Federer-the greatest pusher of all time !!!

[oserver]

Oserver,

Biomechanically research refutes your post above. You are speculating, guessing. Did you read my post on Brian Gordon's actual quantitative research?

In addition high speed video of dozens of actual match play forehands shows that on the overwhelming majority Fed's wrist is laid back to some degree or a great degree before, during and after contact.

And the second question: really does any of this have to do with actually hitting forehands?

I consider "Oscar Wegner's Modern Tennis Methodology" the utmost authority on modern tennis forehand. He is both a great player and great coach. I think the source of Federer's forehand most likely to be from his teaching. He essentially single handed changed the pre-modern forehand to the modern forehand as it is now.

https://oscarwegner.wordpress.com/2014/06/28/evolution-in-tennis-instruction/

Extending your arm out, either sitting or standing, do an extreme pronation then an extreme supination. The difference is more than 270 degree for me; maybe more for young guys like you.

Now, do you think the 270 degree cannot override the 90 degree difference between a vertical and horizontal arm?

Above was my reply to a poster regarding the application of forehand forms and techniques to serve. That is to say that a shot is overhead or non-overhead doesn't matter, since out wrist, elbow and shoulder joints are very flexible.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

So how can I send pictures here ?

 

[JohnYandell]

oserver,

If you fall for that claim (fake news) really there is nothing more for us to discuss.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

a

 

[Gregory Diamond]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzaCYVNInrsmFXsFc
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzaQ8Y4Q-1MOlYELo

You can see the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time. And the moment when the ball already left the strings. It is exactly as I said.

 

[Dragy]

Question:

Even if some of you guys have some of this right, do you think it is important in learning to or hitting a good forehand?

Well, while it’s fun to look into those milliseconds, videos confirm it can look this way or that way between strokes. We actually (but Gregory and oserver) agree it’s not controllable around contact, and considering stroke mechanics we should look at bigger part of swing and longer time interval. That’s actually why I referred you - to give Gregory some clear information which may resonate with his idea, but be closer to life application than his “pushing during contact”.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzaCYVNInrsmFXsFc
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzaQ8Y4Q-1MOlYELo

You can see the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time. And the moment when the ball already left the strings. It is exactly as I said.

I clearly see different angle between the pictures, stringed seen on first and not seen on second. Please stop right here.

PS. Since bringing in Oscar as a single person to construct modern FH and make Fed hit one, we got now to outer space...

 

[JohnYandell]

Outer space is right

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Well, while it’s fun to look into those milliseconds, videos confirm it can look this way or that way between strokes. We actually (but Gregory and oserver) agree it’s not controllable around contact, and considering stroke mechanics we should look at bigger part of swing and longer time interval. That’s actually why I referred you - to give Gregory some clear information which may resonate with his idea, but be closer to life application than his “pushing during contact”.

I clearly see different angle between the pictures, stringed seen on first and not seen on second. Please stop right here.

PS. Since bringing in Oscar as a single person to construct modern FH and make Fed hit one, we got now to outer space...

There is only minimal difference. This difference is caused by some vertical movement. Angle between arm and racket doesnt change. Federer is pushing the handle forward. His muscles of forearm are tense. And you should remember that in the second picture the ball is not on the strings for some time.

 

[oserver]

oserver,

If you fall for that claim (fake news) really there is nothing more for us to discuss.

Which news are you referring to?

 

[Dragy]

There is only minimal difference. This difference is caused by some vertical movement. Angle between arm and racket doesnt change. Federer is pushing the handle forward. His muscles of forearm are tense. And you should remember that in the second picture the ball is not on the strings for some time.

No, you just interpret it wrong.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

No, you just interpret it wrong.

In these photos you can see it even better because the ball after contact is still near the racket.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzagL2yRP-RBRLN-0
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLza_7J1D4STUjGt-Q

The same velocity of the hand and the head of the racket in horizontal and in vertical direction.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzagL2yRP-RBRLN-0
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLza_7J1D4STUjGt-Q

That is what happens during the stroke. Velocity of the hand and the head of the racket is the same in horizontal and in vertical direction. Federer pushes the handle forward and up with the wrist laid back in both directions. Horizontal and vertical rotation of the racket happens later and doesnt affect the ball. There is no loosenes in his forearm. We can see tense muscles. Everything what was said about his forehand was wrong.

 

[FiReFTW]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...ation-and-forearm-pronation-at-dwell-time.gif

Contact point showing ISR and Pronation at contact clearly showing vertical and horizontal racquet movement aka snap with a loose grip and relaxed fluid throwing swing.

OP should stop trolling this forum with his obvious and poor trolling atempts.

/thread

 

[Gregory Diamond]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...ation-and-forearm-pronation-at-dwell-time.gif

Contact point showing ISR and Pronation at contact clearly showing vertical and horizontal racquet movement aka snap with a loose grip and relaxed fluid throwing swing.

OP should stop trolling this forum with his obvious and poor trolling atempts.

