Federer-the greatest pusher of all time !!!

[Gregory Diamond]

We can see in this video that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment when ball leaves the strings the fist and the head of the racket move with the same speed. Racket stays perpendicular to the arm. Federer pushes the ball forward. The ball "feels" the whole body not only the head of the racket. Whatever Federed does after the ball left the strings has no effect on the ball.

The same here.

Diokovic said that he didnt use wrist in his two handed backhand. It means that the head of the racket and his hand are moving with the same speed. He pushes the ball.

I am also a pusher. That is why I have won a lot of tournaments.

 

[IowaGuy]

Are you related to @oserver ?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Are you related to @oserver ?

Who is Oserver ?

 

[mcs1970]

 

[oserver]

Who is Oserver ?

This wakes me up!

@Gregory Diamond I have a few thread mainly focus on the serve, but my serve model evolved into the forehand model, so I call it "Forehand Tennis Serve". I watched Federer's forehand slow motion many times. The way he let the whole arm lag behind the body, letting the body dictate the swing. This way, his fist is slightly in front of the racket head, as if the arm's function is just for absorbing the ball, and let the body do the hitting. Here is a thread I did a few days ago that talks about division of labor in tennis strokes -

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-task-in-tennis-strokes.622036/#post-12535033

 

[Gregory Diamond]

This wakes me up!

@Gregory Diamond I have a few thread mainly focus on the serve, but my serve model evolved into the forehand model, so I call it "Forehand Tennis Serve". I watched Federer's forehand slow motion many times. The way he let the whole arm lag behind the body, letting the body dictate the swing. This way, his fist is slightly in front of the racket head, as if the arm's function is just for absorbing the ball, and let the body do the hitting. Here is a thread I did a few days ago that talks about division of labor in tennis strokes -

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-task-in-tennis-strokes.622036/#post-12535033

 

[Gregory Diamond]

This wakes me up!

@Gregory Diamond I have a few thread mainly focus on the serve, but my serve model evolved into the forehand model, so I call it "Forehand Tennis Serve". I watched Federer's forehand slow motion many times. The way he let the whole arm lag behind the body, letting the body dictate the swing. This way, his fist is slightly in front of the racket head, as if the arm's function is just for absorbing the ball, and let the body do the hitting. Here is a thread I did a few days ago that talks about division of labor in tennis strokes -

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-task-in-tennis-strokes.622036/#post-12535033

You are right that just before the stroke the head of the racket is in a position that it cant go back any more and it stays the same way when the ball is on the strings. The whole body pushes the ball forward.

 

[styksnstryngs]

you guys should just PM each other and leave the rest of us alone.

 

[Curious]

He gently/elegantly/effortlessly/loosely swings his racket at the ball. There is no pushing. By the way life doesn't flow in slow motion.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

He gently/elegantly/effortlessly/loosely swings his racket at the ball. There is no pushing. By the way life doesn't flow in slow motion.

If the hand and head of the racket go forward at the same speed when the ball is on the strings then it is pushing. He loosens the grip when the ball left the strings. Look at his tight muscles of forearm when the ball is on the strings.

 

[Curious]

If the hand and head of the racket go forward at the same speed when the ball is on the strings then it is pushing. He loosens the grip when the ball left the strings. Look at his tight muscles of forearm when the ball is on the strings.

Yeah I see what you mean now. He is pushing!!

 

[oserver]

Yeah I see what you mean now. He is pushing!!

The arm is not hitting the ball but absorbing the it with a loose wrist and passive hand and arm. The body is doing the pushing or hitting the ball.

If the arm is active, not passive, the body will be lag behind, creating a more rigid link between the racket and body. The lower the playing level, the faster the arm. This can be often seen in beginner's quick swing forehand. The result is that the ball will bounce off quickly, depriving the crucial time needed for the body to push/drive the ball harder.

 

[rkw]

from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment when ball leaves the strings the fist and the head of the racket move with the same speed

The time is far too short to accurately measure the speed difference between the fist and the racket head. It's easier to see the speed difference of the fist and racket head in the following two pictures. Clearly, the racket head travels far longer and hence has a much higher speed as compared with the fist. NO PUSHING according to your definition.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

The time is far too short to accurately measure the speed difference between the fist and the racket head. It's easier to see the speed difference of the fist and racket head in the following two pictures. Clearly, the racket head travels far longer and hence has a much higher speed as compared with the fist. NO PUSHING according to your definition.

