Federer's negative H2H against Nadal is a positive thing!

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
Ok guys work with me on this one. For so many years now I've noticed how vociferous many Nadal fans become when Federer's name gets mentioned as the greatest ever and the first thing they do is bring up the H2H against Nadal as a way of tearing that concept down. I believe however that they are shooting themselves in the foot by saying this and these are the chief reasons why:

H2H gets mentioned rather than an actual title that Federer is lacking in his resume. Just think how great a feeling this must be if you're Roger. People can say that Nadal has a hole in his CV by not winning WTF, Borg never won US Open, Sampras never won RG, Lendl never won Wimbledon etc but as far as Federer is concerned he's won every big title there is to win. Of course Agassi should also be given credit for winning all the major titles as well but the fact that he never reached double digit slams and spent 200 weeks less than Fed at number 1 immediately puts him on a lower tier. So like I say, Nadal fans constantly bringing up the H2H is actually a huge compliment to Federer as it shows there is nothing left to cling to.


The second point is the distribution of surfaces that both have played on. Had Fed been a worse clay court player[like Sampras for instance] the chances are that the H2H would be much more even as they would have barely ever met on the dirt. Why should Roger be punished for being good enough to reach Nadal in the first place? The idea that he'd be a better player for losing earlier on just seems absolutely crazy and yet had he gone out to random mugs instead of fighting like a tiger to meet Nadal in the final despite the matchup issue it's debatable he'd be seen as an even greater player but personally I believe losing in an earlier round is far worse than losing in the final.


Finally the issue of main rival. It could be argued that Federer and Nadal aren't actually one another's main rivals at all. Perhaps a true rival is only someone from the same generation as you and Nadal is not from the same one as Fed so it seems absurd that people expect Roger to have a winning record against someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game. Federer has leading H2Hs against Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko- you know the guys that actually WERE from his generation and you can't ask for more than that.


In conclusion it seems to me that rather than seeing it as a stain on his legacy, Federer and his fans should actually view his losing H2H against Rafa as something to be proud of rather than embarrassed. Be proud that he was always there to compete and never ran away from his worst surface against probably the best ever on that surface. Be proud that a H2H record which no one will even care about in a few years time is all his detractors can highlight rather than any missing trophy from his cabinet. And be proud that he took care, in devastating fashion, of all the main rivals from HIS generation. As strange as it may seem to some, Fed's negative H2H against Nadal is actually a positive thing and after both their careers have come to an end I sense that more and more people will also see it from the same perspective.
 
I actually think Federer's losing H2H with Murray is a good thing for Federer.

Because, are you going to try to argue that Murray is a greater player than Federer?

If not, then you also cannot argue that Nadal is a greater player than Federer. Either a winning H2H means you are greater than the player who loses the H2H, or it doesn't.

Can't have one rule for Murray and another for Nadal.
 
I actually think Federer's losing H2H with Murray is a good thing for Federer.

Because, are you going to try to argue that Murray is a greater player than Federer?

If not, then you also cannot argue that Nadal is a greater player than Federer. Either a winning H2H means you are greater than the player who loses the H2H, or it doesn't.

Can't have one rule for Murray and another for Nadal.

Yeah I understand where you're coming from. In a way I hope that Murray will always maintain his winning record against Federer as it will highlight even more just how silly the discussion of H2Hs actually is.
 
Ok guys work with me on this one. For so many years now I've noticed how vociferous many Nadal fans become when Federer's name gets mentioned as the greatest ever and the first thing they do is bring up the H2H against Nadal as a way of tearing that concept down. I believe however that they are shooting themselves in the foot by saying this and these are the chief reasons why:

H2H gets mentioned rather than an actual title that Federer is lacking in his resume. Just think how great a feeling this must be if you're Roger. People can say that Nadal has a hole in his CV by not winning WTF, Borg never won US Open, Sampras never won RG, Lendl never won Wimbledon etc but as far as Federer is concerned he's won every big title there is to win. Of course Agassi should also be given credit for winning all the major titles as well but the fact that he never reached double digit slams and spent 200 weeks less than Fed at number 1 immediately puts him on a lower tier. So like I say, Nadal fans constantly bringing up the H2H is actually a huge compliment to Federer as it shows there is nothing left to cling to.


