Federer was no rival of Nole

SonnyT said:
If Djokovic hadn't won those 5 slams, Fed would've won them. Fed was young and firm enough to win them. Agreed?
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that has nothing to do really with their rivalry, if anything, it only goes to show the lack of level in the field, thing that djokovic profited a lot of when rafa and fed were with physical problems, and has continued profiting until a real good player has appeared, and honestly, if you really watch the brand of tennis the big 3 has delivered since the beginning, novak was always the less talented, he has worked his ass off to be competitive against fed and rafa and finally started to take the edge after their peak passed.
 
TearTheRoofOff said:
You're caring way to much about how the end result (specifically in slams it seems) might have affected his image or whatever, rather than what actually went down in terms of adversarial contestation, which really should matter as a priority. One can easily troll this list in a way that appreciates Fed's place as a worthy rival:

USOpen 2010 - didn't matter (lol). Nadal was too strong Who cares? Fed held 2 match points. That looks like the efforts of a worthy adversary.
AO 2011 - Not even a set lost No sets lost but was a break down in at least 2 of them from memory. Highly competitive straight setter.
RG 2011 - Biggest win of Roger's vs Novak and did dent a bit of his aura. Yup. Decked peak Nole on his best ever run.
USO 2011 - Nole won the whole thing Who cares? See US 10, only this time it was to go 2-1 against Nole in his peakiest season. Worthy rival, duh.
RG 2012 - Inconsequential Agree lol
Wimbledon 2012 - Possible but Murray has not even lost a set vs Nole Are we really going down the road of diminishing Fed's impact by downrating peak Nole to sub-Murray? 4D Chess move.
Wimbledon 2014 - Couldn't stop Nole 5 sets, highly competitive. Age gap clearly starting to make more of a difference.
Wimbledon 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole Best Nole on grass, still competitive for 2 sets, Fed could have been 2-0 up.
USOpen 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole Still a fairly competitive match, 23454 whiffed BPs
AO 2016 - Couldn't stop Nole 'Best Nole level ever.' Still lost a set vs 34 year old knackered knees Fed.
Wimbledon 2019 - Couldn't stop Nole You know the drill by this point. You're the luckiest bunch of bandwagoners imaginable.
AO 2020 - Couldn't stop Nole ROFLMAO.

To say nothing of annulling the rivalry near enough pre 2011, the quintessential MEME take.
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Wait we are bandwagoners and not fedfans? What is the difference.

Also luckiest is some sort of negative for you. I think Nole was mentally stronger but also lucky and nothing bad in being lucky.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Nadal fhdtl and slice backhands can give Nole fits.
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Sure but in the end Nadal vs Novak was always a battle of attrition and a matter of who had more stamina and Novak is the stamina GOAT, the result was decided there itself.

With Federer he had plan B as well, he had lot of tricks, his only weakness was slightly age related and heavily mental toughness related, this is what buried him vs Nole.
So if they are all aged same I will count on Federer to beat Novak more than Nadal can.

Djokovic is like boa constrictor who chokes you during rallies, only Federer can take time away from Novak to counter that and beat him, the Bull doesn't have that kind of ability.
 
Fedfans keep insisting Federer and Djokovic weren't rivals. Then what's the name of the fellow who takes 5 slams from you?

If Fed had taken those 5, he would have 9 slams in the 10's. Nadal had 10 slams in the 10's.
 
Ok ttw how about this way.

The moment Nadal became injured around AO2014, Nole had his biggest results. 18 big finals in a row. 4 slams in a row. Peakest season of all time.

All of this while fed was in the draw. In fact fed lost 3 times in a row during Noleslam.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Ok ttw how about this way.

The moment Nadal became injured around AO2014, Nole had his biggest results. 18 big finals in a row. 4 slams in a row. Peakest season of all time.

