Neptune
Hall of Fame
Resorted to name calling, LOL
Davy is Fed's pigeon and Rafa is Davy's pigeon on HC, sorry, the officials who rig HC slam draws disagree with you.
Federer vs Nadal Who Is Ahead As Of Now?
- Thread starter Neptune
- Start date
Resorted to name calling, LOL
Davy is Fed's pigeon and Rafa is Davy's pigeon on HC, sorry, the officials who rig HC slam draws disagree with you.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Name calling? If you think calling an obvious hater a hater is name calling then all I can say is lol.
You don’t have an argument dude. Davy wasn’t losing to Fedovic like you were trying to lead people to believe. He was losing to far lower ranked players before ever reaching them. The 2x he did play them RAFA didn’t even win the title and only made the F in 1 of them. So again, Davy’s placement in the draw didn’t help RAFA in the slightest.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
When you are saying Davy is so bad in HC bo5, the 2 years leading to the rigging chart, 2006-07, he did way better than Rafa on HC slam despite blocked 3/4 of them by his master Fed. Get your record right first.
People need to see the slam draw rigging, and believe whatever they want to.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Dude you can’t even keep your argument straight anymore. The starting point you originally picked was 2008 because of Miami 08 F somehow being the deciding factor for the organizers to start “rigging the draws”. Fun fact, RAFA beat Davy in the 06 YEC on indoor HC and was 3-1 against him when you started mentioning schlem draws starting in 08. There was nothing indicating that he’d be a huge road block for RAFA heading into the 08 USO. Now you’re moving the goalposts to 06-07…when he had a losing H2H vs RAFA on HC. Like I said, in 4/6 events you listed Davy didn’t even make it to Fedovic. Out of those 2 meetings RAFA didn’t win either event, and only made the F in 1 of them. So again, if Davy was losing to lower ranked players before the QF then it’s irrelevant where he’s placed in the draw. If he was in RAFA’s side he’d lose before he could make it to him anyway based on his actual results.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Dude you have comprehension issue. The reference to 06-07 was brought up only to counter your claim that Davy is always weak in hardcourt Slams. The point is that Rafa, despite being ranked #2, struggles on hardcourt Slams and seemingly requires huge assistance from rigged draws to reach the final. After a dominant win over Rafa in Miami 08, the idea was to place Davy on the opposite side as well.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
The only one with comprehension issues is you lol. You don’t have a point or an argument. You said that the organizers were putting Davy in Fedovic’s side because he was a threat to RAFA because of the Miami 08 F…even though the HC H2H at that time was 1-1. And that Fedovic were “saving him against Davy”…In the years you listed (08-11) Davy almost always underperformed and failed to even make it to one of Fedovic in 4/6 events. The 2x he did make it to them RAFA didn’t even win the title and only made the F 1x. So again, his placement in the draw was irrelevant to RAFA’s HC GS success. Now you’re pivoting to 06-07 because he had better success on HC in BO5 than RAFA did…but he had a losing H2H vs RAFA in that timeframe.
Face it man, your “argument” has no legs to stand on. It’s irrelevant if the organizers are “rigging the draws” when the player they’re supposedly trying to help doesn’t even need saving from the supposed boogeyman. If Davy was in RAFA’s side of the draw in 08-11 he’d just lose to some other lower ranked player like he did when he was in Fedovic’s side.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
You know what I think of Federer, honestly if I was a Maestronian I'd probably feel he should be ahead too. But after the epic scenes of the miracle in Melbourne, and Nadal beating Novak AGAIN to hold down his turf in Paris, you gotta give him credit. The difference between he and Rafa's slam count is that Nadal held off Novak enough at his pet slam and Federer didn't. I wish he had too lol trust me
Neptune
Hall of Fame
A new dominant win holds more significance, and their HC H2H keep piling up making Rafa a pigeon. Most players would likely underperform on the same side as their master and outperform when on the same side as their pigeon.
Organizers are rigging the draws, all 12 placements of Nole and all 6 placements of Davy prove you wrong. And that is just tip of the iceberg.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Ned has a yacht. Does Fed have a yacht?
We can settle this debate right now.
We can settle this debate right now.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
No it doesn’t lol. The fact that you think a BO3 win was some magic catalyst for “rigging the draws” to have Fedovic protect RAFA from Davy is just you projecting a delusional conspiracy theory. You’re assuming what their intentions were or that they even had intentions in the first place. You’re also assuming that Davy would have magically performed better if he was placed somewhere else in the draw. You’re literally making stuff up at this point. There’s simply no proof on your end to make that claim.
