alexio
Legend
6 delpo...and 7?So that’s Fed, Djoker, Murray, Stan, Soderling, and...
6 delpo...and 7?So that’s Fed, Djoker, Murray, Stan, Soderling, and...
I don't think he's even at Soderling level. Can't see him delivering such stunning performances against 2009 Nadal and 2010 Federer.Thiem is at best Soderling level*. Federer is miles ahead. His performance from 2005-07 and his 2011 form indicate that he played his best at his peak which was good enough to be an overwhelming favourite after Rafa in any clay tournament and was good enough to beat Djoker in his best year. At close to 28 and arguably at or slightly beyond his peak, Thiem hasn't yet displayed that level.
*As of now.
FonginiSo that’s Fed, Djoker, Murray, Stan, Soderling, and...
Gotta be someone I’m missing, right? Oh well, whoever I’m forgetting probably isn’t that good on the surface anyway, eh? Eh?
Was thinking Zeballos but that's a good pick.Fongini
I perhaps will have to agree - it's just that Thiem has arguably been the second best clay courter for a few years now. Soderling certainly had a better mental toughness imo. I mean to the original question, I think Freddy is way better...I don't think he's even at Soderling level. Can't see him delivering such stunning performances against 2009 Nadal and 2010 Federer.
He has been the second-best claycourter but if we're talking absolute peak, then we'll have to leave consistency off the table.I perhaps will have to agree - it's just that Thiem has arguably been the second best clay courter for a few years now. Soderling certainly had a better mental toughness imo. I mean to the original question, I think Freddy is way better...
Yip, agree. No arguments from me on this. Frankly I am still not clear on Fred vs Nole. The debate perhaps lies there. Thiem simply doesn't figure.He has been the second-best claycourter but if we're talking absolute peak, then we'll have to leave consistency off the table.
Yeah, it's unfortunate. Do hope he'll snag an RG at some point, though.Yip, agree. No arguments from me on this. Frankly I am still not clear on Fred vs Nole. The debate perhaps lies there. Thiem simply doesn't figure.
Thiem is at best Soderling level*. Federer is miles ahead. His performance from 2005-07 and his 2011 form indicate that he played his best at his peak which was good enough to be an overwhelming favourite after Rafa in any clay tournament and was good enough to beat Djoker in his best year. At close to 28 and arguably at or slightly beyond his peak, Thiem hasn't yet displayed that level.
*As of now.
I don't think he's even at Soderling level. Can't see him delivering such stunning performances against 2009 Nadal and 2010 Federer.
Fully agree.It's easily Federer. Troubled a prime/peak Rafa more at RG, while Thiem has only won 1 set and got destroyed by old Rafa.
Thiem's BH hasn't appeared to have helped him much at RG against Nadal either.
We're only counting his peak at RG though, not clay.Federer's peak on clay would be something like Rome 2006, and he was a whisker from winning it against a prime Nadal. Any genuine tennis annalyst think that Thiem would have done the same? He's been lucky to have an old Nadal who is obviously way past his best, yet doesn't even have a clay Masters to his name.
I am not going to bash your opinion, I just want you to respectfully elaborate on yiur thoughts![]()
EXTRAORDINARY ! NO PLAYER CAN HURT NADAL ON THIS COURT LIKE THIEM !
Nadal is lucky that Thiem is not fully rested. Otherwise, this set would’ve been over!
How the hell is Thiem retrieving some of these balls
This is insane.
Damn Dominic is free flowing so far. Matching Rafa stroke for strroke.
Thiem's played so far:
1 hour 45 minutes Thursday
1 hour 30 minutes Friday
2 hours 35 minutes Saturday
_____________
This makes me feel he won't be disadvantaged in the final as much from a physical perspective.
He's young and it's like a Master's tournament for him at this pt.
Woah. He set that up with a great return, but that was a killer forehand to end the point.
Great stuff from Thiem. But the commentators are right... Nadal is definitely taking a lot off his shots trying to drag out the points. It's obvious to the naked eye. Good on Thiem for taking advantage of that situation for his own benefit.
But eventually, the grind is going to start to settle into Thiem's legs.
This is like Nadal watching younger version of himself. Great speed and coverage by Thiem.
Talk about a long day at the office.
Every rally...
Thiem is better than Nadal so far. Barely making any errors.
Thiem's variety has improved as well. Not just bashing hard and harder. Dropper here, some slices. Impressive in keeping up with Nadal so far.