/thread

In your video there is exactly the same. From the moment the ball touches the strings hand and the head of the racket move with the same speed in vertical and horizontal direction. Before the stroke and some time after the stroke head of the racket moves faster than the hand but as we see it changes during the stroke when the ball touches the strings. My pictures show it perfectly. Do you want to say that in my pictures head of the racket moves faster than the hand in horizontal or in vertical direction ? Maybe you are blind.

 

[styksnstryngs]

Maybe you are blind.

Reported for racism, this offends me as an asian.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Reported for racism, this offends me as an asian.

We all know that you cant answer on my last question because it is obvious that in the period displayed in my pictures the hand and the head of the racket move with the same speed in horizontal direction and the same we can say about vertical direction. Everybody can measure the distance. It is hand that accelereates forward and up and the head is just lagging behind because the wrist is laid back in vertical and horizontal direction. The ball "feels" the whole body and not only accelerated head of the racket.

 

[Dou]

it's only solved if you can hit the same ball.

 

[Chas Tennis]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLzagL2yRP-RBRLN-0
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkxJlVeBNQLza_7J1D4STUjGt-Q

That is what happens during the stroke. Velocity of the hand and the head of the racket is the same in horizontal and in vertical direction. Federer pushes the handle forward and up with the wrist laid back in both directions. Horizontal and vertical rotation of the racket happens later and doesnt affect the ball. There is no loosenes in his forearm. We can see tense muscles. Everything what was said about his forehand was wrong.

Interesting comments but I don't 'sign up' to view videos.

The mass of the ball is not insignificant compared to the mass of the racket head. Say racket with strings weighs 11 oz. Say the head weights 7 oz. Ball weight 2 oz.

Ratio of ball mass to racket head mass 2/7.

The ball has momentum change of V2-V1 X m. where V2 is final ball speed and V1 is initial ball speed. (The signs of V are different for the incoming and outgoing ball.)

The racket head should slow down during impact. And it should be observable.

It takes careful measurements to see if there is something new.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Interesting comments but I don't 'sign up' to view videos.

The mass of the ball is not insignificant compared to the mass of the racket head. Say racket with strings weighs 11 oz. Say the head weights 7 oz. Ball weight 2 oz.

Ratio of ball mass to racket head mass 2/7.

The ball has momentum change of V2-V1 X m. where V2 is final ball speed and V1 is initial ball speed. (The signs of V are different for the incoming and outgoing ball.)

The racket head should slow down during impact. And it should be observable.

It takes careful measurements to see if there is something new.

You can see in the first two vidoes in my other thread "Federer-the greatest pusher of all time !!!" that the head really slows down but if the head moved much faster than the handle just before the stroke then instantly after the ball left the strings the head would move faster than the handle but it doesnt happen. It doesnt happen because just before the contact Federer accelerates the handle. The head is lagging behind what causes that the wrist is laid back. Most people think that lag and snap means that the player accelerates the head and it does all the work without the help of the player. We hear about loose wrist. It is loose after the ball left the strings.

 

[Dou]

You can see in the first two vidoes in my other thread "Federer-the greatest pusher of all time !!!" that the head really slows down but if the head moved much faster than the handle just before the stroke then instantly after the ball left the strings the head would move faster than the handle but it doesnt happen. It doesnt happen because just before the contact Federer accelerates the handle. The head is lagging behind what causes that the wrist is laid back. Most people think that lag and snap means that the player accelerates the head and it does all the work without the help of the player. We hear about loose wrist. It is loose after the ball left the strings.

no.

you just need to experience the difference between hitting with acceleration (speeding up the handle), vs. with release (no speeding up the handle).... once you have this experience, you'd never write the above.

 

[watungga]

I'm afraid the OP is right about what he's saying here.
Power is achieved NOT by release. Many club players injured their wrist due to this Federer phenomena.
The release is initiated after the feel of the ball.

 

[Dou]

I'm afraid the OP is right about what he's saying here.
Power is achieved NOT by release. Many club players injured their wrist due to this Federer phenomena.
The release is initiated after the feel of the ball.

incorrect.

the fh can be compared to 'throwing the racket at the ball'. taken literally, this would mean at impact the hand is no longer on the handle...

if you release after the hit, you are leaving a lot of speed on the table. and it's easier to get injured if you are still pulling the handle when the impact happens.

most amateurs have this problem.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

incorrect.

the fh can be compared to 'throwing the racket at the ball'. taken literally, this would mean at impact the hand is no longer on the handle...

if you release after the hit, you are leaving a lot of speed on the table. and it's easier to get injured if you are still pulling the handle when the impact happens.

most amateurs have this problem.

In Federer`s forehand the right wrist is laid back before the collision, during collision and some time after collision. You can see it on the pictures at the beginning of this thread. There is no throwing the racket.

 

[jch]

In Federer`s forehand the right wrist is laid back before the collision, during collision and some time after collision. You can see it on the pictures at the beginning of this thread. There is no throwing the racket.

Your analyzes are so naive and fundamentally wrong that talking to you is a waste of time. Have you discovered the magic formula of Federer's forehand? Show the movie where you perform this forehand. It's so simple.

 

[Dou]

In Federer`s forehand the right wrist is laid back before the collision, during collision and some time after collision. You can see it on the pictures at the beginning of this thread. There is no throwing the racket.