The fact of the matter is Davy didn’t make it to Fedovic in 4/6 events taking place between 2008-2011 (hand picked by you) and only made it to them 2x (in events where RAFA didn’t even win the title) proves you’re wrong. The fact that he lost in the early rounds to vastly inferior players a majority of the time means it was irrelevant where you placed him in the draw. He simply wasn’t even making it far enough in the tournament for it to matter.
You’re basically saying that Fedovic were body guards protecting RAFA from a bully who never even bothered to showed up to fight in the first place lol.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
From Miami08 to Doha11, Davydenko 6-0 making Rafa his pigeon on HC, but all the 6 HC slams they both participated, Davy is always on the same side as his master Fed, never on the same side as his pigeon Rafa. That's merely an additional aspect of the 12 consecutive non-clay Slam draws with blatant rigging. Everyone needs to see it and draw their own conclusions.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
The work this board puts in to tear Nadal down is staggering
cute too lol
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Let’s actually go over the H2H leading up to each of these events.
USO 08 - 3-1 advantage RAFA, 1-1 on HC. Yet this is where you think the organizers started “rigging the draws to make it easier on him”. This is such a massive reach that it’s not even funny. Davy ended up losing in the 4R to Muller who was a qualifier. He didn’t make it to either of Fedovic so this is irrelevant.
AO 09 - 3-2 advantage RAFA, 2-1 on HC advantage Davy but the new win came in Bercy when RAFA retired with a knee injury (and subsequently shut down the rest of his season). Davy was absent anyway so this is irrelevant.
USO 09 - 4-2 advantage RAFA, 2-1 on HC advantage Davy but there was no new wins for him leading up to the USO. Davy lost to Sod in the 4R before even making it to Ol’ Rog. So it was irrelevant which side he was on. RAFA played Delpo in the SF (who had already beaten him 2x on HC including a few weeks earlier in Toronto). Based on your logic, the organizers should have put him in Fed’s half to make it easier for RAFA. At that point in time Delpo was the bigger threat to him (which proved to be accurate based on how he performed in the SF-F compared to how Joker performed in his SF).
AO 10 - 4-4, 5-1 on HC advantage Davy. This was 1 of the 2x Davy actually made it to Fedovic in a HC GS event…but RAFA retired with a knee injury against Murray in the same round. So it was irrelevant where he was placed here as well since RAFA didn’t win the title.
USO 10 - 4-5 advantage Davy, 5-1 on HC advantage Davy but no new wins leading up to the USO. Davy ended up losing to Gasquet in the 2R so he didn’t even make it to either of Fedovic. It was irrelevant which side of the draw he was on.
AO 11 - 4-5 advantage Davy, 6-1 on HC advantage Davy. Davy ended up losing in the very 1R to Mayer so he played neither of Fedovic. It was irrelevant where he was placed in the draw.
USO 11 - 4-5 advantage Davy, 6-1 on HC advantage Davy but once again no new win leading up to the USO. Davy lost to Joker in the 3R, but for the 2nd (and last time) he played 1 of Fedovic RAFA didn’t go on to win the title. So it was irrelevant.
You would have a point (and I have to emphasize that you don’t) if RAFA was winning HC GS titles by having Fedovic beat Davy for him. But that never happened. In all of his HC GS title runs Fedovic never took out Davy for him when Davy was still an active player.
AO 09 - Davy wasn’t even there.
USO 10 - He lost to Gasquet in 2R.
USO 13 - What’s this? Davy was placed in RAFA’s half and was on pace to play him in the 3R?…Oh wait, he lost to Dodig in the 2R. So much for your theory of him being motivated to play his “pigeon” in a BO5 HC match
You’re just pushing an easily debunked agenda.
BenBen
New User
Federer's level varies in matches more than any of the big three. This is due to his preference for defensive tennis accompanied with his backhand issues. Rafa and Djoker have the most consistent groundstrokes of all time, whats more impressive is Nadal's success despite service, as clutch as it may be at times. Imagine if Nadal had Novak's serve for instance, goodness. 2009 Australia is all you need to see followed closely by the French 2011 final.
The one thing which sinks fed is that Rafa killed him head to head. I think with Djokovic being such a clear 1 takes the shine of what fed has over nadalFed vs Rafa
Slam Titles: 20 vs 22 (F+: 31-30, SF+: 46-38, QF+: 58-47)
Total Slam Points: 70855 vs 64600
Note: On Djokovic's strongest surface, Federer faced him nine times in hardcourt Slam before the final, while Nadal faced him zero times. I believe that kind of advantage in the Slam draw alone is worth more than two Slam titles.
