messiahrobins
G.O.A.T.
True
Federer vs Djokovic - A different look at the H2H (third of three threads looking at all big 3 H2H)
- Thread starter Hitman
- Start date
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
Sampras got pushed to five sets in a Wimbledon final by Ivanisevic, who is clearly worse than even the 20 year old Alcaraz.
Not to mention, Sampras, at just 29 years of age, lost to a 19 year old Federer, who didn't even end up winning the event (a washed up Ivanisevic did lol).
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
For me, Sampras is the grass GOAT, narrowly above Federer.
But let's not go too crazy and put him on such a pedestal, shall we?
But let's not go too crazy and put him on such a pedestal, shall we?
Megafanoftennis100
Hall of Fame
Borg - he retired at just 26. Djokovic was 36 y.o. in the 2023 Wimbledon final... Even if you argue that modern medicine allows players to have significantly better longevity, don't forget how (disastrously) things went when Borg attempted a comeback to the ATP Tour later...
Becker - fair point. Boom Boom Boris!
Sampras - I already covered this in my earlier post. He lost to a 19 year old Federer, who, by the time of their encounter, had only played five matches at Wimbledon in his career so far. Not a good look for the Grass GOAT...
Federer - very fair point. 2017 Federer was absolutely phenomenal. But I consider Federer to be better than Djokovic on grass anyway, so this doesn't matter.
Murray - LOL at trying to put Murray on the same level as Djokovic at Wimbledon.
Edberg - fair point.
Agassi - he only ever won one Wimbledon title in his career lol. And even in the title that he won, he just barely overcame Ivanisevic in the finals.
Nadal - I disagree. A 19 year old Kyrgios beat him in 2014. Rosol beat him in 2012. Even Darcis beat him in 2013. And at 36 y.o., Nadal got pushed to five sets by Taylor Fritz who is <<< post-2022 Alcaraz anywhere. Djokovic is a lot more consistent on grass than Nadal is. Even Razer (who is a disliker of Djokovic) agrees that Djokovic is greater than Nadal on grass.
As much as I dislike Djokovic, I still prefer to be decent myself and try to give credit where it's due. And quite frankly, I am not fond of some players being too overhyped either.
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
Age of Federer in the 11 Slam losses against Novak:
2008 AO: 26
2010 UO: 29
2011 AO: 29
2011 UO: 30
2012 RG: 30
2014 WI: 32
2015 WI: 33
2015 UO: 34
2016 AO: 34
2019 WI: 37
2020 AO: 38
Average 31.7
Age of Djokovic in the last 11 Slams he won:
2018 UO: 31
2019 AO: 31
2019 WI: 32
2020 AO: 32
2021 AO: 33
2021 RG: 34
2021 WI: 34
2022 WI: 35
2023 AO: 35
2023 RG: 36
2023 UO: 36
Average: 33.5
Djokovic won 11 Slams at an older age than Federer was in the 11 Slam matches he lost to Djokovic, proving age was just an excuse.
2008 AO: 26
2010 UO: 29
2011 AO: 29
2011 UO: 30
2012 RG: 30
2014 WI: 32
2015 WI: 33
2015 UO: 34
2016 AO: 34
2019 WI: 37
2020 AO: 38
Average 31.7
Age of Djokovic in the last 11 Slams he won:
2018 UO: 31
2019 AO: 31
2019 WI: 32
2020 AO: 32
2021 AO: 33
2021 RG: 34
2021 WI: 34
2022 WI: 35
2023 AO: 35
2023 RG: 36
2023 UO: 36
Average: 33.5
Djokovic won 11 Slams at an older age than Federer was in the 11 Slam matches he lost to Djokovic, proving age was just an excuse.
GoatNo1
Legend
no, i think in numbers. they are objective. that he did it in the strongest era ever (again numbers prove it) is bonus. and peak muzza was absolute better player overall than 04-07 rafa.