The second point is the distribution of surfaces that both have played on. Had Fed been a worse clay court player[like Sampras for instance] the chances are that the H2H would be much more even as they would have barely ever met on the dirt. Why should Roger be punished for being good enough to reach Nadal in the first place? The idea that he'd be a better player for losing earlier on just seems absolutely crazy and yet had he gone out to random mugs instead of fighting like a tiger to meet Nadal in the final despite the matchup issue it's debatable he'd be seen as an even greater player but personally I believe losing in an earlier round is far worse than losing in the final.


Finally the issue of main rival. It could be argued that Federer and Nadal aren't actually one another's main rivals at all. Perhaps a true rival is only someone from the same generation as you and Nadal is not from the same one as Fed so it seems absurd that people expect Roger to have a winning record against someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game. Federer has leading H2Hs against Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko- you know the guys that actually WERE from his generation and you can't ask for more than that.


In conclusion it seems to me that rather than seeing it as a stain on his legacy, Federer and his fans should actually view his losing H2H against Rafa as something to be proud of rather than embarrassed. Be proud that he was always there to compete and never ran away from his worst surface against probably the best ever on that surface. Be proud that a H2H record which no one will even care about in a few years time is all his detractors can highlight rather than any missing trophy from his cabinet. And be proud that he took care, in devastating fashion, of all the main rivals from HIS generation. As strange as it may seem to some, Fed's negative H2H against Nadal is actually a positive thing and after both their careers have come to an end I sense that more and more people will also see it from the same perspective.

Everything you wrote makes sense, but your conclusion makes no sense to me. While I do agree that the head to head is skewed a bit and is not actually as bad for Federer as the numbers show, there is no way you can spin it as a positive.
 
Not everybody tries to peak for non-slam matches. So the h2h is absolutely pointless to me.

The SLAM H2H tells all:

Nadal leads Federer 9-2
Nadal leads Djokovic 8-3
Nadal leads Murray 6-2
Federer leads Djokovic 6-5
Federer leads Murray 4-1
Djokovic leads Murray 3-2
 
Federer of course is a greater player than Nadal. The 17 slams say it all. 17>13.

However:

1. If Roger had been bad on clay like Pete was, chances Roger wouldn't have 250+ weeks at #1.

2. Federer is the greatest player of this era until Nadal equals or surpasses his slam count. But Federer isn't the best player of all time. His game isn't good enough to beat Nadal's game. The best player of all time shouldn't be losing 23-10 to anyone, even to Nadal.

3. If Nadal can win as many slams as Federer, the majority of fans and tennis experts will consider the Spaniard the greater player of the two.

4. Nadal and Federer's rivalry started from 2004. They've been rivals for 10 years now. If Nadal is not Federer's main rival, I don't know who is. If it is Roddick or Hewitt, Federer would go down in history as the man who dominated the good players but got dominated by a great player.
 
I actually think Federer's losing H2H with Murray is a good thing for Federer.

Because, are you going to try to argue that Murray is a greater player than Federer?

If not, then you also cannot argue that Nadal is a greater player than Federer. Either a winning H2H means you are greater than the player who loses the H2H, or it doesn't.

Can't have one rule for Murray and another for Nadal.

How many times has Murray defeated Federer in the big grand slam matches?
I like Murray too but he's not half the player Nadal is. Nadal has dominated not only Federer but also Murray and Djokovic.
 
How many times has Murray defeated Federer in the big grand slam matches?
I like Murray too but he's not half the player Nadal is. Nadal has dominated not only Federer but also Murray and Djokovic.

So H2H counts, but only Slam H2H?

Well, currently, Rosol and Darcis are both leading Nadal in the Slam H2H 1-0.

