Federer-the greatest pusher of all time !!!

[Gregory Diamond]

Federers wrist movement is not an active one, nor is any other players or at least it shouldnt be. The wrist is loose, the only reason it looks like hes moving it after contact is because the momentum of the racket carries his wrist round not the other way around.

But thats basic stuff.

There is a myth about role of snapping the racket. As we see in first 2 videos the ball leaves the strings before the head accelerates relative to the handle. This snapping is mainly the way of achieving the position of the racket where it is perpendicular to the forearm. Most women dont snap(Serena Williams, Sharapova, Azarenka, Wozniacki....)

 

[Gregory Diamond]

OP must be either trolling or incredibly slow


Time to stop trolling, whatever may happen at that milisecond at contact (most probably the result of the impact against the ball) has no relevance here.

Fact is

Federer uses his whole body kinetic chain to explode and initiate the forehand
Federer grips the raquet very loose and lightly
Because of that the racquet lags extremely and then snaps as the muscles that are prestreched get pulled like a whip
This produces tremendous racquet speed, and the angle of the racquet vs arm is much smaller at contact than it is at full lag position
Thats the only thing that matters and it has NOTHING to do with pushing the ball at all, that notion is simply RIDICILOUS.

In these photos last moment is when the ball for the first time touches the strings. In my videos you can see what happens next. The head slows down because of impact and the hand speeds up. Then the hand and the head move with the same speed even a moment after the ball already left the strings.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

If it doesn't affect the ball, the question you need to ask yourself is why is there acceleration of the head after the shot? That acceleration is not giving him more control. Do you think Roger slowly pushes the ball for more control with a stiff wrist and then accelerates just for show? It's because the answer is simple. it's the lag created by a loose grip that is causing the acceleration to start with the momentum building up as he is hitting the ball coming at him with a lot of velocity and still have enough momentum to whip the racquet around. No pro is forcing the wrist into any shot. That doesn't mean they are pushing or that the acceleration of the racquet post the collision of the ball is meaningless. The whole stroke shows how the loose grip and lag technique produces tremendous racquet acceleration and generates the so called effortless power.

As I said earlier head of the racket accelerates after the stroke because of centrifugal force caused by moving the hand across the body. It is mainly acceleration in the verical direction and it is responsible for rotation.

 

[a12345]

There is a myth about role of snapping the racket. As we see in first 2 videos the ball leaves the strings before the head accelerates relative to the handle. This snapping is mainly the way of achieving the position of the racket where it is pependicular to the forearm. Most women dont snap(Serena Williams, Sharapova, Azarenka, Wozniacki....)

This shows the racket lag on the forehand that creates the elastic band effect. The racket head accelerates into the ball because its catching up with the hand. The snap is not an active wrist movement its just a consequence of the arm stopping its forward motion and the racket has to catch up.

Most Pro women use the WTA forehand which is a totally different technique and requires you to push the ball because you cant generate racket lag if you start the racket swing from behind the body.

 

[mcs1970]

As I said earlier head of the racket accelerates after the stroke because of centrifugal force caused by moving the hand across the body. It is mainly acceleration in the verical direction and it is responsible for rotation.

Every thread of yours seems to end up with you contradicting yourself. First you said anything the racquet does after the ball leaves the string has no impact on the ball? So why are you contradicting yourself now and saying the racquet moving across is responsible for the rotation? If the racquet has no impact after the ball has left the strings, then by your own logic it should not cause any rotation either.

You are like one of those blind men who tried to identify the elephant but couldn't piece the complete picture. The rotation, speed, racquet whipping around,...etc. are all caused by the same thing..the loose wrist, the lag and the tremendous acceleration of the racquet. If Fed was just reaching for, absorbing the ball and then twisting his wrist long after the ball left it would be one terribly weak shot.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

This shows the racket lag on the forehand that creates the elastic band effect. The racket head accelerates into the ball because its catching up with the hand. The snap is not an active wrist movement its just a consequence of the arm stopping its forward motion and the racket has to catch up.

Most Pro women use the WTA forehand which is a totally different technique and requires you to push the ball because you cant generate racket lag if you start the racket swing from behind the body.