YE#1 (2 and 1), 41 weeks (80 and 13), 3 slams (2 and 1), WTF (2 and 0), 2 gold (0 and 0), 14 masters (2 and 5), 20 big titles (6 and 6) and 46 overall titles (30 and 32) is absolut greater than what roddick and hewitt did. and if he is bordering ATG players that achieved less are not there. i never heard anyone call 2 slam winners for ATG!
GoatNo1
Legend
fed won 3 slams in 17-18 as older than he was when he lost so much vs nole (and nole won many slams)! proving that he was not old in 11-16! difference was that mole was injured in 2017 and first half of 2018 while he was in form in 11-RG16 period!
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
11 "oldest" Slam title wins by Big3:
AO18 Federer 36 years
RG22 Nadal 36
UO23 Djokovic 36
RG23 Djokovic 36
WI17 Federer 35
AO17 Federer 35
AO22 Nadal 35
AO23 Djokovic 35
WI22 Djokovic 35
RG20 Nadal 34
WI21 Djokovic 34
Average age = 35.2
Average age of Federer in the 11 Slam losses to Novak = 31.7
35.2 >>> 31.7
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Fed king of valueless Mickey Mouse clown shoes endeavours only, confirmed.
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic winning all of those most recent slams against better opponents than 5-10 years younger Djokovic is the really impressive part.
darthrafa
Hall of Fame
titles and records definitely matter but the most important is the contexts
a simple example - rios and thiem, one with a slam and another is no. 1 without any slam won
who is greater?
of course djoker won more and defeated fed for a few times at slam finals, which is undeniavble facts
but the age gap is a key factor
ok
an oldJoker still won slams but dont tell me those finalists are on the same level of fed (even an oldFed)
i dont think those crybabies / record-counters can so-called objectively lists out top 9 players after their GOAT with reference to records/titles won
for instance, laver, rafa and fed, who is the greatest and the worst?
for god's sake
just hope the goat / "better" debate can die down asap
no one would deny the greatness of djoker and fed
but is it really meaningful to get a final verdict on who is GOAT?
a simple example - rios and thiem, one with a slam and another is no. 1 without any slam won
who is greater?
of course djoker won more and defeated fed for a few times at slam finals, which is undeniavble facts
but the age gap is a key factor
ok
an oldJoker still won slams but dont tell me those finalists are on the same level of fed (even an oldFed)
i dont think those crybabies / record-counters can so-called objectively lists out top 9 players after their GOAT with reference to records/titles won
for instance, laver, rafa and fed, who is the greatest and the worst?
for god's sake
just hope the goat / "better" debate can die down asap
no one would deny the greatness of djoker and fed
but is it really meaningful to get a final verdict on who is GOAT?
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
Big3 winning 23 Slams after turning 31 years old should debunk any age excuse for Federer.
Big3 in Slam finals vs non-ATGs:
in their 20s --> 21-6
in their 30s --> 20-1
Big3 in Slam finals vs non-ATGs:
in their 20s --> 21-6
in their 30s --> 20-1
darthrafa
Hall of Fame
another statistical t(c)rap
the level of two sets of opponents is hugely different
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
ok, let's leave out Murray (who's ATG for me):
in their 20s --> 14-4
in their 30s --> 19-1
darthrafa
Hall of Fame
show me your greatness list of the next 9 players right after your GOAT with statistical support
give up your stat-t(c)rap for greatness measurement
FlyingSaucer
Professional
You think in numbers that are favourable to Djokovic.
I never heard anyone call 3-slam winners ATGs either, until some Djo fans started peddling Murray as an ATG on the basis that "it's not all about slams."
Which makes your 'he only has two slams' argument EVEN funnier. I also didn't say Murray wasn't greater than Hewitt (I said nothing about Roddick, so not sure where that came from). I said if Murray's resume is ATG worthy, then so is Hewitt's. You have now moved to "borderline ATG" just to shift goalposts.
Again, no on peak Murray, though it's now not clear what you mean by "peak" Murray.
Federer had also lost to Nadal in 2011, 2012 and 2014, with two of those losses occurring at the Australian Open.
GoatNo1
Legend
no just numbers. but all numbers are favorable to nole. so everyone who think in numbers do it.
and even if we says that muzza is not ATG that does not change the fact that he was better than any player fed faced in his 03-07 period!