Thiem making it competitive so far but it's a very physical match and I don't think he'll have the stamina
This is insane tennis!!!!
WTF this is exceptional from both
This is one of the best starts to a slam I've seen in years.
i love this ****
this is modern day clay court tennis, folks!!!
Thiem showing he's come to play. Impressive stuff!
Fred, by a solid margin too.
Timmie is one of the most overrated players I've ever seen on TTW.
Soderling's level in '09 and '10 is frankly overrated. I recently revisited both of his matches (you know which ones) and didn't see anything that would have y'all going gaga over vs. Norman's or Delpo's (to name but two most recent comparisons) top stuff if you had nothing but the videos to go by. It's almost certainly not a coincidence that Robin never came close to joining the 60% Club even in those two years - 55.8% and 56.3% of games won on clay in '09 and '10 respectively (both excluding the WTC which is all but an exo), 55.2% and 56.1% excluding post-RG events* - while both Norman and Delpo flirted with if not even surpassed the 60% mark not once but twice.
In short Sod ain't winning a FO with those numbers in any era. Even Thiem boasts better overall #s, and while I'd still probably back Robin for that peak-for-peak showdown that's really not much of an endorsement to begin with.
*The ATP's stats for Sod's '09 season are a mess. Everything from his 3rd round vs. Nico is missing (thankfully I was able to reconstruct the #s by detective work), ditto the WTC stats (which again tell us next to nothing, but they're 23/26 on serve and 17/26 on return if anyone cares) which are still included in both the Leaderboard and the Player Stats (these two don't always match - yeah I know).
Behold TTW , Your selective amnesia, Thiem was matching and overpowering Nadal at RG Final before getting tired, THIS IS FROM EVERY FANBASE.
Reread that thread ,everyone here is agreeing Thiem is outplaying Nadal but won't have anything left in tank.
lol
Tim playing at 500% barely manages to split two sets with oldal then dies. And this is supposed to be your core argument? ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahabahahahahahahahahahaha!
Teem is overrated
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As I said I won't bicker with non believers, let's talk next year.
Er... uh... OP?The overrating of the "Prince of clay" continues![]()
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Which RG win was better, Fed beating Djokovic 2011 in 4 or Thiem barely edging out Djokovic 2019 in 5 ? The answer to that question should be obvious. 2005-11 Federer takes any version of Timmy to the cleaners at RG and pretty much everywhere else.
Lol. Your man couldn't get more than two wins against Nadal in 15 years. Someone did that in 3.Waiting for Tim to beat 35yearoldal so you could jump for joy and rant how boaty he is, fraudovic would never, huh? Sad!
Lol. Your man couldn't get more than two wins against Nadal in 15 years. Someone did that in 3.
Yes. Against Nadal on clay? YES. Sorry to hurt you in your feels.Fognini > fraud, yes? Objective analysis, bro!!
Yes. Against Nadal on clay? YES. Sorry to hurt you in your feels.
Pistol, of course:
2004-06 was probably Fed's best stretch on dirt. Won 59.8%, 60.8% and 59.2% of his games (TBs included) respectively and never again approached the all-important 60% mark except in '09 when he won 59.6%. He did post a respectable 58.0% in '07 - good, but usually not good enough to win you a FO vs. quality opposition.
Clay-court tennis remains a young man's game, and Rafa being a big (statistical) exception has as much to do with his kingsmanship as with today's godawful depth on the surface.
Yes Soderling is perhaps best remembered for his RG exploits. He did have that bazooka forehand going for him though. The main problem I see with current evaluations is the lack of classic grass or clay courters. Peak for peak I would still place Thiem alongside Soderling....time will tell if he does put in a special performance to remove all doubt.Soderling's level in '09 and '10 is frankly overrated. I recently revisited both of his matches (you know which ones) and didn't see anything that would have y'all going gaga over vs. Norman's or Delpo's (to name but two most recent comparisons) top stuff if you had nothing but the videos to go by. It's almost certainly not a coincidence that Robin never came close to joining the 60% Club even in those two years - 55.8% and 56.3% of games won on clay in '09 and '10 respectively (both excluding the WTC which is all but an exo), 55.2% and 56.1% excluding post-RG events* - while both Norman and Delpo flirted with if not even surpassed the 60% mark not once but twice.
In short Sod ain't winning a FO with those numbers in any era. Even Thiem boasts better overall #s, and while I'd still probably back Robin for that peak-for-peak showdown that's really not much of an endorsement to begin with.