YEC: 6 vs 0
Masters: 28 vs 36
OG: 0 vs 1
CGS: 1 vs 2
3-Slam Season: 3 vs 1
Total Titles: 103 vs 92
Big Titles: 54 vs 59
Weeks@1: 310 vs 209
Consecutive Weeks@1: 237 vs 56
Win%: 81.91% vs 82.96%
Top5 Wins: 104 vs 93
Top10 Wins: 223 vs 186
H2H: 16 vs 24
ATP Points: 164000 vs 149000
GOAT Points: 924 vs 885
Achievement ranking points: 131.0 vs 119.66
One chart depicting 12 consecutive non-clay Slam draws highlights the absurdity of the rigging, just tip of the iceberg. (addons: From Miami08 to Doha11, Davydenko 6-0 making Rafa his pigeon on HC, but all the 6 HC slams they both participated, Davy is always on the same side as his master Fed, never on the same side as his pigeon Rafa.)
The math: 23 consecutive heads in coin tosses, Rafa truly requires assistance, particularly on hardcourts, to reach the finals.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
A lot of vitriol over who is in second place?
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Because you keep on digging. @The Blond Blur and myself have shown you ad nauseam now that the supposed rigging of the draws didn’t have an impact on Nadal’s competition at slams. He played Novak and Fed roughly the same time as they played the other big two, and it very rarely happened that one of them had to play the other and then Rafa afterwards.
As for Davy: he mostly didn’t even make it far enough to make a difference and when he did Nadal didn’t win anyways.
Your idea that a Bo3 loss in Miami 2008 during a time where Rafa lost to all kind of folks on HC sparked the officials to rig the draws because they were afraid that Davy would beat him is outright laughable tbh, as is the idea that Davy lost earlier because the outlook of having to play his master Federer made him lose motivation.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Well Fed is 6 years older, if he was one year older he may well have held off Novak. On balance I think Nadal's first 14 slams were tougher than Federer's on average. But I think the last 6 years have swung it too far the other way now. I don't rate the 2022 AO sorry aha. I remember Nadal fans seriously arguing 2022 Nadal > 2017 Nadal at the AOYou know what I think of Federer, honestly if I was a Maestronian I'd probably feel he should be ahead too. But after the epic scenes of the miracle in Melbourne, and Nadal beating Novak AGAIN to hold down his turf in Paris, you gotta give him credit. The difference between he and Rafa's slam count is that Nadal held off Novak enough at his pet slam and Federer didn't. I wish he had too lol trust me
It was a great mental victory and definitely epic but the quality of play throughout the tournament wasn't impressive. Like I said fine if you put Nadal ahead just dont go all Ultronian on me and act like there's no way to argue for Federer.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
Wilander said it and you got link, fed said it and you got link and here is youtube video vhere nole said it. All 3 of them was both no1 and a slam champions. And all of them did a exactly comparison of no1 and slam.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
And Sampras and Agassi said the opposite. I mean we all witness how crazy those folks are about the slam record, nobody of them cries when missing the YE#1, but they were often crying for lost slam finals. Also, look how much fuss is made on TV or in tennis forums about slam record as compared to YE#1. So I wouldn’t read too much into statements of Fed that were given in a specific context. I cannot help but to think the reason Djokovic fans are out of the sudden pushing weeks at No.1 is because here Djoko’s record is even more unlikely to be broken in the next years than his slam record.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
no, sampras said his highest accomplishment was his 6 YE#1, and please come up with the link where sampras or agassi exciplit say that slam is more important than no1? sampras has even sacrificed an AO to reach up to his last YE#1! So he has also shown in practice that YE#1 was more important för him than a slam!
what_army
Professional
I voted for Federer being ahead but it’s close. What makes me think Fed is slightly ahead is:
- more variety of wins in different surfaces, whereas Nadal’s trophies are more concentrated in clay (and no relevant indoor resume);
- 6 YECs to none;
- more weeks as #1.
On the other hand Fed doesn’t have Olympic gold in singles but I don’t make much of Federer having less masters 1000 since Halle should be a 1000 and probably isn’t simply due to politics (otherwise no one would want to play in Queens, which as we all know, doesn’t have the structure to ever be a masters 1000).
The h2h also isn’t enough to make me change my opinion since Federer was consistently getting to F and SF when losing to Nadal, but Nadal was often losing to the field whenever Federer won.
