Federer-the greatest pusher of all time !!!

FiReFTW said:
Love it, i think its a straight arm forehand on most shots, and like the whole takeback and all, probably my favorite fh on wta.
In real life during this whole winter time i was indoors on hard court, she was hitting it slightly more flat there, here on clay she seems to be spinning it alot more.
Click to expand...
Curious how the season would go for her. I like technical and tactical ladies so much, unfortunately she didn't perform very well against more athletic ones the times I witnessed her play. Maybe was some recovery period, dunno. Now having won a title, even though not a big one, hope for the best to accompany my beloved Barty and Sevastova higher in the rankings.
 
Gregory Diamond said:
We can see in this video that from the moment when the ball touches the strings for the first time to the moment when ball leaves the strings the fist and the head of the racket move with the same speed. Racket stays perpendicular to the arm. Federer pushes the ball forward. The ball "feels" the whole body not only the head of the racket. Whatever Federed does after the ball left the strings has no effect on the ball.


The same here.


Diokovic said that he didnt use wrist in his two handed backhand. It means that the head of the racket and his hand are moving with the same speed. He pushes the ball.

I am also a pusher. That is why I have won a lot of tournaments.
Click to expand...
Okay okay

Only from 2012-2013 Federer started playing more rotationally etc.

In the video from the practice in Hamburg, I don't see Federer pushing the ball?! What do you think?!


Straight arm shoulder stroke straight to the ball and sharp clean flat forehand with through plug at the very beginning, then adds spin...

Next videos:


Federer Rocket Shots

According to you, there is also a pusher in these videos?!
 
Smecz said:
Okay okay

Only from 2012-2013 Federer started playing more rotationally etc.

In the video from the practice in Hamburg, I don't see Federer pushing the ball?! What do you think?!


Straight arm shoulder stroke straight to the ball and sharp clean flat forehand with through plug at the very beginning, then adds spin...

Next videos:


Federer Rocket Shots

According to you, there is also a pusher in these videos?!
Click to expand...
You’re talking to a ghost. Gregory D left the building more than 3 years ago. And he left this thread more than 5 years ago
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
You’re talking to a ghost. Gregory D left the building more than 3 years ago. And he left this thread more than 5 years ago
Click to expand...
Ok I get it XD,the guy irritated me, he posted 1 video where federer hits forehand topspin, and he said he is the greatest pusher...

In the video I posted Federer plays top spin and flat,
when he plays top spin it is known that the racket head goes up, but when he plays flat the head goes forward, it all depends on the choice of stroke XD

It's that simple;)

 
Smecz said:
Ok I get it XD,the guy irritated me, he posted 1 video where federer hits forehand topspin, and he said he is the greatest pusher...

In the video I posted Federer plays top spin and flat,
when he plays top spin it is known that the racket head goes up, but when he plays flat the head goes forward, it all depends on the choice of stroke XD

It's that simple;)

Click to expand...
WTH? He whole point of this forum is to make broad oversimplications turn into sweeping generalizations and false conclusions. You can’t mess that up with nuance!! Shame
 
Shroud said:
WTH? He whole point of this forum is to make broad oversimplications turn into sweeping generalizations and false conclusions. You can’t mess that up with nuance!! Shame
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XD :laughing: (y)

In the same way you could do pushers with Delpotro, Gonzalez, Soderling...
 
For the one hand backhand, Federer does not rotate his uppermost body as much as most other ATP one hand backhands highly ranked players. He uses his shoulder joint earlier than most others.

If you would like to know what is true look directly for yourself at clear videos.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

On the one-handed versus two-handed. Robert Lansdorp ended the discussion when he said I always ask the kid which one he wants to hit. He taught Pete the one-hander even though his personal opinion was that he had a great two-hander. I've written before that watching a lot of ex college...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

This part of a long thread on the ATP 1HBHs and Justine Henin's 1HBH. In this thread, several different 1HBH sub-motions were observe, identified, shown in videos and discussed. Federer's technique was definitely different and that is what the videos show. Federer lacked what I called 'chest press' (resulting from uppermost body turn) and videos show it.

This is not effective 'Chest Press'.
3B0B3F4C32A744AF84377C5F1B324506.jpg


FIRST UPPERMOST BODY TURN WITH CHEST PRESS & THEN SHOUDER JOINT.
 
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Chas Tennis said:
For the one hand backhand, Federer does not rotate his uppermost body as much as most other ATP one hand backhands highly ranked players. He uses his shoulder joint earlier than most others.