*The ATP's stats for Sod's '09 season are a mess. Everything from his 3rd round vs. Nico is missing (thankfully I was able to reconstruct the #s by detective work), ditto the WTC stats (which again tell us next to nothing, but they're 23/26 on serve and 17/26 on return if anyone cares) which are still included in both the Leaderboard and the Player Stats (these two don't always match - yeah I know).
Lol - like for the tweetTeem is overrated
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those numbers for clay season ae utterly and completely useless in this regard seeing as Soderling didn't play anywhere near that level in that events before RG.
Soderling was stunning in both those matches, I wouldn't use any other lesser word to describe.
What’s even sadder is this tweet could be real.![]()
disagree.
2005-07.
Fed in 04 did not play Monte Carlo. He did in 07.
Also stats would've probably got worse had he progressed further at RG in 04. But he wasn't 100% comfortable on the big central court there in 04. It was in 05 where he did get comfortable.
Yes Soderling is perhaps best remembered for his RG exploits. He did have that bazooka forehand going for him though. The main problem I see with current evaluations is the lack of classic grass or clay courters. Peak for peak I would still place Thiem alongside Soderling....time will tell if he does put in a special performance to remove all doubt.
...
Wait 1-2 more years. It may well come true when he's got nothing better to do...
OK, then let's look at his RG runs only. I see he won 55.9% of his games in '09 and 58.8% in '10. (Post-'90) history tells us 55.9% is decidedly mediocre for a supposedly serious FO contender, and while 58.8% is better it's still not what you'd expect from an ATG run.
So we're supposed to accept that Soderling somehow raised his game to his utmost limit and possibly beyond for those two matches alone but somehow abandoned it in the finals where he needed it most, or maybe neither was this godlike performance it's often touted as. Which is more likely?
Besides I'm not just basing my assessment on the numbers. Again if you were to blur these players and gave the viewers nothing but the footage they'd have a hard time telling what was so special about these matches, at least not any more than what you'd see from the likes of Norman, Delpo and other recent big hitters who for one reason or another failed to go all the way. And you know what? That applies to a lot of great CC matches. You use the word "stunning" but that's not the kind of description you'd want to extract from observers if you were looking to win RG. I know I'm saying this for the 93648th time but CC tennis is almost a different game which rewards grinding and patience more than power and sheer brilliance, and while there are exceptions like Guga and Stan that's exactly what they are, exceptions to the rule.
Now could it still be the case that Robin was one of these exceptions at least for those two matches? Perhaps, but I don't see it. Not for this surface at any rate, at least not any more so than the dozens of big-time performances we've seen from other contenders over the years.
That's the usual narrative, that Fed wasn't all that comfortable on red clay till '05. Of course the tiny hitch is that he had won '04 Hamburg in a comprehensive fashion and was considered one of the top contenders going into RG. Even if you grant that Fed wasn't at his best vs. Guga this still strikes me as a rather convenient post hoc rationale, especially since his GW% for the season drops all of 0.2% to 59.6% when you remove his stats from Gstaad (which he won).
Also '07 was when I was beginning to get back into tennis and I still remember journos mumbling that Fed was starting to look vulnerable around that time. And if you go a little further back to '04-(pre-RG) '06 and check out some of the articles touting Fed's chances on clay they most likely included the caveat that Fed had yet to reach a FO final. Of course that alone doesn't mean Fed somehow and suddenly entered his peak when he finally reached the final in '06 or even his 1st SF in '05. Many a great dirtballer would've waited so long to reach his "peak" with an ATG blocking his way to a FO final, which is most likely what happened with Fed.
Still think '04-'06 was his true peak on dirt, though I wouldn't object if you included '07.
Soderling probably hit the consistently biggest ball ever off both wings with his feet set and was capable of mammoth serving too. Lacked the athleticism that Delpo (or Stan) had which made him vulnerable if you could get him moving, which both Nadal and Federer were too flat to do in their losses and got hit straight off the court, but not so in their wins, in which they were absolutely locked in and very sharp. Not sure Delpo could as impressively wipe out a lesser but still great opponent as Soderling, but he'd definitely do better against a top tier elite opponent (obviously we have the 09 SF/F right in front of us). Still comfortably more impressive than anything Thiem has or will ever sniff, who hasn't done either of those things. Let's not also forget that he wiped out Davydenko and Ferrer in 2009, beat Cilic handily in 2010 (ok not that impressive), and showed enough discipline and heart to win his semis in 5 against some fellow big hitters in good form. 6 quality/impressive wins in 2 years at RG, wake me up when Thiem gets his first (not counting elbowvic or 32 year old windovic).Soderling's level in '09 and '10 is frankly overrated. I recently revisited both of his matches (you know which ones) and didn't see anything that would have y'all going gaga over vs. Norman's or Delpo's (to name but two most recent comparisons) top stuff if you had nothing but the videos to go by. It's almost certainly not a coincidence that Robin never came close to joining the 60% Club even in those two years - 55.8% and 56.3% of games won on clay in '09 and '10 respectively (both excluding the WTC which is all but an exo), 55.2% and 56.1% excluding post-RG events* - while both Norman and Delpo flirted with if not even surpassed the 60% mark not once but twice.
