Federer vs Nadal Who Is Ahead As Of Now?

[Beerus]

Nadal wouldn't be able to beat 2004 Bogdanovic at Wimbledon the way Federer did.

 

[Beerus]

Do the TTW Awards, guys.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/the-hitlist-talk-tennis-warehouse-2023-awards-nomination-thread.762064/

 

[Hitman]

Some people love to call out trolls in other fanbases but don't have much to say about the trolls in their own fanbase. If most of the trolls are now Djokovic fans then that's because the Nadal trolls ran away with their tail between their legs after the turn of events in 2023, and after being unbearable last year. Lol. Too much tribal thinking on this board and thinking their fanbase is better when each of the big 3 have plenty of trolls to go around.

Yep. Trolls are everywhere. No fanbase is without them. It's all about who's got the leverage to do it.

 

[NoleFam]

Yep. Trolls are everywhere. No fanbase is without them. It's all about who's got the leverage to do it.

Yea but some people on here think Djokovic fans—bad, Nadal fans—good, or any other combination you want to choose. Then when the trolls in their own fanbase are just non-stop ridiculous and beyond irritating, they don't comment on them. All of the big 3, with all they have achieved, have trolls and love to rub it in when they're winning. This board has been like this since I've been here. None of these three fanbases are without fans like that.

 

[Hitman]

Yea but some people on here think Djokovic fans—bad, Nadal fans—good, or any other combination you want to choose. Then when the trolls in their own fanbase are just non-stop ridiculous and beyond irritating, they don't comment on them. All of the big 3, with all they have achieved, have trolls and love to rub it in when they're winning. This board has been like this since I've been here. None of these three fanbases are without fans like that.

Yep. You should have seen it during Federer's dominance here, that was fun times....

Agree though, yes there are plenty of absurd Djokovic trolls that have been banging the pots and pans last few months. But we saw what happened in 2022 also and how it happened. So yeah, no fanbase is without them, unfortunately they come with the warranty.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Yea but some people on here think Djokovic fans—bad, Nadal fans—good, or any other combination you want to choose. Then when the trolls in their own fanbase are just non-stop ridiculous and beyond irritating, they don't comment on them. All of the big 3, with all they have achieved, have trolls and love to rub it in when they're winning. This board has been like this since I've been here. None of these three fanbases are without fans like that.

Yes but coming back to the original topic. Its good that Blonde Blur considers all the criterias in terms of GOAT issue and not just slam count. We have bad apples in all groups who try to drill the debate down to 1 single criteria, be it trolling or not. Tennis doesn't stop for 30+ weeks. All three guys are very old for at least 2017 onwards, so they definitely stopped focusing on non grand slams but I guess the fans are forgetting all the non slam drama we got over the years and now these new guys Rune Alcaraz Sinner will also fight in and out of slams. All these things count. Slams are the most important but these terms like tiebreaker are really stupid. We have to consider the legacy overall and not just about a race in slams or race in number 1s or any other criteria. There are slams, masters , atp finals , olympics and smaller grass tournaments as well. All of them count.

 

[TheAssassin]

Exactly, when Nadal played his last match on tour he was still ahead 22-21.

The rest of the Tour doesn't shut down when Nadal decides to go fishing.

 

[NoleFam]

Yep. You should have seen it during Federer's dominance here, that was fun times....

Agree though, yes there are plenty of absurd Djokovic trolls that have been banging the pots and pans last few months. But we saw what happened in 2022 also and how it happened. So yeah, no fanbase is without them, unfortunately they come with the warranty.

Oh they were bad enough when he wasn't dominating. Federer fans ruled this board back then when I joined and they were the loudest.

Yea Djokovic fans are cutting up now. I'm not going to sit here and sugarcoat that I know some can be annoying, and have been a little over the top. With how Nadal fans acted last year, none of them have some moral authority. It comes with the territory based on who's winning.

 

[nolefam_2024]

The discussion about greatness has descended to the Stephen A type people now who just keep drilling the discussion down to 1 thing. They are not open about any other criteria.
In reality Federer and Nadal seem very close based on their accomplishments. Federer actually holds 11 more titles over nadal, he has 18 grass titles where there is no masters or even 500s till recent times. He has longetivity being in slam semis a dozen more times maybe than nadal. If not for his very obvious chokes, he might still be at the top of most of the records. But he choked and that's why he is disputed at number 2 or 3 now.

 

[soldat]

Djokovic fans are hypocrites, trying to say Fed is ahead of Nadal but they are quick to say 24-22 and at least 3 of each slam. Nadal is 2 slams ahead of Fed and has every GS at least twice.

That’s not true. My ranking is Djokovic > Nadal > Federer and my favorite player is Djokovic.

