federer throwing away no1 by playing only two tournaments?

caulcano

Hall of Fame
The US Open will settle the argument this year. If Nadal wins, it settles the argument. If Nadal screws up, it settles the argument. It always has and always will decide the #1 player in the world. The winner has been the #1 player in the world for how many of the last 20 years???
Would reaching the US Open final by Nadal be classed as screwing up?

Plus stats are there to be broken. Like Rios reaching #1 without winning a GS.
 

fastdunn

Legend
The reason I think Nadal will do better on hard court season is
what Federer said. The guy talks straight AFAIK. He said Nadal
is very different from last year and he now knows how to play
agressive. It looks like Nadal should improve his records on fast
hard courts.

Another thing is that I'm not convinced Federer's favorite surface
is fast hard court. The guy seems to like medium to slow courts.
His indoor record is not exactly spectacular and sometimes
he does better on slowest clay.
 

coloskier

Legend
Nadal not making it past the quarters like last year would be screwing up. Nadal losing to anyone but Federer would be screwing up. If Nadal makes it to the finals but loses to Federer, that is a definite improvement. But, if he loses to Federer, he loses the year end #1 ranking. That is 3-1 in GS finals. I know that the point system is setup differently, But I think in most peoples mind, what counts is your GS record.
 

Shabazza

Legend
The reason I think Nadal will do better on hard court season is
what Federer said. The guy talks straight AFAIK. He said Nadal
is very different from last year and he now knows how to play
agressive. It looks like Nadal should improve his records on fast
hard courts.

Another thing is that I'm not convinced Federer's favorite surface
is fast hard court. The guy seems to like medium to slow courts.
His indoor record is not exactly spectacular and sometimes
he does better on slowest clay.
Agreed. But Federer's indoor record is screwed, because he only played 1 whole indoor season during his dominant seasons since the end of 2003 and that was last year. He was injured 2 times and not able to play most of the fall indoor season in 2005 and 2004.
It's not his best surface, but it's still a far better surface for him than for Nadal and he did lose only 1 match since 2005 on indoor hc/carpet (against Nalbandian MC final 05, while coming from a serious ankle injury).
 

johnny ballgame

Professional
all that matters is the ATP RANKINGS NOT THE BLOODY ATP RACE!!!!
why is that so bloody hard for you people to understand, you think if the season ended today that nadal would be the number one player in the world? NO!!!!
I can not believe that you actually read the Q&A on the ATP rankings site and yet you STILL DON'T GET IT?!?

Let me say this very slowly: YOU... ARE... WRONG.

Entry Ranking = Race Ranking at YEAR-END for every player that doesn't have any points from futures/challengers (basically all the top players).

Good grief man, get some sense!
 

Shabazza

Legend
I can not believe that you actually read the Q&A on the ATP rankings site and yet you STILL DON'T GET IT?!?

Let me say this very slowly: YOU... ARE... WRONG.

Entry Ranking = Race Ranking at YEAR-END for every player that doesn't have any points from futures/challengers (basically all the top players).

Good grief man, get some sense!
Don't bother with him, if he didn't get it untill now he won't do so in the future.
How both entry rankings work is stated clearly in this thread alone multiple times.
 

mileslong

Professional
The US Open will settle the argument this year. If Nadal wins, it settles the argument. If Nadal screws up, it settles the argument. It always has and always will decide the #1 player in the world. The winner has been the #1 player in the world for how many of the last 20 years???
the winner of the us open will not determine who the worlds #1 player is. that is unless you consider these recent winners the #1 player in the world: svetlana kuznetsova, kim clijsters or maria sharapova. pat rafter marat safin and on and on but i think i made my point...
 

illkhiboy

Hall of Fame
We've been over this and over this. The champions race = #1 in the world at year end!! Race = Entry at year end.

Please people, go on the ATP website and educate yourselves. I'm begging you.
Seriously this is getting ridiculous. If ranking points were not dropped after 52 weeks, Agassi would still have been number one in 2005..and Santoro or some other veteran would be a top 10-er.
 

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
no you dont know what you are saying, so if federer got hurt today and say davedenko ended up playing well the rest of the year and getting 1 more point than federer has at this point in the year that he would pass federer? NO

the fact is that at the start of the tennis year 2007 every tennis player DID NOT START OUT WITH ZERO POINTS!!!!!! all that matters is the ATP RANKINGS NOT THE BLOODY ATP RACE!!!!
why is that so bloody hard for you people to understand, you think if the season ended today that nadal would be the number one player in the world? NO!!!! morons he would be the number two player in the world with point totals being federer = 7290 and nadal = 5455. nadal only federer in the atp race category which is points accumulated for year to date. if federer had been injured all year he would not have been passed by freakin Tveit, Erling of norway who played in one tournament and gained one freakin point for 2007 whle federer had gained 0 points due to being injured. GET IT YET?