1 fh doesn't make a case... there are both throwing and pushing elements in a fh.. and in most shots the throwing is the bigger element, otherwise you can't generate much power... in your video Fed may just be hitting a more 'pushy' shot in emergency.

just go out and hit some balls... stop the 'throwing' part 2-3 feet before the racket head meets the ball, and let the release begin.. let the hand and racket relax and coast into the impact.. you will see a significant increase in power.

also have your friend observe your shots... he will comment that your fh now looks more 'professional'... otherwise if you keep pulling/pushing thru the impact, you'd look like every other hack on the public court lol... the shot looks late, crowded, powerless, amateurish.

from physics stand point, in order to generate power the racket has to fly by itself at impact... the arm is 20 lbs and is too heavy to move fast... you might feel very 'strong' because your hand feels all the impact... but in tennis 'strong' is bad.. 'fast' is good!

 

[Gregory Diamond]

1 fh doesn't make a case... there are both throwing and pushing elements in a fh.. and in most shots the throwing is the bigger element, otherwise you can't generate much power... in your video Fed may just be hitting a more 'pushy' shot in emergency.

just go out and hit some balls... stop the 'throwing' part 2-3 feet before the racket head meets the ball, and let the release begin.. let the hand and racket relax and coast into the impact.. you will see a significant increase in power.

also have your friend observe your shots... he will comment that your fh now looks more 'professional'... otherwise if you keep pulling/pushing thru the impact, you'd look like every other hack on the public court lol... the shot looks late, crowded, powerless, amateurish.

from physics stand point, in order to generate power the racket has to fly by itself at impact... the arm is 20 lbs and is too heavy to move fast... you might feel very 'strong' because your hand feels all the impact... but in tennis 'strong' is bad.. 'fast' is good!

In this video it is obvious that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment some time after the ball left the strings the hand and the head of the racket move with the same horizontal velocity. There is no throwing. There is just fast pushing. We can see releasing but it is long after the ball left the racket and it doesnt affect the ball.
It is true that there are players who throw the racket at the ball but they can be only average.

 

[Dou]

so in terms of Federer's fh mystery - there is no mystery... he is just more gifted than anyone else that he can maintain the biggest element of 'throwing' in his forehands, facing these incoming ATP balls with massive spin and speed... he keeps his head still, eyes on the contact point, and have that hand eye coordination to remain relaxed and balanced and no need to add more 'push' into the shot to be stiff.

so OP - your discovery is the exact opposite of the truth lol.

 

[Dou]

In this video it is obvious that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment some time after the ball left the strings the hand and the head of the racket move with the same horizontal velocity. There is no throwing. There is just fast pushing. We can see releasing but it is long after the ball left the racket and it doesnt affect the ball.
It is true that there are players who throw the racket at the ball but they can be only average.

at the end of the day the rubber has to meet the road right

if you have discovered the mystery then you should be able to reproduce it on the court, limited to your physical ability of course.

try my method, and try your 'discover', and come back report to us if you see any differences

better yet, film both methods and we can see.

'accelerate thru the ball' is a major problem among amateurs... it sounds so good on paper, except it doesn't work lol.

 

[Dou]

In this video it is obvious that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment some time after the ball left the strings the hand and the head of the racket move with the same horizontal velocity. There is no throwing. There is just fast pushing. We can see releasing but it is long after the ball left the racket and it doesnt affect the ball.
It is true that there are players who throw the racket at the ball but they can be only average.

I may have found the reason why you were mislead into your 'discovery'... the videos you are looking at are his service returns, which makes sense that he'd need to 'push' the shots for more control, as there is little need to generate pace.. the incoming ball already has pace... you can tell these are serve returns as the left arm didn't get chance to fold away yet.

watch any Federer hitting videos, match or practice, for a few minutes... his regular rally fhs would see the left arm folding away at impact so the right side can come thru... if you analyse these shots, you will certainly see some release.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

at the end of the day the rubber has to meet the road right

if you have discovered the mystery then you should be able to reproduce it on the court, limited to your physical ability of course.

try my method, and try your 'discover', and come back report to us if you see any differences

better yet, film both methods and we can see.

'accelerate thru the ball' is a major problem among amateurs... it sounds so good on paper, except it doesn't work lol.

I use two handed forehand. It is much better than one handed. You can see in my other threads about two handed forehand. From the beginning of May I have won 6 tournaments and 2 times lost in the final. I just played with many players who throw the racket at the ball. It is not because I am that good. I lost in the final of National Championships in my age category last year.

 

[travlerajm]

I think the OP is more correct in his analysis and more knowledgeable than most folks on this forum would like to believe.

 

[Dou]

I use two handed forehand. It is much better than one handed. You can see in my other threads about two handed forehand. From the beginning of May I have won 6 tournaments and 2 times lost in the final. I just played with many players who throw the racket at the ball. It is not because I am that good. I lost in the final of National Championships in my age category last year.

congrats on your results...

but that's off topic

 

[Chas Tennis]

In this video it is obvious that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment some time after the ball left the strings the hand and the head of the racket move with the same horizontal velocity. There is no throwing. There is just fast pushing. We can see releasing but it is long after the ball left the racket and it doesnt affect the ball.
It is true that there are players who throw the racket at the ball but they can be only average.

