dunno about the last point. Murray basically faced peak Nadal and Djokovic his entire career. And had 6 wins over Federer from 06-09 generally Fed's peak is generally regarded as Wim 03-Oz 10. Murray might well have beaten Federer and even if he didn't Djokovic or Nadal might have beaten him and Nadal beaten them. I'd still give Murray 1 or 2 slams if they were all the same age. He continually improved (until US 2013) and was striving for success. He may well have found a way.
Federer's competition from 2003-2008
- Thread starter Mayonnaise
- Start date
dunno about the last point. Murray basically faced peak Nadal and Djokovic his entire career. And had 6 wins over Federer from 06-09 generally Fed's peak is generally regarded as Wim 03-Oz 10. Murray might well have beaten Federer and even if he didn't Djokovic or Nadal might have beaten him and Nadal beaten them. I'd still give Murray 1 or 2 slams if they were all the same age. He continually improved (until US 2013) and was striving for success. He may well have found a way.
torpantennis
Legend
My honest opinion: Peak Federer overall is better than peak Djokovic/Nadal. And all eras are almost equally as difficult. BUT, what affects more than anything is the matchups! Federer faced Roddick 8 times in final stages of slams. Federer had MOST OBVIOUS matchup advantage against him. Then some of us make the mistake that we think Roddick was weak, but it's actually all about that matchup advantage. Similarly, Nadal has a matchup advantage against Federer, and was lucky to face HIM so many times in final stages of slams. Also, Sampras had a matchup advantage against Agassi.
What's interesting, but also boring in a way, is that Nadal/Djokovic rivalry has no matchup advantage for either. In only THIS SENSE this current era is "strong", the best player does not have a matchup advantage against his most important competition. But IMO this era is weak overall, due to only 0-5 newcomers in the last 5 years, who are able to challenge the top15.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Fair enough. It's a shame we'll never know what would have happened if they'd all played against each other peak for peak. One things's for sure- they would've been very memorable matches!
Mayonnaise
Banned
That's like saying, "Nadal couldn't even dominate, 2005-2009, no way he would dominate 2010." Hewitt was playing at his best in 2004 and Federer pummeled him. And without Federer, it'd be no more a transitional era than Sampras's era without Sampras.
Yeah, a bum that blasted Sampras off the court in a Slam final :lol:
You could say the exact thing for Sampras's era without Sampras
Mayonnaise
Banned
I agree, word for word. *applauds*
Yeah, Novak was completely evaporated mentally last year since his loss to Rafa, Peak Roddick would've loved to play in this era with Rafa absent, Federer was busy losing likes of Stakhovascy, Brands, Delbonis and only obstacle left was choking Djokovic. Clearly he may have won GS in this era also, since no era is perfect. In This era competition was highest up to Wimbledon 2012 and it went to probably one of the lowest in open era during that patch especially on grass last year. Shame media was hyping that era as Big 4 in which Federer was playing worst Tennis since he entered prime and Rafa wasn't even competing.
Current competition is still not as strong as 11-12 but still much better with entry of 2-3 new promising youngsters.
tipsa...don'tlikehim!
Talk Tennis Guru
That's a personal opinion impossible to prove but yes I truly believe Djokovic 2011-2014 would beat peak Roddick 75% of the time except on grass.
I agree with every sentence you have written. Great post.
New incoming promising players is true yard stick to measure depth of field in my view. You could see Rafa is at 28, Novak at 27 still no young players have won Masters title yet, no GS final yet.
While Rafa was beating Roger when he was 17! At 27 Roger had 3 promising youngsters as Top 10 opposition, two of them GS champions and multiple time Masters Champion.
It has been proven 1990-94. generation doesn't have in born champions, which is only reason Federer is still Top 3, Nadal-Djokovic still ruling the game. We can't say it's tough competition when there is no young talent replacing current champions. I believe it has been too late now, let's see how post 1995 generation performs.
AssaultJoker
Banned
You're deluded if you think that prime Federer is better than prime Djokovic.
Mayonnaise
Banned
Grandpa Federer is 2-2 against prime Djokovic this year. Grandpa Federer beat peak Djokovic in 2011 at FO and was a point away at the USO. Grandpa Federer schooled prime Djokovic in 2012 at Wimbledon :lol: What's more, Federer actually dominated his peers and won 11 Slams. Who is deluded?
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
What do you think the H2H would be between Fed and Nole if they played 10 matches on grass, 10 on clay and 10 on HC prime for prime? :wink:
Mayonnaise
Banned
Impossible to say, but maybe something like this:
8-2 on Grass to Federer
5-5 on Clay
6-4 on Hardcourts to Federer
he did ok but his performance agaist the slow moving constant that is the field. Is not as good as even the weakest of the current big 4 murray. Murray is 2,5, 7 with wins, finals and semis. Roddick is 1,4, 5. Roddick has 5 masters compared to Murray's 9. Roddick has a lopsided record against Federer meanwhile Murray beat him 6 times during Fed's prime.