NO? okay, here is the freakin breakdown, i only used the PGA as an example of how a player might be ahead or get a larger total number of points for one year yet not be the world number 1, they use a bit of a different system than the ATP but at years end its basically the same. they use the previous 52 weeks along with the current year points to determine the ATP ranking leader so GUESS WHAT?

A. The ATP Race is a calendar-year points race which reflects the performances of the world's best players in the current year. The Race determines the year-end world No.1 and which eight players qualify for Tennis Masters Cup.

The ATP Rankings is known colloquially by fans as 'the world ranking.' For example, when Roger Federer is No. 1 in the ATP Rankings he is said to be the No. 1 player in the world. Or a player who is No. 7 in the ATP Rankings is said to be a 'Top 10 player.'

The ATP Rankings is the ATP's historical objective merit-based method used for determining entry and seeding in all tournaments for both singles and doubles, except as modified for World Team Championship and Tennis Masters Cup.

The ATP Rankings period is the immediate past 52 weeks, except for:
(i) the Tennis Masters Cup, which is dropped on the Monday following the last ATP event of the following year;
(ii) Futures Series Tournaments that are only entered into the System on the second Monday following the Tournament's week. Once entered, all Tournaments, except for the Tennis Masters Cup, remain in the System for 52 consecutive weeks.[/B]

so you see they take the points accumulated year to date plus the previous 52 weeks to determine the ATP Ranking Leader or WORLD RANKING. Vince Spadea has played in 14 events already this year and his ATP Race ranking or 2007 point totals puts him at 47 he isnt telling everyone that he is a top 50 player WHY? because his ATP Rank is number 59.

bottom line for all the nadal boyz with reading comprehension problems is that this year so far nadal has played 4 more tournaments than federer and is leading him by 135 points SO FAR THIS YEAR while in the ATP Ranking, which the important one, nadal has played 3 more tournaments than federer but trails by 1835 points.

he hasnt made up that much ground and it will only get worse now that hardcourt season is here. federer is going to remain number 1 for probably the next two years if he just plays good tennis not even great. nadal will have to play out of his mind for the next two years in order to even have a shot at overtaking the number 1 position. all of this barring injuries to either of course.

NOW WASNT THAT EASY?
I will attempt to explain this to you one more time:

Entry points go back one year from the current date,atp race point are the current calendar year total from jan. 1 2007- to dec 31 2007
So, now read this carefully on dec 31 2007 entry points will be the same as the race points for the year, they will be the exact same on that date. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Race points and entry points are the exact same thing one is a running total for the calendar year and the other is a running total from a year to date. race points times 5 will give you the current entry points for the calendar year, and you will see that Nadal is ahead by 600 points if you need to see it in entry points.
 

coloskier

Legend
Maria was #1 after she won the US Open. Clijsters was #1 after she won the US Open. Kuznetsova was a flash in the pan. It is not always the truth, but 90% of the time it is. Rafter was ranked #1 in 1999, so was Safin at the end of 2000.
 

Tchocky

Hall of Fame
This guy makes no sense... Tokyo and Basel are AFTER the US Open, yet he mentions Nadal having already played 6 minor tournaments. He makes no mention of Nadal's fall schedule. Roger still has 3 Masters tournaments, the US Open, AND the Masters Cup--all worth much more points than Nadal's minor tournaments. Basically his point is Nadal is trying to nickel & dime the #1 ranking away from Federer. This guy is just trying to stir the pot, he isn't saying anything worthwhile.
True that...
 

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
True that...
No it does make sense because you use 18 tournaments to make your year end point total, and Federer wasn't scheduled to play 18 tournaments that he can count for his year end total, that is the point the author is trying to make.
 

mileslong

Professional
I will attempt to explain this to you one more time:

Entry points go back one year from the current date,atp race point are the current calendar year total from jan. 1 2007- to dec 31 2007
So, now read this carefully on dec 31 2007 entry points will be the same as the race points for the year, they will be the exact same on that date. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Race points and entry points are the exact same thing one is a running total for the calendar year and the other is a running total from a year to date. race points times 5 will give you the current entry points for the calendar year, and you will see that Nadal is ahead by 600 points if you need to see it in entry points.
do you even know how to read? i never said that nadal wasnt leading in this years atp race points, i never even addressed that, i distiguished the difference between between ATP race and ATP Ranking. ATP ranking is the only thing to worry about when discussing who is the worlds number one. do you disagree with that? if not, then just STHU because i was never discussing entry points or how they compare to race points, I WAS ONLY DISCUSSING THE MISCONCEPTION THAT ATP RACE DOES NOT SHOW WHO IS WORLDS NUMBER ONE.