All of this while fed was in the draw. In fact fed lost 3 times in a row during Noleslam.
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But in 2011 Bull was his peak and he was busy playing Beta role to Novak who was alpha. It was Federer who beat Djokovic once and came close to winning again, so why was Bull so useless? That is the question which we need to ask, Bull was same in 2011 as he was in 2010, but the new Novak's emergence shocked him and he was clueless next 14-15 months until RG 2012 when he regained some confidence and adjusted to the new Novak. Federer did not have such problems despite being older than Nadal/Nole. That raises serious doubts on Nadal.
 
Razer said:
But in 2011 Bull was his peak and he was busy playing Beta role to Novak who was alpha. It was Federer who beat Djokovic once and came close to winning again, so why was Bull so useless? That is the question which we need to ask, Bull was same in 2011 as he was in 2010, but the new Novak's emergence shocked him and he was clueless next 14-15 months until RG 2012 when he regained some confidence and adjusted to the new Novak. Federer did not have such problems despite being older than Nadal/Nole. That raises serious doubts on Nadal.
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The problem I guess might be Fed's and Novak's strengths are similar and whoever was the best at that time won all matches save a few.

While Rafa and Nole had to adapt to play each other and had many ups and downs vs each other.
 
TearTheRoofOff said:
You're caring way to much about how the end result (specifically in slams it seems) might have affected his image or whatever, rather than what actually went down in terms of adversarial contestation, which really should matter as a priority. One can easily troll this list in a way that appreciates Fed's place as a worthy rival:

USOpen 2010 - didn't matter (lol). Nadal was too strong Who cares? Fed held 2 match points. That looks like the efforts of a worthy adversary.
AO 2011 - Not even a set lost No sets lost but was a break down in at least 2 of them from memory. Highly competitive straight setter.
RG 2011 - Biggest win of Roger's vs Novak and did dent a bit of his aura. Yup. Decked peak Nole on his best ever run.
USO 2011 - Nole won the whole thing Who cares? See US 10, only this time it was to go 2-1 against Nole in his peakiest season. Worthy rival, duh.
RG 2012 - Inconsequential Agree lol
Wimbledon 2012 - Possible but Murray has not even lost a set vs Nole Are we really going down the road of diminishing Fed's impact by downrating peak Nole to sub-Murray? 4D Chess move.
Wimbledon 2014 - Couldn't stop Nole 5 sets, highly competitive. Age gap clearly starting to make more of a difference.
Wimbledon 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole Best Nole on grass, still competitive for 2 sets, Fed could have been 2-0 up.
USOpen 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole Still a fairly competitive match, 23454 whiffed BPs
AO 2016 - Couldn't stop Nole 'Best Nole level ever.' Still lost a set vs 34 year old knackered knees Fed.
Wimbledon 2019 - Couldn't stop Nole You know the drill by this point. You're the luckiest bunch of bandwagoners imaginable.
AO 2020 - Couldn't stop Nole ROFLMAO.

To say nothing of annulling the rivalry near enough pre 2011, the quintessential MEME take.
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Was wondering when the age excuse would come in. We saw Novak put up a 5 set struggle against someone 16 years younger than him just a few days ago. I don't think any of us can honestly claim that Federer was disadvantaged by a measley 6 year age gap anymore.
 
He was the only one to actually trouble and beat peak Djokovic. If he wasn't a rival, then what would you call Nadal?
 
What we need to keep in mind here is that Federer was two aces away, USO 2011 and W 2019 from very likely keeping the slam lead, and with Djokovic still chasing.

Federer and Nadal and Djokovic were career rivals from their first match to their last match.
 
If Djokovic beats up Alcaraz 1-2 more times in slams and Alcaraz also goes on to win 15-18 slams then Djokovic's legacy will be cemented as the best even more.

Battling next gen ATG 16 years younger is out of the blue.
 
Kralingen said:
2019 YEC loss took the year end #1 away from him…
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Sweet Darth fed revenge.

You would think it has a massive role in djokers career. He beat fed at slams in huge moments.

