Federer Serve

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by BorisBeckerFan, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. BorisBeckerFan

    BorisBeckerFan Professional

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    I was watching some of the Fed Sampras Wimbledon match and I was just thinking he served particularly well that match, great placement, good variety.
    I think this was partly out of necessity. In the marathon Wimbledon final against Roddick when racked up that insane amount of aces I kind of think he really needed to have those free points because there where times when Roddick seemed to have Fed on the ropes.

    This lead me think, if Fed had played in the 90s I think his serve would be better just as result of him going for it more. I'm not suggesting it would be as good as Goran's or Sampras's but It would have been better than the serve he's had most of his career.

    I'm not suggesting Fed isn't already great server as it stands now but I think he would have been an even better server if he would have played in the 90's out of sheer necessity and there have been a few matches which have shown he's up to the task. Just like volleying, if he did it more he would be better at it. He wouldn't become Edberg but he would be better than he is now.

    I suspect that as Fed gets older his serve will actually improve even though the rest of his game will be in decline simply because he will be forced to rely on it more. I think whenever Fed's last year on the tour is, it will be interesting to see if he keeps his current playing style or if he will become more aggressive and go for big bombs off the serve and forehand.

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. Paullaconte1

    Paullaconte1 Rookie

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    I agree, very good point. In fact, his serve has already improved a lot during the past few months especially in the placement and variations.

    It was interesting how he used it against a dead tired Djokovic in Cincinnati. Lot's of kick serves to make him even more tired.

    Fed has massively improved from a strategic and tactic point of view.

    The nice old days when he was trashing everybody with a big smile without even thinking are over, this is a New Fed and I personally like also this one!
     
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  3. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Over the last 2 years, he'd added about 5MPH to his 1st and 2nd serves. He had mentioned that it bothered him how well people were returning, so he wanted to add more oomph. (That said, while not an ace machine, Federer is usually in the top 7 in aces any given year, going back to 2004.) To be honest, his serve is his biggest weapon now. His winner vs. UEs isn't spectacular, even now, but he usually wins out to his 2nd serve percentages. The only person who reads Federer well is -- strangely -- Nadal.

    I think what Annacone has done for his service game, is help his mental makeup under pressure situation and cleaned up his approach game. He's done a better job of not rushing, and serving with an intention to come in and attack.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
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  4. henryshli

    henryshli Semi-Pro

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    I agree that he would have worked on his serve more if he played in the 90s when serves were arguable more effective due the the speed and bounce of the surface. But I can't help but think that it would have affected other parts of his game. All hypothetical obviously.

    Slight off topic, have people noticed how different his serving action is now compared to the Sampras match at Wimbledon? Much more knee bend now.
     
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  5. Bobby Jr

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    Factor in also that in the 90s the courts would have often been a lot quicker than they are now so serves were flattered more than they have been for the past 6 or so years.

    Someone who is hitting 10 aces in a match now would hit double that if they were playing in the 90s, especially if you factor in returning is generally better now too.
     
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  6. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Federer's service form changed a little bit around 2003. He started to come higher off the ground. I think he may have tweaked his service grip, and that formwise led to a deeper knee bend. Federer's not only a master at disguise and placement, he also varies sidespin on his serves, so that people rarely hit his serves clean.

    There's also two definite eras with his FH. Up to about 2005, his FH had more of a pronounced loop. He hit with unbelievable pace, but it could be argued that he also played more back. From 2006 onward, his stroke was more compact (whippy?), and he took advantage of more short balls.
     
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  7. BeHappy

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    Sampras was hitting more aces than ever when they slowed the courts down (weirdly). In 2002 he hit over 730 aces in just 42 games. 2002 was the start of the modern "slow courts everywhere" era. Maybe the high bouncing, gritty courts took the spin better?

    Federer by contrast has never hit 700 aces in any year, when you take into account his playing 90 games a season he hits aces less than half as often as Sampras.
     
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  8. BorisBeckerFan

    BorisBeckerFan Professional

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    Yeah obviously Fed is not among the best servers ever or anything, my point simply was that the potential was there for him to be a better server than he was. Who knows with a slightly better serve he may have had another Slam or 2.
     