And Nadal is better than Federer to me not only because of the slam count or career slam, but because Nadal beat Federer in some of the biggest matches, AO 2009 and WC 2008. Of course Federer got his revenge in 2017, but Federer never beat Nadal at FO. Nadal’s h2h record against Federer is also extremely lopsided. So based on their matches I would say Nadal is better.

 

[Hitman]

Oh they were bad enough when he wasn't dominating. Federer fans ruled this board back then when I joined and they were the loudest.

Yea Djokovic fans are cutting up now. I'm not going to sit here and sugarcoat that I know some can be annoying, and have been a little over the top. With how Nadal fans acted last year, none of them have some moral authority. It comes with the territory based on who's winning.

Very true. I think there is a sense of bleakness though that this swing towards Djokovic now is the permanent one, hence the frustration. But these trolls are not really loyal to any fanbase or dare I say it, any player, they just like to rub it in.

 

[NoleFam]

Yes but coming back to the original topic. Its good that Blonde Blur considers all the criterias in terms of GOAT issue and not just slam count. We have bad apples in all groups who try to drill the debate down to 1 single criteria, be it trolling or not. Tennis doesn't stop for 30+ weeks. All three guys are very old for at least 2017 onwards, so they definitely stopped focusing on non grand slams but I guess the fans are forgetting all the non slam drama we got over the years and now these new guys Rune Alcaraz Sinner will also fight in and out of slams. All these things count. Slams are the most important but these terms like tiebreaker are really stupid. We have to consider the legacy overall and not just about a race in slams or race in number 1s or any other criteria. There are slams, masters , atp finals , olympics and smaller grass tournaments as well. All of them count.

Probably because I started watching tennis in the 90s, I value surface distribution, ATP Finals, #1 records, and Slams a lot. It's not just Slams for me because that's not how it was back in the 90s. Recently, the media have made it all about Slams but there's more to tennis than that in my opinion. In the 90s, it was so hard to dominate on all the surfaces.

It's not as difficult today since they changed the grass, slowed down the USO, and took away carpet. However, I always valued being great on the whole tour. That's why for me, I still have Federer ahead because of his #1 weeks, ATP Finals and being better at 2 of the surfaces. It's fine if someone has Nadal ahead based on 2 more Slams and the overall head to head though. It's just my opinion.

 

[NoleFam]

Very true. I think there is a sense of bleakness though that this swing towards Djokovic now is the permanent one, hence the frustration. But these trolls are not really loyal to any fanbase or dare I say it, any player, they just like to rub it in.

Yep. They latch onto who's winning and ride the wave. I've seen fans like that in other sports too. All fanbases have these type of fans.

 

[SonnyT]

Djokovic fans are hypocrites, trying to say Fed is ahead of Nadal but they are quick to say 24-22 and at least 3 of each slam. Nadal is 2 slams ahead of Fed and has every GS at least twice.

Hey watch out, don't generalize! I'm a Djokfan, and always maintain Rafa's ahead, because for much of their careers, Roger couldn't beat Rafa.

 

[Hitman]

Yep. They latch onto who's winning and ride the wave. I've seen fans like that in other sports too. All fanbases have these type of fans.

We saw the constant garbage by the truckload last year from trolls from Nadal's camp, who vanished now.

I get it that the decent fans who stick by their guy have to endure a lot of crap at times, they don't deserve it, but that is simply the way it is.

2022 was very bad yes, but lets not forget the open season on Djokovic for nearly two years when he was out of contention for slams, while Fedal were making out like bandits.

All good fans have had to endure, its simply about who has the leverage as far as the trolls go. I know a few trolls who actually just switched between the big 3 depending on who was on top, I mean, they were attacking the same player that just a few months earlier they were bragging about. Trolls hold no loyalty to any player.

 

[GoatNo1]

i had my own system for many years:

YE#1 = 100p
50 weeks (apr. a year) = 100p (1 week = 2p)
slam = 100p
WTF = OG = 40p
M = 20p
(slam F = 15p)
MM = 5p

bonuses:
NCYGS = 100p
CGS = 100p
GM = 100p
slam record = 100p
weeks record = 100p
YE#1 record = 100p
W% record = 100p
ATP points record = 100p
surface GOAT = 100p
....
if between 2 players
h2h = 100p
better on a single surface = 100p

all under 200-300 is to close to decide but more than 500 is good enough for a safe choice

 

[NoleFam]

We saw the constant garbage by the truckload last year from trolls from Nadal's camp, who vanished now.

I get it that the decent fans who stick by their guy have to endure a lot of crap at times, they don't deserve it, but that is simply the way it is.

2022 was very bad yes, but lets not forget the open season on Djokovic for nearly two years when he was out of contention for slams, while Fedal were making out like bandits.