In this video you can see exactly the same what is in first two videos in this thread. We cant be surprised because it is the same person. It is true that before the collision with the ball the head moves faster than the hand. We can see it in my videos. But we see what happens next. I dont want to repeat the same. Parallel movement of the racket lasts for very short time and even in this video it is difficult to observe. But you can see it perfectly in my videos.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Every thread of yours seems to end up with you contradicting yourself. First you said anything the racquet does after the ball leaves the string has no impact on the ball? So why are you contradicting yourself now and saying the racquet moving across is responsible for the rotation? If the racquet has no impact after the ball has left the strings, then by your own logic it should not cause any rotation either.

You are like one of those blind men who tried to identify the elephant but couldn't piece the complete picture. The rotation, speed, racquet whipping around,...etc. are all caused by the same thing..the loose wrist, the lag and the tremendous acceleration of the racquet. If Fed was just reaching for, absorbing the ball and then twisting his wrist long after the ball left it would be one terribly weak shot.

I knew that you would say that. There is no contradiction. This acceleration after the ball left the strings doesnt affect the ball but this acceleration is the result of acceleration in the vertical direction before the racket touched the ball and that acceleration is responsible for rotation. I just was not precise in my previous comment.

 

[a12345]

I knew that you would say that. There is no contradiction. This acceleration after the ball left the strings doesnt affect the ball but this acceleration is the result of acceleration in the vertical direction before the racket touched the ball and that acceleration is responsible for rotation. I just was not precise in my previous comment.

Do you just mean that the racket lag and "snap" does not create horizontal acceleration but instead creates vertical acceleration?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Do you just mean that the racket lag and "snap" does not create horizontal acceleration but instead creates vertical acceleration?

That is what I say. Of course there are a lot of players who try to use this snap in the horizontal direction but they cant achieve great success.

 

[JohnYandell]

So the argument that will never die--or be settled. Any good forehand--90 percent of them are hit with the wrist laid back before, during, and after contact. There is some forward flexion in the wrist prior to contact, generated by the forces of the forward swing. So called lag or no lag that general rule applies.

The startling thing I learned from Brian Gordon is that good players actively inhibit the amount of that flex to create the angle of the racket head to determine the shot line.
Having filmed a few thousand forehands at lower levels--besides a few thousand pro forehands--the average player at least initially should focus on keeping the wrist laid back well out into the followthrough. If you try to keep it completely loose you won't get the pro effect and you will lose control of many many forehands.

 

[a12345]

That is what I say. Of course there are a lot of players who try to use this snap in the horizontal direction but they cant achieve great success.

You are correct. The racket lag is in fact the loading up of the internal shoulder rotation which creates vertical racket head speed.

Whilst the forward acceleration is created by the legs and body, I assume this is what you meant by the "pushing" ?

I think the problem is most people think of pushing as being associated with the WTA style forehand.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

So the argument that will never die--or be settled. Any good forehand--90 percent of them are hit with the wrist laid back before, during, and after contact. There is some forward flexion in the wrist prior to contact, generated by the forces of the forward swing. So called lag or no lag that general rule applies.

The startling thing I learned from Brian Gordon is that good players actively inhibit the amount of that flex to create the angle of the racket head to determine the shot line.
Having filmed a few thousand forehands at lower levels--besides a few thousand pro forehands--the average player at least initially should focus on keeping the wrist laid back well out into the followthrough. If you try to keep it completely loose you won't get the pro effect and you will lose control of many many forehands.

It is the first comment I can agree with. So if you are here I can go to sleep. You can lead this argument for next several hours and I`ll replace you tomorrow.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

You are correct. The racket lag is in fact the loading up of the internal shoulder rotation which creates vertical racket head speed.

Whilst the forward acceleration is created by the legs and body, I assume this is what you meant by the "pushing" ?

I think the problem is most people think of pushing as being associated with the WTA style forehand.

Second wise comment. I go to sleep now. Good night.

 

[oserver]

OP must be either trolling or incredibly slow


Time to stop trolling, whatever may happen at that milisecond at contact (most probably the result of the impact against the ball) has no relevance here.

Fact is

Federer uses his whole body kinetic chain to explode and initiate the forehand
Federer grips the raquet very loose and lightly
Because of that the racquet lags extremely and then snaps as the muscles that are prestreched get pulled like a whip
This produces tremendous racquet speed, and the angle of the racquet vs arm is much smaller at contact than it is at full lag position
Thats the only thing that matters and it has NOTHING to do with pushing the ball at all, that notion is simply RIDICILOUS.