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  9. BeHappy

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    Federer has a perfectly good, if slightly overrated serve. Where he comes into his own is the return.
     
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  10. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    He probably lost two Finals in 2009 due to his first serve. His percentages tend to be worse on clay, yet much better on grass.
     
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  11. PhrygianDominant

    PhrygianDominant Hall of Fame

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    I was wondering when that changed...

    Does that also entail the rock back motion he was starting with in the sampras match?
     
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  12. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Anomalies can always be found to buck trends.

    Federer for example has hit more than 50% more aces than Becker did in his career despite having a shorter career (to date). But how many "experts" would consider Federer to have a bigger serve than Becker? Few here would risk that claim without some old-timer giving them a scolding.

    Sampras also didn't play in the era when they had truly slowed down courts across the season. He played when they did the initial slowing of grass and a few other places but nothing like the slowing down we've seen at the Aussie Open and many other tournaments since he retired.

    FWIW, ATP records say Sampras hit 607 aces in 2002, not 730 or more. Federer has served more than 607 aces in 5 of the last 11 years (03, 06, 08, 09, 10 and on track to do it again this year).
     
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  13. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Yes . . . I just went back and reviewed the Sampras-Federer match. To be honest, his mechanics then were probably very different. Federer's form then resembled Milos Raonic.

    There's basically two ways to produce power. You can either coil tightly and push upwards. Or, you can drive forward, as if you were pitching off a mound. How you can tell with pro servers is by watching when the hips move into the court. If it's around the point when they form the trophy pose, then you have the former. If it's when they toss the ball, then you have the latter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
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  14. BeHappy

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    Pete Sampras 2002: 607 aces in only 44 matches!

    That's a rate of 13 aces a match. And 2002 was the slow hard court era.

    That proves that a young Sampras playing a full schedule would still be hitting 950-1000+ aces every year just like he used to. Federer hits around half to 2/3's as many aces a year as Sampras did.

    The Becker/Federer thing... The stats only go back to 1990, Becker was serving 800-1000 aces a year 1985-1990, I would imagine that might explain the discrepancy. If not then Becker's semi retirement in his mid to late 20's does.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
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  15. Bobby Jr

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    You lost me at "2020 was the slow hard court era".

    It was not the slow hard court era. We didn't see truly slow hard court conditions as the wider norm until much later. The Aussie Open for example didn't change to be really slow until 2007 or 08.
     
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  16. BeHappy

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    I obviously meant 2002!

    There was no carpet, Wimbledon was slow for the first time etc. Federer never served over 700 in all that time, even allowing for your opinion that 2008 is the year.
     
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  17. Bobby Jr

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    You're missing the point.

    The original post posited the notion that Federer would have served better in the 90s. Regardless of Sampras the fact is the conditions were generally far, far, far more server friendly for the most part (Wimbledon was not slower for the first time either). That cannot be disputed. The courts were faster and the balls were even sometimes harder (at Wimbledon for example).

    At no point late in Sampras' career did he play in anything remotely like the slow conditions that exist nowdays averaged out over the season. Federer would have had more success with his serve in the 90s, end of story - even without taking into consideration the rest of his game.

    Aces per match etc bla bla. Some of the most dominant serving displays ever have had atypically low ace counts. Aces do not count for everything when demonstrating the value of great serving. Wilander's French Open final against Leconte in 1988 is a perfect example of this. Edberg also had one of the most dominant serves of his era yet served stuff-all aces compared to others considered to have big serves.

    To top it off, the original poster ludicrously said Federer "is not among the best servers ever or anything" and you back him up by somewhat saying it is a "slightly overrated serve."

    Overrated? wtf? His serve is better, all things considered, than everyone on tour other aside from barely a small handful of players. Even then, some of those servers who people constantly tout as being better are not when all things are really considered.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2012
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  18. Tournament Player

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    Can`t be bothered to read the thread but Federer serve is highly underrated, it is an absolute weapon, he can hit aces and place the ball anywhere to get him out of trouble.
     