FlyingSaucer
Professional
No, actually, which you know full well.
GoatNo1
Legend
so say to me what about numbers do not favorit nole?
and talking about muzza vs hewitt if we do not take that muzza played in strongest and hewitt in weakest era of all time!
if we take out all achievements that both did so we have at the end:
1 slam, 2 OG, 12 masters, 6 slam finals, 2 MM VS 1 YE#1, 1 WTF, 39 weeks at no1
if we take that 1 slam is apr = 1 YE#1 and that 1 OG = 1 WTF
so we have: OG, 12 masters. 6 slam finals, 2 MM vs 39 weeks at no1
| muzza | hewitt | |
|---|---|---|
| YE#1 (100) | 1 (100) | 2 (200) |
| weeks at no1 (2) | 41 (82) | 80 (160) |
| slams (100) | 3 (300) | 2 (200) |
| slam F (15) | 8 (120) | 2 (30) |
| WTF (40) | 1 (40) | 2 (80) |
| masters (20) | 14 (280) | 2 (40) |
| big titles | 20 | 6 |
| MM (5) | 26 (130) | 24 (120) |
| points | 1052 | 830 |
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BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
The whole Fedovic H2H does not tell anything about who is better. If Fed does what a server of his level should do in 90% of cases, he wins USO 2011 und Wimbledon 2019 making the H2H 25-25 and 8-9 in slams so basically equal. As things stand Fed already won more point overall. As for age-difference: Fed had an age advantage until 2010 (mainly due to the fact that Djokovic, even if in prime years was a mess in 2009 and 2010 due to Martin etc.). Starting in 2011, Djoko started to have the advantage, even if Fed was still very good in 2011 and 2012, Djoko was absolute peak. Both of them are phenomenal players and GOAT candidates so they were great at any stage of their careers and their primes/peaks and decline do not really follow a linear path (Fed was **** in 2013 but again great in 2017/18, Djoko was **** in 2017/first half 18 but came back in the second half of 2018). Nevertheless, one can clearly say, that there were more matches between them where Djoko was closer to his prime/peak than Fed.
The argument with Sinner/Raz being 14+years younger than Djokovic is also stupid. Fed and Djoko are both GOAT candidates so even the slightest age-advantage can make a difference here. Sinner is nowhere near there so Djokovic can still beat him in slams while Fed could not with Djoko at the same age (he came very close anyways). Raz is another topic, but Raz likely has not yet reached his prime, so AO 2025 was not peak Raz against old Djoko but slightly pre-prime Raz against old Djoko.
The argument with Sinner/Raz being 14+years younger than Djokovic is also stupid. Fed and Djoko are both GOAT candidates so even the slightest age-advantage can make a difference here. Sinner is nowhere near there so Djokovic can still beat him in slams while Fed could not with Djoko at the same age (he came very close anyways). Raz is another topic, but Raz likely has not yet reached his prime, so AO 2025 was not peak Raz against old Djoko but slightly pre-prime Raz against old Djoko.
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jl809
Legend
I really don’t get this argument tbh
Djokovic fans ofc like to say stuff like this. These people will say that 25/26 y.o. Djoker or 31/32 y.o. Djoker was a relatively easier challenge for 30 / 37 y.o. Fed as facing 21/23 y.o. Sinneraz etc is for 37 y.o. Djoker, because the age gap was smaller, and that Oldovic has made a mockery of the age stuff over the last few years
But then in the same breath they will say that 2011/2015 Djokovic was the highest level ever achieved, that he is the GOAT, that 24 y.o. Sinner is nowhere near as good as 2011 Djokovic, that 2019 Djokovic wasn’t an inflation era slam winner at Wimbledon and would have beaten current Sinneraz at Wimbledon, etc
Both these sets of claims can’t be true lol. Either the versions of Djokovic who took slams off post-prime Fed is better than these new guys at the level they’re currently operating at - in which case even a 6 year age gap is quite significant against, y’know, the literal GOAT of tennis - or these new guys are playing ATG tier tennis already across all 3 surfaces that has come close to, matched or bettered what we saw from Djokovic at his peak.