So, what are you going to say - that the sample size is too small to draw conclusions from.

Nadal-fanatics will twist anything to favor them. If someone leads Nadal in the Slams, then Slams don't count, only H2H counts. But, if a player leads Nadal in the H2H, it doesn't count because it has to be Slam H2H. But if a player leads Nadal in the Slam H2H, it doesn't count until they have met a minimum number of times.

I think the GOAT debate is very simple - the most Slams wins. Doesn't matter if it's 21 French Opens and nothing else vs 5 of each Slam. 21 Slams beats 20 Slams - it's that simple. YE no. 1 counts for very little either.

The one who wins most Slams is the GOAT, it is truly that simple.

Don't lose hope yet, Nadal still has a good chance to beat 17. I am predicting around 22 Slams for Nadal.
 
Federer of course is a greater player than Nadal. The 17 slams say it all. 17>13.

However:

1. If Roger had been bad on clay like Pete was, chances Roger wouldn't have 250+ weeks at #1.

2. Federer is the greatest player of this era until Nadal equals or surpasses his slam count. But Federer isn't the best player of all time. His game isn't good enough to beat Nadal's game. The best player of all time shouldn't be losing 23-10 to anyone, even to Nadal.

3. If Nadal can win as many slams as Federer, the majority of fans and tennis experts will consider the Spaniard the greater player of the two.

4. Nadal and Federer's rivalry started from 2004. They've been rivals for 10 years now. If Nadal is not Federer's main rival, I don't know who is. If it is Roddick or Hewitt, Federer would go down in history as the man who dominated the good players but got dominated by a great player.
Well agree with everything you said.

Federer will always remain a tier 1 great. And by the looks of it, he will remain the second best player of all time.

No offense to Sampras and Borg. They are tier 1 as well. But Federer won on all surfaces. Those 2 didn't.

Sampras can keep his H2H with Agassi. Federer will have the career slam which is much more valuable.

And Borg still remnains one of the best because of his RG and W domination. To say he was not dominated by his main rival is flawed because he retired early. The H2H is 7-7 but Mac won their last 3 slam meetings. Who's to say Mac would not have done to him what Nadal has done to Federer?

If Fed retired at the end of 2007 with a 6-8 h2h vs Rafa, we would not be using the main rival domonation argument. But he is being punished for remaining in the game, while borg gets praised for living early. Does not seem fair
 
Ok guys work with me on this one. For so many years now I've noticed how vociferous many Nadal fans become when Federer's name gets mentioned as the greatest ever and the first thing they do is bring up the H2H against Nadal as a way of tearing that concept down. I believe however that they are shooting themselves in the foot by saying this and these are the chief reasons why:

H2H gets mentioned rather than an actual title that Federer is lacking in his resume. Just think how great a feeling this must be if you're Roger. People can say that Nadal has a hole in his CV by not winning WTF, Borg never won US Open, Sampras never won RG, Lendl never won Wimbledon etc but as far as Federer is concerned he's won every big title there is to win. Of course Agassi should also be given credit for winning all the major titles as well but the fact that he never reached double digit slams and spent 200 weeks less than Fed at number 1 immediately puts him on a lower tier. So like I say, Nadal fans constantly bringing up the H2H is actually a huge compliment to Federer as it shows there is nothing left to cling to.


The second point is the distribution of surfaces that both have played on. Had Fed been a worse clay court player[like Sampras for instance] the chances are that the H2H would be much more even as they would have barely ever met on the dirt. Why should Roger be punished for being good enough to reach Nadal in the first place? The idea that he'd be a better player for losing earlier on just seems absolutely crazy and yet had he gone out to random mugs instead of fighting like a tiger to meet Nadal in the final despite the matchup issue it's debatable he'd be seen as an even greater player but personally I believe losing in an earlier round is far worse than losing in the final.