All of this suggests that Roddick was both not as great an outlier as Murray and given that Murray is obviously the weakest of the big four that the competition Federer faced in Roddick is not as hard as it was post-2007.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
torpantennis
Legend
Sure, I also think that if they were the same age, Nole would beat Roddick more often than not. I'd estimate 55-65% Djokovic in H2H. But, it could also be 55% Roddick because they wouldn't meet on clay .
tipsa...don'tlikehim!
Talk Tennis Guru
It's up to Djokovic if he keeps the same motivation in the future, or not, he'll be a dad soon.
Otherwise, Djokovic will decline way later than Nadal.
Otherwise, Djokovic will decline way later than Nadal.
AssaultJoker
Banned
Djokovic's peak was in 2011, no need to bring up 2012/2014 seasons.
Fed at his peak was schooled by Safin :lol: It's more shameful to lose against Safin(AO05) than against Federer(RG11)
torpantennis
Legend
Federer at peak is much better on clay. He's really underrated as a clay player. His peak FH is the 2ND HEAVIEST of all time, that and great movement wins on clay. Obviously on grass he'd be equally as devastating. Unfortunately peak to peak Djokovic has a slight matchup disadvantage, so it'd be
Clay: 7-3 Federer
Grass: 8-2 Federer
Fast HC: 6-4 Federer
Slow HC: 6-4 Djokovic
Indoors: 7-3 Federer
Mayonnaise
Banned
Djokovic's peak was in 2011, no need to bring up 2012/2014 seasons.
Fed at his peak was schooled by Safin :lol: It's more shameful to lose against Safin(AO05) than against Federer(RG11)
Federer's peak was 2006, mate
And the only one that could beat him was Nadal on Clay. Not some grandpa on his worst surface :lol:Besides, don't you remember who Djokovic was losing to at the end of the season?
Mayonnaise
Banned
Clay is tough to say, but I said 5-5 because Djokovic matured much sooner on the surface. I still give Federer the edge, but not a 6-4 edge. Maybe a 5-4 one. Which is why I went with 5-5.
torpantennis
Legend
Djokovic's peak was in 2011, no need to bring up 2012/2014 seasons.
Fed at his peak was schooled by Safin :lol:It's more shameful to lose against Safin(AO05) than against Federer(RG11)
It's father of two Federer, not prime Federer.
AssaultJoker
Banned
AO rebound ace: 6-4 Federer
AO plexi: 7-3 Djokovic
Rolan Garros: 7-3 Djokovic
Wimbledon: 7-3 Federer
US Open: 5-5
Mayonnaise
Banned
:lol: at 7-3 Roland Garros. Who is the RG champion? Who made 5 finals? Who beat peak Djokovic as a grandpa?
And 5-5 USO? Another :lol: Federer has 5 USOs to Djokovic's 1.
AssaultJoker
Banned
Federer's peak was 2006, mate
Besides, don't you remember who Djokovic was losing to at the end of the season?
LOL 2006 was one of the weakest years ever, Djokovic had to compete with prime Nadal and hungry Fed and Murray. You're deluded by underrating Fed's level at RG11, lots of Fed fans said it was his best clay performance ever in the match against Djokovic...
Mayonnaise
Banned
Federer's best Clay level was Rome 2006 or Madrid 2007. You seem to have started watching Tennis in 2011.
Federer was a 30 year-old in 2011. That's grandpa Federer. You call that prime? :lol: Just because he was the only one that could stop peak Djokovic doesn't mean he was in his prime! He was a grandpa.
AssaultJoker
Banned
Djokovic is 4-3 in sets at RG against Federer and he gives Nadal way more problems that Fed.
Fed was having troubles at USO with 35-year old Agassi:lol:
Djokovic would have taken Fed lots of times to 5th set and beated him there because Fed is below average as a fighter.
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
But by the same token, just because he was out of prime doesn't mean that he wasn't able to produce a god like performance every now and then. 2011 RG proved that! :wink:
AssaultJoker
Banned
30 years old means grandpa? WOW! Delusion is strong here. 30 years old is not the age for dominating tennis, but it's still a good age for focusing energy on Slams and winning.
torpantennis
Legend
Yes, Rome 2006 was his best. Madrid doesn't count towards RG, it's faster due to high altitude.