If you would like to know what is true look directly for yourself at clear videos.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

On the one-handed versus two-handed. Robert Lansdorp ended the discussion when he said I always ask the kid which one he wants to hit. He taught Pete the one-hander even though his personal opinion was that he had a great two-hander. I've written before that watching a lot of ex college...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

This part of a long thread on the ATP 1HBHs and Justine Henin's 1HBH. In this thread, several different 1HBH sub-motions were observe, identified, shown in videos and discussed. Federer's technique was definitely different and that is what the videos show. Federer lacked what I called 'chest press' (resulting from uppermost body turn) and videos show it.

This is not effective 'Chest Press'.
3B0B3F4C32A744AF84377C5F1B324506.jpg


FIRST UPPERMOST BODY TURN WITH CHEST PRESS & THEN SHOUDER JOINT.
Click to expand...
Not quite true. Roger actually coiled his (upper) torso more than most other elite/pro 1-handers. Compare his coil, for the prep phase, to that of Stan W. Stan coils a fair amt but Roger typically coils significantly more. If you compare the amount (degrees) of uncoil from takeback to contact, they are comparable.

Because Stan initiates his uncoil from a less extreme start position, his chest appears to be more rotated (somewhat open) at contact than Roger.

Stan continues his uncoil after contact. Roger often does not. Instead, Roger allows his R (front) shoulder to continue to come around while his L shoulder moves very little, if at all, after contact. As a result of this action, Roger produces a pec stretch across his chest — while he achieves a contraction (squeezing) of his shoulder blades.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Not quite true. Roger actually coiled his (upper) torso more than most other elite/pro 1-handers. Compare his coil, for the prep phase, to that of Stan W. Stan coils a fair amt but Roger typically coils significantly more. If you compare the amount (degrees) of uncoil from takeback to contact, they are comparable.

Because Stan initiates his uncoil from a less extreme start position, his chest appears to be more rotated (somewhat open) at contact than Roger.

Stan continues his uncoil after contact. Roger often does not. Instead, Roger allows his R (front) shoulder to continue to come around while his L shoulder moves very little, if at all, after contact. As a result of this action, Roger produces a pec stretch across his chest — while he achieves a contraction (squeezing) of his shoulder blades.
Click to expand...
The amount of torso coil is a separate issue for 'chest press'.

I showed a difference is what is seen in videos and a frame showing separation of the upper arm from the chest for Federer. Most ATP players do not do that but have the chest press onto the humerus for a longer time than Federer. That is true.

Feliciano Lopez also shows a similar early use of the shoulder joint for his drives. When I first watched his backhands in a match to see his drives, there were hardly any 1HBH drives. See one of his games. Lopez hit few top spin backhand drives relative to other ATP players and Justine Henin. His backhand slice was his preferred backhand.

Place Federer's and Lopez's 1HBHs with Justine Henin's 1HBH in between and go frame-by-frame. When I compared 1HBHs, I selected camera angles that showed 'chest press' from a favorable observation angle.

Another observation is whether the upper arm (humerus) angle turns with the line between the two shoulders or turns more independently. This issue was illustrated.

Try it yourself by doing extra chest press and no shoulder joint motion, slower and easy to be safe. Many other strokes are two-phase also. That is because on the forehand and 1HBH you first use uppermost body turn and then use the shoulder joint for forward velocity. See Djokovic forehand from the side camera view. Uppermost body turn then add shoulder joint. You get more racket head speed by first accelerating the shoulder mass, arm and racket and then second using the shoulder joint. Clearly seen in videos.

For the majority of forum readers - that do not like to analyze high speed videos - give it a try for 3 hours. Then ask yourself if you have learned anything.

Video observations on sub-motions of the ATP 1HBH & Justine Henin's.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Chest press was realized in post #51.

The rest of the thread has many video observations of sub-motions of the ATP 1HBHs and Justine Henin's.
 
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Chas Tennis said:
The amount of torso coil is a separate issue for 'chest press'.
Click to expand...
Not at all a separate issue to my mind. You made the statement, "Federer does not rotate his uppermost body as much as most other ATP one hand backhands highly ranked players". I am saying that he does rotate as much as other players, like Stan W, prior to contact for the reason I detailed.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Not at all a separate issue to my mind. You made the statement, "Federer does not rotate his uppermost body as much as most other ATP one hand backhands highly ranked players". I am saying that he does rotate as much as other players, like Stan W, prior to contact for the reason I detailed.
Click to expand...
But, the reason you detailed is incorrect, IMO.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Not quite true. Roger actually coiled his (upper) torso more than most other elite/pro 1-handers. Compare his coil, for the prep phase, to that of Stan W. Stan coils a fair amt but Roger typically coils significantly more. If you compare the amount (degrees) of uncoil from takeback to contact, they are comparable.