Finally the issue of main rival. It could be argued that Federer and Nadal aren't actually one another's main rivals at all. Perhaps a true rival is only someone from the same generation as you and Nadal is not from the same one as Fed so it seems absurd that people expect Roger to have a winning record against someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game. Federer has leading H2Hs against Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko- you know the guys that actually WERE from his generation and you can't ask for more than that.


In conclusion it seems to me that rather than seeing it as a stain on his legacy, Federer and his fans should actually view his losing H2H against Rafa as something to be proud of rather than embarrassed. Be proud that he was always there to compete and never ran away from his worst surface against probably the best ever on that surface. Be proud that a H2H record which no one will even care about in a few years time is all his detractors can highlight rather than any missing trophy from his cabinet. And be proud that he took care, in devastating fashion, of all the main rivals from HIS generation. As strange as it may seem to some, Fed's negative H2H against Nadal is actually a positive thing and after both their careers have come to an end I sense that more and more people will also see it from the same perspective.

ok suppose i agree with you. but another perspective using exactly that same evidence you present, will have Nadal as greater than he already is. he was so young -- still in his teens! -- and was already able to compete effectively with Federer.
 
Gerulaitis' 16 straight losses to Connors can only be seen as a positive, in my view. It demonstrated the consistency of Vitas' game, his refusal to panic or make ill-considered changes in game plan merely because of the expected outcome, and showed his resolve in not tanking his match in the round before he anticipated playing Connors merely so he wouldn't have to play him again. Yes, the GerulaitisOAT!
 
Ok guys work with me on this one. For so many years now I've noticed how vociferous many Nadal fans become when Federer's name gets mentioned as the greatest ever and the first thing they do is bring up the H2H against Nadal as a way of tearing that concept down. I believe however that they are shooting themselves in the foot by saying this and these are the chief reasons why:

H2H gets mentioned rather than an actual title that Federer is lacking in his resume. Just think how great a feeling this must be if you're Roger. People can say that Nadal has a hole in his CV by not winning WTF, Borg never won US Open, Sampras never won RG, Lendl never won Wimbledon etc but as far as Federer is concerned he's won every big title there is to win. Of course Agassi should also be given credit for winning all the major titles as well but the fact that he never reached double digit slams and spent 200 weeks less than Fed at number 1 immediately puts him on a lower tier. So like I say, Nadal fans constantly bringing up the H2H is actually a huge compliment to Federer as it shows there is nothing left to cling to.


The second point is the distribution of surfaces that both have played on. Had Fed been a worse clay court player[like Sampras for instance] the chances are that the H2H would be much more even as they would have barely ever met on the dirt. Why should Roger be punished for being good enough to reach Nadal in the first place? The idea that he'd be a better player for losing earlier on just seems absolutely crazy and yet had he gone out to random mugs instead of fighting like a tiger to meet Nadal in the final despite the matchup issue it's debatable he'd be seen as an even greater player but personally I believe losing in an earlier round is far worse than losing in the final.


Finally the issue of main rival. It could be argued that Federer and Nadal aren't actually one another's main rivals at all. Perhaps a true rival is only someone from the same generation as you and Nadal is not from the same one as Fed so it seems absurd that people expect Roger to have a winning record against someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game. Federer has leading H2Hs against Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko- you know the guys that actually WERE from his generation and you can't ask for more than that.


In conclusion it seems to me that rather than seeing it as a stain on his legacy, Federer and his fans should actually view his losing H2H against Rafa as something to be proud of rather than embarrassed. Be proud that he was always there to compete and never ran away from his worst surface against probably the best ever on that surface. Be proud that a H2H record which no one will even care about in a few years time is all his detractors can highlight rather than any missing trophy from his cabinet. And be proud that he took care, in devastating fashion, of all the main rivals from HIS generation. As strange as it may seem to some, Fed's negative H2H against Nadal is actually a positive thing and after both their careers have come to an end I sense that more and more people will also see it from the same perspective.
I like the way you articulate your thoughts, well done!

And, I think that you had some good points. But ultimately, I can't agree with the overall conclusion.