The racket head begins to move faster when the hand changes direction(when it goes across the body) but it is long after ball left the strings.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

you guys should just PM each other and leave the rest of us alone.

You can see that just before the stroke the head of the racket go faster than the hand but during the stroke it changes. It means that during the stroke Federer pushes forward the handle and not the head of the racket. If he accelerated the head it would move even faster than before the stroke.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

In this video you can see that from the moment the ball touches the strings horizontal velocity of the racket head is lower than before first contact and doesnt increase. Only vertical velocity increases.

 

[FiReFTW]

Worst thread ever.

There are very few instances where ur controling the racquet and mot letting it snap into the ball..

OP just happened to post one of the few examples of this while ignoring 10000000 others and now claiming st*pid stuff.

 

[FiReFTW]

In this video you can see that from the moment the ball touches the strings horizontal velocity of the racket head is lower than before first contact and doesnt increase. Only vertical velocity increases.

If you dont see the angle difference between full lag and at point of contact ur as blind as a bat, thats all im going to say.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

If you dont see the angle difference between full lag and at point of contact ur as blind as a bat, thats all im going to say.

From 0:59 when there is first contact of the ball with the strings to 1:01 when the ball is not on the strings horizontal velocity of the head and hand are almost the same. Federer during that most important period is pushing forward the handle and not the head. Movement of the head is only consequence of the movement of the handle.

 

[FiReFTW]

Fom 0:59 when there is first contact of the ball with the strings to 1:01 when the ball is not on the strings horizontal velocity of the head and hand are almost the same. Federer during that most important period is pushing forward the handle and not the head. Movement of the head is only consequence of the movement of the handle.

Because he reaches full extension and the momentum goes vertical then, mot because he is gripping the racquet tight.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Because he reaches full extension and the momentum goes vertical then, mot because he is gripping the racquet tight.

No. Horizontal velocity of the ball depends on horizontal velocity of the head of the racket. The second important factor is whether the ball "feels" only the head of the racket( what usually is the case if you use wrist to push the ball) or the whole body behind the racket too. And from 0:59 to 1:01 hand and head of the racket still move forward. Wrist is not pushing the ball forward but mainly prevents the head from remaining behind.

 

[jch]

Man... please... Go practice.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Prior to contact the lagging racket head has caught up to the hand. So obviously the forward speed of the racket head is greater than the forward speed of the hand.

The ball meeting the stringbed constitutes a collision. No surprise that the collision reduces the forward (horizontal) speed of the racket (but not necessarily the speed of the hand).

However, while the forward speed of the racquet has been reduced during/after contact, the overall racket head speed is possibly greater than its pre-contact speed as well as being greater than the overall speed of the hand.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Prior to contact the lagging racket head has caught up to the hand. So obviously the forward speed of the racket head is greater than the forward speed of the hand.

The ball meeting the stringbed constitutes a collision. No surprise that the collision reduces the forward (horizontal) speed of the racket (but not necessarily the speed of the hand).

However, while the forward speed of the racquet has been reduced during/after contact, the overall racket head speed is possibly greater than its pre-contact speed as well as being greater than the overall speed of the hand.

Only part of it is true. Collision with the ball is one of the reasons why horizontal velocity of the head is lower than before collision but the fact that during collision and even some time after collision hand and head of the racket are moving with the same speed forward means that during collision Federer pushes the handle and not the head. His wrist is blocking the head so that it didnt remain behind but he doesnt block the movement of the head forward. That is why the centrifugal force accelerates the head when he pushes his hand across the body. But it is long after the stroke and doesnt affect the ball.

 

[FiReFTW]

He pushes the handle instead of the head??? How the heck would he push the head? My god where do these crazy people come from..

 

[Gregory Diamond]

He pushes the handle instead of the head??? How the heck would he push the head? My god where do these crazy people come from..

He could do it using wrist. It is not so difficult to understand.

 

[FiReFTW]

He could do it using wrist. It is not so difficult to understand.

The fact is, the wrist when it lags is more laid back than when it is at contact with the ball, you can compare all the videos and pictures and u will see its true for 80-90% of shots, apart from some cases where u deliberately hold it back to aim it at a certain spot when a bit late on the ball.