Replace those with lesser players and you lessen djoker.

I mean we have scoffed at most of djokers slams lately . But no one can call fed weak competition.
 
Kralingen said:
2019 YEC loss took the year end #1 away from him…
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One of those times when Roger's benevolence reached its limits and he decided to show Nole his place in the world. Perhaps he was upset after Wimbledon, having expected Nole give him that one after the many slam matches he'd gifted over to him over the years.
 
Holmes said:
Was wondering when the age excuse would come in. We saw Novak put up a 5 set struggle against someone 16 years younger than him just a few days ago. I don't think any of us can honestly claim that Federer was disadvantaged by a measley 6 year age gap.
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Djokovic didn't lose Wimbledon 2023 because of his age, as much as some folks will want to say to put up a narrative. He lost because Alcaraz was just a little better on the day.
 
Hitman said:
Djokovic didn't lose Wimbledon 2023 because of his age, as much as some folks will want to say to put a narrative. He lost because Alcaraz was just a little better on the day.
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And he himself was just a tad off. That's all it takes sometimes.
 
Federev said:
I remember after Wimby ‘19 Lub said that Fed was the best player in the world even at 38 and implied he was so close to “solving” Novak - like he had gained the upper hand against Rafa - he just needed to believe it.

I think that YEC match gave Fed belief again - after that heartbreaking Wimby - that he really could beat Novak again - as he did.

He was probably really excited about the future.

Unfortunately his knees did not share his excitement.
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Exactly, that's what sucked about Wimb 2019, that he didn't get a chance for redemption afterwards.
 
Holmes said:
And he himself was just a tad off. That's all it takes sometimes.
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That is all it is. I am not going to take the easy excuse path here and say he lost it because all of a sudden he was old. No, he was perfectly fine for that match, he simply came out second. CA was just a bit better.
 
Holmes said:
One of those times when Roger's benevolence reached its limits and he decided to show Nole his place in the world. Perhaps he was upset after Wimbledon, having expected Nole give him that one after the many slam matches he'd gifted over to him over the years.
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Nole did his best to gift him at Wimbledon tbf.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Nole became a true contender after 2010 RG in slams. Since then he was never bothered by Federer at all. Let's take a look at all their slam matches.

USOpen 2010 - didn't matter. Nadal was too strong
AO 2011 - Not even a set lost
RG 2011 - Biggest win of Roger's vs Novak and did dent a bit of his aura
USO 2011 - Nole won the whole thing
RG 2012 - Inconsequential
Wimbledon 2012 - Possible but Murray has not even lost a set vs Nole
Wimbledon 2014 - Couldn't stop Nole
Wimbledon 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole
USOpen 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole
AO 2016 - Couldn't stop Nole
Wimbledon 2019 - Couldn't stop Nole
AO 2020 - Couldn't stop Nole

In a whole decade Federer dented Nole for probably just 1 slam.

Even Murray has had more impact. 2 slam finals won. Stretched to five in RG2015
Thiem - Stopped in RG 2019 where he had real chance for 4 in a row
Wawrinka - Stopped 3 times point blank and once while injured
Nadal - Stopped time after time. USO 2010, RG2012, RG 2013, USO 2013, RG 2014, RG 2020, RG 2022. In all these matches its very very possible that without Nadal, Nole would have won the slams. So around 5/6 slams of Nole are taken away from Nadal.

Nadal1--621x414.jpg




novak-djokovic-roger-federer-us-open_3350863.jpg







How much will Federer matter in Novak's career?
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Isn't any six years younger all time great supposed to dominate the older one? And even then he lost to Federer 2011 RG, should've lost to him at USO, lost to him at Wimbledon, should've lost to near 40 yr old at Wimbledon 2019, and got decimated by near 40 yr old in 2019 ATP Finals, not to mention 2014 Shanghai and 2015 Cincinnatti
 
Kralingen said:
Ah yes. Even better actually.