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  19. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    No doubt Fed's serve would be more lethal in the 90s because of the fast courts. The lower bounce doesn't allow player to stay way behind the baseline like today.
     
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  20. Vcore89

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    Very well put.
     
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  21. Vcore89

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    Purely from the perspective of service motion, Becker is the best imo and Federer is right up there!
     
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  22. BeHappy

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    In 2002 Sampras played in the same slow conditions as Federer did from 2002-2008. Slow Wimbledon and no indoor carpet anymore. His ace count stayed PHENOMENAL.

    Federer has never ever approached the numbers Sampras did. He backs his serve up with arguably the best forehand ever, incredible movement, arguably the best return ever etc.

    But it's hard to say a guy like Federer is one of the best servers ever when you have Raonic, Isner, Karlovic, Wayne Arthurs, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Stich, Sampras, Chris Guccione, Ivan Ljubijic, Boris Becker, Tsonga, Berdych, Del Potro, Sam Querrey and Monfils, all hitting around twice as many aces a year as him (400-900 more).

    That's just off the top of my head by the way. There have been so many great servers in history. Roscoe Tanner is another one. etc etc. Federer is a weaker server than Sampras. I mean just look at their exhibitions, the difference in the serves was very noticeable and Sampras was hitting 137mph pretty regularly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
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  23. Jaitock1991

    Jaitock1991 Hall of Fame

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    Great post! I remember reading a thread here the other day when OP said that he thought that Raonic's serve is arguably the best ever, and that he felt it was, serve vs serve only, better than Pete's. He was attacked by everyone and told he couldn't be more wrong. The attackers then used different stats to back it up, such as number of aces and clutchiness. I can agree with the clutchiness, Pete's in a league of his own in that aspect. But at the same time, it's just not fair to use number of aces as an argument, as hitting 1000+ aces pr season today is a much bigger achievment than it was back then. The court speed is like half of what it was back then!

    BTW. Last week, I noticed Milos serving a couple of severe bombs that I've never seen anything close to before. He played on Arthur Ashe, and on two different occosations, I saw him hit an ace that bounced up over the 2.4 meters high wall in front of the crowd stands, before powerfully hitting the same guy twice :) It was funny to watch, but at the same time scary to see what kind of bombs his opponents is having to deal with, and I'm pretty sure that if he played back in the fast eras, his serve alone would give him tons of titles, big ones too. And his number of aces and first serve % of points won? I don't even dear thinking about it. :|
     
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  24. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    If you think Berdych or Del Potro are in the same league of servers as Federer then you clearly don't know all that much about tennis.

    Federer wins far more points and is far less attackable on his serve (second serve especially) than Berdych and Del Potro can even dream of when averaged out over a season.

    At no point did I say Federer was a better server than Sampras. He's not close imo.

    That said, if you're going to bring up people like Berdych and Del Potro as if they're in Federer's league of serving you're really just letting people who actually pay attention that it's not worth discussing it with you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
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  25. 10is

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    Compared to his prime? Definitely not! From 04-07 Federer was consistently averaging around 119-121 mph for the 1st serve. From 09-11 his 1st serve speed has consistenly been around 115 mph. He now serves on average at least 5 mph slower than when he was in his prime. This change coincides with his burgeoning back issues which started around 08-09. It's the same reason why you don't see the vicious kick serve that he used to have as often either (if at all). One need only compare prime and post-prime Federer on their pronation and the extent to which they arch their backs especially on their kick serves. For instance, you hardly see kick serves like these anymore:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM1P2ej4YtY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfJFikZkCv8


    As for serving mechanics which influence speed, let's compare his 2005 serve to its 2009 counterpart:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xQFA_Ng25A

    vs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TM8b...tailpage#t=55s

    Not only did he toss the ball higher in 2005 but also notice the difference in his positioning, his knee bend and, the torque on his body upon contact.