Federer's forehand power comes from division of the labor, ie. the arm lets the body do the hitting/pushing. The loose arm and wrist are mainly for absorbing the incoming ball, prolong the ball stay on the string bed, so that big muscle groups down below have more time to drive the ball.

Only in lower playing levels, player try to speed up the arm, flexing their wrist, thinking the fast arm can increase the racket head speed and ball speed.

In other words, Federer's way is like playing a table tennis game with a rubber padded racket, and beginners are playing with a bare wooden racket. The rubber is Federer's union of loose wrist and passive arm.

 

[oserver]

Federers wrist movement is not an active one, nor is any other players or at least it shouldnt be. The wrist is loose, the only reason it looks like hes moving it after contact is because the momentum of the racket carries his wrist round, not the other way around.

But thats basic stuff.

"Let the body do the heavy hitting, and let the arm do 'almost' nothing.

If you haven't heard this from anyone else, then you hear it now from me, A 4.0 player!

The 'almost nothing' is just a little stretching; the arm still need to hold the racket and rotate it to meet the ball, with MINIMUM energy. MINIMUM, that's the key. One should waste arm's energy as much as possible.

Please notice I use meet instead of hit. Hitting the ball is not arm's job. This is the forehand way."
........
Above is what I wrote on another thread "Division of Labor and Delegation of Task In Tennis Strokes
"
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ation-of-task-in-tennis-strokes.622036/page-2

 

[mcs1970]

I knew that you would say that. There is no contradiction. This acceleration after the ball left the strings doesnt affect the ball but this acceleration is the result of acceleration in the vertical direction before the racket touched the ball and that acceleration is responsible for rotation. I just was not precise in my previous comment.

Who argued about acceleration in the vertical direction or horizontal direction? All that was being argued was you being adamant that he was not accelerating the racquet head and this statement of yours previously on this thread: " If he accelerated the head it would move even faster than before the stroke."

Glad you've come around. Another feature of your threads...start saying something to gain attention and then later on in the thread claim you were saying something else. Just like the 2hfh thread where you claimed later on that what you really meant was if someone was not strong enough to hit a 1hfh they might want to look at a 2hfh. Quite different from the initial shock jock style attention grabbing post. One can see a pattern to your shtick by now.

 

[rogerroger917]

Wonder twins activate!!

Diamond and Oserve

Together at last.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Who argued about acceleration in the vertical direction or horizontal direction? All that was being argued was you being adamant that he was not accelerating the racquet head and this statement of yours previously on this thread: " If he accelerated the head it would move even faster than before the stroke."

Glad you've come around. Another feature of your threads...start saying something to gain attention and then later on in the thread claim you were saying something else. Just like the 2hfh thread where you claimed later on that what you really meant was if someone was not strong enough to hit a 1hfh they might want to look at a 2hfh. Quite different from the initial shock jock style attention grabbing post. One can see a pattern to your shtick by now.

In #16 comment in this thread there is about horizontal and vertical acceleration.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I try to write what we established. Before contact with the ball the head moves faster than the hand because of centrifugal force. It all changes when the ball touches the strings. The head slows down and from 0:14 to 0:22 in first video the hand and the head of the racket are on the same hight and move forward with the same speed(90 degrees angle between the racket and forearm is the best proof). Even in the vertical direction the head moves during that period almost with the same speed as the hand( it means that the movement of the hand up has the largest contribution to rotation).Just before the collision with the ball hand is laid back in horizontal and in vertical direction. That is why the head of the racket reacts almost instantly to the movement of the hand in both directions. This is the most important in this method. Everything what happens later doesnt affect the ball and is only consequence of releasing of muscles and earlier gained momentum.

 

[Dragy]

90 degrees angle between the racket and forearm is the best proof).

Look, Gregory. The motion is circular - arm pivots at shoulder joint. If you insist the angle is 90 deg between forearm and racquet (which is not, as one would need the arm to be aligned straight forward by contact in such a case to achieve stringed facing the target) and remains unchanged through contact, this proves the opposite - that the tip moves faster, as being farther from the pivot point, and arm-racquet structure remaining unchanged. Do you see what I’m talking about?

 

[jch]

Before contact with the ball the head moves faster than the hand because of centrifugal force.

The Physicist. OMG.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Look, Gregory. The motion is circular - arm pivots at shoulder joint. If you insist the angle is 90 deg between forearm and racquet (which is not, as one would need the arm to be aligned straight forward by contact in such a case to achieve stringed facing the target) and remains unchanged through contact, this proves the opposite - that the tip moves faster, as being farther from the pivot point, and arm-racquet structure remaining unchanged. Do you see what I’m talking about?