The video that you posted was created by Anatoly Antipin who had posted here until a few years ago under the forum name of Toly. His composite videos were very informative.

I don't know anything specific about any particular video and maybe some even had times scales. But Toly had to work on each frame in the video using layering to show multi-positions of tennis strokes. I believe that for some composite pictures he would use all frames but on others he might leave frames or parts of frames out (2 heads but 10 racket frames). The forehand composite pictures shown probably had all frames.? But for this thread, it might be good to double check to see that all frames are included or, for example, was every frame shown or every 3rd frame? Maybe for the discussion and these videos it does not matter.?

Some of the Toly videos may be on forum threads and posts. Toly would use a program, maybe from Tennis Warehouse website, to apply velocities to videos. Also, he sometimes would apply frame counts. I have always thought that there were large inaccuracies when applying velocities whenever the object approached or went way from the camera. OK if the object stays near the same distance from the camera as in the Federer videos. He showed many similar strokes to the Federer forehand videos.

 

[Chas Tennis]

2013 Toly post on the forehand. Click on arrow to go to thread with many posts and on topic pictures.

The picture below demonstrates contact of Federer forehand from real match.

See also video

.

This is a match. The first OP video looked like practice. First hits of a practice?

Toly was interested in this and did some fine work.

So what actually are the hand and racket forward velocities of Federer's forehand drive? And what is the significance?

 

[Dou]

lol - can you guys please pick up a racket and just hit a few... you will see what I meant by rubber hitting the road

 

[FiReFTW]

I think the OP is more correct in his analysis and more knowledgeable than most folks on this forum would like to believe.

No he is not, hes a troll and his horrible thread should be closed off.

Everyone that has any sort of knowledge of biomechanics knows that a modern tennis stroke is hit with ur full body kinetic chain, the OP is essentially claiming you don't, since he claims ur holding ur wrist back deliberately which means ur preventing the kinetic chain that traveled from ur legs up your whole body to be released into the ball in the last part of the chain which is releasing of the energy into the racquet.

Its clear from slow motion footage that this is what happens because in the majority of forehands that are struck in match play and under normal circumstances are hit this way, where the racquet in the LAG laid back position has a much smaller angle between the racquet and arm compared to when the ball is HIT at contact, because the kinetic chain that was gathered from the body was released into the racquet and then the racquet released it into the ball at contact.

If the racquet would not release then look at where it would be at contact (green line), the ball would go way out, his arm would basically need to be almost straight forward at contact for the ball to go straight (2nd green line) , so how is he supposed to hit crosscourt with this theory?? his arm would have to be crossed to the left infront of his body for him to hit crosscourt, how ridicilous is that? Seriously??

No pro hits like this, ideally at contact the arm should be out and away from the body, at a 45 degree angle ideally which is the case in most pro strokes.

And basically the whole premise that the racquet doesn't get thrown into the ball from the OP is because the racquet AFTER contact stays at about the same angle as AT contact for a split second, which is ludicrous, because it DOESN'T MATTER what the racquet does after the ball left, the fact is the racquet LAGS and then gets RELEASED into the contact with the ball, it keeps getting released ALL THE WAY till contact and all that energy is released into the ball, what the racquet does AFTER contact doesn't matter at all, and the reason it stops releasing is because of the IMPACT with the ball, not because federer GRIPS his racquet tight lol, if he did that the racquet would not flip like he does on this upper picture, it flips because the ball is hit slightly above center and he is holding it LOOSE.

He is also showing video of the most extreme cases of the least racquet release which are return of serve, some joke practice hits and down the line shots, which is very "smart" of him but very deceiving, tho even in those videos you clearly see the racquet release.

In this video you can see the racquet loosely fluidly being released as the kinetic chain reaches it.
0:24 1:46 you can clearly see racquet flipping from an extremely loose grip at contact, this is impossible if infact Federer pushed the ball and held the grip tight at contact as the OP ridicilously claims

3:12 and some hits around there, look how away federer's arm is from his body, and how much racquet released because he is hitting CROSSCOURT.

If he held his wrist back like the OP claims, the ball would not even go down the line but 10 feet outside the court

You basically have to be BLIND not to see this.

Now im sure the OP will quote this post and again claim the same thing he has been claiming to every single post before that proved his ludicrous theory wrong, im not even going to bother replying anymore, because its so ignorant that its ridicilous.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

No he is not, hes a troll and his horrible thread should be closed off.

Everyone that has any sort of knowledge of biomechanics knows that a modern tennis stroke is hit with ur full body kinetic chain, the OP is essentially claiming you don't, since he claims ur holding ur wrist back deliberately which means ur preventing the kinetic chain that traveled from ur legs up your whole body to be released into the ball in the last part of the chain which is releasing of the energy into the racquet.

Its clear from slow motion footage that this is what happens because in the majority of forehands that are struck in match play and under normal circumstances are hit this way, where the racquet in the LAG laid back position has a much smaller angle between the racquet and arm compared to when the ball is HIT at contact, because the kinetic chain that was gathered from the body was released into the racquet and then the racquet released it into the ball at contact.