Mayonnaise
Banned
Federer and Djokovic are 1-1 at Roland Garros, and both matches came when Federer was 30 and 31, with Djokovic being 24 and 25. Can you imagine what 2006 Federer would do to 30 year-old Djokovic at the French Open? :lol:
Agassi never beat Federer since 2003. Not once. Djokovic lost to fossilized Tommy Haas on Hardcourt! :lol: Not to mention his Slam losses to Federer on Clay and Grass! Federer never lost to grandpas and dinosaurs in his prime :lol:
Mayonnaise
Banned
Federer played a great match, but 2006 Rome Federer would beat 2011 French Open Federer in 4 sets.
Mayonnaise
Banned
You'll see when Djokovic is 30. Sampras retired at 31. Maybe that will you perspective. And don't say Agassi or Ferrer, because they don't have the mileage Federer has on his body.
AssaultJoker
Banned
Federer would do nothing. Roger himself admitted that in 2011-2012 he was playing better than in his younger years. I would rather believe Roger than you:lol:
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
In fairness the main reason why Nole and Fed didn't meet years earlier at RG was because of the seedings. Novak was always destined to meet Nadal in the SF so it was almost impossible for him to get to Roger. I do think Nole would have had a good shot at beating Fed in 2008 though had he got past Nadal in the semis.
torpantennis
Legend
Roger playing better if you ask himself means that he BETTER MAXIMIZED his playing in 2011-2012, given the tools he got. The peak Federer was a monster, his speed and explosiveness has declined a huge amount. Even with better maximization of potential, his level was way lower in 2011-12.
Mayonnaise
Banned
2008, yes, he had a shot. What about 2009, though? He could've reached the final then, because Nadal was out. Either way, it's not Djokovic's fault. I'm just saying, if Federer at 30 could beat peak Djokovic at RG, he wouldn't be 3-7 down prime-to-prime. That's just ridiculous.
tipsa...don'tlikehim!
Talk Tennis Guru
why do u guys spend so much energy to convince each other when at the end of the day everyone will keep the same opinion its beyond me....
Mayonnaise
Banned
Okay, it's now clear that I'm talking to a child. Nobody who knows anything about Tennis would say Federer was better in 2011 than 2006 :lol:
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Fair enough and like I said before, 5-5 at RG would probably be quite accurate.
AssaultJoker
Banned
Federer said so himself, is he a child or just knows nothing about tennis?:lol:
torpantennis
Legend
Because we hate this era with no exciting ready-to-win newcomers. I estimated Dimitrov to win Wimbledon, didn't happen. I wonder if he'll ever win a slam.
AssaultJoker
Banned
Federer at his prime was destroyed by young Murray at hard-courts. Relax, Federer is not that good as you're saying.
torpantennis
Legend
He knows nothing about how much his speed and explosiveness has declined. When you run all-out, you just run all-out, without a clue of the real speed. He feels he can now give it more his all, due to better strategic playing, so of course he feels that he's playing better.
Mayonnaise
Banned
He didn't say he was playing the best Tennis of his career. He said he was playing his best Tennis, meaning he is bringing as much as he can out of himself. Work on your comprehension :lol:
Also, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, Laver, Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Navratilova, Evert, and many more call Federer the GOAT and don't even factor in Djokovic in the conversation. They're professional players, right? Surely they're right and you're wrong? :lol: Federer > Djokovic (17 > 7)
tipsa...don'tlikehim!
Talk Tennis Guru
Because we hate this era with no exciting ready-to-win newcomers. I estimated Dimitrov to win Wimbledon, didn't happen. I wonder if he'll ever win a slam.
I changed my mind on Dimitrov, I found him incredibly overrated last year but now I can't see any reason one he would not win a grand slam soon or later. Just hope it will be after Nishikori wins one, as I am convinced the Japanese is a better player.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Context is everything. That was the only loss Federer suffered in 6 months between the FO 2006 and IW in 2007. He had just won Toronto playing several back to back 3 set matches, he had the USO right around the corner. Do you think he was mentally invested in going all the way considering he had a tough one the week before?
I doubt it.
Mayonnaise
Banned
Only Nadal could beat prime Federer, and that was on Clay.
Prime Djokovic? Nadal can, Federer can, Murray can, Wawrinka can :lol:
AssaultJoker
Banned
Federer is more accomplished player because his prime was during an era of taxi-drivers. Djokovic is the greatest player of all time at his peak, deal with it
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
Ooh I think you're being a bit harsh on Novak Mayo. All those guys you've just mentioned aren't exactly scrubs are they?!
torpantennis
Legend
Federer is more accomplished player because his prime was during an era of taxi-drivers. Djokovic is the greatest player of all time at his peak, deal with it
I agree, let the kids play... :lol:
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