This angle is slightly more than 90 degrees. Dont repeat something what is untrue. Please look at the racket in the first video at 0:14 and at 0:24. These positions are parallel. It means that from the first time the ball touched the strings to the moment some time after the ball left the strings the racket moved forward without rotation. If the tip of the racket moved faster than the handle in that period rackets in those positions wouldnt be parallel. Maybe you believe in that rotation but video proves that you are wrong. Later there is rotation but it is long after the ball left the strings and doesnt affect the ball.

 

[mcs1970]

In #16 comment in this thread there is about horizontal and vertical acceleration.

Yet in a later thread you are again just talking about acceleration not being there. As I said you start threads that say one thing, then change the goalposts in between and then later on revert back to your initial points while pointing out that you have covered your bases by speaking through both sides of your mouth. Same thing you did with the 2hfh thread.

So in a nutshell if your only point, by using terms like 'pushing' and boasting how you hit like Federer, was that Fed doesn't use his wrist to accelerate, it's nothing radical. Pretty much everyone knows that. No pro uses their wrist to accelerate the ball. However, you're smart enough to know that most people know this. So you start a thread to grab attention while patting yourself on the back also for your tennis prowess? Nice.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Yet in a later thread you are again just talking about acceleration not being there. As I said you start threads that say one thing, then change the goalposts in between and then later on revert back to your initial points while pointing out that you have covered your bases by speaking through both sides of your mouth. Same thing you did with the 2hfh thread.

So in a nutshell if your only point, by using terms like 'pushing' and boasting how you hit like Federer, was that Fed doesn't use his wrist to accelerate, it's nothing radical. Pretty much everyone knows that. No pro uses their wrist to accelerate the ball. However, you're smart enough to know that most people know this. So you start a thread to grab attention while patting yourself on the back also for your tennis prowess? Nice.

Tell me in which comment( give us # number) I say that there is no acceleration upward. I want to answer but I want to know where I deny myself. Point 2 comments where it is the case.

 

[Dragy]

Dont repeat something what is untrue.

If you want me not address your untrue statements, resign from posting nonsense.

Now everyone knows there’s no active wrist flexing in Fed standard FH. The slowdown of the racquet face happens due to colliding the ball, hence the parallel movement you noticed in video. Also, it’s impossible to control anything precisely at contact. That’s why it’s action into and through contact which should be looked at. And it’s clear racquet tip moves faster than handle right until collision with the ball.

 

[mcs1970]

#15. As I said you say multiple things throughout the thread to give yourself some wiggle room both ways.

Once again if your brilliant discovery is that pros don't use the wrist to accelerate the ball, tap the brakes. Everyone knows that. If you want to call that 'pushing' and congratulate yourself that you hit just like Federer, that's ridiculous. If you want to see nice relaxed strokes with slow acceleration to rotate the ball, look at sureshs strokes for eg. His strokes are actually pretty good form wise but there is absolutely no pace.

If Fed's strokes came straight through without much acceleration and just used the upward angle to 'rotate' the ball, he wouldn't generate the pace he does. The lag and release even before he hits the ball has tremendous acceleration which is why the whole stroke generates pace that someone like you or I could never do. Stop looking at slo mo practice session videos and watch the games against other pros and the pace that is generated without which his opponents would have crushed back those balls.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

If you want me not address your untrue statements, resign from posting nonsense.

Now everyone knows there’s no active wrist flexing in Fed standard FH. The slowdown of the racquet face happens due to colliding the ball, hence the parallel movement you noticed in video. Also, it’s impossible to control anything precisely at contact. That’s why it’s action into and through contact which should be looked at. And it’s clear racquet tip moves faster than handle right until collision with the ball.

Could you explain why the head of the racket moves with the same speed as the handle even some time after the ball left the strings what we see in first 2 videos in this thread If there is no ball that can slow it down and as you say it is rotating around axis placed at the shoulder ?

 

[Gregory Diamond]

#15. As I said you say multiple things throughout the thread to give yourself some wiggle room both ways.

Once again if your brilliant discovery is that pros don't use the wrist to accelerate the ball, tap the brakes. Everyone knows that. If you want to call that 'pushing' and congratulate yourself that you hit just like Federer, that's ridiculous. If you want to see nice relaxed strokes with slow acceleration to rotate the ball, look at sureshs strokes for eg. His strokes are actually pretty good form wise but there is absolutely no pace.