The second one of these is clearly bollocks…. and that’s fine. Djoker’s peaks really were incredible. And Sinneraz are still young - in fact, less so for Sinner, but for Alcaraz, you can even very reasonably argue (based on what we’ve seen from him in the RG 25 F onwards) that he wasn’t even in his prime on HC or clay when Djoker beat him at AO 25, Oly 24, etc
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junkieballer
Hall of Fame
So Djokovic had a age advantage against both Federer and Alcaraz.
Either older or younger, Djokovic was always the lucky one.
GoatNo1
Legend
maybe not, but it with all other numbers and stats do!
stil fed improved vs ALL noles peers (expt potdo) that he played 20+ matches in h2h in 2011 and after, including rafa, muzza and wawa. while nole improved very much his h2h vs all main rivals since 2011, not just fed!
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
Djokovic's wins over top3 ranked Federer: 23
Federer's wins over top3 ranked Djokovic: 17
Djokovic got 4 of his 27 wins (14.8%) over Federer when Federer was outside the top3.
Federer got 6 of his 23 wins (26.1%) over Djokovic when Djokovic was outside the top3.
Federer's wins over top3 ranked Djokovic: 17
Djokovic got 4 of his 27 wins (14.8%) over Federer when Federer was outside the top3.
Federer got 6 of his 23 wins (26.1%) over Djokovic when Djokovic was outside the top3.
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junkieballer
Hall of Fame
Federer had 4 wins over Djokovic before Djokovic entered the top3 of the ranking (9 july 2007).
Djokovic had 0 wins over Federer after Federer left the top3 of the ranking (2 march 2020).
Looking at these numbers who really had the age advantage?
Djokovic had 0 wins over Federer after Federer left the top3 of the ranking (2 march 2020).
Looking at these numbers who really had the age advantage?
GoatNo1
Legend
af course that both can be true and is true! noles level from 2015-RG16 is highest ever AND is higher, better and more consistent that current sinneraz level considering all surfaces and conditions even if they are already ATG and play on very high level. numbers show it as well!
nole simultaneously held 4 slams, WTF, 5 masters and played 3 more finals. it is better results than sinneras have now together (4 slams, WTF, 4 master and 2 finals)! and his 17110 points (in new system) is much higher than razs 13150 and if you take sinneras best points for each tournament and each week they would probable together not reach noles highest points in current system! and top5 when nole did the record was: nole, muzza, fed, rafa and wawa! now is: raz, sinner, nole, zver, musetti!
think that it is much easier to accumulate points now than in 2016. slams finalist get 1300 points now vs 1200 in 2016 and master finalist get 650 points vs 600 back in 2016. and so on. but if we compare top5 players when nole did his 16950 record with to days top5 WITHOUT adjusting points systems we have:
| no | player RG16 | points after RG16 | player now | points now |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | no1e | 16950 | raz | 13150 |
| 2 | muzza | 8915 | sinner | 10300 |
| 3 | fed | 6655 | nole | 5280 |
| 4 | rafa | 5405 | zver | 4605 |
| 5 | wawa | 5035 | mussetti | 4405 |
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
It’s almost as if Sinner is nowhere near as good as Djokovic.
And why is Djokovic 0-3 vs Alcaraz in slam finals if he is the GOAT?
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
Fed is a legend but he has zero arguments over Novak, his fans should deal with it:
slams 24-20
yec 7-6
masters 40-28
olympics 1-0
#1 weeks 428-310
#1 years 8-5
career grand slam 3-1
career masters 2-0
h2h 27-23
slam h2h 11-6
wins over Nadal 31-16
slam wins over Nadal 7-4
as well as more slam finals, slam semis, slam quarterfinals, weeks in top2, top3, top4... he surpassed him in everything.