AGAIN, bottom line is that whoever accumulates the most points for one tennis season is not considered world number 1 !!!!!!!
 

Shabazza

Legend
AGAIN, bottom line is that whoever accumulates the most points for one tennis season is not considered world number 1 !!!!!!!
And that's wrong. Sorry dude, at the end of a season the one who has the most points is the #1 in the world at entry and race ranking.
 

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
do you even know how to read? i never said that nadal wasnt leading in this years atp race points, i never even addressed that, i distiguished the difference between between ATP race and ATP Ranking. ATP ranking is the only thing to worry about when discussing who is the worlds number one. do you disagree with that? if not, then just STHU because i was never discussing entry points or how they compare to race points, I WAS ONLY DISCUSSING THE MISCONCEPTION THAT ATP RACE DOES NOT SHOW WHO IS WORLDS NUMBER ONE.

AGAIN, bottom line is that whoever accumulates the most points for one tennis season is not considered world number 1 !!!!!!!
No once again you prove that you are a complete moron whoever accumalates the most points for this tennis season will be world number 1 at the end of the year.
 
just for fun check out the final race standings of each of the last 7 years. notice that whoever accumulated the most points for each year was #1 in the entry as well? and that every single spot in the race top 10 also matched the entry top 10? could this all be a coincidence? was all this a consipracy in anticipation of nadal's fans talking about the race in '07?

http://www.stevegtennis.com/rankings/2000/r120400.txt

http://stevegtennis.com/rankings/2001/r111901.txt

http://stevegtennis.com/rankings/2002/r111802.txt

http://stevegtennis.com/rankings/2003/r111703.txt

http://stevegtennis.com/rankings/2004/r112204.txt

http://stevegtennis.com/rankings/2005/r112105.txt

http://stevegtennis.com/rankings/2006/r112006.txt

just how many tennis fans does it take to screw in a light bulb?
 

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
no you dont know what you are saying, so if federer got hurt today and say davedenko ended up playing well the rest of the year and getting 1 more point than federer has at this point in the year that he would pass federer? NO
Yeah, he would pass federer in ranking at the start of 2008 season.

the fact is that at the start of the tennis year 2007 every tennis player DID NOT START OUT WITH ZERO POINTS!!!!!!
Yes they did start with zero points in the race.

all that matters is the ATP RANKINGS NOT THE BLOODY ATP RACE!!!!
atp race determines the ranking for the following year.
why is that so bloody hard for you people to understand, you think if the season ended today that nadal would be the number one player in the world?
Yes, Moron he would be ranked the number one player in the world for the next season.
NO!!!! morons he would be the number two player in the world with point totals being federer = 7290 and nadal = 5455. nadal only federer in the atp race category which is points accumulated for year to date. if federer had been injured all year he would not have been passed by freakin Tveit, Erling of norway who played in one tournament and gained one freakin point for 2007 whle federer had gained 0 points due to being injured. GET IT YET?
Yes he would be passed by


he hasnt made up that much ground and it will only get worse now that hardcourt season is here. federer is going to remain number 1 for probably the next two years if he just plays good tennis not even great. nadal will have to play out of his mind for the next two years in order to even have a shot at overtaking the number 1 position.
Nadal is in the lead to become number one player at the end of the year, not 2 years from now.




Don't know how you can not understand how the rankings work, guess you just don't want to believe it, and for the record i am a fed fan and acknowledge the fact that Nadal could conceivably be the new number one at the end of the season.
 

mileslong

Professional
Yeah, he would pass federer in ranking at the start of 2008 season.


Yes they did start with zero points in the race.

No they didnt, look moron:

December 18 2006 Federer's ATP Ranking points were 8370
January 1, 2007 Federer's ATP Ranking points were 8370

Hmm, doesnt look like he started at zero now does it moron?


AGAIN, im talking about ATP RANKING POINTS NOT ATP RACE POINTS!



atp race determines the ranking for the following year.

Yes, Moron he would be ranked the number one player in the world for the next season.

Yes he would be passed by



Nadal is in the lead to become number one player at the end of the year, not 2 years from now.

No he isnt. his lead now doesnt make him world number 1 so if the points in the ATP Race stayed the same its not enough to overtake federer for world number one. simple.




Don't know how you can not understand how the rankings work, guess you just don't want to believe it, and for the record i am a fed fan and acknowledge the fact that Nadal could conceivably be the new number one at the end of the season.
you are the moron who can't understand the difference between the ATP RANK and the ATP RACE, now go look at the freakin website and see for yourself, i didnt make up the information i posted, i took it verbatim from their website. you better now put down your pacifier and write the ATP and tell them that you are wrong.