If the racquet would not release then look at where it would be at contact (green line), the ball would go way out, his arm would basically need to be almost straight forward at contact for the ball to go straight (2nd green line) , so how is he supposed to hit crosscourt with this theory?? his arm would have to be crossed to the left infront of his body for him to hit crosscourt, how ridicilous is that? Seriously??

No pro hits like this, ideally at contact the arm should be out and away from the body, at a 45 degree angle ideally which is the case in most pro strokes.

And basically the whole premise that the racquet doesn't get thrown into the ball from the OP is because the racquet AFTER contact stays at about the same angle as AT contact for a split second, which is ludicrous, because it DOESN'T MATTER what the racquet does after the ball left, the fact is the racquet LAGS and then gets RELEASED into the contact with the ball, it keeps getting released ALL THE WAY till contact and all that energy is released into the ball, what the racquet does AFTER contact doesn't matter at all, and the reason it stops releasing is because of the IMPACT with the ball, not because federer GRIPS his racquet tight lol, if he did that the racquet would not flip like he does on this upper picture, it flips because the ball is hit slightly above center and he is holding it LOOSE.

He is also showing video of the most extreme cases of the least racquet release which are return of serve, some joke practice hits and down the line shots, which is very "smart" of him but very deceiving, tho even in those videos you clearly see the racquet release.

In this video you can see the racquet loosely fluidly being released as the kinetic chain reaches it.
0:24 1:46 you can clearly see racquet flipping from an extremely loose grip at contact, this is impossible if infact Federer pushed the ball and held the grip tight at contact as the OP ridicilously claims

3:12 and some hits around there, look how away federer's arm is from his body, and how much racquet released because he is hitting CROSSCOURT.

If he held his wrist back like the OP claims, the ball would not even go down the line but 10 feet outside the court

You basically have to be BLIND not to see this.

Now im sure the OP will quote this post and again claim the same thing he has been claiming to every single post before that proved his ludicrous theory wrong, im not even going to bother replying anymore, because its so ignorant that its ridicilous.

In the first picture the racket for the moment is laid back maximally because in this position the velocity of the hand is much greater than the head. The hand moved forward and the head began to lag behind. Later this angle between the racket and forearm is greater but the hand is still laid back. Even some time after the ball left the strings( what we see in third picture)the hand is still laid back. If there was releasing before the stroke this angle would be greater than during the stroke(when the ball touches the strings). We see that in the third picture this angle is smaller than in the second because Federer accelerated the hand. If you try to say that the racket is accelerated to the maximum speed just before the collision and there is no pushing during collision(the racket moves only because of its inertia ) then during the collision the head of the racket would lose some speed but it still would be much greater than the speed of the hand .The head would go in front what we see doesnt happen. The harder Federer would hit the ball the further the racket would go in front after collision.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

No he is not, hes a troll and his horrible thread should be closed off.

Everyone that has any sort of knowledge of biomechanics knows that a modern tennis stroke is hit with ur full body kinetic chain, the OP is essentially claiming you don't, since he claims ur holding ur wrist back deliberately which means ur preventing the kinetic chain that traveled from ur legs up your whole body to be released into the ball in the last part of the chain which is releasing of the energy into the racquet.

Its clear from slow motion footage that this is what happens because in the majority of forehands that are struck in match play and under normal circumstances are hit this way, where the racquet in the LAG laid back position has a much smaller angle between the racquet and arm compared to when the ball is HIT at contact, because the kinetic chain that was gathered from the body was released into the racquet and then the racquet released it into the ball at contact.

If the racquet would not release then look at where it would be at contact (green line), the ball would go way out, his arm would basically need to be almost straight forward at contact for the ball to go straight (2nd green line) , so how is he supposed to hit crosscourt with this theory?? his arm would have to be crossed to the left infront of his body for him to hit crosscourt, how ridicilous is that? Seriously??

No pro hits like this, ideally at contact the arm should be out and away from the body, at a 45 degree angle ideally which is the case in most pro strokes.

And basically the whole premise that the racquet doesn't get thrown into the ball from the OP is because the racquet AFTER contact stays at about the same angle as AT contact for a split second, which is ludicrous, because it DOESN'T MATTER what the racquet does after the ball left, the fact is the racquet LAGS and then gets RELEASED into the contact with the ball, it keeps getting released ALL THE WAY till contact and all that energy is released into the ball, what the racquet does AFTER contact doesn't matter at all, and the reason it stops releasing is because of the IMPACT with the ball, not because federer GRIPS his racquet tight lol, if he did that the racquet would not flip like he does on this upper picture, it flips because the ball is hit slightly above center and he is holding it LOOSE.

He is also showing video of the most extreme cases of the least racquet release which are return of serve, some joke practice hits and down the line shots, which is very "smart" of him but very deceiving, tho even in those videos you clearly see the racquet release.

In this video you can see the racquet loosely fluidly being released as the kinetic chain reaches it.
0:24 1:46 you can clearly see racquet flipping from an extremely loose grip at contact, this is impossible if infact Federer pushed the ball and held the grip tight at contact as the OP ridicilously claims

3:12 and some hits around there, look how away federer's arm is from his body, and how much racquet released because he is hitting CROSSCOURT.