GoatNo1
Legend
because he has 8 Y#1, 428 weeks at no1, 24 slams, 38 slam finals, 3 CGS, 7 WTFs, gold + bronze, 40 masters, 2 GM, 72 big titles, 101 titles, nole-slam, 16950 points record (17110 in current system), highest W% AND positive 2h2 vs all main rivals!
better question is why is fed GC GOAT with 0-3 in W finals!?!?! if it is only 8-7 in W titles and nole did not have the same chance as fed due W20 cancelation when he was a huge favorite to win it (and fed as the main rival was injured and would not play anyway)!!!!
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GoatNo1
Legend
not everything, almost everything but not in all titles. 101 - 103.
but it is more, highest points 16950 - 15495 (in 2016 system), 72-54 big titles, highest W% (nole holds the record) and of course nole slam!
it is main things but it is even things as top5 and top10 wins, slam wins ect...
junior74
Bionic Poster
Novak got old, while Federer only got better and better the older he got.
junkieballer
Hall of Fame
Andy Roddick, main rival of Federer on grass until 2009:
"I remember in the 2012 Olympics, I played Novak 2nd round. I was unseeded but had won a couple weeks before and won two of the last three tournaments I played in so I was feeling great. I felt like Wimbledon was a place where I could still catch lightning in a bottle, make a bit of a run. Felt great in practice that week, went out 2nd round. Novak was someone who I had a decent record against at that point and he beat me like a drum. I was like a child on the court and I didn't play that bad. I lost two and two on grass. I walked off the court and thought I'm going to go out tomorrow and feel like I'm playing well. He just beat me like a drum and that was one of the first times where I thought this game is getting a little bit different than what I've been used to, these guys are from another planet right now. That one kind of hit home for me. The way he was playing in that moment was eye opening."
GoatNo1
Legend
luckily for nole so he got ALL main records (besides all titles) before he got old (and he did it with significant margin despite all obstacles!!) while fed retired with NO main records at all not single one!
BorgTheGOAT
G.O.A.T.
Age advantages work like that: At the beginning the older player has the advantage until the younger comes into prime years and the older leaves his. The 2023 meetings between them, Raz did not really have a big age advantage, only a small one. Definitely not peak Alcaraz. In AO 2025 he had the advantage but when posters use this as an example to **** on Fed for never winning against Djoko at slams after 2012: Fed came incredibly close in Wimbledon 2019 and for the most part he had to play absolute peak Djoko, while Raz peak is yet to come.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Roddick beat Djokovic 4 straight times on HC in 2009/10 and leads 5-4, while he is 3-21 against Federer. So one of Federer's peers was still a problem for Djokovic, just like Safin was.
In seriousness; Roddick retired just a few months after W2012, so he was probably the guy on another planet
Kyrgios, Anderson and Berrettini are all worse than Roddick in Wimbledon.
gamelovergold
Hall of Fame
You forget ROLEX watch.
Fame and money.
Just kidding
Federer is behind in every stats and it speaks volumes .
GoatNo1
Legend
he has 2 more titles (due almost 50% MM titles but still)! even if that is of lower rank of main stats but still. if nole wins 2-3 more titles of any kind he would own fed in ALL main categories.
GoatNo1
Legend
it is good that raz in 2023 as multiple slam winner and already YE#1 was not in his peak but nole was still in his peak as 36 YO! again. fed get old just vs nole. vs other rivals in noles age, including rafa and muzza he got younger with age. and he did perfectly fine vs all but nole who did very good job vs all rivals since 2011, not just fed.
jl809
Legend
Yes! Ok! So assuming this is all true - that Djokovic’s peak was the highest and that he was miles better than Sinneraz are now - what the actual f*ck does Oldovic’s record against Sinneraz (two far worse players than peak Djokovic) have to do with the age argument on this thread, which is centered around Fed vs that same peak Djokovic?
Put it another way - what does the AO 25 QF tell us about Wim / USO 2015? What relevance does a 37 year old Tier 0 ATG beating a Tier 2 ATG (who wasn’t even in their prime on hard court) have to a 34 year old Tier 1 ATG failing to beat a Tier 0 ATG who was literally peaking at the time? The answer is absolutely nothing
I’m trying my best to explain this in a way that Nole fans will understand but it’s hard. This is me even being generous to Nole by giving him his own category of tier 0 ATG lol
FlyingSaucer
Professional
So what you're communicating to me here is the threshold for ATG consideration is "1052 points" according to your own system. Very objective indeed.