Federer could have lost before meeting Nadal in all of their RG matches, and this would have been worse. Federer could have won some of their RG matches, and this would have been better. The current situation is just: Fed met Nadal in RG a bunch of times, and he always lost. This is not a positive. The fact he reached those finals (and SF) is positive, but not the fact that he lost.

Also, there are a few ways that the H2H could have been less skewed. Another one involves Nadal meeting Fed more often on HC slams. The outcome of this would be a less negative H2H for Federer, but at the expense of a couple less slams for Fed and a couple more for Nadal. So, it might not be such a positive outcome for Federer after all.

I think the H2H has to be taken as a whole, alongside the slam count and other achievements. And no, I personally don't think it's a positive for Federer to be 10:23 against Nadal.

Another point is that I do believe Federer and Nadal are main rivals. Because of substantial H2H, and because of the fact that their H2H encompasses a period beginning when Nadal was very far from prime and Federer was peak, to the current (opposite) period.
 
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Ok guys work with me on this one. For so many years now I've noticed how vociferous many Nadal fans become when Federer's name gets mentioned as the greatest ever and the first thing they do is bring up the H2H against Nadal as a way of tearing that concept down. I believe however that they are shooting themselves in the foot by saying this and these are the chief reasons why:

H2H gets mentioned rather than an actual title that Federer is lacking in his resume. Just think how great a feeling this must be if you're Roger. People can say that Nadal has a hole in his CV by not winning WTF, Borg never won US Open, Sampras never won RG, Lendl never won Wimbledon etc but as far as Federer is concerned he's won every big title there is to win. Of course Agassi should also be given credit for winning all the major titles as well but the fact that he never reached double digit slams and spent 200 weeks less than Fed at number 1 immediately puts him on a lower tier. So like I say, Nadal fans constantly bringing up the H2H is actually a huge compliment to Federer as it shows there is nothing left to cling to.


The second point is the distribution of surfaces that both have played on. Had Fed been a worse clay court player[like Sampras for instance] the chances are that the H2H would be much more even as they would have barely ever met on the dirt. Why should Roger be punished for being good enough to reach Nadal in the first place? The idea that he'd be a better player for losing earlier on just seems absolutely crazy and yet had he gone out to random mugs instead of fighting like a tiger to meet Nadal in the final despite the matchup issue it's debatable he'd be seen as an even greater player but personally I believe losing in an earlier round is far worse than losing in the final.


Finally the issue of main rival. It could be argued that Federer and Nadal aren't actually one another's main rivals at all. Perhaps a true rival is only someone from the same generation as you and Nadal is not from the same one as Fed so it seems absurd that people expect Roger to have a winning record against someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game. Federer has leading H2Hs against Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko- you know the guys that actually WERE from his generation and you can't ask for more than that.


In conclusion it seems to me that rather than seeing it as a stain on his legacy, Federer and his fans should actually view his losing H2H against Rafa as something to be proud of rather than embarrassed. Be proud that he was always there to compete and never ran away from his worst surface against probably the best ever on that surface. Be proud that a H2H record which no one will even care about in a few years time is all his detractors can highlight rather than any missing trophy from his cabinet. And be proud that he took care, in devastating fashion, of all the main rivals from HIS generation. As strange as it may seem to some, Fed's negative H2H against Nadal is actually a positive thing and after both their careers have come to an end I sense that more and more people will also see it from the same perspective.

Oooh boy . Whatever helps you sleep bro .....it certainly is a positive thing for Nadal fans so I think this may be the first time we agree!!!!
 
So H2H counts, but only Slam H2H?

Well, currently, Rosol and Darcis are both leading Nadal in the Slam H2H 1-0.

So, what are you going to say - that the sample size is too small to draw conclusions from.

Nadal-fanatics will twist anything to favor them. If someone leads Nadal in the Slams, then Slams don't count, only H2H counts. But, if a player leads Nadal in the H2H, it doesn't count because it has to be Slam H2H. But if a player leads Nadal in the Slam H2H, it doesn't count until they have met a minimum number of times.