All good fans have had to endure, its simply about who has the leverage as far as the trolls go. I know a few trolls who actually just switched between the big 3 depending on who was on top, I mean, they were attacking the same player that just a few months earlier they were bragging about. Trolls hold no loyalty to any player.

Yea, I can't disagree with this. Djokovic fans had to suck it up and take it in 2017 to early 2018. We got mud slung our way a lot during that time and ridiculed left and right. Haha. Now the tables have turned but how quickly people forget. This is the way this board is with these fans, and fans of players who have basically rewritten the history books on this sport. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Yea, I can't disagree with this. Djokovic fans had to suck it up and take it in 2017 to early 2018. We got mud slung our way a lot during that time and ridiculed left and right. Haha. Now the tables have turned but how quickly people forget. This is the way this board with these fans, and fans players who have basically rewritten the history books on this sport. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

And we shouldn't have taken it especially during 2015. Federer fans kept boasting ONLY federer can play that well in 30s and Nole will get stopped. Guess they understand very little in tennis. Because the commentators kept saying how young Nole looks.
Even in 2019 they kept the same propaganda, only Federer can be number 1 at age 36, win slam at 36 etc. They are proven to be incompetent in assessing future.
I say simple thing, if federer can do it, so can nole. Always believe in this.

 

[Hitman]

Yea, I can't disagree with this. Djokovic fans had to suck it up and take it in 2017 to early 2018. We got mud slung our way a lot during that time and ridiculed left and right. Haha. Now the tables have turned but how quickly people forget. This is the way this board is with these fans, and fans players who have basically rewritten the history books on this sport. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

Yeah, Djokovic fans are the worst of the worst....how we forget things so quickly here.

Consider this, Djokovic has almost always been chasing and been behind Federer and Nadal, it was not until this year that it actually flipped. These bragging about numbers, yeah, that was what Fedal were doing for years, this year Djokovic fans are doing it, and its simply a tragedy and they are the worst of the worst.

I would honestly prefer that there were no trolls, I'm sure many would, but we all know that is not possible, its a pipe dream, success always attracts these type, no matter who is the one who is making the achievements. You want to breathe in fresh air, then make the effort to go out to the countryside, because if you're in the city, you're breathing in polluted air whether you like it or not.

 

[joekapa]

Statistics wise Nadal, but it's not enough for him to be ahead of Federer in terms of influence.

He is now the 3rd wheel.

 

[jondice]

But its not only you who is talking here. Majority of Rafa fans are talking about only slam count. I give Nadal slight lean over Roger right now because of his masters and OG, but that's when we are taking the entirety of records in account. Not just slams.
Bot brigade like you call it is very informed about tennis history. They are not kids anymore and not trolling. The previous notions that Fedal fans kept for years got challenged since rise of Nole and its coping mechanism calling nolefams kids etc. We have now fans of Raz, those might be kids, Nole is 16 years older to him.

I'm a Rafa fan and Novak is the clear number one of all time. I thought this the second he got to 22. Why? Because he also held nearly all the other records at that time. Slams is by far the number one metric, but the others do count, just not as much.

Winning percentage, head to head, Masters, OG all help bolster Rafa as the clear number two. Even the number one ranking is basically a wash. Both ended the year as the top rated player five times. Fed has the YEC and total weeks at number one. Just not even close to making up for Slams, Masters, OG, winning percentage and head to head.

(I do think when we're talking about these three, it's all so close. What each accomplished is simply awe inspiring. We're really splitting hairs at this point.)

 

[nolefam_2024]

Yeah, Djokovic fans are the worst of the worst....how we forget things so quickly here.

Consider this, Djokovic has almost always been chasing and been behind Federer and Nadal, it was not until this year that it actually flipped. These bragging about numbers, yeah, that was what Fedal were doing for years, this year Djokovic fans are doing it, and its simply a tragedy and they are the worst of the worst.

I would honestly prefer that there were no trolls, I'm sure many would, but we all know that is not possible, its a pipe dream, success always attracts these type, no matter who is the one who is making the achievements. You want to breathe in fresh air, then make the effort to go out to the countryside, because if you're in the city, you're breathing in polluted air whether you like it or not.

And he was behind only because he is the YOUNGEST. The fedal fans never mentioned it. They are like trumpsters.

At the age Nole won 24, Roger was still at 19. Nole also became youngest to reach 20 slams, despite Wimbledon cancellation and dq at usopen. He was already showing he will be the GOAT. He also looked so fresh, Fed never looked like that , and Nadal? Forget about Nadal, he never looked fresh post 2014 outside clay.

 

[NoleFam]

Yeah, Djokovic fans are the worst of the worst....how we forget things so quickly here.