    As good a server as he is even now, his serve and moreover its "clutchness" is nowhere near what it used to be back in the day. However such was the potency of his ground game and forehand in particular in those days that his serve was overshadowed and consequently underrated. Now that his ground game has deteriorated, his reliance on the serve is more prominent which is why some are under the impression that his serve has become "better" which is ridiculous. Here are some of his serving speed stats from 2003-2007:

    Year 2003 127 mph 4th round U.S Open vs Nalbandian.
    Year 2004 132 mph Final U.S Open vs Hewitt.
    Year 2005 133 mph Semifinal Aussie Open vs Safin.
    Year 2006 135 mph 4th round Aussie open vs Haas.
    Year 2007 136 mph Semifinal French open vs Davydenko.

    While in the past his defence to offence and (vice versa) transitional game was peerless, now due to his flagging physical/athletic attributes, he now knows he has to dominate points from the outset to win them, and thus he now builds his game around his serve (emphasizing strategy and placement), looking to finish points quickly and taking more risks. This over-reliance on the serve compared to his prime enhances the (false) perception of his serve having improved.
     
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  26. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    You're right, he definitely has tweaked his serve over the years and his stance and the torque he gets from his torso in particular but I disagree about his apparently better serve being a myth.

    As the returning of his peers got better and better he made the changes to his serve but in particular his second serve - which was never as good in his prime as it has been the past two years. By today's standards he practically just rolled over his seconder serve a lot of the time in his prime. His changes have definitely worked in helping him keep playing dominant tennis as his movement reduced with age. His serve direction and variation is second to none and he's living proof that accuracy is as equally potent at equalising good returners than sheer pace.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
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  27. roberttennis54

    roberttennis54 Semi-Pro

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    Just checked the stats for a number of matches and it seems you are right. Federer's serve now IS actually worse than it used to be. It's at best the same level when he was a teenage and usually 4-5mph slower than it was during his prime.
     
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  28. Bobby Jr

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    You have to be careful using speed as the definitive measure of serves. Federer is hitting his second serve with much more spin than he used to so it's a much, much better serve - regardless of speed. His first serve, likewise, he varies more either in pace of placement - both of which would reduce the average speed somewhat.

    If he is serving slower it isn't reflected to any significant level in his ace statisitics. (note, 2011 was a particularly poor year for him in ace numbers - his big dip in aces shows this. Despite having a poor first 8 months of the years he had an astonishingly dominant 3 months at the end of the year.. but he was still down 20-25% in aces on the few years prior)

    2002: 504
    2003: 690
    2004: 563
    2005: 599
    2006: 656
    2007: 597
    2008: 695
    2009: 657
    2010: 658
    2011: 504
    2012: 529 (and counting)

    This year he's at 8.3 aces per match to date... yet last year he was 6.6 per match... a huge gap really (over 20%). And in 2012 we're still got some of the faster courts/conditions which seem to suit Federer yet to come. If he plays only 15 more matches this year at his current ace rate of aces he will have roughly 653 which is as many as all but a couple of years in his prime - and while playing fewer matches.

    But I digress.... it's also worth noting as another example of the danger in using aces as the main factor in serving dominance. 2007 was one of his most dominant ever and yet he served over 61 fewer aces (10% less) than 2010 which was a worse year for him overall than the four years previous. In only one of those years did he serve more aces than 2010.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
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  29. BeHappy

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    I looked it up and you're right about Berdych and Del Potro, astonishingly low aces per year given their height and the MPH they hit on their first serves. I just assumed they'd be hitting 800-900 a year like Tsonga and Ljubijic, but no.

    I thought you were saying Federer was on the same level at serving as Federer or other top servers, as long as you're not saying that I have no disagreement with you. He is a good, but not great, server.
     
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  30. BeHappy

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    I'm really confused reading this post. There's an increase of nearly 10mph in Federer's serve in the stats you listed at the end? You seem to be saying they're proof that Federer's serve is slower?
     
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  31. 10is

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    Those are stats from Federer's prime. His serve speed reached its zenith in 2007 and has appreciably declined since 2008.
     
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  32. 10is

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    I disagree - purely from a service motion perspective I would have to rank Michael Stich as the best -- extremely languid yet generating so much power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
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  33. 10is

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    Agree to disagree then. :)
     
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  34. Bobby Jr

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    Reached its zenith in 2007.... the most dominant year of his career but when he served less aces than three of the five years prior? After 2007 he then proceeded to hit more and more aces for three straight years as his serve got worse. Basically 100 more in 2008 alone.