I think the GOAT debate is very simple - the most Slams wins. Doesn't matter if it's 21 French Opens and nothing else vs 5 of each Slam. 21 Slams beats 20 Slams - it's that simple. YE no. 1 counts for very little either.

The one who wins most Slams is the GOAT, it is truly that simple.

Don't lose hope yet, Nadal still has a good chance to beat 17. I am predicting around 22 Slams for Nadal.

Nadal wasn't good enough to beat Darcis and Rosol at Wimbledon. It is what it is, although like you say the sample is rather small.

Agree with you that 17>13. You will never find me calling Nadal the GOAT. He isn't. Even Federer isn't in my book but Fed is more of a GOAT than Nadal is. I would love it if Nadal can win as many slams as Federer or more because he's not too far from it now.
But you know what? I would be proud of him if he retires tomorrow.

Will Nadal win more slams than Federer or not is not the reason why I am a fan of his. He was French Open champion when I first started rooting for him in the final of Wimbledon 2006. I wasn't too much into tennis then but I liked Federer and wanted to see him demolish this clay courter who came to challenge him. Half way through the match, I switched side. Nadal was getting outplayed by Federer rather easily in first set. But he kept going at Federer. Even though he lost that match, Rafa won a new fan in me that day. And I was convinced Nadal would one day figure out Federer and win Wimbledon.

I thought he would win 5 slams. He's won way more than I thought.
Sorry for the long post.
 
Well agree with everything you said.

Federer will always remain a tier 1 great. And by the looks of it, he will remain the second best player of all time.

No offense to Sampras and Borg. They are tier 1 as well. But Federer won on all surfaces. Those 2 didn't.

Sampras can keep his H2H with Agassi. Federer will have the career slam which is much more valuable.

And Borg still remnains one of the best because of his RG and W domination. To say he was not dominated by his main rival is flawed because he retired early. The H2H is 7-7 but Mac won their last 3 slam meetings. Who's to say Mac would not have done to him what Nadal has done to Federer?

If Fed retired at the end of 2007 with a 6-8 h2h vs Rafa, we would not be using the main rival domonation argument. But he is being punished for remaining in the game, while borg gets praised for living early. Does not seem fair

Borg left early and ended his career with 11 grand slam titles. Federer stayed on and won more grand slam titles and today has at least 3 more grand slam titles than anyone else in the Open Era.
And history will remember Federer's 17 more than Borg's 11 IMO.
 
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...
You will never find me calling Nadal the GOAT. He isn't. Even Federer isn't in my book but Fed is more of a GOAT than Nadal is....

Rafa is more of the GOATherder.
lj2m.jpg
 
LoL...

On more serious note, if Rafa is to be greater than Federer, he will have to earn it. He has to win more slams. Right now Federer has some good records over him.

LOL

Federer has to beat Nadal(if he wants) to be considered the greatest ever, certainly in my book." Pete Sampras
 
The OP is pretty well reasoned.

The thing where the H2H argument falls over is, if Nadal is the better player how come Federer was so so so much more dominant versus the whole field over a much longer period of time in the tournaments that matter most?

We don't look at a boxer like Ali who has a losing record against Larry Holmes and try and argue he was a greater boxers than Ali. Why? Because Ali was better versus the whole field across a career.

In short, beating one particular player means nothing in tennis, nothing whatsoever. Being the only undefeated player at the end of the most important tournaments means the most and Federer owns Nadal in that respect. The fact that the h2h argument gets mentioned at all is evidence of the futility of Nadal fans to find historically significant metrics where he tops Federer.
 
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LoL

Federer has beaten Nadal not once but 10 times.
And Pete doesn't decide who's the who of tennis.

Let's stop making Pete into a villain here. Mac brings up the H2H all the time, so does Agassi. The latter said: "how can he be the greatest when there is a contemporay who gets the better of him most of the time"?
 
The OP is pretty well reasoned.

The thing where the H2H argument falls over is, if Nadal is the better player how come Federer was so so so much more dominant versus the whole field over a much longer period of time in the tournaments that matter most?