Consider this, Djokovic has almost always been chasing and been behind Federer and Nadal, it was not until this year that it actually flipped. These bragging about numbers, yeah, that was what Fedal were doing for years, this year Djokovic fans are doing it, and its simply a tragedy and they are the worst of the worst.

I would honestly prefer that there were no trolls, I'm sure many would, but we all know that is not possible, its a pipe dream, success always attracts these type, no matter who is the one who is making the achievements. You want to breathe in fresh air, then make the effort to go out to the countryside, because if you're in the city, you're breathing in polluted air whether you like it or not.

Djokovic has been chasing them for years and finally surpassed them, and his fans and trolls alike have let loose and are running rampant. I think they are more tame here compared to Twitter. Lol. Federer fans threw these numbers around for years. For Djokovic fans, it hasn't even been a full year yet. If they are the worst of the worst now, then where are we heading in a year or two?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Djokovic has been chasing them for years and finally surpassed them, and his fans and trolls alike have let loose and are running rampant. I think they are more tame here compared to Twitter. Lol. Federer fans threw these numbers around for years. For Djokovic fans, it hasn't even been a full year yet. If they are the worst of the worst now, then where are we heading in a year or two?

It's permanent shift

 

[Hitman]

And he was behind only because he is the YOUNGEST. The fedal fans never mentioned it. They are like trumpsters.

At the age Nole won 24, Roger was still at 19. Nole also became youngest to reach 20 slams, despite Wimbledon cancellation and dq at usopen. He was already showing he will be the GOAT. He also looked so fresh, Fed never looked like that , and Nadal? Forget about Nadal, he never looked fresh post 2014 outside clay.

Yeah, the point is basically this, these stats and records and numbers were paraded here long before 2023, that's for sure.

 

[Aestheticsaboveallelse]

Honestly it's very close IMO. There are lots of contextual factors to consider which could give good arguments for either. I sometimes go back and forth in my own mind

That being said, 2 slams difference is a lot. With Nadal having more slams, masters and the H2H, I'd say he's ahead. Even if Federer has the weeks at #1 and the YECs.

I don't think there's a lot in it between them though.

This shouldn't be a debate, Federer 6-0 last matches vs Nadal hard and grass. And Nadal hasn't won a set vs Djokovic on hardcourt in 10+ years or something similar to that...

Since all he has is clay and gets severely dominated outside of it he's extremely obviously last place

The only debate is Federer vs Djokovic

 

[Hitman]

Djokovic has been chasing them for years and finally surpassed them, and his fans and trolls alike have let loose and are running rampant. I think they are more tame here compared to Twitter. Lol. Federer fans threw these numbers around for years. For Djokovic fans, it hasn't even been a full year yet. If they are the worst of the worst now, then where are we heading in a year or two?

It's going to get a lot more worse yet, because if Djokovic continues to build on those numbers, we may never see another player who can ever take them away. It's already boarding on the absurd.

 

[NoleFam]

It's going to get a lot more worse yet, because if Djokovic continues to build on those numbers, we may never see another player who can ever take them away. It's already boarding on the absurd.

Yea I'm sure Djokovic fans will only get louder if he keeps going the way that he has been.

 

[Hitman]

Yea I'm sure Djokovic fans will only get louder if he keeps going the way that he has been.

True, but even if he doesn't, unless Nadal can somehow win three slams and Djokovic not win another, just the amount of time Djokovic will be unchallenged at the top will make the noise grow.

 

[NoleFam]

True, but even if he doesn't, unless Nadal can somehow win three slams and Djokovic not win another, just the amount of time Djokovic will be unchallenged at the top will make the noise grow.

Yea and more bandwagoners will become Djokovic fans, so the noise will increase. That's the nature of sports and wanting to be a fan of the best team/player. Some people ain't loyal. Haha.

 

[Neptune]

The post 183 I also read but not sure what new insights it is supposed to give.
We know about that anomaly of Djoko and Fed being mostly on the same half, but as I have shown above it rarely ended in a scenario where one of them met Nadal in the final after having to play the other. Whether Davydenko would have made such a big difference is questionable as well. I refuse to believe officials rigged draws because they were afraid that Davy could upset Nadal ruining the Fedal final lol.

On HC: Fed-Davy 15-2, Davy-Rafa 6-1, Officials clearly pay more attention and hold a different view than you.
Rafa seems to struggle more on hard court than Fed does on clay. He requires every possible advantage to reach the final, and putting Fed and Nole in the same half is just the most glaring aspect. When they manage it in such an absurd manner, it's hard to believe there aren't many more instances like this.
The math of the chart: 23 consecutive heads in coin tosses. What are the odds? And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

BTW your chart is wrong as both Davydenko and Nadal also played in AO 2008 and Davydenko was in Nadal’s half there.