Giocoswitch
Semi-Pro
Does it not strike you as odd that the margins for 38 year old Fed were so much better than they were for his 33, 34, 35 year old versions?
Alcaraz at 2025 AO was the worse opponent, sure, but not to the degree you're putting forth. Certainly not to the point where Fed almost beating Djokovic in 5 is better than Djokovic solidly beating Alcaraz in 4. This is aside from Djokovic backing it up with the Sinner win the following year also.
It's curious how people have decided old Fed was SO much better than old Djokovic, but then also give the former so much more credit for losing than they give the latter for winning.
GoatNo1
Legend
it does not need to have anything to do with each other. and noles highest level is not as high as that sinneraz lever are as children compared to profs. but it was higher and the highest ever. and all stats shows it. and that nole far from his peak still can win matches vs peak sinneraz despite 14-16 years difference show it too to some extent!
but you are right noles wins or loses vs sinneras do not show anything about fedals level. if nole still was beating them (sinneraz) regularly it maybe tell os more. ut it is fed fans that has very stupid logic from the beginning. there they say, for example, that fed was better player on clay than nole (despite much worser stat, less RG, less masters, lesser W%, much worse h2h vs rafa ect) and base it on single wins at RG11 and some very strange and very stupid "logic" that fed LOST vs better version of rafa than nole actually WON! so how can lost (especially easy ones) prove you are better then someone who winns? how can lost vs any version of rafa be better and greater than wins vs any version of rafa! especially if rafa was high ranked and won RG both season before and later his lost!
GoatNo1
Legend
show me your or any other system that show that hewitt is greater than muzza? and we can take the same system and do some math for big3! it does not matter what you prefer or how you calculate nole is the greatest! and it is probable very huge consensus that muzza is greater than oth roddick and hewitt!So what you're communicating to me here is the threshold for ATG consideration is "1052 points" according to your own system. Very objective indeed.
FlyingSaucer
Professional
You are basically talking to yourself, now.
GoatNo1
Legend
show me any list there hewitt or roddick is over muza in overall rank? not no1 stat or stuff like that but overall achievements.
for example:
UTS list with no1, slams and big titles focus:
Ultimate Tennis Statistics - GOAT List
Open Era GOAT List (a.k.a. GOATometer) compares tennis player career achievements expressed by GOAT Points
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
minimalist: muzza 20, hewit 25, roddick 35
The 25 greatest male tennis players in history have been named & ranked - in order
We obviously all know who the top three are, but in what order?
www.givemesport.com
muzza no20, roddick and hewitt not in the list (top25)
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Giocoswitch
Semi-Pro
Were there any circumstances under which you would've given credit to Djokovic for beating Sinner at AO or was contriving this kind of nonsense inevitable? Wimbledon 2023 is fair game but can we pretend to be even a little objective in our analyses
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Djoker deserves credit, but this also reflects poorly on Sinner who didn’t prove to be as overwhelming as Djokovic fans believed just because of the 14 year age gap.
And how is it nonsense? The fact that Djoker could win a 5 setter shows that Sinner has no physical advantage.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
I mean, Federer also won vs Nadal, he didn’t just lose to Djokovic
GoatNo1
Legend
did not nole won 3 W finals vs fed? won vs rafa and sinner too? all them are better than roddick at W.Roddick beat Djokovic 4 straight times on HC in 2009/10 and leads 5-4, while he is 3-21 against Federer. So one of Federer's peers was still a problem for Djokovic, just like Safin was.
In seriousness; Roddick retired just a few months after W2012, so he was probably the guy on another planet
Kyrgios, Anderson and Berrettini are all worse than Roddick in Wimbledon.
did not fed lost vs andersson and rafa vs kyrgios at W?
berrettini is still active and we will see if he end greater or not than roddick at W!
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