Overall it’s very close, I think solid arguments for which one has a superior career can be construed.
- more variety of wins in different surfaces, whereas Nadal’s trophies are more concentrated in clay (and no relevant indoor resume);
- 6 YECs to none;
- more weeks as #1.
On the other hand Fed doesn’t have Olympic gold in singles but I don’t make much of Federer having less masters 1000 since Halle should be a 1000 and probably isn’t simply due to politics (otherwise no one would want to play in Queens, which as we all know, doesn’t have the structure to ever be a masters 1000).
The h2h also isn’t enough to make me change my opinion since Federer was consistently getting to F and SF when losing to Nadal, but Nadal was often losing to the field whenever Federer won.
Overall it’s very close, I think solid arguments for which one has a superior career can be construed.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
As I told you, Agassi says it in his book. In my German version it is page number 335 first page of chapter 18 if that helps. I can send you a screenshot per pm if it helps, you would likely need to use deepl though or just trust me on that. He also said it in an interview in German sport magazine in 1995.
As for Pete, he literally established the slams above all narrative. There are several interviews and reports about him from the 90s that he was setting breaking the slam record as his main goal (I can provide the links if you want). Now in hindsight he might say that the 6 consecutive YE#1 are his biggest achievement but it is also the only record which hasn’t been broken yet, so no surprise that he says this.
During his playing career he never acted that way, he was even known for skipping or semi-tanking smaller tourneys and focusing on the big ones. He also didn’t sacrifice the AO 99. He exhausted himself to defend YE#1 in 1998 and then it happened that he decided to skip the AO 99 to rest but it was not a conscious decision at the time he chased the No.1.
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nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
The poll is as close as it gets here. But there are some members who were earlier not ready to even discuss this topic.
I think result shows it all. Nadal is slightly ahead of Federer overall but there can be a case made for both of them.
I think result shows it all. Nadal is slightly ahead of Federer overall but there can be a case made for both of them.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
no, result, as for now, shows that it is prety even between the 2 of them. both are under 50%.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Results are inconclusive.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
More than half don't think Rafa is greater than Fed, and vice versa.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
You are now just twisting results because of your hatred of Nadal.
Results sat more than half think Federer is not greater than Rafa, only.
The ones including myself who chose equal are not counted.
Rafa has slight lean over fed. That's what most of the people think based on the votes here.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
no.... think of 95% think they are equal, 3% fed and 2% rafa? would it mean that most think fed is greater?
MOST are just if it is MORE than 50%. 45% is not the most becose 55% doas not think that! and i dont hate any player. i am more anti fed than anti rafa becose of feds many coments about nole in the past. i too think it is preaty even but if i have to choos one i would choos fed.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
How do you get these numbers
From the votes it's 10% who think they are equal, 42 who think fed is ahead and 48 who think Nadal is ahead.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
ity means that less than the half doas not think that rafa is ahead!
you said MOST and most is at least more than 50%! But when you say most, you usully mean a lot more than 50%!
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
This is just technical bs which I don't want to be involved in. Nadal is slightly ahead based on polls.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Please focus on that chart, I may dig into more evidence in the future.
By the end of 2007, despite consistently holding the #2 ranking every week since mid-2005 and finishing the year at #2 for three consecutive years, Rafa still couldn't reach the semifinals in HC Slams. The organizers appear to be growing desperate, as evident in the chart depicting absurd rigging.
Rafa truly requires huge assistance, particularly on HC slam, to reach the finals.
GoatNo1
Hall of Fame
which polls?
in almost every poll on the net it is like nole >>>> fed >>> rafa:
before 400 weeks, 40 masters, 7 WTFs and 8 YE#1a: 59%, 29%, 12%
12,5K votes
Rafael Nadal thrashed by Novak Djokovic and Roger Federer in tennis GOAT debate
Express Sport readers have delivered their verdict on tennis' Big Three.
www.express.co.uk
Who is the GOAT in Tennis? - Federer, Nadal or Djokovic
Who is the GOAT in Tennis is a question that tennis fans have debated for many years with most agreeing that it will be Federer, Nadal or Djokovic.
toomanyrackets.com
Roger Federer 17.52% (438 votes)
Rafa Nadal 10.44% (261 votes)
Other:0.4% (10 votes)
Total Votes: 2,500
Eurosport
Oct 6, 2022 when rafa was a slam leader!!!
@eurosport
If you could only pick one to be the GOAT, which one are you picking? Over to you...
