the 1HBH topspin cross court from baseline (going by the speed of the ball, it seems to be hit equally hard but with more topspin perhaps?)
3) Any videos offering replays, slow motion or analysis of this. I couldn't find any.

Thanks a lot.
 
S

SStrikerR

Hall of Fame
Grip is a standard backhand grip. Eastern I believe, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, it's hit with more spin. If you want to do this as well, you're going to need to bend your knees and get under the ball, and get good racquethead speed for the topspin. I'm trying to find a video for you, there has to be one out there.
 
N

Netspirit

Hall of Fame
It is like a serve return - short backswing, little follow-through. The ball does not need to be hit super-hard since the distance is much shorter.

No need to spin it hard either unless the ball is below or around the net cord level. In general as you move closer to the net, you hit with less and less topspin up to slight underspin (standard volleys).
 
C

charliefedererer

Legend
Topsin is the result of "hitting from low to high."

That means really dropping the head of the racquet very low
before starting the forward swing.

federer_backhand_01_0407.gif


Look how low the head of the racquet is in photo 6 above- down at the knees.

Yet, a fraction of a second later in photo 7, the head of the racquet is already up to the level of the chest high ball.

And just a fraction of a second later, the rapid low to high racquet movement continues on the follow through above Fed's head in photo 8.

That is hitting low to high.


Accentuate the low to high even more for more spin.

(Hit somewhat less low to high to drive the ball more.)
 
vincent_tennis

vincent_tennis

Professional
Netspirit said:
It is like a serve return - short backswing, little follow-through. The ball does not need to be hit super-hard since the distance is much shorter.

No need to spin it hard either unless the ball is below or around the net cord level. In general as you move closer to the net, you hit with less and less topspin up to slight underspin (standard volleys).
Click to expand...

What? =A=
Have you SEEN ANY of Federer's "put away" backhands?...
 
S

sportsfan1

Legend
All, thanks for the great responses. I can hit the short ball put away if I hit the stroke in a very deliberate and measured way, without much speed. But when I try to hit it harder, it goes long (would have been a very good topspin drive from the baseline though), which leads me to think that its the heavy topspin part that I am missing.

If you swing very fast low to high, the ball is going to travel further, right, and thats how you hit from the baseline, so there has to be some difference (grip, mechanics) gives the stroke more topspin and causes it to dive bomb around the service line when hit hard from closer to the net?

Yeah, a video would be great, its a great shot, so dunno why the video is hard to find.
 
C

charliefedererer

Legend
sportsfan1 said:
All, thanks for the great responses. I can hit the short ball put away if I hit the stroke in a very deliberate and measured way, without much speed. But when I try to hit it harder, it goes long (would have been a very good topspin drive from the baseline though), which leads me to think that its the heavy topspin part that I am missing.

If you swing very fast low to high, the ball is going to travel further, right, and thats how you hit from the baseline, so there has to be some difference (grip, mechanics) gives the stroke more topspin and causes it to dive bomb around the service line when hit hard from closer to the net?

Yeah, a video would be great, its a great shot, so dunno why the video is hard to find.
Click to expand...

The key is in photo 6 of the backhand sequence I posted above.

To hit with more topspin you have to drop your racquet head even lower while it is still behind you.

The problem is because your hand/racquet is behind you, you can't see it.

But you can feel that is lower than usual.

[If you are still in need of a visual cue, when you drop your racquet really low behind you, if you look at your elbow it is pointing nearly straight up (not out and up like usual.)]

Bringing the racquet head up rapidly from that very low racquet head drop will give you the big topsin you are looking for.

I hope this helps.
 
L

larry10s

Hall of Fame
sportsfan1 said:
All, thanks for the great responses. I can hit the short ball put away if I hit the stroke in a very deliberate and measured way, without much speed. But when I try to hit it harder, it goes long (would have been a very good topspin drive from the baseline though), which leads me to think that its the heavy topspin part that I am missing.

If you swing very fast low to high, the ball is going to travel further, right, and thats how you hit from the baseline, so there has to be some difference (grip, mechanics) gives the stroke more topspin and causes it to dive bomb around the service line when hit hard from closer to the net?

Yeah, a video would be great, its a great shot, so dunno why the video is hard to find.
Click to expand...

NO
you have a mistaken concept
imho
swing speed has nothing to do with distance:shock:

have you heard it said you have to swing faster/harder for a good second kick serve than a flat serve???


the difference is how much you come UP the ball for topspin vs how much you hit THRU the ball for drive

even tho you you are low to high for both shots

look at the first link of fed vs blake and watch how FAST feds racket head speed is

but he BRUSHES the ball to get the spin so that it dips

he is not using gravity to bring the ball down by hitting it softer/slower
 
S

sportsfan1

Legend
There is excellent knowledge on these forums, thanks for all the info. It seems from the videos that the swing path on the short ball 1HBH put away goes across the body and ends up more on the shoulder(kind of like a swat), whereas the baseline top spin 1HBH finishes high above the head.
Regardless thanks for the info again, and correcting some misconceptions.
 