Because Stan initiates his uncoil from a less extreme start position, his chest appears to be more rotated (somewhat open) at contact than Roger.

Stan continues his uncoil after contact. Roger often does not. Instead, Roger allows his R (front) shoulder to continue to come around while his L shoulder moves very little, if at all, after contact. As a result of this action, Roger produces a pec stretch across his chest — while he achieves a contraction (squeezing) of his shoulder blades.
Click to expand...

your explaining this to a couple of guys who apparently don't play tennis lol....

the explanation is correct though:)
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Not at all a separate issue to my mind. You made the statement, "Federer does not rotate his uppermost body as much as most other ATP one hand backhands highly ranked players". I am saying that he does rotate as much as other players, like Stan W, prior to contact for the reason I detailed.
Click to expand...

You are right. I stated it incorrectly and will correct it. I do not know overall how much Federer turns his
uppermost body. But my point is that he uses his shoulder joint too earlier and then the uppermost body turn does not force the upper arm to turn with it in the initial forward acceleration. Federer's backhand is high level of course, but it is not what most highly ranked ATP players and Justine Henin were doing. I think that his backhand could have been better with a chest press sub-motion.

In 2017, his backhand was much improved and he had a great year. I looked at some of his backhands, but did not observe that he added a chest press.

I believe that if Federer had used a chest press - as Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin - that he would have won more matches.

Have you observed in videos the chest press in 1HBHs?
 
Last edited:
Chas Tennis said:
You are right. I stated it incorrectly and will correct it. I do not know overall how much Federer turns his
uppermost body. But my point is that he uses his shoulder joint too earlier and then the uppermost body turn does not force the upper arm to turn with it in the initial forward acceleration. Federer's backhand is high level of course, but it is not what most highly ranked ATP players and Justine Henin were doing. I think that his backhand could have been better with a chest press sub-motion.

In 2017, his backhand was much improved and he had a great year. I looked at some of his backhands, but did not observe that he added a chest press.

I believe that if Federer had used a chest press - as Wawrinka, Gasquet and Justine Henin - he would have won more matches.

Have you observed the chest press in 1HBHs in videos?
Click to expand...


GPT gives a slightly lower %.

the chance of a random tennis player becoming Federer, is ~ 1 in 100 million... and here we have a random internet guy criticizing not enough chest press.

point is - amateurs vastly underestimate their gap to the pros, let along the goat.

a side point Andy made - if you can't make a living you ain't a pro... which means them guys ranked under 300 ain't pros, them just recreational who happen to have money to burn.
 
Last edited:
10sbeast888 said:

GPT gives a slightly lower %.

the chance of a random tennis player becoming Federer, is ~ 1 in 100 million... and here we have a random internet guy criticizing not enough chest press.

point is - amateurs vastly underestimate their gap to the pros, let along the goat.

a side point Andy made - if you can't make a living you ain't a pro... which means them guys ranked under 300 ain't pros, them just recreational who happen to have money to burn.
Click to expand...
Sub-motions are clear for all to see.

Single frame through these forehands and backhands and observe the line between the 2 shoulders from start of forward turns to impacts. These are warm up strokes.

To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.
 
Last edited:
Chas Tennis said:
.............................................................

I showed a difference is what is seen in videos and a frame showing separation of the upper arm from the chest for Federer. Most ATP players do not do that but have the chest press onto the humerus for a longer time than Federer. That is true.

Feliciano Lopez also shows a similar early use of the shoulder joint for his drives. When I first watched his backhands in a match to see his drives, there were hardly any 1HBH drives. See one of his games. Lopez hit few top spin backhand drives relative to other ATP players and Justine Henin. His backhand slice was his preferred backhand.

Place Federer's and Lopez's 1HBHs with Justine Henin's 1HBH in between and go frame-by-frame. When I compared 1HBHs, I selected camera angles that showed 'chest press' from a favorable observation angle.

Another observation is whether the upper arm (humerus) angle turns with the line between the two shoulders or turns more independently. This issue was illustrated.