Rafael Nadal 20.7%
Roger Federer 28.2%
Novak Djokovic 51.1%
4,699 votes·Final results
69%, 20%, 9%
Votes > 105k
62%, 26%, 12%
etc...etc....etc...
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Even without considering the significant assistance Rafa receives from Slam draw rigging and political interference, it's reassuring to observe that Rafans' desperate propaganda has less influence outside TTW.
Fed by far.
Nadal clay goat.
Nadal most weeks as number 2 to Fed and Novak.
Ultimate Tennis Statistics - Most Weeks at ATP No. 2
Most Weeks at ATP No. 2 at Ultimate Tennis Statistics
www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com
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mike danny
Bionic Poster
IMO, what hurts Nadal in the GOAT debate is his struggle to win at 3/4 slams over the last 13 years. 2013 USO came 3 years after his last non-clay slam, 2017 USO 4 years, 2019 USO 2 years and 2022 AO 2.5 years.
I'm not discounting clay in case that wasn't clear, but I don't think the greatest ever should win titles at 3 of the 4 slams so infrequently.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
I don’t have Nadal as the greatest ever. At the same time I think the greatest ever cannot trail a guy from his own generation in both slam number and (meaningful) H2H. Therefore the only one with a legit case is Djokovic and believe me, for the most part of their careers he was my least favourite of the three, but it is what it is the numbers are on his side and he has the least flaws of them.
borg number one
Legend
Nadal ahead of Federer at this point. Good debate, but I think the head to head will be difficult to argue against even if it’s weighted towards clay.
Sport
G.O.A.T.
By that logic, you shouldn't make much of Nadal having less ATP finals, since the ATP finals should rotate and be played both on indoor clay and indoor grass (not only indoor hard).
Otherwise, you'd be displaying a double standard.
"I want better surface distribution across ATP tournaments".
If you want better surface distribution across ATP tournaments, you should want it in all cases, not only when it favors Federer.
OK, you want some Masters 1000 on grass because you want better surface distribution across ATP tournaments. By that logic, you should also want the ATP finals to rotate surfaces. After all, indoor is a condition, not a surface. Indoor can be played on hard, clay and grass. The ATP finals should be played one year on indoor grass, another year on indoor clay and the next year on indoor hard, and be rotating surfaces each year. Otherwise, you'd be displaying a double standard, by which you'd only support better surface distribution accross ATP tournaments in case it favors Federer.
And you dismissing Nadal having more Slams, better Slam distribution (Double Career Grand Slam > Single Career Grand Slam), more Big Titles, more Masters 1000 and a superior H2H is unobjective to say the least.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
It makes most sense to me. Federer has won what 10 titles on grass. He is just a man out of time. He is amazing incredible on grass.
what_army
Professional
I don’t think it makes a difference, Nadal’s appalling resume in indoor speaks for itself.
There are a total of zero grass m1000. Every year you see many top100s playing Surbiton, Eastbourne, Nottingham, Manchester to prepare whilst profiting close to £0, given the lack of opportunities in the ATP calendar to play in grass. This is by far a more pressing matter than rotating YEC surfaces.
It’s very debatable that Nadal has a better slam distribution. He has too many RG and too few Wimbledons/AOs. Plus he has a lot of early round exits at Wimbledon whereas Fed has a lot of finals and SFs at RG. I addressed the H2H in my earlier post, I don’t make much of it (especially when since 2017 Federer is up 6-1, with the loss being that windy 2019 RG final).
Phoenix*
Professional
Fed is greater on hard
Fed is greater on grass
Nadal is greater on clay
Fed is greater on majority of the tour, Nadal is greater on the "who cares" part of it. No contest.
Nadal's 21 slams are also below Fed's 20. Would anyone rather have 2 RGs or 1 USO & 1 Wimbledon? Definitely not.
And the h2h belongs to Fed as well, 2-1 by surface. Nadal is 6th of all time as his weeks at #1 show, Fed is 2nd.
Fed is greater on grass
Nadal is greater on clay
Fed is greater on majority of the tour, Nadal is greater on the "who cares" part of it. No contest.
Nadal's 21 slams are also below Fed's 20. Would anyone rather have 2 RGs or 1 USO & 1 Wimbledon? Definitely not.
And the h2h belongs to Fed as well, 2-1 by surface. Nadal is 6th of all time as his weeks at #1 show, Fed is 2nd.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
AO22 legit made some of yall crazy af
Phoenix*
Professional
There was no AO in 2022.AO22 legit made some of yall crazy af
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Good
ShowStealer
Rookie
Nadal for 1 simple reason