P

pondus

Rookie
With a one handed backhand, you should be able to create a lot of topspin even if the ball only bounces up to your knees, I'm not sure how it works, but I see people do it all the time, even though there clearly is not a lot of low to high, but more of a stabbing action
 
C

corners

Legend
sportsfan1 said:
I have seen during matches that Federer will run in from the baseline and put away a short ball with the *one handed backhand* topspin cross court shot. The ball is not necessarily very high, can be medium height around waist as well.
The racquet moves very quickly and the ball travels very fast as well and dives/bounces in the middle of the court past the opponent at the net . I am interested in the mechanics of this 1HBH short ball put away:

1) grip, how hard/soft its hit
2) How hitting this from the middle of the court is different from the 1HBH topspin cross court from baseline (going by the speed of the ball, it seems to be hit equally hard but with more topspin perhaps?)
3) Any videos offering replays, slow motion or analysis of this. I couldn't find any.

Thanks a lot.
Click to expand...

The illustrious Talk Tennis poster "tricky" explained how this is done in a post from a couple years ago:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/show...light=federer+produce+heavy+shots#post1765275

Look at the EDIT at the bottom of post 27 in that thread, and then there is some elaboration in the next couple of posts.
 
S

sportsfan1

Legend
Thanks for linking that thread. In Post 27, when poster "tricky" says "As he is setting up his unit turn, he'll flip his racquet upside down, but still on edge.", Does it mean the racquet head is pointing down to the ground, but with the edge perpendicular, just before he starts the forward swing, as shown in pic 6 of post#4 from charliefederer? If not, any pics or references to time in a video of the BH would help greatly in visualizing this?

corners said:
The illustrious Talk Tennis poster "tricky" explained how this is done in a post from a couple years ago:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/show...light=federer+produce+heavy+shots#post1765275

Look at the EDIT at the bottom of post 27 in that thread, and then there is some elaboration in the next couple of posts.
Click to expand...


tricky said:
There's some nuances that are worth mentioning after you get the correct unit turn down and leg transfer down. But the unit turn and leg transfer are BY FAR the key to all.

1) When practicing the swing, try holding the racquet with just your index, 4th and 5th fingers. This will help you mantain a stable wrist as well as keep the thumb-wrist 'wrinkle" Gilead brings up.

2) Eventually with the classic 1H, you want to swing with the elbow rather than the hand. This will help take away attention from the wrist, tighten up the swing and improve racquet speed. Also, you'll get more natural (but very controllable) wiper movement, which improves topspin. To a 3rd person observer, the shot may seem more wristy.

3) The classical backswing with the 1H is the "smile pattern." Basically, you trace about half of a "U" backwards for your takeback, and then the whole U forwards for the forward swing. There's 4 helpful elements with this.

3a) Remember to start your takeback AFTER the unit turn.

3b) You want to avoid leaning forward during the takeback. It's really tempting to do this with the smile pattern, especially on low balls, but it's bad. You want the hips/lower back to "stand up straight" in the stroke.

3c) Your takeback ends when your dominant shoulder just touches your chin. This lets you know that your shoulder is properly loaded and ready to go.

3d) Tracing the smile pattern -- both backswing and forward swing -- with the elbow is the ideal. This gives you an abbreviated takeback, prevents the hip from opening up excessively (not desirable in a classical 1H BH), helps your forward swing mantain a solid down-to-up slot, and gives you the heavy ball (high racquet speed, good topspin.)

Now if you want to learn the Gasquet BH, well that requires something else entirely.

Edit:

Oh I forgot to mention. There's a neat trick that Federer does to produce heavy shots on both wings, which is also great for stabilizing the wrist. It not only gives you that low, heavy "sinker ball", which is distinctive of Federer's backhand (not even Haas has it), but it makes the stroke a little easier.

As he is setting up his unit turn, he'll flip his racquet upside down, but still on edge. When this is done, the wrist will be really laid back and the racquet tip will be lower. This also makes it easier to time your takeback with the unit turn, because you won't be inclined to take the racquet back before the unit turn has been set up.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
B

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
The key is very loose wrist and a lot of wrist action (supination plus some more wrist). Not much arm swing in horizontal direction. At the point of contact his racquet head movement is mostly brushing up the back of the ball without much pushing forward. This is a very difficult shot for most of the 1HBHer's because most hold the racquet too squarely. With such grip wrist movement is restricted along the arm swing. Try holding the racquet less squarely (more angled) and roll the wrist. To be able to hit this shot you need a very strong and loose wrist and good control being able to brush up with the wrist snap. Lots of practice and getting the feel and gaining control is required.
 
mikeler

mikeler

Moderator
Lots of good comments already. Pay close attention to Federer's grip. I see so many players with 1 handed backhands that with a slight grip change could be hitting heavy topspin rather than knuckle balls.
 
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