    The stats show, according to your reckoning, that as Federer's serve has decreased in speed he's hit consistently more and more aces. In fact, he's on track this year to have his 3rd or 4th best season ever aces-wise.
     
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  35. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    Also agree the serve is slower now than even 3-4 years ago but more variety. I remember Fed hitting the 120s pretty much every first serve and getting into the 130s now and then. Now its about 150 and rarely gets over 125 but he uses that slow angled slice alot more as a change up.

    His first serve is still very effective...maybe more effective than his prime even if he has lost a little speed. However, he seems to have lost something on his second serve...maybe less spin due to his back. People are really teeing off on his second serve now and that is why he gets broken in his bad service games.
     
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  36. 10is

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    Using ace-count to demonstrate serving superiority is inherently flawed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
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  37. RF20Lennon

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    see Sampras hit huge big bombs and they were too fast to return. Fed on the other hand hits his spots and thats what makes it hard return so its a different type of serving by most players can return feds more because there more athletic now
     
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  38. 10is

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    Exactly! Federer's second serve used to be amongst the very best in his prime -- now its far less potent.
     
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  39. Vcore89

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    Federer serve for me anytime, all the time. Not the Goran serve or Sampras serve. Novak and Rafa serve? Heck No.

    Becker serve in his prime? The best serving motion there ever was but it is now the Federer serve.

    Not talking who can serve the biggest but Federer's serve sure does construct points!
     
    #39
  40. Bobby Jr

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    His second serve now is by far, beyond any doubt at all, better than it was in his prime. It's not even a remotely close comparison.

    As an example: not a single year since 2003 has Federer won a higher percentage of second serve points than in 2012 (I only checked back to 2003). And that has been against a bigger groups of peers who are in their prime, with improved string technology and more people who are regarded as being great returners than in 2003. And he's playing guys of a higher calibre more often than in his prime allegedly too. :p

    If this isn't at least highly indicative of the improving quality of his second serve then feel free to explain.

    Please don't tell me that as his serve got worse, his footwork got worse and his forehand lost some of it's sting he somehow (sic) improved his ground game to back up his second serve? Wouldn't that fly in the face of the opinion of the vast majority here?

    Seriously... I don't know how people who purport to be close followers of tennis in the tone of their posts miss stuff as blatantly obvious as his second serve being an improvement on 5 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
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  41. Bobby Jr

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    That's because more and more players are standing 2m behind the baseline to return even his second serve. The advent of having to play Isner/Raonic/Karlovic etc has really forced everyone up their returning game somewhat and it has definitely been the case.
     
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  42. 10is

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    Wrong. There is always doubt since using statistics to validate a hypothesis depends on the contextual framework within which you are attempting to interpret that data. For instance I completely disagree that players are altogether better retuners than they were 10 years, especially when you consider players like Hewitt, Nalbandian, Agassi etc and compare them against Nadal, Djokovic and Murray et al. Of course a statistical comparision would be invalid since the latter trio are still in their prime hence their numbers will of course be better than the former group at this juncture.

    Anyhow, here are Federer's hardcourt serving statistics from the ATP Website:

    2003:
    59% 1st Serve
    80% 1st Serve Points Won
    60% 2nd Serve Points Won

    68% Break Points Saved (out of 257)

    642 Service Games Played

    2004:
    61% 1st Serve
    78% 1st Serve Points Won
    57% 2nd Serve Points Won

    73% Break Points Saved (out of 169)

    563 Service Games Played

    2005:
    63% 1st Serve
    77% 1st Serve Points Won
    60% 2nd Serve Points Won

    71% Break Points Saved (out of 191)

    645 Service Games Played

    2006:
    62% 1st Serve
    77% 1st Serve Points Won
    58% 2nd Serve Points Won

    72% Break Points Saved (out of 246)

    738 Service Games Played

    2007:
    63% 1st Serve
    78% 1st Serve Points Won
    61% 2nd Serve Points Won