If Fed's strokes came straight through without much acceleration and just used the upward angle to 'rotate' the ball, he wouldn't generate the pace he does. The lag and release even before he hits the ball has tremendous acceleration which is why the whole stroke generates pace that someone like you or I could never do. Stop looking at slo mo practice session videos and watch the games against other pros and the pace that is generated without which his opponents would have crushed back those balls.

If speed of the head of the racket in the first moment of contact with the ball was much greater than the handle then it would be greater during contact and after the contact. We can see that it is antrue. From the first contact and even some time after the ball left the strings head and handle move with the same speed. It is possible if just before the first contact Federer accelerated the handle. It would cause the wrist to be laid back even more and that is why the ball interacts with the whole body. Not only with accelerated head of the racket as most players believe.

 

[mcs1970]

If speed of the head of the racket in the first moment of contact with the ball was much greater than the handle then it would be greater during contact and after the contact. We can see that it is antrue. From the first contact and even some time after the ball left the strings head and handle move with the same speed. It is possible if just before the first contact Federer accelerated the handle. It would cause the wrist to be laid back even more and that is why the ball interacts with the the whole body. Not only with accelerated head of the racket as most players believe.

Who are these most players? Does anyone believe that if Fed was sitting down in a chair and swinging at a ball he'd generate the same pace? Get real. Everyone knows there is core and coiling/uncoiling of the body to generate power.

As for the speed of the racquet being greater than the handle, you are wrong. If the speed of the handle and the racquet was the same there would be very little pace and acceleration after the shot. That is basic physics even for a physics professor like you. Stop looking at slo mo practice session videos where players might be practicing some specific things to build up good habits, and freeze framing at contact and a few seconds afterwards . Every good player tries to hit the ball flush against the strings and then use the angle of the swing path to generate the type of spin they want.

As I said, if one goes by your logic, there would be very little pace generated. It would be a good practice shot with good form but would have very little bite to it. We all know from games, and not slow mo practice videos, that this is not the case.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Who are these most players? Does anyone believe that if Fed was sitting down in a chair and swinging at a ball he'd generate the same pace? Get real. Everyone knows there is core and coiling/uncoiling of the body to generate power.

As for the speed of the racquet being greater than the handle, you are wrong. If the speed of the handle and the racquet was the same there would be very little pace and acceleration after the shot. That is basic physics even for a physics professor like you. Stop looking at slo mo practice session videos where players might be practicing some specific things to build up good habits, and freeze framing at contact and a few seconds afterwards . Every good player tries to hit the ball flush against the strings and then use the angle of the swing path to generate the type of spin they want.

As I said, if one goes by your logic, there would be very little pace generated. It would be a good practice shot with good form but would have very little bite to it. We all know from games, and not slow mo practice videos, that this is not the case.

Upper body is rotating but Federer pushes the hand inside out so these two motions result in racket going forward parallel to the net.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Who are these most players? Does anyone believe that if Fed was sitting down in a chair and swinging at a ball he'd generate the same pace? Get real. Everyone knows there is core and coiling/uncoiling of the body to generate power.

As for the speed of the racquet being greater than the handle, you are wrong. If the speed of the handle and the racquet was the same there would be very little pace and acceleration after the shot. That is basic physics even for a physics professor like you. Stop looking at slo mo practice session videos where players might be practicing some specific things to build up good habits, and freeze framing at contact and a few seconds afterwards . Every good player tries to hit the ball flush against the strings and then use the angle of the swing path to generate the type of spin they want.

As I said, if one goes by your logic, there would be very little pace generated. It would be a good practice shot with good form but would have very little bite to it. We all know from games, and not slow mo practice videos, that this is not the case.

Upper body is rotating but Federer pushes the hand inside out so these two motions result in racket going forward parallel to the net.

 

[mcs1970]

Upper body is rotating but Federer pushes the hand inside out so these two motions result in racket going forward parallel to the net.

What? Anyway....looks like apart from the initial shock jock statement you are not saying anything radical. We agree on that.

As for the acceleration of the head vs handle, we'll disagree and end it at that. There would be very little pace generated if what you believe was true.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

What? Anyway....looks like apart from the initial shock jock statement you are not saying anything radical. We agree on that.