Try it yourself by doing extra chest press and no shoulder joint motion, slower and easy to be safe. Many other strokes are two-phase also. That is because on the forehand and 1HBH you first use uppermost body turn and then use the shoulder joint for forward velocity. See Djokovic forehand from the side camera view. Uppermost body turn then add shoulder joint. You get more racket head speed by first accelerating the shoulder mass, arm and racket and then second using the shoulder joint. Clearly seen in videos.

For the majority of forum readers - that do not like to analyze high speed videos - give it a try for 3 hours. Then ask yourself if you have learned anything.

Video observations on sub-motions of the ATP 1HBH & Justine Henin's.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...and-waht-force-to-start-forward-swing.462997/

Chest press was realized in post #51.

The rest of the thread has many video observations of sub-motions of the ATP 1HBHs and Justine Henin's.
Click to expand...

Here is an illustration of
"Another observation is whether the upper arm (humerus) angle turns with the line between the two shoulders or turns more independently. This issue was illustrated."

College application video including 1HBH technque. Shows early use of Shoulder joint and lack of chess press. This is a more reliable way to determine chest press because it is too difficult to directly observe if the chest is in contact with the chest. If they move together that is a more reliable indication of 'chest press' contact.
To single frame in Vimeo, stop video go full screen and hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
 
Chas Tennis said:
Here is an illustration of
"Another observation is whether the upper arm (humerus) angle turns with the line between the two shoulders or turns more independently. This issue was illustrated."

College application video including 1HBH technque. Shows early use of Shoulder joint and lack of chess press. This is a more reliable way to determine chest press because it is too difficult to directly observe if the chest is in contact with the chest. If they move together that is a more reliable indication of 'chest press' contact.
To single frame in Vimeo, stop video go full screen and hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.
Click to expand...

college app to play in a club team?

this is some low amateur bh.. footwork, prep, timing of the coil uncoil, so many things are wrong.
 
10sbeast888 said:
college app to play in a club team?

this is some low amateur bh.. footwork, prep, timing of the coil uncoil, so many things are wrong.
Click to expand...

Players looking for college scholarships for tennis usually prepare videos that show their games. This was a thread or post on the forum. Or maybe this was an earlier video and they were still working on it. ?

To me, it illustrated using too little uppermost body turn and too early a use of the shoulder joint - unlike most ATP pros. In other words, the chest press checkpoint is not there.

This video illustrated the use of the uppermost body turn relative to the humerus position as a video way of indicating there is no 'chest press'. It is how the Federer and F. Lopez 1HBHs are working - little chest press - but most pros have more uppermost body turn. See the videos.........

Note - when you look for 'chest press" directly in videos, because the chest and upper arm (humerus) are curved surfaces, all you ever see in a video is a shadow between the chest and upper arm. Are they touching? Can't be sure. If the shoulder's line and humerus move together it is a reasonable assumption that the chest and upper arm are usually in contact and forces can be transmitted. And felt.
 
Last edited:
Chas Tennis said:
Players looking for college scholarships for tennis usually prepare videos that show their games. This was a thread or post on the forum. Or maybe this was an earlier video and they were still working on it. ?

To me, it illustrated using too little uppermost body turn and too early a use of the shoulder joint - unlike most ATP pros. In other words, the chest press checkpoint is not there.

This video illustrated the use of the uppermost body turn relative to the humerus position as a video way of indicating there is no 'chest press'. It is how the Federer and F. Lopez 1HBHs are working - little chest press - but most pros have more uppermost body turn. See the videos.........

Note - when you look for 'chest press" directly in videos, because the chest and upper arm (humerus) are curved surfaces, all you ever see in a video is a shadow between the chest and upper arm. Are they touching? Can't be sure. If the shoulder's line and humerus move together it is a reasonable assumption that the chest and upper arm are usually in contact and forces can be transmitted. And felt.
Click to expand...
You shouldn’t be speaking about chest press as an established concept. Please put in disclaimers it’s your personal theory built solely on looking into videos.

I have pointed it out multiple times, but it’s unsound from biomechanics perspective. And you have no scientific conformation for it, nothing but your interpretation of videos.

As long as you act an enthusiast trying things and suggesting your approach, it’s absolutely welcome. But since you always ask everybody for studies and references, yet try to pull through this chest press thing just because you made it up… seems to be contradictory lines of action.

So please, don’t forget your disclaimers.
 
Dragy said:
You shouldn’t be speaking about chest press as an established concept. Please put in disclaimers it’s your personal theory built solely on looking into videos.

I have pointed it out multiple times, but it’s unsound from biomechanics perspective. And you have no scientific conformation for it, nothing but your interpretation of videos.