So its not true that the wrist is stiff and still and not moving at all forward.
And its moving forward because of a loose grip not because the player forces it forward.

It still moves much more vertical than it does forwars but that doesnt mean it doesnt move forward at all.

 

[Dragy]

He pushes the handle instead of the head??? How the heck would he push the head? My god where do these crazy people come from..

For normal stroke he does nothing but racquet face control by the contact with effort - apart from that, lets it cruise into contact and finish with further ISR+pronation for safety. For rushed, less in-front stroke he might be still pulling the handle up and rotating his arm internally through the contact. Toly videos confirm racquet face angle changing during contact phase, and tip moving faster than handle. Not that fast as before contact - due to collision with the ball, as pointed by @SystemicAnomaly. Gregory challenges Ponytail PoMo to be a new benchmark with trolly threads.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

The fact is, the wrist when it lags is more laid back than when it is at contact with the ball, you can compare all the videos and pictures and u will see its true for 80-90% of shots, apart from some cases where u deliberately hold it back to aim it at a certain spot when a bit late on the ball.

So its not true that the wrist is stiff and still and not moving at all forward.
And its moving forward because of a loose grip not because the player forces it forward.

It still moves much more vertical than it does forwars but that doesnt mean it doesnt move forward at all.

The angle between the racket and forearm from the moment the ball touches the strings to even some time after the ball left the strings is about 90 degrees and doesnt change. If during the collision(when the ball touches the strings) Federer actively pushed the head of the racket forward using his wrist then just after the ball left the strings it would cause the head to accelerate. It would move faster than the hand but it doesnt happen. The head begins to accelerate(mostly up) when the hand goes across the body. Long after the ball left the strings. It means that during the collision and some time after Federer pushed the handle foreward and the movement of the head was only consequence of it.

 

[Dragy]

The angle between the racket and forearm from the moment the ball touches the strings to even some time after the ball left the strings is about 90 degrees and doesnt change. If during the collision(when the ball touches the strings) Federer actively pushed the head of the racket forward using his wrist then just after the ball left the strings it would cause the head to accelerate. It would move faster than the hand but it doesnt happen. The head begins to accelerate(mostly up) when the hand goes across the body. Long after the ball left the strings. It means that during the collision and some time after Federer pushed the handle foreward and the movement of the head was only consequence of it.

The correct part of your post is that Federer doesn't actively push the head of the racquet, you know, at all, during whole motion. He pulls the handle with relaxed wrist and grip, with allows racquet head lag behind. However, by the contact he's almost done with all muscle efforts and only, you know, holds the handle gently so that the racquet doesn't fly away. May be a bit of exaggeration, but true as general concept. Arm (and hand and handle) forward acceleration is over some instance before contact, it actually decelerates, which allows the tip to catch up into contact. Some would even say he pulls the handle accross... @5263

 

[Gregory Diamond]

For normal stroke he does nothing but racquet face control by the contact with effort - apart from that, lets it cruise into contact and finish with further ISR+pronation for safety. For rushed, less in-front stroke he might be still pulling the handle up and rotating his arm internally through the contact. Toly videos confirm racquet face angle changing during contact phase, and tip moving faster than handle. Not that fast as before contact - due to collision with the ball, as pointed by @SystemicAnomaly. Gregory challenges Ponytail PoMo to be a new benchmark with trolly threads.

Look at muscles of his forearm ( in the second video). Up to 0:27 they are tense. These muscles are used to pull the hand back. He is doing it not only when the ball touches the strings but some time after the ball left the racket too.

 

[Dragy]

Look at muscles of his forearm ( in the second video). Up to 0:27 they are tense. These muscles are used to pull the hand back. He is doing it not only when the ball touches the strings but some time after the ball left the racket too.

That's speculation to call such things like muscle tension based on video. However, you might be interested to know @JohnYandell if I remember correctly claimed pros tend to inhibit wrist recovery towards neutral on some shots, to control the racquet plane from overrotating before contact.

 

[travlerajm]

I think the OP is trying to say that Federer is actively accelerating the forearm forward into contact (the hand moves forward with it because it’s attached to the forearm), but that unlike most players he is not applying a torque about the wrist joint.

Considering the evidence that the angle between forearm and racquet is slightly greater than 90 degrees and remains virtually constant in the moment just before contact, I think this seems plausible and likely true.