Davydenko after beating Rafa @miami 2008 in straight sets, and before falling out of scope. Davy beat Rafa 5 more times in a row on HC, but all the 6 HC slam draws with both entering, always on opposite side, and Davy would need to pass both Nole and Fed to have a chance to meet Rafa, which of course never happens.

 

[Neptune]

Djokovic fans are hypocrites, trying to say Fed is ahead of Nadal but they are quick to say 24-22 and at least 3 of each slam. Nadal is 2 slams ahead of Fed and has every GS at least twice.

Only propagandists use a single category. LOL

Nole vs Rafa

Slam Titles: 24 vs 22 (F+: 36-30, SF+: 47-38, QF+: 57-47)
YEC: 7 vs 0
Big Titles: 71 vs 59
Weeks@1: 409 vs 209
Peak Season ATP Points: 16585 vs 13030
Top10 Wins: 256 vs 186
ATP Points: 166000 vs 149000
GOAT Points: 1102 vs 885
Achievement ranking points: 141.78 vs 119.66

 

[Neptune]

Yes but coming back to the original topic. Its good that Blonde Blur considers all the criterias in terms of GOAT issue and not just slam count. We have bad apples in all groups who try to drill the debate down to 1 single criteria, be it trolling or not. Tennis doesn't stop for 30+ weeks. All three guys are very old for at least 2017 onwards, so they definitely stopped focusing on non grand slams but I guess the fans are forgetting all the non slam drama we got over the years and now these new guys Rune Alcaraz Sinner will also fight in and out of slams. All these things count. Slams are the most important but these terms like tiebreaker are really stupid. We have to consider the legacy overall and not just about a race in slams or race in number 1s or any other criteria. There are slams, masters , atp finals , olympics and smaller grass tournaments as well. All of them count.

Utilizing a single category is a favorite tactic of propagandists.

 

[GoatNo1]

This shouldn't be a debate, Federer 6-0 last matches vs Nadal hard and grass. And Nadal hasn't won a set vs Djokovic on hardcourt in 10+ years or something similar to that...

Since all he has is clay and gets severely dominated outside of it he's extremely obviously last place

The only debate is Federer vs Djokovic

in which universe it is extremely obvious that rafa is no3 but it is still the question mark between fed and nole!?!?
rafa has many important things over fed while fed has nothing left over nole!

 

[nolefam_2024]

in which universe it is extremely obvious that rafa is no3 but it is still the question mark between fed and nole!?!?
rafa has many important things over fed while fed has nothing left over nole!

Exactly. Fedfans can't compare him to Nole based on stats. He is arguably number 2 but not at all 1.

 

[GoatNo1]

Only propagandists use a single category. LOL

Nole vs Rafa

Slam Titles: 24 vs 22 (F+: 36-30, SF+: 47-38, QF+: 57-47)
YEC: 7 vs 0
Big Titles: 71 vs 59
Weeks@1: 409 vs 209
Peak Season ATP Points: 16585 vs 13030
Top10 Wins: 256 vs 186
ATP Points: 166000 vs 149000
GOAT Points: 1102 vs 885
Achievement ranking points: 141.78 vs 119.66

Nole vs Rafa vs Fed

Slam Titles: 24 vs 22 vs 20 (F+: 36-30-31, SF+: 47-38-46, QF+: 57-47-58)
YEC: 7 vs 0 vs 6
Big Titles: 71 vs 59 vs 54
Weeks@1: 409 vs 209 vs 310
Peak Season ATP Points: 16585 vs 13030
most ATP points: 16950 vs 15390 vs 15495
Top10 Wins: 256 vs 186 vs 223
ATP Points: 166000 vs 149000

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

Djokovic fans are hypocrites, trying to say Fed is ahead of Nadal but they are quick to say 24-22 and at least 3 of each slam. Nadal is 2 slams ahead of Fed and has every GS at least twice.

I have Nadal ahead of Federer too. Chill bro. We don’t all think the same way!

 

[Towny]

This shouldn't be a debate, Federer 6-0 last matches vs Nadal hard and grass. And Nadal hasn't won a set vs Djokovic on hardcourt in 10+ years or something similar to that...

Since all he has is clay and gets severely dominated outside of it he's extremely obviously last place

The only debate is Federer vs Djokovic

I'm a Federer fan, so of course I'd be happy with Federer considered greater. But the fact is, Nadal has more slams, more masters titles, OSG, double career grand slam and the H2H record against Federer. And he actually has a better H2H with Djokovic too.

