federer 's 2006 cincinnati open murray loss - just outplay by murray or tanking ( for 06 uso ) , what do you guys think ?

skypadq

New User
federer 's 2006 cincinnati murray loss was his only prior defeat before final that year
this site , lot a user says this match was tanking
what do you guys think ?
just outplayed by murray or tanking ( for 06 uso ) ?
 

ChrisRF

Hall of Fame
Not tanking on purpose (I don’t think Federer would do that), but lacking the last bit of fitness after a hard tournament in Toronto. Remember back then there were no 1st round Byes at Masters, so he had to play 6 matches in 7 days in Toronto (with always 3-setters in the last 4 days) and then only one free day before the next tournament with again potentially 6 consecutive matches started.

It was a strange match where Federer was broken 7 times but he also broke Murray 5 times and often came back to equal the score. That surely isn’t tanking in a sense of not trying.

By the way, it was Federer’s first straight-sets defeat since 194 matches (last time against Kuerten at RG 2004 which was 27 months before)! For me the most unreal and sensational tennis statistic at all.
 

skypadq

New User
Not tanking on purpose (I don’t think Federer would do that), but lacking the last bit of fitness after a hard tournament in Toronto. Remember back then there were no 1st round Byes at Masters, so he had to play 6 matches in 7 days in Toronto (with always 3-setters in the last 4 days) and then only one free day before the next tournament with again potentially 6 consecutive matches started.

It was a strange match where Federer was broken 7 times but he also broke Murray 5 times and often came back to equal the score. That surely isn’t tanking in a sense of not trying.

By the way, it was Federer’s first straight-sets defeat since 194 matches (last time against Kuerten at RG 2004 which was 27 months before)! For me the most unreal and sensational tennis statistic at all.
wow ... that 's so surpise man ... 194 matchs ...
good to know
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Why would he want to tank to a young scrub like Andy was at that time (and whose game he had criticised up to that point) and so give him the confidence to know he could beat him?

If he was too tired to play he should have just withdrawn. No?
 

Pheasant

Hall of Fame
Federer wasn't in great form in Canada and was in even worse form in Cinci. These things happen.
In Canada, Federer dropped sets to Gasquet, Gonzalez, Malisse, and Tursunov.
In Cinci, Federer was broken twice by Srichaphan, then later broken by Murray an absurd 7 times.

Outside of Cinci and Canada that year, Federer won 62 matches in straight sets out of 89 played. I.e, he won nearly 70% of his matches in straight sets that year outside of those two tourneys. At Cinci and Canada, Federer only won 3 of his 8 matches in straight sets(37.5%).
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Neither guy was playing great, but Fed was worse. Long week in Canada with tons of three set matches and no first round byes, and the USO round the corner. I think he half arsed it tbh, don't think he tanked but he wasn't willing to die on the court to get the win.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Funny how no one talks about the loss to Hrbaty in 2004 though...
Yeah but Hrbaty had beaten Fed before and was well into his prime. Andy was just an up and comer when he became the only other player apart from Nadal to beat Fed that season.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Yeah but Hrbaty had beaten Fed before and was well into his prime. Andy was just an up and comer when he became the only other player apart from Nadal to beat Fed that season.
So? Same type of loss imo. Not really strange given the timing.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Why would he want to tank to a young scrub like Andy was at that time (and whose game he had criticised up to that point) and so give him the confidence to know he could beat him?

If he was too tired to play he should have just withdrawn. No?
But Federer won the USO after Cincinnati. I think he was saving his energy since he just won the Master in Toronto the previous week. Also Murray lost straight set to Roddick at Cinci. in the semifinal, who later met Federer at the USO final and got obliterated.
 
Fred was off after a difficult tournament in Toronto played just the previous week (where he dropped a set in four straight matches, already having a bit of a dip) and made a plethora of errors. A man is allowed a poor match sometimes, even the greatest are human. Not his only underwhelming early round match at the time, but the only one he actually lost.
 

The Green Mile

Bionic Poster
Fed played a sloppy match with terrible execution on finishing shots, struggled to string together good points tbh. Frustrated throughout, remember he belted a ball out of the stdaium at one point. Did look pretty fatigued. Murray played a smart match, quite within himself. Cried at the end of the match and he did comment that he thought Fed did not play his best tennis. Gives himself some credit as well though, which is deserved. Talks about how he returned well and didn't overplay too much.
 

Red Rick

Talk Tennis Guru
Neither guy was playing great, but Fed was worse. Long week in Canada with tons of three set matches and no first round byes, and the USO round the corner. I think he half arsed it tbh, don't think he tanked but he wasn't willing to die on the court to get the win.
Crazy than Nadal is the only Big 4 player to sweep the US HC.
 

Third Serve

Hall of Fame
ATP only counts ATP matches played in the H2H.
The official name is the ATP Challenger Tour. They are ATP matches just like on the regular ATP Tour.

If you want to get into the "value of matches" discussion, I might argue that a Challenger final is a greater match than an ATP 250 first round. Should both be excluded? No. If they have inherent value (i.e. points) then they should count.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Is the Laver Cup an ATP event?

You can be as dogmatic as you like but try telling players on the Challenge Tour their matches don't count.
The official name is the ATP Challenger Tour. They are ATP matches just like on the regular ATP Tour.

If you want to get into the "value of matches" discussion, I might argue that a Challenger final is a greater match than an ATP 250 first round. Should both be excluded? No. If they have inherent value (i.e. points) then they should count.
Hey, don't have a go at me. Take it up with the ATP. They're the ones who decide what's included in the H2H and what is not. I note that they do refer to Challenger matches when citing H2H stats but record them separately.

For instance:

 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Hey, don't have a go at me. Take it up with the ATP. They're the ones who decide what's included in the H2H and what is not. I note that they do refer to Challenger matches when citing H2H stats but record them separately.

For instance:

The ATP can be wrong man lol. Obviously they don't include challenger tour matches but that doesn't mean that they're right not to, they're serious matches...

Quoting what's the ATP website isn't really addressing my point.

Anyway, no point going back and forth on this.
 
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