As long as you act an enthusiast trying things and suggesting your approach, it’s absolutely welcome. But since you always ask everybody for studies and references, yet try to pull through this chest press thing just because you made it up… seems to be contradictory lines of action.

So please, don’t forget your disclaimers.
Click to expand...
Its a solid point!

I remember when vid showed it was the left hand pulling the racquet down that started the one handed bh and became suspect of drawing conclusions solely from vid.
 

is there chest press spine engine here lol.

this is what happens when you study tennis without playing it... completely losing sight (or the disc) in the forest lol.

Power is never (or rarely) the issue. Go to your local park disc golf course; pretty much everyone can drive the bh no problem, but why does the 1hbh on the community tennis court all look like garbage?

think about this deeply you'll understand what is the most important thing in tennis.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Troll behavior.. All I ever see from you is telling ppl they are wrong or doing something incorrectly but I don’t ever recall see you offering a remedy.
Click to expand...
Should I just let people believe your incorrect information? Also, I’ve given the real explanation before, more than once. Stan does not rotate more to contact to make up for less rotation early. You have to admit, that doesn’t sound too scientific, does it?

Roger: He can turn his back more because he keeps his arm bent. RF builds momentum with the early rotation and then halts the rotation by throwing off-arm back as he extends hitting arm into contact. He doesn’t want to rotate more near contact as his hitting shoulder would pull his hand off of target line. In any sport where you throw or swing, you want to put full power on the line of your target.

Stan: He doesn’t turn his back to opponent because his hitting arm begins to separate and swing toward contact immediately as he rotates to contact. (Chas is wrong about chest pressing). If his chest was pointed more toward the back fence his racquet/hand would be accelerating toward the side fence due to straightish arm and would describe an arc toward the ball instead of accelerating along target line maximizing power. As his arm is straight he opens up more so he can keep his hand along target line.
That isSports 101. Not necessarily just a tennis thing. See baseball player below. I’ve put a red line on his dominant arm. His arm takes this position so he can extend arm along target line.

https://imgur.com/a/xkZ41pR
 
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ballmachineguy said:
You are agreeing with someone who, he can correct me if I’m wrong, also doesn’t play tennis.

Also, I’ve seen you play. ‘Nuf said!
Click to expand...

Chicago is a short flight away.... 'nuf said? how about I give you 2 games per set, we play for $100k? my investor is on board... free money for you?

v r giving away free money left n right, nobody taking it lol.
 
ballmachineguy said:
Should I just let people believe your incorrect information? Also, I’ve given the real explanation before, more than once. Stan does not rotate more to contact to make up for less rotation early. You have to admit, that doesn’t sound too scientific, does it?

Roger: He can turn his back more because he keeps his arm bent. RF builds momentum with the early rotation and then halts the rotation by throwing off-arm back as he extends hitting arm into contact. He doesn’t want to rotate more near contact as his hitting shoulder would pull his hand off of target line. In any sport where you throw or swing, you want to put full power on the line of your target.

Stan: He doesn’t turn his back to opponent because his hitting arm begins to separate and swing toward contact immediately as he rotates to contact. (Chas is wrong about chest pressing). If his chest was pointed more toward the back fence his racquet/hand would be accelerating toward the side fence due to straightish arm and would describe an arc toward the ball instead of accelerating along target line maximizing power. As his arm is straight he opens up more so he can keep his hand along target line.
That isSports 101. Not necessarily just a tennis thing. See baseball player below. I’ve put a red line on his dominant arm. His arm takes this position so he can extend arm along target line.

https://imgur.com/a/xkZ41pR
Click to expand...
More than once, huh? Can’t say that I’ve read every single post that you've ever written but I have seen multitudes of posts from you where you harshly criticize but offer NO explanations. Have never seen any of those “real explanations” from you. Apparently, others have have not seen them either.

You misread / misinterpreted what I said. I was not saying that Stan rotated more / less in order “to make up for less coil”. That’s your own mis-interpretation of what I was saying. I was merely pointing out, in response to a misleading claim from Chas, that Roger does not rotate (uncoil) less than Stan prior to contact.

While you may have provided more details behind the actions than I did, this does not make my info incorrect. It was not my intent to provide an in-depth analysis behind the diffs it their mechanics. My intent was to refute the Chas claim.
 
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His arm is also internally rotating through the hitting zone, which is how he creates so much effortless topspin while swinging on only a muted low-to-high angle. That internal rotation is a whip, not a push. It's a natural result of the external rotation that occurs during the initial lag.
 
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