I think it's super close between Federer and Nadal and I could certainly see an argument in Federer's favour, but to say there's no debate between them is too far

 

[GoatNo1]

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

On HC: Fed-Davy 15-2, Davy-Rafa 6-1, Officials clearly pay more attention and hold a different view than you.
Rafa seems to struggle more on hard court than Fed does on clay. He requires every possible advantage to reach the final, and putting Fed and Nole in the same half is just the most glaring aspect. When they manage it in such an absurd manner, it's hard to believe there aren't many more instances like this.
The math of the chart: 23 consecutive heads in coin tosses. What are the odds? And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

Yea cool but they can rig the draws all they want, for the question who faced the toughest/weakest competition the relevant thing is how it turned out. Rafa played the other two 32 times in slam, Novak played the others 35 times and Fed 31 times.
Rafa won 21 of his matches, Novak 18 and Fed 10.
Outside clay (as this is so important for you folks) there were two instances where Rafa had to play one of them in a final and the other one before the final (Wimbledon 2007 and AO 2012), and two instances where he had to face one of them in a final who had to go through the other one before (USO 10 and 11) so no apparent advantage for him in the sense that they wore each other out befire the final.

Davydenko after beating Rafa @miami 2008 in straight sets, and before falling out of scope. Davy beat Rafa 5 more times in a row on HC, but all the 6 HC slam draws with both entering, always on opposite side, and Davy would need to pass both Nole and Fed to have a chance to meet Rafa, which of course never happens.

You didn’t specify that in your post. You just posted a chart of the slams outside clay from AO 2008 till USO 2011 and said (and showed with arrows) that the six HC slams AO 10,11 and USO 08,09,10,11 would be the six out of the ones shown where Nadal and Davy both played and always being on different halfs. If you say it like that it is just wrong. Now you change it and say after Miami 2008. Yeah I am sure this one Bo3 match made officials panic and decide to starting with USO 2008 (a time where Rafa was leading the H2H with Davy 3-1) rig the draws such that Rafa can avoid Davy lol. Rafa lost to a lot of people on HC at that time. What about Tsonga who actually beat him in a HC slam? Were draws also rigged here?

 

[Razer]

Tennis on the court between 2 ATG players is judged by

01. Slams
02. H2H
03. Rank 1 Statistics

Nadal has beaten Federer on 2 out of these 3 parameters, so on the court Federer now trails Nadal. Off court if you add Brand value, then it is a different thing. However on the court, greatness is tilted a bit more in Nadal's favour statistically.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Yea cool but they can rig the draws all they want, for the question who faced the toughest/weakest competition the relevant thing is how it turned out. Rafa played the other two 32 times in slam, Novak played the others 35 times and Fed 31 times.
Rafa won 21 of his matches, Novak 18 and Fed 10.
Outside clay (as this is so important for you folks) there were two instances where Rafa had to play one of them in a final and the other one before the final (Wimbledon 2007 and AO 2012), and two instances where he had to face one of them in a final who had to go through the other one before (USO 10 and 11) so no apparent advantage for him in the sense that they wore each other out befire the final.

You didn’t specify that in your post. You just posted a chart of the slams outside clay from AO 2008 till USO 2011 and said (and showed with arrows) that the six HC slams AO 10,11 and USO 08,09,10,11 would be the six out of the ones shown where Nadal and Dalby both played and always being on different halfs. If you say it like that it is just wrong. Now you change it and say after Miami 2008. Yeah I am sure this one Bo3 match made officials panic and decide to starting with USO 2008 (a time where Rafa was leading the H2H with Davy 3-1) rig the draws such that Rafa can avoid Davy lol. Rafa lost to a lot of people on HC at that time. What about Tsonga who actually beat him in a HC slam? Were draws also rigged here?

He made the same “argument” in another thread.

On HC: Fed-Davy 15-2, Davy-Rafa 6-1, Officials clearly pay more attention and hold a different view than you.
Rafa seems to struggle more on hard court than Fed does on clay. He requires every possible advantage to reach the final, and putting Fed and Nole in the same half is just the most glaring aspect. When they manage it in such an absurd manner, it's hard to believe there aren't many more instances like this.
The math of the chart: 23 consecutive heads in coin tosses. What are the odds? And this is only the tip of the iceberg.



Davydenko after beating Rafa @miami 2008 in straight sets, and before falling out of scope. Davy beat Rafa 5 more times in a row on HC, but all the 6 HC slam draws with both entering, always on opposite side, and Davy would need to pass both Nole and Fed to have a chance to meet Rafa, which of course never happens.