As for the acceleration of the head vs handle, we'll disagree and end it at that. There would be very little pace generated if what you believe was true.

When the ball "feels" the whole body and not only accelerated head of the racket more kinetic energy of the ball is absorbed. Then you dont need to add a lot of your energy to accelerate the ball. It is just simple physics.
The principle of conservation of momentum and kinetic energy during elastic collisions could be used.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

What? Anyway....looks like apart from the initial shock jock statement you are not saying anything radical. We agree on that.

As for the acceleration of the head vs handle, we'll disagree and end it at that. There would be very little pace generated if what you believe was true.

When the ball "feels" the whole body and not only accelerated head of the racket more kinetic energy of the ball is absorbed. Then you dont need to add a lot of your energy to accelerate the ball. It is just simple physics.
The principle of conservation of momentum and kinetic energy during elastic collisions could be used.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

What? Anyway....looks like apart from the initial shock jock statement you are not saying anything radical. We agree on that.

As for the acceleration of the head vs handle, we'll disagree and end it at that. There would be very little pace generated if what you believe was true.

When the ball "feels" the whole body and not only accelerated head of the racket more kinetic energy of the ball is absorbed. Then you dont need to add a lot of your energy to accelerate the ball. It is just simple physics.
The principle of conservation of momentum and kinetic energy during elastic collisions could be used.

 

[oserver]

Federers wrist movement is not an active one, nor is any other players or at least it shouldnt be. The wrist is loose, the only reason it looks like hes moving it after contact is because the momentum of the racket carries his wrist round, not the other way around.

But thats basic stuff.

You are right on the passiveness of the wrist. The perceived "active wrist" or "snapping the racket" is illusional by our naked eyes "because the momentum of the racket carries his wrist round".

Federer's arm was passively following the rotation of the body in acceleration before the contact point. That acceleration got de-accelerated by the contact. After that, the acceleration resumed to look like it was done by an active wrist or arm.

Is his wrist/arm 100% passive? No, the muscles can generate reflexion force if they encounter counter force (by the incoming ball). Player cannot control that consciously or sub-consciously. This does not mean he or she uses an active wrist/arm.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

There is no doubt that Federer would be much better player if he used two handed forehand.

 

[Dragy]

Could you explain why the head of the racket moves with the same speed as the handle even some time after the ball left the strings what we see in first 2 videos in this thread If there is no ball that can slow it down and as you say it is rotating around axis placed at the shoulder ?

Let's go the other way, not looking for anecdotal evidence in single video you liked. Check this (and many others - as many as you need):

Of the 5 FHs 2 are shanks. 1 has like 2 frames looking close to same orientation of stringbed. 2 FHs obviously have not a single pair of frames with similar orientation. Slowdown of the racquet head happens at collision. In some cases the combination of factors, which include swing speed and shape, as well as collision speed, result in racquet moving close to linear for couple millisecond. However, it's not typical, neither controllable. That's it.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Let's go the other way, not looking for anecdotal evidence in single video you liked. Check this (and many others - as many as you need):

Of the 5 FHs 2 are shanks. 1 has like 2 frames looking close to same orientation of stringbed. 2 FHs obviously have not a single pair of frames with similar orientation. Slowdown of the racquet head happens at collision. In some cases the combination of factors, which include swing speed and shape, as well as collision speed, result in racquet moving close to linear for couple millisecond. However, it's not typical, neither controllable. That's it.

I slowed down this video 4 times and at 0:9 we can see exactly what we see in my videos. From the moment the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment some time after the ball left the strings head and the handle move with the same speed in horizontal and in vertical direction. All what happens next does not affect the ball.

 

[Dragy]

I slowed down this video 4 times and at 0:9 we can see exactly what we see in my videos. From the moment the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment some time after the ball left the strings head and the handle move with the same speed in horizontal and in vertical direction. All what happens next does not affect the ball.

I went frame-by-frame, and no, every next frame has different angle of stringbed.

Add: I know wishful thinking, is this wishful watching?

 

[oserver]

In some cases the combination of factors, which include swing speed and shape, as well as collision speed, result in racquet moving close to linear for couple millisecond. However, it's not typical, neither controllable. That's it.

I like your reasoning above. Our muscles respond to the collision in the same way in tennis as in other activities. The reflection reactions have been built up in our nerve system for million of years. The tennis training cannot change that easily. Because the path of the incoming ball is totally linear, the response will be linear too, but just for a very brief time, like you said. And the response is just a reflective response, not controllable.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I went frame-by-frame, and no, every next frame has different angle of stringbed.