 

[Kevo]

Whatever actually happens at the moment of contact, I am fairly certain that there is no direct control over that particular moment as opposed to the moments immediately prior and after. So if Federer or anyone else is pulling the racquet before contact and after contact that they are also pulling it during contact.

 

[styksnstryngs]

You can see that just before the stroke the head of the racket go faster than the hand but during the stroke it changes. It means that during the stroke Federer pushes forward the handle and not the head of the racket. If he accelerated the head it would move even faster than before the stroke.

I don't think you read my post correctly.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Whatever actually happens at the moment of contact, I am fairly certain that there is no direct control over that particular moment as opposed to the moments immediately prior and after. So if Federer or anyone else is pulling the racquet before contact and after contact that they are also pulling it during contact.

You are right. It is obvious.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I think the OP is trying to say that Federer is actively accelerating the forearm forward into contact (the hand moves forward with it because it’s attached to the forearm), but that unlike most players he is not applying a torque about the wrist joint.

Considering the evidence that the angle between forearm and racquet is slightly greater than 90 degrees and remains virtually constant in the moment just before contact, I think this seems plausible and likely true.

This angle is the same even some time after the contact.

 

[mcs1970]

I think the OP is trying to say that Federer is actively accelerating the forearm forward into contact (the hand moves forward with it because it’s attached to the forearm), but that unlike most players he is not applying a torque about the wrist joint.

There is a difference between 'actively accelerating' and 'pushing'.

 

[vex]

Pushing. Hitting. It’s all the same. You’re all just talking about the thousands of a second a ball experiences dwell time on the strings. Doesn’t matter what you label it.

In the end every shot comes down to the combination of these 3 factors:

1) angle of the racket face at contact (how many degrees closed the angle is determines net clearance)
2) vertical rackethead speed during the dwell time (what determines spin and net clearance)
3) plow thru (the amount of force applied or absorbed - determines pace)

Those are the 3 basic components of every swing. Other than that it’s just directional control and/or sidespin.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

There is a difference between 'actively accelerating' and 'pushing'.

Why dont you like word "pushing" ? What is bad in "pushing" if Federer won so many tournaments ? Pushing means control. Why do you think that throwing a racket to the ball (hitting) is better ?

 

[mcs1970]

Why dont you like word "pushing" ? What is bad in "pushing" if Federer won so many tournaments ? Pushing means control. Why do you think that throwing a racket to the ball (hitting) is better ?

I don't have any problems with the word 'pushing' by itself. I've been accused of playing that style, and it doesn't bother me. However, pushing is a term commonly used to denote a style that does not involve acceleration through the swing path. It has nothing to do with the angle of the racquet or where the torque is applied from. If you are actively accelerating the racquet as Fed is clearly doing it's not pushing. As for control, the difference between someone like you and a pro is that the pro can control the ball just fine with tremendous racquet acceleration too. You are a good player for your age and for your level. However, you can't do that.

This is not pushing the ball:

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Why dont you like word "pushing" ? What is bad in "pushing" if Federer won so many tournaments ? Pushing means control. Why do you think that throwing a racket to the ball (hitting) is better ?

It's absurd to characterize what Federer does as 'pushing' just to justify or rationalize your own tendencies. A whole lot more 'pull' elements to Roger strokes than 'push' elements.

Pushing has come to refer to a style of play that does not really apply to Federer.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I don't have any problems with the word 'pushing' by itself. I've been accused of playing that style, and it doesn't bother me. However, pushing is a term commonly used to denote a style that does not involve acceleration through the swing path. It has nothing to do with the angle of the racquet or where the torque is applied from. If you are actively accelerating the racquet as Fed is clearly doing it's not pushing. As for control, the difference between someone like you and a pro is that the pro can control the ball just fine with tremendous racquet acceleration too. You are a good player for your age and for your level. However, you can't do that.

This is not pushing the ball:

I have seen this video many times. I see a lot of fast pushing here. If I say "pushing" I mean not using wrist to accelerate the ball. It is what we see in first two videos in this thread.

 

[mcs1970]

I have seen this video many times. I see a lot of fast pushing here. If I say "pushing" I mean not using wrist to accelerate the ball. It is what we see in first two videos in this thread.

If you say 'pushing' to imply something that's not commonly implied with that word in Tennis, that's your problem. Not mine.