This is irrelevant. Davy wasn’t even making it to Fedovic the vast majority of the time and when he did RAFA didn’t even win the title. You can’t argue that they were “saving him” when there was no saving going on. So, let’s go through each event you previously listed:

Well, as a starter:
Davydenko after beating Rafa @miami 2008 in straight sets, and before falling out of scope. Davy beat Rafa 5 more times in a row on HC, but all the 6 HC slam draws with both entering, always on opposite side, and Dave would need to pass both Nole and Fed to have a chance to meet Rafa:

USO08, qf Fed, sf Nole - Lost in the 4R to Muller so didn’t play either of them.
USO09, qf Fed, sf Nole - Lost to Soderling in the 4R so didn’t play either of them.
AO10, qf Fed, sf Nole - Lost to Ol’ Rog in the QF, but RAFA didn’t win the title so irrelevant.
USO10, qf Nole, sf Fed - Lost in the 2R to Gasquet so didn’t play either of them.
AO11, qf Nole, sf Fed - Lost to Mayer in the 1R so didn’t play either of them
USO11, R3 Nole, sf Fed - Lost to Joker in the 3R but RAFA didn’t even win the title so irrelevant.

So, even going event by event we can see that Davy had no bearing on RAFA’s HC GS success. The fact of the matter is he almost always underperformed in BO5. And a big part of that was his lack of fitness which he’d be the first to admit he didn’t empathize as much as he should have. He was also a perennial choker on the biggest stage.

 

[Neptune]

Yea cool but they can rig the draws all they want, for the question who faced the toughest/weakest competition the relevant thing is how it turned out. Rafa played the other two 32 times in slam, Novak played the others 35 times and Fed 31 times.
Rafa won 21 of his matches, Novak 18 and Fed 10.
Outside clay (as this is so important for you folks) there were two instances where Rafa had to play one of them in a final and the other one before the final (Wimbledon 2007 and AO 2012), and two instances where he had to face one of them in a final who had to go through the other one before (USO 10 and 11) so no apparent advantage for him in the sense that they wore each other out befire the final.

"they can rig the draws all they want", then what's the point of continuing the argument?

 

[Neptune]

He made the same “argument” in another thread.

This is irrelevant. Davy wasn’t even making it to Fedovic the vast majority of the time and when he did RAFA didn’t even win the title. You can’t argue that they were “saving him” when there was no saving going on. So, let’s go through each event you previously listed:

So, even going event by event we can see that Davy had no bearing on RAFA’s HC GS success. The fact of the matter is he almost always underperformed in BO5. And a big part of that was his lack of fitness which he’d be the first to admit he didn’t empathize as much as he should have. He was also a perennial choker on the biggest stage.

Fed is Davy's master and it must be depressing to be on Fed's side so often.

Let's simplify: This thread is about Fed vs Rafa.
On hardcourt, it's widely acknowledged that Fed is much stronger than Rafa. When we look at encounters against Nole in hardcourt Slams:

• Before the final: 9 times for Fed, 0 for Rafa
• At the final: 2 times for Fed, 5 for Rafa

What does this mean? Fed has to face the king of hardcourt, Nole, 9 times before the final and lost 6 of those. In contrast, Rafa has a much easier path to the final, boosting his chances of winning Slam titles.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Fed is Davy's master and it must be depressing to be on Fed's side so often.

Let's simplify: This thread is about Fed vs Rafa.
On hardcourt, it's widely acknowledged that Fed is much stronger than Rafa. When we look at encounters against Nole in hardcourt Slams:

• Before the final: 9 times for Fed, 0 for Rafa
• At the final: 2 times for Fed, 5 for Rafa

What does this mean? Fed has to face the king of hardcourt, Nole, 9 times before the final and lost 6 of those. In contrast, Rafa has a much easier path to the final, boosting his chances of winning Slam titles.

The thread is about RAFA vs Ol’ Rog so it’s irrelevant to even bring up Davy in the first place. Now you’re just moving the goalposts once it was debunked that Davy wasn’t keeping RAFA from winning GS on HC. Again this is irrelevant because RAFA still had to play one of Fedovic to win a GS on HC.

Starting with AO 09 since that’s when RAFA won his first HC GS.
AO 09 - Joker didn’t even make it to Ol’ Rog since he lost to Rawduck in the QF.

USO 09 - RAFA had to play Delpo who was actually a tougher opponent for him that year beating him in Miami and Toronto. Delpo even went on to win the title that year.

AO 10 - Joker lost to Tsonga in the QF.

USO 10 - Given their respective forms RAFA would have beaten them back to back anyway.

AO 11 - RAFA didn’t even make the SF so irrelevant.

USO 11- Nadovic were the top 2 seeds so Fed had to fall on someone’s side. Had he fallen to RAFA’s side I can’t see him winning anyway since he had a huge mental block vs him at the time.

AO 12 - RAFA had to play them back to back and was essentially 1 BH away from pulling off back to back wins.

USO 12 - RAFA didn’t play but if he did he would have fallen to either one of Fedovic’s side since he was seeded losers than they were.

AO 13 - RAFA missed due to recovery from the knee injury/the flu but would have most likely been seeded #4 and been on Joker’s side.

USO 13 - He drew Ol’ Rog in the QF and then played Joker in the F.