If he held his wrist back like the OP claims, the ball would not even go down the line but 10 feet outside the court

You basically have to be BLIND not to see this.

Now im sure the OP will quote this post and again claim the same thing he has been claiming to every single post before that proved his ludicrous theory wrong, im not even going to bother replying anymore, because its so ignorant that its ridicilous.

In the second video in all strokes we can see what I said. It is obvious at 0:52-058. It was the winner so the ball was hit very hard and the racket was lagging behind the hand throughout the stroke. If it was released before the stroke then it would go in front the hand. Collision wouldnt decrease horizontal speed of the racket to the speed of the hand. It still would be greater but is not.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

No he is not, hes a troll and his horrible thread should be closed off.

Everyone that has any sort of knowledge of biomechanics knows that a modern tennis stroke is hit with ur full body kinetic chain, the OP is essentially claiming you don't, since he claims ur holding ur wrist back deliberately which means ur preventing the kinetic chain that traveled from ur legs up your whole body to be released into the ball in the last part of the chain which is releasing of the energy into the racquet.

Its clear from slow motion footage that this is what happens because in the majority of forehands that are struck in match play and under normal circumstances are hit this way, where the racquet in the LAG laid back position has a much smaller angle between the racquet and arm compared to when the ball is HIT at contact, because the kinetic chain that was gathered from the body was released into the racquet and then the racquet released it into the ball at contact.

If the racquet would not release then look at where it would be at contact (green line), the ball would go way out, his arm would basically need to be almost straight forward at contact for the ball to go straight (2nd green line) , so how is he supposed to hit crosscourt with this theory?? his arm would have to be crossed to the left infront of his body for him to hit crosscourt, how ridicilous is that? Seriously??

No pro hits like this, ideally at contact the arm should be out and away from the body, at a 45 degree angle ideally which is the case in most pro strokes.

And basically the whole premise that the racquet doesn't get thrown into the ball from the OP is because the racquet AFTER contact stays at about the same angle as AT contact for a split second, which is ludicrous, because it DOESN'T MATTER what the racquet does after the ball left, the fact is the racquet LAGS and then gets RELEASED into the contact with the ball, it keeps getting released ALL THE WAY till contact and all that energy is released into the ball, what the racquet does AFTER contact doesn't matter at all, and the reason it stops releasing is because of the IMPACT with the ball, not because federer GRIPS his racquet tight lol, if he did that the racquet would not flip like he does on this upper picture, it flips because the ball is hit slightly above center and he is holding it LOOSE.

He is also showing video of the most extreme cases of the least racquet release which are return of serve, some joke practice hits and down the line shots, which is very "smart" of him but very deceiving, tho even in those videos you clearly see the racquet release.

In this video you can see the racquet loosely fluidly being released as the kinetic chain reaches it.
0:24 1:46 you can clearly see racquet flipping from an extremely loose grip at contact, this is impossible if infact Federer pushed the ball and held the grip tight at contact as the OP ridicilously claims

3:12 and some hits around there, look how away federer's arm is from his body, and how much racquet released because he is hitting CROSSCOURT.

If he held his wrist back like the OP claims, the ball would not even go down the line but 10 feet outside the court

You basically have to be BLIND not to see this.

Now im sure the OP will quote this post and again claim the same thing he has been claiming to every single post before that proved his ludicrous theory wrong, im not even going to bother replying anymore, because its so ignorant that its ridicilous.

In the last picture strings are parallel to the net so I dont understand why you think that the ball should go in the direction marked on this picture.

 

[FiReFTW]

In the first picture the racket for the moment is laid back maximally because in this position the velocity of the hand is much greater than the head. The hand moved forward and the head began to lag behind. Later this angle between the racket and forearm is greater but the hand is still laid back.

If the angle is greater it means racquet is being released into the ball or thrown into the ball, if it would not and Federer would at the point of maximum lag try to push the racquet into the ball, then he would have to hold that angle and basically push the arm through the ball, so the racquet to arm angle would be the same at contact than at maximum lag of the racquet, but it is not, because the prestreched muscles at maximum lag snap back like a spring accelerating the racquet forward into contact, the different angle at contact than at maximum lag clearly shows that.

If there was releasing before the stroke this angle would be greater than during the stroke(when the ball touches the strings). We see that in the third picture this angle is smaller than in the second because Federer accelerated the hand. If you try to say that the racket is accelerated to the maximum speed just before the collision and there is no pushing during collision(the racket moves only because of its inertia ) then during the collision the head of the racket would lose some speed but it still would be much greater than the speed of the hand .The head would go in front what we see doesnt happen. The harder Federer would hit the ball the further the racket would go in front after collision.

Wrong.

Your "imaginary" scenario of racquet head getting thrown forward and around would only happen in such an extreme way if 2 things were present:

1.Swingpath would be almost completely horizontal and forward
2.The arm would completely stop its forward acceleration, which would then make the racquet head fly forward and around like you describe, but the arm does not stop its speed, its swing speed stays the same at contact, only the racquet gets slown down from impact

Here is the reality of what happens:

The swingpath is very vertical in all modern strokes, hence alot of the release happens on a vertical plane (or pronation and internal rotation), and a bit less happens on a horizontal plane, but it still does.

