Federer vs Nadal vs History

Cup8489 said:
Who has a winning h2h with the current number one.

It's the nad turds on this forum who make things so annoying, acting as if H2h can somehow bridge the enormous gap between the two mens' resumes.

It can't. Rafa is not on the same level as Federer. He's close, but not quite. Won't probably get there either.
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That h2h lead isn't going last much longer, Novak will probably switch it by the end of this year.

He also doesn't have a leading h2h against Murray.

Nadal leads all his big 4 counterparts with h2h. He lead Federer during Fed's peak, he leads all his current age rivals as well. Del Potro, Berdych, Tsonga etc.

It's not like Nadal's game is only effective against Roger it's effective against everyone. Davydenko leads the h2h 6-5, but one of those wins was a retirement. I'm not sure if there is anyone else close to leading Nadal in h2h that's played him at least 5 times.
 
The_Order said:
That h2h lead isn't going last much longer, Novak will probably switch it by the end of this year.

He also doesn't have a leading h2h against Murray.

Nadal leads all his big 4 counterparts with h2h. He lead Federer during Fed's peak, he leads all his current age rivals as well. Del Potro, Berdych, Tsonga etc.

It's not like Nadal's game is only effective against Roger it's effective against everyone. Davydenko leads the h2h 6-5, but one of those wins was a retirement. I'm not sure if there is anyone else close to leading Nadal in h2h that's played him at least 5 times.
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The H2H against novak is irrelevant cause of other achievements. (before 2011 it was 13-6 in favour of fed).
Rafa is the only one who has played Fed from 2005 and has a positive H2H.Rafa is better than fed in big matches and has great record against top 10 players.But he is not as consistent as fed in grand slams and fed's consistency enables him to take advantage of situations where rafa is not around and as far as murray is considered he lost most of the big matches to fed(except OG and AO 2013 ).
As far as the argument for the GOAT goes i think its unfair to compare players of various eras as there are just too many variables.Tennis is not like basketball,too many things have changed to make fair comparisons between players of different eras.
 
TMF said:
Wilt and Russell is a perfect example. They were one of the greatest rivalry of all time just like Fed and Nadal. Wilt and Russell was also the #1 and #2 best center during the 60s. However, Russell had a huge H2H, but most fans see Wilt as a greater player. Like Federer, Wilt was very dominant, compiled so many ridiculous number of records which will never be broken.

Nadal and Russell may have the last laugh at the end of the game, but the greater player are the one who racked up better numbers against the entire field.
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I don't think the comparison works. Russell is better because he won more, period. Federer's better for the same reason.

The object of the game is to win, right?
 
Why did NadalAgassi get banned? Such a great poster...
 
The_Order said:
That h2h lead isn't going last much longer, Novak will probably switch it by the end of this year.

He also doesn't have a leading h2h against Murray.

Nadal leads all his big 4 counterparts with h2h. He lead Federer during Fed's peak, he leads all his current age rivals as well. Del Potro, Berdych, Tsonga etc.

It's not like Nadal's game is only effective against Roger it's effective against everyone. Davydenko leads the h2h 6-5, but one of those wins was a retirement. I'm not sure if there is anyone else close to leading Nadal in h2h that's played him at least 5 times.
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I was speaking of the Roddick h2h. If Nadal's game was so effective against everyone, why does he only have 11 majors? Why does he go out so often before the semis?
 
Cup8489 said:
I was speaking of the Roddick h2h. If Nadal's game was so effective against everyone, why does he only have 11 majors? Why does he go out so often before the semis?
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Nadal is 26 turning 27. When Fed was this age he had 12 majors but he didn't have to withdraw from 3 majors whereas Nadal did (WIM09, USO12 & AO13).

And he doesn't go out so often before the semis the only 2 times at AO since 07 were 2010 and 2011, both times he got injured during the match (although he would've lost 2010 anyway, there is no way he would've lost 2011 if he didn't tear his hamstring). The only other 2 times were matches where he had to take time off because of injury (Sod RG09 Rosol WIM12). Rafa is more injury prone, that is why he hasn't had the same success as Federer at the majors. But his career is not over yet, we'll just wait and see how many majors Rafa ends up with...
 
The_Order said:
Nadal is 26 turning 27. When Fed was this age he had 12 majors but he didn't have to withdraw from 3 majors whereas Nadal did (WIM09, USO12 & AO13).

And he doesn't go out so often before the semis the only 2 times at AO since 07 were 2010 and 2011, both times he got injured during the match (although he would've lost 2010 anyway, there is no way he would've lost 2011 if he didn't tear his hamstring). The only other 2 times were matches where he had to take time off because of injury (Sod RG09 Rosol WIM12). Rafa is more injury prone, that is why he hasn't had the same success as Federer at the majors. But his career is not over yet, we'll just wait and see how many majors Rafa ends up with...
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I don't think Rafa was beating Novak in 2011 at the AO even if he was fit, he'd do better than Murray though...

As for the thread, Federer has a better record and I think the surfaces help Nadal against Federer more than vica versa. Nadal is also a mental rock so he's been better at eeking out the many close matches with Federer. Laver surpasses them both IMO. Winning all 4 majors on 3 occasions (although one was the amateurs) is crazy dominance.
 
shaysrebelII said:
I don't think the comparison works. Russell is better because he won more, period. Federer's better for the same reason.

The object of the game is to win, right?
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That's from your POV, but most fans believe Wilt is a greater center. Federer is the same reason because he's widely considered the goat, not Nadal.
 
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Federer's head-to-head with Nadal is meaningless, but it's not anywhere close to the most important metric when evaluating the greatness of either player. The more important metrics are 76-53, 17-11, 6-0, and 302-102.
 