 

[Neptune]

The thread is about RAFA vs Ol’ Rog so it’s irrelevant to even bring up Davy in the first place. Now you’re just moving the goalposts once it was debunked that Davy wasn’t keeping RAFA from winning GS on HC. Again this is irrelevant because RAFA still had to play one of Fedovic to win a GS on HC.

Starting with AO 09 since that’s when RAFA won his first HC GS.
AO 09 - Joker didn’t even make it to Ol’ Rog since he lost to Rawduck in the QF.

USO 09 - RAFA had to play Delpo who was actually a tougher opponent for him that year beating him in Miami and Toronto. Delpo even went on to win the title that year.

AO 10 - Joker lost to Tsonga in the QF.

USO 10 - Given their respective forms RAFA would have beaten them back to back anyway.

AO 11 - RAFA didn’t even make the SF so irrelevant.

USO 11- Nadovic were the top 2 seeds so Fed had to fall on someone’s side. Had he fallen to RAFA’s side I can’t see him winning anyway since he had a huge mental block vs him at the time.

AO 12 - RAFA had to play them back to back and was essentially 1 BH away from pulling off back to back wins.

USO 12 - RAFA didn’t play but if he did he would have fallen to either one of Fedovic’s side since he was seeded losers than they were.

AO 13 - RAFA missed due to recovery from the knee injury/the flu but would have most likely been seeded #4 and been on Joker’s side.

USO 13 - He drew Ol’ Rog in the QF and then played Joker in the F.

debunked? LOL
Rafa is Davy's pigeon on HC and never proves he can beat Davy at HC slam, officials clearly pay more attention and hold a different view than you and too scared to let Rafa try.

How many times does Fed have to surpass Nole to reach the HC Slam final? How many times does Rafa need to pass Nole to get to the HC Slam final?

 

[The Blond Blur]

debunked? LOL
Rafa is Davy's pigeon on HC and never proves he can beat Davy at HC slam, officials clearly pay more attention and hold a different view than you and too scared to let Rafa try.

How many times does Fed have to surpass Nole to reach the HC Slam final? How many times does Rafa need to pass Nole to get to the HC Slam final?

Yeah debunked since he wasn’t even “going through Fedovic” lol. The fact that you were trying to say they were a road block for him when he didn’t even make it to them in 4/6 events you listed is just a self-own. Davy basically underperformed every chance he got in BO5. RAFA beat Joker in multiple HC GS Fs anyway. He even beat him on fast HC in the Olympic SF. There plenty of players who were just as much of a threat to him on HC during that point in his career. Tsonga and Murray in 08 played incredible in both GS SFs for example. Delpo played better than Joker in the USO 09 etc.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

It's close really.

Nadal is ahead in

- Slams
- M1000
- Olympic Gold
- H2H

Federer in

- YEC
- Weeks at #1

I consider the things Federer is ahead more important than the ones Nadal is ahead (bar Slams, obviously), but the most important thing is that he is ahead by a BIG margin there. 6 YEC to 0 is what tips the balance in his favor in the end if you put a gun to my head.

 

[Neptune]

Yeah debunked since he wasn’t even “going through Fedovic” lol. The fact that you were trying to say they were a road block for him when he didn’t even make it to them in 4/6 events you listed is just a self-own. Davy basically underperformed every chance he got in BO5. RAFA beat Joker in multiple HC GS Fs anyway. He even beat him on fast HC in the Olympic SF. There plenty of players who were just as much of a threat to him on HC during that point in his career. Tsonga and Murray in 08 played incredible in both GS SFs for example. Delpo played better than Joker in the USO 09 etc.

Of course he loses any hope in Fed-Nole double masters side, total different if in Rafa pigeon side.

It's amusing to witness Rafans arguing despite the clear evidence presented in the chart illustrating blatant rigged draws.

 

[The Blond Blur]

Of course he loses any hope in Fed-Nole double masters side, total different if in Rafa pigeon side.

It's amusing to witness Rafans arguing despite the clear evidence presented in the chart illustrating blatant rigged draws.

What’s amusing is you trying to say that Fedovic saved RAFA by beating Davy for him thus allowing him to win GS on HC more easily…when he wasn’t even making it to them in the first place lol. If he was in RAFA’s side of the draw he wouldn’t be making it to him either. Most of the time he was losing to far weaker players before the QF as I pointed. Whereas all you did was show that he could have “potentially” played them which means nothing. Your “argument” doesn’t stand up to the slightest amount of scrutiny. The fact is Fedovic were tougher opponents in BO5 than Davy was and RAFA beat them multiple times in non-clay Fs before they ever managed to beat him once in a clay BO5 match. And even when one of them did it, it came when he was past his prime.

You’re just a RAFA hater my guy.