1.Racquet set in unit turn position ready to swing forward
2.Push with legs off ground and kinetic chain traveling from ground up
3.As the whole body rotates forward, the racquet because of its weight gets left behind and starts to LAG
4.As the racquet LAGS more and more the muscles in the arm specially shoulder and forearm start to get stretched and pulled on
5.As the muscles get stretched to their maximum point and the racquet LAGS to the maximum point, the muscles SNAP back like a spring or a whip
6.The racquet gets released into the ball, but since the stroke is more on a vertical plane from low to high the majority of the release happens vertically (pronation and internal shoulder rotation), while some happens horizontal aswell, how much of which happen depends how low to high the swingpath is, but BOTH clearly happen as the racquet gets swung into the ball, it can clearly be seen by angle differences and also racquet tip differences low to high
7.The racquet tip at this point has a higher speed than the arm, thats why at LAG position the angle is smaller, while AT CONTACT the angle is bigger, because the racquet tip at this point accelerates to the point of traveling faster than the arm
8.As contact is made, the impact of the racquet hitting the ball slows down the racquet speed, and alot of the energy is transfered to the ball
9.At this point the arm is still swinging FORWARD at the same speed, the speed of the swing never SLOWS down at any point, but since the ball now impacted the racquet, it DOES slow down the racquet speed, so at this point the arm is traveling at the same or perhaps faster speed than the racquet for a split moment, which makes it seem like it was intentional, but it can't in any way be intentional, it happens as a result of impact, and since the arm keeps the same speed the end result is obvious


There is no PUSH forward with the arm at ANY POINT DURING the swing, thats completely ludicrous, the arm is swung at maximum acceleration forward and at no point does any of this change, the only thing that changes is the racquet speed which gets accelerated past the arm speed when muscles release the racquet into the ball, and then slown down to the speed of arm or slower AT impact from the collision with the ball, period.
Anyone claiming otherwise is quite frankly ignorant and can't comprehend basic things, such as that theres no way that the racquet FLIPS at contact if the person would actually be pushing the handle and gripping it tightly, it can only happen if u grip it loose and throw the racquet in the ball.

 

[FiReFTW]

In the last picture strings are parallel to the net so I dont understand why you think that the ball should go in the direction marked on this picture.

It would go in that direction if the racquet would not get released into the ball and maintained the same LAG angle throughout the swing.

 

[jch]

Here is the reality of what happens:

The swingpath is very vertical in all modern strokes, hence alot of the release happens on a vertical plane (or pronation and internal rotation), and a bit less happens on a horizontal plane, but it still does.

1.Racquet set in unit turn position ready to swing forward
2.Push with legs off ground and kinetic chain traveling from ground up
3.As the whole body rotates forward, the racquet because of its weight gets left behind and starts to LAG
4.As the racquet LAGS more and more the muscles in the arm specially shoulder and forearm start to get stretched and pulled on
5.As the muscles get stretched to their maximum point and the racquet LAGS to the maximum point, the muscles SNAP back like a spring or a whip
6.The racquet gets released into the ball, but since the stroke is more on a vertical plane from low to high the majority of the release happens vertically (pronation and internal shoulder rotation), while some happens horizontal aswell, how much of which happen depends how low to high the swingpath is, but BOTH clearly happen as the racquet gets swung into the ball, it can clearly be seen by angle differences and also racquet tip differences low to high
7.The racquet tip at this point has a higher speed than the arm, thats why at LAG position the angle is smaller, while AT CONTACT the angle is bigger, because the racquet tip at this point accelerates to the point of traveling faster than the arm
8.As contact is made, the impact of the racquet hitting the ball slows down the racquet speed, and alot of the energy is transfered to the ball
9.At this point the arm is still swinging FORWARD at the same speed, the speed of the swing never SLOWS down at any point, but since the ball now impacted the racquet, it DOES slow down the racquet speed, so at this point the arm is traveling at the same or perhaps faster speed than the racquet for a split moment, which makes it seem like it was intentional, but it can't in any way be intentional, it happens as a result of impact, and since the arm keeps the same speed the end result is obvious

This is why you can not show us your "Federer forehand"...

 

[Gregory Diamond]

It would go in that direction if the racquet would not get released into the ball and maintained the same LAG angle throughout the swing.

In my first comment it was explained. Only at the beginnig the speed of the hand is much greater than almost static head so the hand is laid back maximally in that period. When the head moves faster because of this maximum streach of the muscles angle between the racket and the arm has to increase to natural value though the hand is still laid back. Just before the stroke Federer accelerates the hand so this angle decreases. The head is slowed down by the collision(we agree here) and during collision the hand and the head move in horizontal direction with the same speed. We dont agree about what happens later. In each video we can see that even some time after the ball left the strings the hand and the head move with the same horizontal speed. It doesnt depend on whether or not Federer hits the ball slower or faster. I have no problem in explaining it because Federer pushes the handle forward. If the racket was released before the stroke and moved later only because of its inertia it would still have after the collision greater horizontal speed than the handle. The greater the faster it moved before collision. It would go in front what doesnt happen. In your theory in some magical way during collision the head is losing always so much momentum that its speed equals the speed of the handle in horizontal direction.