TMF said:
That's from your POV, but most fans believe Wilt is a greater center. Federer is the same reason because he's widely considered the goat, not Nadal.
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I think this perspective is silly. Federer's not the GOAT because more people like him than anyone else - he's the GOAT because he's achieved the most. I reject the notion that there's a democratic component to greatness. It's a cute thing to talk about, but Federer has won more on a tennis court than Nadal has, just as Russell won more on a basketball court than Chamberlain did. As such, they're better. It's that simple.
 
Hitman said:
Why did NadalAgassi get banned? Such a great poster...
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It's not the first time Professor RalphAgassi's got banned. Hopefully this one's permanent,the cranky proff doesn't know when to stop. So annoying sometimes.
 
monfed said:
It's not the first time Professor RalphAgassi's got banned. Hopefully this one's permanent,the cranky proff doesn't know when to stop. So annoying sometimes.
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Doesn't matter, he'll just be back under another name. Apparently NA is already a second coming from a former poster called Davey25.
 
DropShotArtist said:
Doesn't matter, he'll just be back under another name. Apparently NA is already a second coming from a former poster called Davey25.
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Ah yes, the great Davey25 who unequivocally crowned Sampras the GOAT back in 04 but when Fed overhauled Pete's slam count, the tall and handsome Rod Laver became the GOAT. :lol:
 
monfed said:
Ah yes, the great Davey25 who unequivocally crowned Sampras the GOAT back in 04 but when Fed overhauled Pete's slam count, the tall and handsome Rod Laver became the GOAT. :lol:
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if this is legit, that NadalAgassi guy is an ever bigger tool than I initially thought
 
Bobby Jr said:
The whole article was flawed (and floored :)) from the outset by making elementary comparisons with team sports like Basketball where head to heads basically bear no relevance for individuals. They may get used for the sake of TV statistics but they actually matter not one bit - the only thing that matters is the win or the loss.

Likewise, many of Jordan's seasons where he won the title he has "winning" stats associated with his name for games he didn't even play in - was injured or resting or otherwise.

The fact is Federer is, by far, the greatest player of his generation by almost every single metric including all the most historically regarded ones. Claims that Nadal has one over him come only by calling into play minor details which were never even used to show comparative greatness until Nadal. The use of them literally came about by Nadal appologists/fanatics trying to find some minor metric which could help them sleep better at night.
Meanwhile, everyone with sense or an appreciation of comparing the different eras is looking at the numbers that really matter: slam wins, time spent at #1 etc.

Sampras, for example, was never really compared to Agassi using their h2h because Sampras was plain so far ahead of Agassi in pretty much every important metric. This pretty much rendered the h2h data irrelevant - as it does with Federer and Nadal... except for people who either don't understand jack about tennis across modern history or are just partisan hacks.
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This is one of the best posts I've read regarding the GOAT debate ... well said. None of these arguments were brought up in the past but somehow popped up with the Fed vs. Nadal issue. In almost every case in previous comparisons, career achievements and consistency is what dictated this discussion. Now suddenly, H2H is more important. Sounds like an excuse, one that Nadal himself won't make (as even he recognizes Fed's achievements as better than his own) but Nadal fans will time and again. Why? Because, honestly, they don't think he can break the records, or achieve as much. Oddly, I think Nadal thinks he can, and knows to truly be in the GOAT discussion he HAS to ...
 
Many Nadal fans believe Fed is the greatest. They use h2h out of frustration sometimes because they have so much more to defend Nadal from...PED accusations, illegal coaching, time violations, fake injuries, gamesmanship etc.
 
zagor said:
LOL, you're the one to talk, please don't presume all of us are blind.
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I know! The nerve of some people! :oops:

I personally think Fed still is better than Nadal, and definitely one of the best (I won't indulge in discussing who is the GOAT, as I think that is a moot topic). But... some of the posters who claim to be Fed fans (with some very notable exceptions) are the worst ever. All that talk about Nadal and PEDs, including all sorts of other unfounded accusations, is appalling.
 
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monfed said:
It's not the first time Professor RalphAgassi's got banned. Hopefully this one's permanent,the cranky proff doesn't know when to stop. So annoying sometimes.
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tennis_pro said:
He's been just vile the last month or so. Got what he deserved.
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DropShotArtist said:
Doesn't matter, he'll just be back under another name. Apparently NA is already a second coming from a former poster called Davey25.
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Now, while I don't always agree with NA, especially when he thinks his opinion is fact or the word of God, however he does have good knowledge about the history of the game. I've gotta give him credit, where credit it due. But he has his ways, that's for sure. :)
 
IgnatusP said:
I know! The nerve of some people! :oops:

I personally think Fed still is better than Nadal, and definitely one of the best (I won't indulge in discussing who is the GOAT, as I think that is a moot topic). But... some of the posters who claim to be Fed fans (with some very notable exceptions) are the worst ever. All that talk about Nadal and PEDs, including all sorts of other unfounded accusations, is appalling.
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Ofcourse you would,TheLoneWolf. :lol:
 
sunof tennis said:
How in the world can you know this? Facts are that almost no tennis expert puts Rosewall, Gonzalez or Sampras ahead of Federer.
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Actually some experts rank Rosewall and Gonzales very high.

The fact is that, despite having a 2-8 record in slam against someone else, Federer still won 17 majors. His poor record against Nadal is fully taken into account in his achievements list. And he is still ahead of everyone else!

Sampras' nice H2H against his main rival don't compensate for three slams, including one RG, and another gazillion of tennis records...
 
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