I still cant freakin believe that you think if davedenko finished this season with 1 more ATP RACE point than federer that he would pass him to become world number 1, thats just stupid but not unbelievable considering the source.

Nadal leads federer today in ATP RACE points so why isnt he considered world number 1? answer that simple question idiot...
 
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simi

Hall of Fame
What is the elevation and humidity? I got the impression that even if the court is slow, many pros complained about keeping the ball in court due to these conditions - making for faster play.
IW is located at a very low elevation (about 300 feet above mean sea level) in an a very low-humidity desert (usually below 25%, or thereabouts).

Interesting stat from Wikipedia (which one would be wise to not believe everything contained within) is that Indian Wells "has the highest proportion of millionaires of any city in the United States".
 

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
you are the moron who can't understand the difference between the ATP RANK and the ATP RACE, now go look at the freakin website and see for yourself, i didnt make up the information i posted, i took it verbatim from their website. you better now put down your pacifier and write the ATP and tell them that you are wrong.

I still cant freakin believe that you think if davedenko finished this season with 1 more ATP RACE point than federer that he would pass him to become world number 1, thats just stupid but not unbelievable considering the source.

Nadal leads federer today in ATP RACE points so why isnt he considered world number 1? answer that simple question idiot...
If the season ended today the start of the new season nadal would be number 1
 

Lsmkenpo

Hall of Fame
you are the moron who can't understand the difference between the ATP RANK and the ATP RACE, now go look at the freakin website and see for yourself, i didnt make up the information i posted, i took it verbatim from their website. you better now put down your pacifier and write the ATP and tell them that you are wrong.

I still cant freakin believe that you think if davedenko finished this season with 1 more ATP RACE point than federer that he would pass him to become world number 1, thats just stupid but not unbelievable considering the source.

Nadal leads federer today in ATP RACE points so why isnt he considered world number 1? answer that simple question idiot...
straight from atp site: the atp race determines the year end number one player how can you not understand?
 

Breaker

Legend
you are the moron who can't understand the difference between the ATP RANK and the ATP RACE, now go look at the freakin website and see for yourself, i didnt make up the information i posted, i took it verbatim from their website. you better now put down your pacifier and write the ATP and tell them that you are wrong.

I still cant freakin believe that you think if davedenko finished this season with 1 more ATP RACE point than federer that he would pass him to become world number 1, thats just stupid but not unbelievable considering the source.

Nadal leads federer today in ATP RACE points so why isnt he considered world number 1? answer that simple question idiot...
Haha...now I guess you're just trying to stir the pot. Imagine this scenario. Fed starts out with 7000 points at this point of the year while Nadal has 5000, Nadal has 900 Race points to Fed's 700.

Fed makes finals of US Open, Nadal defeats him. Nadal gains 750 ENTRY points, Fed loses 300 ENTRY points, Nadal gains 200 RACE points, Fed gains 125 RACE points.

Fed's new entry points, 6700, Nadal - 5750.
Fed Race points - 825
Nadal - 1100
Fed is still number one at this point

Fed loses in finals of Madrid, loses 150 Entry points, Nadal wins and gains 375 Entry points.

Fed's new entry points - 6550
Nadal - 6125

Race points - Fed - 900
Nadal - 1250

Masters Cup decides number one, Fed loses in finals to Nadal.
Nadal gains 550 entry points, Fed loses 300.

END OF YEAR
Nadal - 6775 entry points
Fed - 6250 entry points

Nadal - around 1400 Race points
Fed - around 1250 race points

NADAL BECOMES NEW NUMBER ONE HEADING INTO 2008.

That is hypothetical but is how the number one would be determined by year end, whoever has more race points after the Masters Cup is number 1 in both the race AND entry rankings. Thank you and good night.
 

DurablePants

New User
Wow this race vs entry thing is complicated...
its actually pretty simple

the entry points basically total the performances of an entire year, including tournaments that have yet to be played this season but were played last season.

atp race points on the other hand are the total points gained from tournaments just this season.

federer is far ahead of nadal in entry points because he had good tournament results from tournaments that have yet to be played from last season. However, if he doesn't perform as well this season in those same tournaments, he will lose those points.

Nadal is ahead of Federer in race points because he is doing better this season, which is what really counts.

By the end of the year, the race and entry will equal each other.
 

fastdunn

Legend
do you even know how to read? i never said that nadal wasnt leading in this years atp race points, i never even addressed that, i distiguished the difference between between ATP race and ATP Ranking. ATP ranking is the only thing to worry about when discussing who is the worlds number one. do you disagree with that? if not, then just STHU because i was never discussing entry points or how they compare to race points, I WAS ONLY DISCUSSING THE MISCONCEPTION THAT ATP RACE DOES NOT SHOW WHO IS WORLDS NUMBER ONE.