11-7 slam H2H - iconic rivalry
11-6 slam H2H - not a rivalry

This is the sort of thing you could only ever read on TTW.
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Lol wth

It's 7-11 for Rafole and out of that 10 matches are at RG. Everyone knows it's iconic rivalry.

And 11-6 for fedkovic across all surfaces. Nole just dominated the heck out of it..
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Wait we are bandwagoners and not fedfans? What is the difference.

Also luckiest is some sort of negative for you. I think Nole was mentally stronger but also lucky and nothing bad in being lucky.
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Nice try.

RE the second part, I think the margin of victory is probably comparable to the margin of clutch, though a relatively greater gap seems to be interpreted by most. Big things from little things is an attractive escalation.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Nole became a true contender after 2010 RG in slams. Since then he was never bothered by Federer at all. Let's take a look at all their slam matches.

USOpen 2010 - didn't matter. Nadal was too strong
AO 2011 - Not even a set lost
RG 2011 - Biggest win of Roger's vs Novak and did dent a bit of his aura
USO 2011 - Nole won the whole thing
RG 2012 - Inconsequential
Wimbledon 2012 - Possible but Murray has not even lost a set vs Nole
Wimbledon 2014 - Couldn't stop Nole
Wimbledon 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole
USOpen 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole
AO 2016 - Couldn't stop Nole
Wimbledon 2019 - Couldn't stop Nole
AO 2020 - Couldn't stop Nole

In a whole decade Federer dented Nole for probably just 1 slam.

Even Murray has had more impact. 2 slam finals won. Stretched to five in RG2015
Thiem - Stopped in RG 2019 where he had real chance for 4 in a row
Wawrinka - Stopped 3 times point blank and once while injured
Nadal - Stopped time after time. USO 2010, RG2012, RG 2013, USO 2013, RG 2014, RG 2020, RG 2022. In all these matches its very very possible that without Nadal, Nole would have won the slams. So around 5/6 slams of Nole are taken away from Nadal.

Nadal1--621x414.jpg




novak-djokovic-roger-federer-us-open_3350863.jpg







How much will Federer matter in Novak's career?
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Federer mattered a lot for Novak that's why he was so motivated to play his best roger compared to others

But yes, federer gave only two defeats in slams to Djokovic from 2010 onwards.
Losing 2 matches from 40-15 up is just disaster.

Agree with most of you nachiket. Where r u from. Which town
 
roysid said:
Federer mattered a lot for Novak that's why he was so motivated to play his best roger compared to others

But yes, federer gave only two defeats in slams to Djokovic from 2010 onwards.
Losing 2 matches from 40-15 up is just disaster.

Agree with most of you nachiket. Where r u from. Which town
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Thank you. Mumbai.
 
He was. As much as Connors was to Lendl/McEnroe. Relative importance of their respective wins would go something like this:

07 AO ~ 20 AO
07 USO ~ 15 USO
08 USO ~ 2015 W
09 USO ~ 2016 AO
12 W ~ 08 AO

Sure Fraud has 2011 RG, but it's clear that far lesser players were putting and end to Fraud's winning streaks in a far weaker era, and more importantly, on fair and non fraudulent conditions, which is why 10 USO, 11 AO, 11 USO, 12 RG, 14 W, 19 W more that override whatever phony advantage Fraud got from such trickery.

Kralingen said:
2019 YEC loss took the year end #1 away from him…
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I thought this myth had died out already. Apparently not. In reality, Djoko lost it way earlier. Cinci SF is to blame, and RR vs Thiem to a much lesser extent.
 
Razer said:
Sure but in the end Nadal vs Novak was always a battle of attrition and a matter of who had more stamina and Novak is the stamina GOAT, the result was decided there itself.

With Federer he had plan B as well, he had lot of tricks, his only weakness was slightly age related and heavily mental toughness related, this is what buried him vs Nole.
So if they are all aged same I will count on Federer to beat Novak more than Nadal can.