Add: I know wishful thinking, is this wishful watching?

Slow it down as I did and stop video when there is the first contact and watch next picture when the ball left the strings and is in the distance equal to the length of the forearm from the racket. You can see exactly what I said. The speed of the head after this moment compared to the speed of the handle increases but to that moment they are the same in both directions.

 

[Dragy]

Slow it down as I did and stop video when there is the first contact and watch next picture when the ball left the strings and is in the distance equal to the length of the forearm from the racket. You can see exactly what I said. The speed of the head after this moment compared to the speed of the handle increases but to that moment they are the same in both directions.

Once again, Youtube allows you going frame-by-frame. It's visible that every next frame has different stringbed orientation. You just cannot not see that, which brings me to the conclusion you're intentionally trolling. Which is boring by now.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Once again, Youtube allows you going frame-by-frame. It's visible that every next frame has different stringbed orientation. You just cannot not see that, which brings me to the conclusion you're intentionally trolling. Which is boring by now.

I talk about 0:09. Did you watch frame when there is first contact ? We almost dont see the strings because the strings are parallel to the net. The same is when the ball left the strings and is at the distance equal to the length of forearm from the racket. If I find out how to do it I`ll try to copy this pictures in this thread. Now I tried to stop the video in this two moments without slowing it down and I couldnt get these two positions. I use old version of Youtube (Html) where you can slow down video maximally 4 times.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I talk about 0:09. Did you watch frame when there is first contact ? We almost dont see the strings because the strings are parallel to the net. The same is when the ball left the strings and is at the distance equal to the length of forearm from the racket. If I find out how to do it I`ll try to copy this pictures in this thread. Now I tried to stop the video in this two moments without slowing it down and I couldnt get these two positions. I use old version of Youtube (Html) where you can slow down video maximally 4 times.

I have these two pictures in my computer. Do you know how I can copy them here ?

 

[JohnYandell]

Question:

Even if some of you guys have some of this right, do you think it is important in learning to or hitting a good forehand?

 

[oserver]

Having filmed a few thousand forehands at lower levels--besides a few thousand pro forehands--the average player at least initially should focus on keeping the wrist laid back well out into the followthrough. If you try to keep it completely loose you won't get the pro effect and you will lose control of many many forehands.

The looseness of the wrist or arm largely depend on two factors, one is in sport form category, another is in technique category.

The form part is the wrist state at contact. The most looseness one can achieve is when the wrist is at full extension state. Out of that, you have to grip the handle harder and harder. So the flexing of the wrist leads you to a tightened grip; this is unavoidable. Sampras and Agassi do some flexing of wrist so their grip of the handle has to be tighter than that of Federer's. No measurement is needed to prove this. This is a generation gap. The fully loosened wrist can only happen when the wrist is in a full extension state, to the point you feel the danger of loosing the grip (or holding) of the racket.

The technique part is related to training. Federer has been trained to use the cross body swing to the fullest. His arm is passively lag the angular motion of body; the arm doesn't speed up the lead the forward swing before the contact point. In his ideal forehand shots, the handle part of his racket is often in front of the racket head. For older generation of players, the flexing of the wrist often leads the racket head in front of the handle, or parallel to the handle. This is because the "hit through the ball" training. Since the ball has a linear path, the racket head tend to alter the forward swing curve to go linear briefly before and at contact point. This create an 'arm lead body' effect. Whenever a player tries to use arm to increase the racket head speed, one has to grip the handle harder. Training can change this somewhat but cannot over rule the biomechanical principles.

Federer's training allow him to have a fully relaxed wrist and arm, and very loose wrist as far as the full extension state of the wrist allows (in the forward swing). I will not use "completely loose" to describe it. One has to hold the racket in the air so there cannot be a complete looseness. This is my two cents.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

If you dont see the angle difference between full lag and at point of contact ur as blind as a bat, thats all im going to say.

Bats have echo-location, though.

 

[JohnYandell]

Oserver,

Biomechanically research refutes your post above. You are speculating, guessing. Did you read my post on Brian Gordon's actual quantitative research?

In addition high speed video of dozens of actual match play forehands shows that on the overwhelming majority Fed's wrist is laid back to some degree or a great degree before, during and after contact.

And the second question: really does any of this have to do with actually hitting forehands?