In short Sod ain't winning a FO with those numbers in any era. Even Thiem boasts better overall #s, and while I'd still probably back Robin for that peak-for-peak showdown that's really not much of an endorsement to begin with.
*The ATP's stats for Sod's '09 season are a mess. Everything from his 3rd round vs. Nico is missing (thankfully I was able to reconstruct the #s by detective work), ditto the WTC stats (which again tell us next to nothing, but they're 23/26 on serve and 17/26 on return if anyone cares) which are still included in both the Leaderboard and the Player Stats (these two don't always match - yeah I know).
Soderling probably hit the consistently biggest ball ever off both wings with his feet set and was capable of mammoth serving too. Lacked the athleticism that Delpo had which made him vulnerable if you could get him moving, which both Nadal and Federer were too flat to do in their losses and got hit straight off the court, but not so in their wins, in which they were absolutely locked in and very sharp. Not sure Delpo could as impressively wipe out a lesser but still great opponent as Soderling did twice but he'd definitely do better against a top tier elite opponent (obviously we have the 09 SF/F right in front of us). Still comfortably more impressive than anything Thiem has or will ever sniff. Let's not also forget that he wiped out Davydenko and Ferrer in 2009, beat Cilic handily in 2010 (ok not that impressive), and showed enough discipline and heart to win his semis in 5 against some fellow big hitters in good form. 6 quality/impressive wins in 2 years at RG, wake me up when Thiem gets his first (not counting elbowvic or 32 year old windovic).
There's a gulf of difference between Hamburg conditions and normal red clay due to the bounce and dampness which makes it play more like a slow low bouncing HC (obviously you still need to move well on clay to play on it, but that was never Federer's problem), indoors even sometimes. Up until reaching the 2005 RG semi the only good result Federer had on red clay was reaching the 01 QF (beating absolutely no one important, needing a miracle to escape the 2R, and getting summarily schooled by Corretja) and beating a lackadaisical/sick Ferrero in the 03 Rome SF and then playing one of the worst matches anyone's ever seen in the F (with tough competition from his two straight absolute disasters in the first round of the French as a top 10 player). Was still able to win Hamburg thrice in that period.That's the usual narrative, that Fed wasn't all that comfortable on red clay till '05. Of course the tiny hitch is that he had won '04 Hamburg in a comprehensive fashion and was considered one of the top contenders going into RG. Even if you grant that Fed wasn't at his best vs. Guga this still strikes me as a rather convenient post hoc rationale, especially since his GW% for the season drops all of 0.2% to 59.6% when you remove his stats from Gstaad (which he won).
Well those two are just far superior and reliable ballstrikers.Lots of conjecturing happening upthread.
Still, JMDP and Söd outpeaking Thiem seems fairly clear. He doesn't seem to possess demonstrably less gift for clay tennis than them but just isn't tactically sound or comfortable in the clutch. I see Thiem as a career underperformer due to this mental weakness.
Observation 1: Obviously, Federer winning RG 2009 without facing Nadal is not an argument supporting a higher clay level at RG. Thiem without Rafa was the favorite to win the RG 2017, RG 2018 and RG 2019 finals.
Interesting stat there - though its a shame that the stat is available from only the 90's. I would have loved to see what the earlier claycourters were like in this department. Thiem I feel, hasn't really brought out his best on the surface, especially at RG.and yet the guy has struggled to win a mere 30% of his return games on dirt when truly elite dirtballers clear or at least flirt with the 40% mark. That's simply not gonna be good enough vs. most RG fields regardless of era or conditions 'cause he can't compensate for that with a fairly comfy service game a la '09 Fed.
Observation 1: Obviously, Federer winning RG 2009 without facing Nadal is not an argument supporting a higher clay level at RG. Thiem without Rafa was the favorite to win the RG 2017, RG 2018 and RG 2019 finals.