Djokovic is like boa constrictor who chokes you during rallies, only Federer can take time away from Novak to counter that and beat him, the Bull doesn't have that kind of ability.
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Think fed has less chances than nadal to beat djokovic at the same age. Nadal has the most consistent offensive weapon ever which is his buggy whip which has time and time again troubled novak. fed has no such weapon against novak.
 
Biotic said:
I thought this myth had died out already. Apparently not. In reality, Djoko lost it way earlier. Cinci SF is to blame, and RR vs Thiem to a much lesser extent.
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I mean, everything is to blame obviously, YE #1 is decided all year. It could just as easily be his loss to RBA in Miami or Kohli in Indian Wells.

But at the time of their RR match, which was the 3rd, Djokovic was 1-1. He would’ve advanced to the SFs with a win, which could’ve obviously given him 200 more points and then the potential to gain enough to win YE #1.

So yes him losing to Federer literally was the match that eliminated him from YE #1.
 
Watch The Ball said:
Think fed has less chances than nadal to beat djokovic at the same age. Nadal has the most consistent offensive weapon ever which is his buggy whip which has time and time again troubled novak. fed has no such weapon against novak.
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Federer has his forehand which is a weapon on fast courts. He bageled Novak at Cincinatti, Novak looked clueless.
On Fast courts Roger is the King, nobody beats him if they are aged same buddy.
 
Razer said:
Federer has his forehand which is a weapon on fast courts. He bageled Novak at Cincinatti, Novak looked clueless.
On Fast courts Roger is the King, nobody beats him if they are aged same buddy.
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fed's forehand is not as destructive as nadal's forehand on clay consistently imo. Fed's forehand has been emulated to some extent. nadal's forehand has not even fed has admitted this.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Nole became a true contender after 2010 RG in slams. Since then he was never bothered by Federer at all. Let's take a look at all their slam matches.

USOpen 2010 - didn't matter. Nadal was too strong
AO 2011 - Not even a set lost
RG 2011 - Biggest win of Roger's vs Novak and did dent a bit of his aura
USO 2011 - Nole won the whole thing
RG 2012 - Inconsequential
Wimbledon 2012 - Possible but Murray has not even lost a set vs Nole
Wimbledon 2014 - Couldn't stop Nole
Wimbledon 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole
USOpen 2015 - Couldn't stop Nole
AO 2016 - Couldn't stop Nole
Wimbledon 2019 - Couldn't stop Nole
AO 2020 - Couldn't stop Nole

In a whole decade Federer dented Nole for probably just 1 slam.

Even Murray has had more impact. 2 slam finals won. Stretched to five in RG2015
Thiem - Stopped in RG 2019 where he had real chance for 4 in a row
Wawrinka - Stopped 3 times point blank and once while injured
Nadal - Stopped time after time. USO 2010, RG2012, RG 2013, USO 2013, RG 2014, RG 2020, RG 2022. In all these matches its very very possible that without Nadal, Nole would have won the slams. So around 5/6 slams of Nole are taken away from Nadal.

Nadal1--621x414.jpg




novak-djokovic-roger-federer-us-open_3350863.jpg







How much will Federer matter in Novak's career?
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Djokovic hasn’t even won 50% of the points he played vs. Federer. The rivalry was extremely close and a few points here and there and things are turned greatly.

From 2006 to end of 2010
  • Federer led 13-6
  • 1.14 dominance ratio (not counting Davis Cup beating)
  • won 51.8% of all points (over 52% if you count Davis Cup beating).
  • 14 of these matches took place after Djokovic had made his first slam final. 12 of these matches took place after Djokovic had already won a slam (13 if we want to count the match at the 2008 Australian open itself).
From 2011 to end of 2019 (13 matches played in 2011 and 2015, Djokovic‘s best years; 8 matches were in 2015 alone and Federal was 34–35 years old.
  • Djokovic was 20-10
  • 1.03 dominance ratio
  • Won 50.6% of all points
Older wFederer, between the ages of 30 and 38 played Djokovic 30 times during Djokovic‘s peak years and in those 30 matches, Djokovic only won 50.6% of all the points as the matches were very, very close.