AGAIN, bottom line is that whoever accumulates the most points for one tennis season is not considered world number 1 !!!!!!!
At the year end.
At the end of a season.

Your 1st paragraph sounded like you understood. Then your 2nd paragraph
"AGAIN, bottom line is that whoever accumulates the most points for one tennis season is not considered world number 1" totally threw me off.
How did you end up in that conclusion ?

What do you mean by "one tennis season" ? That's 1 year, right ?
If yes, there is something wrong in your understanding of ranking
which shouldn't be too hard to understand.

It looks like words like "defending points" make some people confused....
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Another thing is that I'm not convinced Federer's favorite surface
is fast hard court. The guy seems to like medium to slow courts.
His indoor record is not exactly spectacular and sometimes
he does better on slowest clay.
It's simplely not true. Just look at his record, he barely lost any match the second half of the year. Look at his indoor record since he was number 1. He wins when he plays. He rarely loses serve on fast hardcourt and indoor.

Matches lost after French:

2004: 2 (Cincy and Olympics after winning Canadian)
2005: 1 (master final coming back from injury)
2006: 1 (Cincy after winning Canadian, some said he tanked)

In the past 3 years, Federer lost 4 matches total including Olympics after French Open.
 
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its actually pretty simple

federer is far ahead of nadal in entry points because he had good tournament results from tournaments that have yet to be played from last season. However, if he doesn't perform as well this season in those same tournaments, he will lose those points.
Well, I thought there are awful lot of points that Fed will have to defend duirng the hard court season this year. The interesting point is whether Fed can defend all the points successfully or how many points he can salvage this summer.
 

TennezSport

Hall of Fame
Yeah, that's the ticket

^^^ Exactly, it all depends on what Fed defends. Say if Fed defends all of his existing titles from last year and adds Cincy, then he is golden again and no one will catch him. If not.....then it could get a little dicey if Rafa excels on HC. So you say Race and he says Entry; potato, pototo, it all comes down to performance and only time will tell; the rest is just speculation.

TennezSport :cool:
 

fastdunn

Legend
It's simplely not true. Just look at his record, he barely lost any match the second half of the year. Look at his indoor record since he was number 1. He wins when he plays. He rarely loses serve on fast hardcourt and indoor.

Matches lost after French:

2004: 2 (Cincy and Olympics after winning Canadian)
2005: 1 (master final coming back from injury)
2006: 1 (Cincy after winning Canadian, some said he tanked)

In the past 3 years, Federer lost 4 matches total including Olympics after French Open.
Well, when you say '2nd half', you include Wimbledon.
I don't think many people consider Wimbledon as fast court any more.

Plus I was refering to "fast hard courts" and indoor excluding
grass courts.

He barely lost any matches 2nd half but he barely lost anything anyway.
He holds his serve better on fast courts but pretty much same
for every body.

2004: He played 6 tournaments after his last clay tournament. Skipped carpet.

2005: He played 4 tournaments after Wimbledon. Masters cup was played
on carpet and he recorded his only loss to Nalbandian after he became no. 1.

2006: He played 7 tournaments after Wimbledon. He wins his 1st hometown
tourney at Basel played on carpet. But David Ferrer pushed him into 1 tie-break 1st time in his career. World #54 Srichaphan and Gonzalez pushed
Federer into 3rd set tie-breakers.

So after Federer became no. 1, he played 2 indoor carpet tournaments
in the 2nd half of seasons.
Master's cup and Basel.
He barely won Basel (which he repeatedly got close but failed to win)
and lost Master's cup.
 
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Messarger

Hall of Fame
you are the moron who can't understand the difference between the ATP RANK and the ATP RACE, now go look at the freakin website and see for yourself, i didnt make up the information i posted, i took it verbatim from their website. you better now put down your pacifier and write the ATP and tell them that you are wrong.

I still cant freakin believe that you think if davedenko finished this season with 1 more ATP RACE point than federer that he would pass him to become world number 1, thats just stupid but not unbelievable considering the source.

Nadal leads federer today in ATP RACE points so why isnt he considered world number 1? answer that simple question idiot...
The only reason why Nadal isnt number 1 is because the season has not ended. If it has ended right NOW and the points are counted, Nadal would be number one.
 

TennezSport

Hall of Fame
Wait.......

Isn't the whole point of a "RACE" to get across the finish line??? If, that is the case, Rafa is leading is the way is how you should look at it. The rest is hyperbole since the "RACE" has not ended. Saying "If is ended now" is futile as "IT" has not ended yet. Can we wait until the end and see who the winner is??? I am sure that the "BEST" man of the YEAR will win, whoever that is.

TennezSport :cool:
 
To sum up . . . .