 

[FiReFTW]

In my first comment it was explained. Only at the beginnig the speed of the hand is much greater than almost static head so the hand is laid back maximally in that period. When the head moves faster because of this maximum streach of the muscles angle between the racket and the arm has to increase to natural value though the hand is still laid back. Just before the stroke Federer accelerates the hand so this angle decreases. The head is slowed down by the collision(we agree here) and during collision the hand and the head move in horizontal direction with the same speed. We dont agree about what happens later. In each video we can see that even some time after the ball left the strings the hand and the head move with the same horizontal speed. It doesnt depend on whether or not Federer hits the ball slower or faster. I have no problem in explaining it because Federer pushes the handle forward. If the racket was released before the stroke and moved later only because of its inertia it would still have after the collision greater horizontal speed than the handle. The greater the faster it moved before collision. It would go in front what doesnt happen. In your theory in some magical way during collision the head is losing always so much momentum that its speed equals the speed of the handle in horizontal direction.

People view things differently and everyone may have his own theories about the swing mechanics, and different opinions and point of views are common, nothing wrong with it.
But I seriously don't understand your pushing the handle theory, thats just insane, when you strike the ball in any swing, whether its forehand or backhand or serve or whatever, once you swing then the arm keeps accelerating and swinging in one fluid motion, but you claim that Federer swings the racquet at X speed of the arm, and then at contact he magically increases his arm speed DURING the middle of the stroke and pushes it forward through contact.

 

[FiReFTW]

This is why you can not show us your "Federer forehand"...

1.Understanding the mechanics of a stroke has nothing to do with being able to produce a stroke, pro players don't have a clue what they are doing
2.Pretty sure my forehand is better and more efficient as your extremely limp slapping forehand that looks nothing like Federer even when you keep claiming blindly it does

 

[Gregory Diamond]

People view things differently and everyone may have his own theories about the swing mechanics, and different opinions and point of views are common, nothing wrong with it.
But I seriously don't understand your pushing the handle theory, thats just insane, when you strike the ball in any swing, whether its forehand or backhand or serve or whatever, once you swing then the arm keeps accelerating and swinging in one fluid motion, but you claim that Federer swings the racquet at X speed of the arm, and then at contact he magically increases his arm speed DURING the middle of the stroke and pushes it forward through contact.

That is what I say. We all see that in modern tennis racket is not taken back too far because speeding up the head before the stroke is not the most important thing. The most important is the hand laid back during the stroke because it lets us use the strongest muscles of our body and control the ball. If we only wanted to speed up the head we would add a lot of active wrist. That is what we do when we are throwing any long object. In tennis it is compromise between speed of the head(it helps to counteract the collision) and pushing the handle. If the speed of the racket is too high before the collision then you are losing the rest of the body. It doesnt mean that you cant play using that method. Thousands of players play that way because your theory is widespread. They are believers. The problem is whether it is the most effective way of playing. My answer is nagative. I am the best example. From the beginning of May I have won 6 tournaments(on the national level) and in 2 lost in the final. One of the main reasons why I was so successful (apart from two handed forehand) is that I played mostly against players who were throwing racket at the ball. I didnt have to do anything. They were lost before they went on the court because of their technique.

 

[jch]

1.Understanding the mechanics of a stroke has nothing to do with being able to produce a stroke, pro players don't have a clue what they are doing
2.Pretty sure my forehand is better and more efficient as your extremely limp slapping forehand that looks nothing like Federer even when you keep claiming blindly it does

You do not understand what you are talking about. Keep talking.

The real context:

Gregory Diamond:

FiReFTW (a model example of how the "Federer forehand" could look like when someone uses muscles, not physics):

jch:

 

[Curious]

1.Understanding the mechanics of a stroke has nothing to do with being able to produce a stroke, pro players don't have a clue what they are doing
2.Pretty sure my forehand is better and more efficient as your extremely limp slapping forehand that looks nothing like Federer even when you keep claiming blindly it does

He believes forehand racket lag is all tennis is about. He spent 10 years to establish this opinion. He also believes he is the only one in the world except Federer that can hit Federer forehand.

 

[jch]

He believes forehand racket lag is all tennis is about. He spent 10 years to establish this opinion. He also believes he is the only one in the world except Federer that can hit Federer forehand.

I do not BELIEVE. I can PROVE it. Not in front of kids here. Forget about it.

 

[FiReFTW]

He believes forehand racket lag is all tennis is about. He spent 10 years to establish this opinion. He also believes he is the only one in the world except Federer that can hit Federer forehand.

@jch claims ur wrist and everything should be completely limp and you shouldn't be using any muscles at all (which is funny because if you didn't then you couldn't even start the swing and ur racquet would also fall from ur hand), and then @Gregory Diamond claims the complete opposite of that, I wonder if they are both the same person and trying to troll this forum or maybe they really are 2 different people.