In any case no pro really uses the wrist to accelerate the ball upon point of contact. Even Djoker / Nadal videos have show that. At the same time there is a wrist component in that relaxing the wrist and creating the lag which is what gives the tremendous racquet acceleration. If what you say were true and there is no wrist in play at all the stroke would look stiff and not be able to generate much power. Look at the video I put which shows the whole stroke and not just cherry picking some piece of the stroke. See the racquet follow through and how it whips around.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

If you say 'pushing' to imply something that's not commonly implied with that word in Tennis, that's your problem. Not mine.

In any case no pro really uses the wrist to accelerate the ball upon point of contact. Even Djoker / Nadal videos have show that. At the same time there is a wrist component in that relaxing the wrist and creating the lag which is what gives the tremendous racquet acceleration. If what you say were true and there is no wrist in play at all the stroke would look stiff and not be able to generate much power. Look at the video I put which shows the whole stroke and not just cherry picking some piece of the stroke. See the racquet follow through and how it whips around.

If as we see that from the moment the ball touches the strings to the moment it leaves the strings and even longer the head and the hand are moving with the same speed and the angle between the racket and the arm does not change it means that Federer doesnt use wrist to accelerate the ball. The wrist is sometimes used to rotate the ball. All accelerating of the head after releasing the wrist doesnt affect the ball because it happens when the ball is not on the strings.

 

[Dragy]

If as we see that from the moment the ball touches the strings to the moment it leaves the strings and even longer the head and the hand are moving with the same speed

But they are not
And true - Federer doesnt use wrist to accelerate the ball. It's racquet pivoting around wrist from lagged through less-lagged by contact to neutral some time after contact which marks RH acceleration in the final phase of stroke - into the contact.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

But they are not
And true - Federer doesnt use wrist to accelerate the ball. It's racquet pivoting around wrist from lagged through less-lagged by contact to neutral some time after contact which marks RH acceleration in the final phase of stroke - into the contact.

Of course they are. Even when the ball left the strings for some time the racket is still parallel to the net(0:19 in the first video). If before the stroke the racket is parallel to the net and after the stroke then the head and handle must move with the same speed. It is obvious. Whatever happens after that doesnt affect the ball.

 

[a12345]

Of course they are. Even when the ball left the strings for some time the racket is still parallel to the net(0:19 in the first video). If before the stroke the racket is parallel to the net and after the stroke then the head and handle must move with the same speed. It is obvious. Whatever happens after that doesnt affect the ball.

Federers wrist movement is not an active one, nor is any other players or at least it shouldnt be. The wrist is loose, the only reason it looks like hes moving it after contact is because the momentum of the racket carries his wrist round, not the other way around.

But thats basic stuff.

 

[FiReFTW]

OP must be either trolling or incredibly slow

Of course they are. Even when the ball left the strings for some time the racket is still parallel to the net(0:19 in the first video). If before the stroke the racket is parallel to the net and after the stroke then the head and handle must move with the same speed. It is obvious. Whatever happens after that doesnt affect the ball.

Time to stop trolling, whatever may happen at that milisecond at contact (most probably the result of the impact against the ball) has no relevance here.

Fact is

Federer uses his whole body kinetic chain to explode and initiate the forehand
Federer grips the raquet very loose and lightly
Because of that the racquet lags extremely and then snaps as the muscles that are prestreched get pulled like a whip
This produces tremendous racquet speed, and the angle of the racquet vs arm is much smaller at contact than it is at full lag position
Thats the only thing that matters and it has NOTHING to do with pushing the ball at all, that notion is simply RIDICILOUS.

 

[mcs1970]

All accelerating of the head after releasing the wrist doesnt affect the ball because it happens when the ball is not on the strings.

If it doesn't affect the ball, the question you need to ask yourself is why is there acceleration of the head after the shot? That acceleration is not giving him more control. Do you think Roger slowly pushes the ball for more control with a stiff wrist and then accelerates just for show? It's because the answer is simple. it's the lag created by a loose grip that is causing the acceleration to start with the momentum building up as he is hitting the ball coming at him with a lot of velocity and still have enough momentum to whip the racquet around. No pro is forcing the wrist into any shot. That doesn't mean they are pushing or that the acceleration of the racquet post the collision of the ball is meaningless. The whole stroke shows how the loose grip and lag technique produces tremendous racquet acceleration and generates the so called effortless power.