The ATP Race reflects players' accomplishments since the beginning of the calendar year.

The ATP Rankings reflects players' accomplishments over the last 12 months.

At the end of the calendar year, the periods of time taken into account for both will have become equivalent, i.e. the last 12 months.

I suppose what's left to debate is who is the "best" player in the world in the middle of a given year--the one who has performed the best over the last 12 months versus the one who is performing the best right now (since the start of the calendar year).

This all sound correct? Sensible stuff, but not as user-friendly as it could be for the casual fan.
 
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Messarger

Hall of Fame
Isn't the whole point of a "RACE" to get across the finish line??? If, that is the case, Rafa is leading is the way is how you should look at it. The rest is hyperbole since the "RACE" has not ended. Saying "If is ended now" is futile as "IT" has not ended yet. Can we wait until the end and see who the winner is??? I am sure that the "BEST" man of the YEAR will win, whoever that is.

TennezSport :cool:
I was answering mieslong question. I use "if" because i'm trying to tell him that "if" it really ended today, Nadal would be number 1. I know its not ended.
 

tennis_hand

Hall of Fame
very simple logic:

ATP Ranking points: the total points from the date of last year to the same date of this year. e.g. Aug 1st 2006 to Aug 1st 2007. then at sep, the Ranking points will be Sep 1st 06 to Sep 1st 07. ( if u wanna say, it is not date, but event. sure. i know that. keep it simple). The Ranking point is always based on a moving 1 year time window.

ATP Race points: the points from the start of this year.
i.e. from Jan 1st to Aug 1st. When we are in Sep, the Race points will be from Jan 1st to Sep 1st. The Race points always start from the Jan 1st of this year, but it ends with the date you count it. But ATP chooses to divide the total points by 5, and get the Race points. But WTA Race points are not divided by 5.

So, at this year end, December 31, or after all tour events are over, the
ATP Race points = 1/5*ATP Ranking points.
Hence, u can look at either of them and decide who is No 1.

<Now I am freaking out of here. Some people can't understand this high school logic of a 1-year moving time window...>
 

jukka1970

Professional
http://www.theworldoftennis.com/


July 23, 2007
Is Roger Surrendering No. 1?

I got to catch a little tennis Sunday morning, just enough to see world No. 2 Rafael Nadal pick up yet another title on clay, this time at the expense of Swiss No. 2 Stanislas Wawrinka.

The match of course got me to thinking of Swiss (and world) No. 1 Roger Federer, who is apparently resting and/or training after capturing his fifth straight Wimbledon title and readying himself for the hard court season. I also checked out Federer's Web site and noticed something rather startling: For the rest of the season, Roger is planning on playing just two tournaments (Tokyo and Basel) that are not either Masters Series or Grand Slam events. Unless he makes some last-minute changes to his schedule, that means that for the year he will have played a grand total of just three minor tournaments, out of five "other countable tournaments" that he could count toward his ranking.

Meanwhile, his archrival, Nadal, has already played six of these minor tournaments as well as also - like Federer - having played all the major tournaments. Considering that Rafa at this very moment enjoys a sizeable 135 point lead over Federer in the Champions Race, it does beg the question: Is Roger surrendering his No. 1 ranking? Surely he can't be counting on the other players to knock Nadal out of the hard-court events early like they did last year? Because it would be absolutely shocking to me if we don't at the very least see Nadal in the final of one and probably two of the big U.S. summer hard court events. And if Rafa wins one Masters Series and loses in the final of the U.S. Open to Federer, it's certainly possible that Rafa could finish No. 1 even with Roger winning three Grand Slams. Of course, at this point, if Nadal wins the U.S. Open, the No. 1 ranking is going to be changing hands for sure.
I wrote about this under the heading the fight between #1 and #2, showing how the points break down, and what has to happen in order for Nadal to take the #1 spot over. You should take a look at it. I understand what you're saying, and it may look like Federer's tossing away the #1, but he isn't. He is saving his energy for the events that have more points.

Jukka
 

Wolbo

Rookie
Unlike this time last year when it was already clear that Fed would finish as no.1 we have a real contest this year. Fed should still be favorite but he has very little margin of error. In fact if Fed pulls a muscle in practice next week and is out for a month Nadal could already be the new no. 1 by the end of the US Open.

Nadal has a very realistic chance to threaten Fed's no. 1 spot at the 2008 AO.
 

Wolbo

Rookie
It's interesting to see how Federer plays fewer tournaments than in the past and how this mimicks what Sampras did in his career. I wonder if that choice is only driven by physical concerns or also to prevent a burnout from the mental strain of having to play week in week out to defend your no. 1 position.