Peak Djokovic could rarely easily defeat older post prime Federer, regardless of how old Federer got. Even if you take just 2011, Djoko won 51.6% of points and had a 1.08 Dominance Ratio. If you take just 2015, Djoko only won 50.5% of points and had a 1.01 dominance ratio



All the years of fighting off to younger all-time greats, who are 5 to 6 years younger than he was, had a great effect on his psyche. But if you look at the points played, these were extraordinarily close matches, and even an older post prime, post peak WFederer played peak Djokovic to a near standstill.
 
ghostofMecir said:
Djokovic hasn’t even won 50% of the points he played vs. Federer. The rivalry was extremely close and a few points here and there and things are turned greatly.

From 2006 to end of 2010
  • Federer led 13-6
  • 1.14 dominance ratio (not counting Davis Cup beating)
  • won 51.8% of all points (over 52% if you count Davis Cup beating).
  • 14 of these matches took place after Djokovic had made his first slam final. 12 of these matches took place after Djokovic had already won a slam (13 if we want to count the match at the 2008 Australian open itself).
From 2011 to end of 2019 (13 matches played in 2011 and 2015, Djokovic‘s best years; 8 matches were in 2015 alone and Federal was 34–35 years old.
  • Djokovic was 20-10
  • 1.03 dominance ratio
  • Won 50.6% of all points
Older wFederer, between the ages of 30 and 38 played Djokovic 30 times during Djokovic‘s peak years and in those 30 matches, Djokovic only won 50.6% of all the points as the matches were very, very close.

Peak Djokovic could rarely easily defeat older post prime Federer, regardless of how old Federer got. Even if you take just 2011, Djoko won 51.6% of points and had a 1.08 Dominance Ratio. If you take just 2015, Djoko only won 50.5% of points and had a 1.01 dominance ratio



All the years of fighting off to younger all-time greats, who are 5 to 6 years younger than he was, had a great effect on his psyche. But if you look at the points played, these were extraordinarily close matches, and even an older post prime, post peak WFederer played peak Djokovic to a near standstill.
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fed lost the matches that is all that matters despite points won or dominance ratio.
 
Kralingen said:
Ah yes. Even better actually.

11-7 slam H2H - iconic rivalry
11-6 slam H2H - not a rivalry

This is the sort of thing you could only ever read on TTW.
Click to expand...

Federers last win at a major against Djokovic came in 2012. Maybe that's the issue ,it's an entire decade with no win.
 
Kralingen said:
I mean, everything is to blame obviously, YE #1 is decided all year. It could just as easily be his loss to RBA in Miami or Kohli in Indian Wells.

But at the time of their RR match, which was the 3rd, Djokovic was 1-1. He would’ve advanced to the SFs with a win, which could’ve obviously given him 200 more points and then the potential to gain enough to win YE #1.

So yes him losing to Federer literally was the match that eliminated him from YE #1.
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In hindsight, it may have officially eliminated him, but Nadal had made a big advantage by the time USO was over (i think 2000 points), Djoko's chances were only going down with each passing day. You might as well say he could've done it had he won every post USO match, but just how realistic is that when you've already lost a winnable Cinci SF and you're out of the USO with injury. I don'remember a single season Djoko was trailing for the most of it and then came out on top. Even had he won the Fraud match, he'd still have to win 2 more. It's a long shot even if you put it that way.
 
Kralingen said:
Murray’s last win at a major against Nadal came in 2010 but that was still a rivalry.
Click to expand...

I haven't said much. Just that maybe because it was so long ago Fed beat Djokovic it's what gives OP this impression. It's not like Federer and Djokovic didn't play much either after 2012. They played 7 times in slams.
 
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