    64% Break Points Saved (out of 164) <------- Decline Starts

    628 Service Games Played

    2008:
    64% 1st Serve
    78% 1st Serve Points Won
    58% 2nd Serve Points Won

    69% Break Points Saved (out of 181)

    562 Service Games Played

    2009:
    63% 1st Serve
    78% 1st Serve Points Won
    56% 2nd Serve Points Won

    68% Break Points Saved (out of 213)

    623 Service Games Played

    2010:
    61% 1st Serve
    79% 1st Serve Points Won
    56% 2nd Serve Points Won

    68% Break Points Saved (out of 221)

    659 Service Games Played

    2011:
    63% 1st Serve
    79% 1st Serve Points Won
    57% 2nd Serve Points Won

    63% Break Points Saved (out of 168 )

    596 Service Games Played
    -----------------

    The BP saved % and 2nd serve points won % decrease on average in the post-2007 period. Also, there is a correlation that can be made between his season win %, his overall service points won % and the number of break points saved %.

    Yes, the post 07 decline in his service game isn't altogether that prominent compared to the decline in his return game but it is there. Service return wise, between 03-07, he never went below 29% return games won, and averaged 30.2%. In 2008 thorugh 2011, the "postpeak" years, Fed never went "above" 28% return games won, and averaged 26.5%. That's a clear and significant decline

    When comparing stats such as these, its important to look at "trends", not year-to-year blips in order for a hypothesis to have statistical validity. No one goes straight up or straight down uninterruptedly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
    #42
  43. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    :lol: ... How convenient that you chose only the hard court statistics because they are the ones which support your point in from 2005 to 2007.

    The serve stats, taken in their entirety, are the more accurate comparison in addition to being statistically more relevant. That comparison would be applicable across the whole group of peers.

    Not to mention if you consider hard courts only you have also chosen consider the surface which has, by far, had the biggest changes in average conditions across the year. Some have gone from medium speed to being as slow as clay, and very few have gone in the other direction. This somewhat relegates the hard-court only assumptions you make to be based on half truths or, at best, convenient considering a book-ended sub-set of the serve stats - let alone other factors.

    The end-all of the discussion should be this: when you watch Federer's second serve from 2005 and compare it to 2012 what do you see? If you can't see he's improved it then, by all means, enjoy watching tennis via a spread-sheet of numbers which omit major chapters of the story.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
    #43
  44. 10is

    10is Professional

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    I took into account only hard court statistics because not only is it the dominant surface on the tour (thus a higher number of data points allowing for more statistical validity) but is also a decent guage of Federer's form considering it is the surface (primarily because of its overall prevalence on the tour) which has had the greatest influence in sustaining Federer dominance in the tour. Federer's overall success is heavily premised on his success on hard courts.

    Having thus proved you wrong, the rest of your post is hyperbole (as usual) in a futile attempt to deflect the topic away from the absurdity of your reasoning. I have already stated that I am willing to agree to disagree (and respect your opinion in the process) but if you want to get involved in further banter simply to satisfy your bruised ego, I sadly will not be able to partake.

    Have a lovely evening! :)
     
    #44
  45. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    If that's in reference to me, well I didn't say that Raonic's serve is the best serve at all, it isn't, and didn't say it was better than Pete's only that it was comparable and worthy of dicussion. Apologies if this is towards someone else though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
    #45
  46. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    ...because it suited your version of the story, not the whole story.

    You haven't proven anything other than you don't watch tennis. Anyone with a remotely acute eye for detail can see Federer's second serve is different than it was in his prime. You only need to watch a couple of videos to see this much.
     
    #46
  47. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Legend

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    Btw, don't be talking about the big names only. Joachim Johansson really has that big serve. Probably better than anyone else.
     
    #47
  48. KitinovR

    KitinovR New User

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    He is in decline regarding the speed of the 1st and 2nd serve.
    That is consequence of the today's tennis worst kept secret.
    Roger's chronic problems with his back.
     
    #48
  49. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    There is a video somewhere on YouTube of Federer's aces against ARod in the WO final. 10 mins of ARod just walking.

    FYB say it was ARods return that was the problem, ot at least his drop from the semi, rather than RF upping the ante.
     
    #49

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