Two years ago Roger dropped Rotterdam fom his schedule (damn!) and pulled out of Paris and Hamburg. This year in addition he also dropped Doha from his schedule and pulled out from Halle although he did play Hamburg. I expect he will not play and Paris and Basel. This year he is more likely to drop Basel because he won that last year and he may need the extra points to stay ahead of Nadal.
 

Shabazza

Legend
It's interesting to see how Federer plays fewer tournaments than in the past and how this mimicks what Sampras did in his career. I wonder if that choice is only driven by physical concerns or also to prevent a burnout from the mental strain of having to play week in week out to defend your no. 1 position.

Two years ago Roger dropped Rotterdam fom his schedule (damn!) and pulled out of Paris and Hamburg. This year in addition he also dropped Doha from his schedule and pulled out from Halle although he did play Hamburg. I expect he will not play and Paris and Basel. This year he is more likely to drop Basel because he won that last year and he may need the extra points to stay ahead of Nadal.
Believe me, if Federer needs the points from Basel to keep #1 position, he'll play it. The same goes for Paris, but I doubt Nadal will be good enough in the 2nd half to push Federer that far.
 

mileslong

Professional
i wanted to come on here to apologize to everyone that i returned insults with and all those that i said were wrong about this issue. i talked to a guy a while back on my club about this and he said that that even if the season ended today federer would still be number 1 because his lead was so big and at face value his logic made sense to me. so i have been defending this logic to the point of making myself look silly.

after a lot of people disagreed i decided to sit down myself and figure this out. i own a commercial mortgage company and i am considered to be a bright man but i must say i feel like an imbecile right now.

i printed out the rules for the point ranking systems and studied them last night before i went to the "heart" concert last night at the orange county fair, but it digress :) anyway, when i worked it out with the formulas it does appear that you guys were right to state that nadal would be the world number 1 as well, not just the ATP race leader in points, if the season ended today.

so bottom line is that i was wrong and you guys were right and i apologize to lsmkenpo and any others that i disagreed with. if you were here i would buy you all a beer. next time i will take my own advice that i give to others on here and think before i speak. take care all im off to the courts...
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
It's interesting to see how Federer plays fewer tournaments than in the past and how this mimicks what Sampras did in his career. I wonder if that choice is only driven by physical concerns or also to prevent a burnout from the mental strain of having to play week in week out to defend your no. 1 position.
Part of Fed's schedule strategy is driven by Nike and IMG - he plays more tournaments outside of the US/EU to maximize his cash - endorsement potential. I'm sure he gets huge appearance fees for Dubai and Tokyo - and the exo's in Asia.

The 'years ranked #1 at the end of the year' 'record' is fairly meaningless in the overall scheme of things. If Fed wins 3 out of 4 Slams (again!) and the Masters Cup, he's still The Man, regardless of some point totals.
 

Messarger

Hall of Fame
At least we've come to an agreement on how to calculate the year end rankings. This thread deserve a sticky so that future board members can refer to if they do not understand the ATP rankings.
 

illkhiboy

Hall of Fame
Well, when you say '2nd half', you include Wimbledon.
I don't think many people consider Wimbledon as fast court any more.

Plus I was refering to "fast hard courts" and indoor excluding
grass courts.

He barely lost any matches 2nd half but he barely lost anything anyway.
He holds his serve better on fast courts but pretty much same
for every body.

2004: He played 6 tournaments after his last clay tournament. Skipped carpet.

2005: He played 4 tournaments after Wimbledon. Masters cup was played
on carpet and he recorded his only loss to Nalbandian after he became no. 1.

2006: He played 7 tournaments after Wimbledon. He wins his 1st hometown
tourney at Basel played on carpet. But David Ferrer pushed him into 1 tie-break 1st time in his career. World #54 Srichaphan and Gonzalez pushed
Federer into 3rd set tie-breakers.


So after Federer became no. 1, he played 2 indoor carpet tournaments
in the 2nd half of seasons.
Master's cup and Basel.
He barely won Basel (which he repeatedly got close but failed to win)
and lost Master's cup.
Ridiculous. David Ferrer WON A SET against Federer at Hamburg this year for the FIRST time, on "slowest clay."
 

illkhiboy

Hall of Fame
i wanted to come on here to apologize to everyone that i returned insults with and all those that i said were wrong about this issue. i talked to a guy a while back on my club about this and he said that that even if the season ended today federer would still be number 1 because his lead was so big and at face value his logic made sense to me. so i have been defending this logic to the point of making myself look silly.

after a lot of people disagreed i decided to sit down myself and figure this out. i own a commercial mortgage company and i am considered to be a bright man but i must say i feel like an imbecile right now.

i printed out the rules for the point ranking systems and studied them last night before i went to the "heart" concert last night at the orange county fair, but it digress :) anyway, when i worked it out with the formulas it does appear that you guys were right to state that nadal would be the world number 1 as well, not just the ATP race leader in points, if the season ended today.

so bottom line is that i was wrong and you guys were right and i apologize to lsmkenpo and any others that i disagreed with. if you were here i would buy you all a beer. next time i will take my own advice that i give to others on here and think before i speak. take care all im off to the courts...
So..you are human eh? :-D I was just thinking, we have all these debates/arguments over here but it's so rare to see people admit they are wrong. Was refreshing to read your post.
 

CyBorg

Legend
There is really no need for Federer to panic by playing smaller tournaments. Doing this would only increase his workload and contribute to potential injury. Roger needs his rest on the hardcourts - these are tough on the body.

He knows that his fate is in his hands and the tournaments ahead all play to his strengths - we'll be seeing much faster hardcourts and later indoor carpet events that will also play fast and will benefit him more than Nadal. To boot the best-of-three finals in masters cup series will result in Roger most likely making it to Paris-Bercy, thus picking up some points there (although Nadal should as well).

It's all in Roger's hands. Even if Nadal makes the US Open final against Roger the matchup will be entirely in Federer's favour. The court will be faster than at Wimbledon and Roger is the three-time defending champion. With a victory he picks up 'race points' on Nadal (ewww - I feel dirty even bringing up race points).

Most of the indoor season tourneys are fast. Roger is doing the right thing by saving his energy - he has a lot more events to play and he can't spend himself prematurely. Nadal is the one who should be concerned about his body handling the upcoming events, but I still think that he did the right thing by playing Stuttgart. He had a week's break after Wimbledon and now has more time to rest in time for Montreal. No problem - Rafa likes Stuttgart; Roger doesn't care.
 

Matt H.

Professional
this thread is funny.

Today is July 28, 2007.

The entry ranking right now would be all points earned from July 28 2006 through July 28, 2007. It's a rolling 52 week point system. So tomorrow it would be july 29, 2006 through july 29 2007, and so on and so on.

The Race is all points earned from January 1, 2007 through today.

The tennis season completes at the end of November. Therefore, on the final day of the season BOTH the Entry and Race will have the exact identical list of top 10, 20, 50, etc.


My speculation says that if Nadal wins the US open, makes the final, or at least the semi-final, he will be the year end #1.
 

West Coast Ace

G.O.A.T.
It's all in Roger's hands. Even if Nadal makes the US Open final against Roger the matchup will be entirely in Federer's favour. The court will be faster than at Wimbledon and Roger is the three-time defending champion.
Well said. I'll add that many posters seem to forget that Nadal has to navigate (or get a real sweet draw) to get around the Youznhy's of the ATP tour at the USO - there are a number of guys who can pick Rafa off - very few who can get Fed. And Fed is very comfortable at the USO and doesn't mind the fans rooting for the underdog. I still feel Rafa isn't that comfortable when the New Yawkers, especially the night sessions, start 'acting like New Yawkers'... :)
 

The tennis guy

Hall of Fame
Well, when you say '2nd half', you include Wimbledon.
I don't think many people consider Wimbledon as fast court any more.

Plus I was refering to "fast hard courts" and indoor excluding
grass courts.

He barely lost any matches 2nd half but he barely lost anything anyway.
He holds his serve better on fast courts but pretty much same
for every body.

2004: He played 6 tournaments after his last clay tournament. Skipped carpet.

2005: He played 4 tournaments after Wimbledon. Masters cup was played
on carpet and he recorded his only loss to Nalbandian after he became no. 1.

2006: He played 7 tournaments after Wimbledon. He wins his 1st hometown
tourney at Basel played on carpet. But David Ferrer pushed him into 1 tie-break 1st time in his career. World #54 Srichaphan and Gonzalez pushed
Federer into 3rd set tie-breakers.

So after Federer became no. 1, he played 2 indoor carpet tournaments
in the 2nd half of seasons.
Master's cup and Basel.
He barely won Basel (which he repeatedly got close but failed to win)
and lost Master's cup.
2004 and 2005, he was injured, out for more than a month both years.

I agree with the other poster who repsonded, you sounded ridiculous and defensive. Federer lost a set to Ferrer on carpet, it implied he isn't that good on carpet?

I would suggest you go back check your stats again before you post more on Federer. Last year's Master Cup win doesn't count, I suppose. He won 14 matches lost 1 on carpet since becoming No. 1. Percentage wise, second only to grass.
 
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CyBorg

Legend
Yeah, the Basel thing is deceiving. Before winning it last year Roger had skipped it for at least two years running. Maybe three.

Yup, checked it. After playing in Basel in 2003, Roger missed it in 04 and 05, before playing and winning in 06.
 
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