On average, Nadal has won more slam titles per year than Federer, and Nadal has a better h2h record vs the field than Federer, and Nadal has a better career winning% than Federer, and Nadal already has a lot more masters shields than Federer despite being 5 years younger. And Nadal is also heading for his FOURTH year-ending-number-one crown (only one less than Federer).
 
The OP is pretty well reasoned.

The thing where the H2H argument falls over is, if Nadal is the better player how come Federer was so so so much more dominant versus the whole field over a much longer period of time in the tournaments that matter most?

We don't look at a boxer like Ali who has a losing record against Larry Holmes and try and argue he was a greater boxers than Ali. Why? Because Ali was better versus the whole field across a career.

In short, beating one particular player means nothing in tennis, nothing whatsoever. Being the only undefeated player at the end of the most important tournaments means the most and Federer owns Nadal in that respect. The fact that the h2h argument gets mentioned at all is evidence of the futility of Nadal fans to find historically significant metrics where he tops Federer.
Federer was dominant over what field? And Federer did nothing before the age Nadal won his first Wimbledon.
 
LoL

Federer has beaten Nadal not once but 10 times.
And Pete doesn't decide who's the who of tennis.

As a boy yes he has beaten Nadal .

So Sayeth The Lord your God.

The Lord Federer :

“I believe Rafa improved in both. His strengths are even better now and his weaknesses are better, although they're still not as good as his strengths. Of course also he's fitter. He's no longer a young boy. He's a man now. He has experience on top of that. So he really improved. It's spectacular and the results are there to show, to prove it.”

Amen.
 
On average, Nadal has won more slam titles per year than Federer, and Nadal has a better h2h record vs the field than Federer, and Nadal has a better career winning% than Federer, and Nadal already has a lot more masters shields than Federer despite being 5 years younger. And Nadal is also heading for his FOURTH year-ending-number-one crown (only one less than Federer).

Two words. Clay Bully.
 
On average, Nadal has won more slam titles per year than Federer, and Nadal has a better h2h record vs the field than Federer, and Nadal has a better career winning% than Federer..
Any yet Federer's broader achievements still make Nadal's pail by comparison.

FYI, the career winning percentage thing is specious stat until both player have retired. Federer is miles past his prime so his numbers are going downhill.

Also, insofar as career winning percentage go you only need to go look at surfaces... Nadal is worse than Federer on every surface other than clay. The key reason his metrics look great is because he has lived in one of the weakest clay court eras in tennis history. If not for Federer and Soderling Nadal's clay court record would probably be 100% since he started to hit his stride as a pro.
 
Any yet Federer's broader achievements still make Nadal's pail by comparison.

That's what happens when you've been on the tour for 5 more years.

Also, Federer has never matched the greatest achievement of them all:

Nadal is the only man ever to win slams on clay, grass, hardcourt in a calendar year.

BTW, look at Nadal's record vs the last great clay players - Moya and Mosquito. Nadal was extremely young, yet STILL beat them.

Nadal is 7-2 vs Ferrero. Nadal beat him 4 times in 2005. 3 of those 4 wins took place on clay before Nadal won Roland Garros!
Nadal is 6-2 vs Moya. Nadal beat him on clay in 2003!

If you insist on calling Nadal's era a 'weak clay era', you must also say the era before was even weaker. I also don't like Muster/Guga's chances of beating Nadal. And Nadal is 2-0 vs Agassi (2005 Canada and 2006 Wimbledon), so I don't like Agassi's chances on clay vs Nadal. I tell you who else all those past greats would struggle with: Djokovic, Federer and Ferrer.
 
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TDK Nadal was older in his first two Wimbledon finals than Becker was when he first won it! I'm not really sure why you always try to take those two wins away from Fed-they're his only victories against Nadal in the slams. Give Roger something to hold onto mate! :smile:
 
That's what happens when you've been on the tour for 5 more years.

Also, Federer has never matched the greatest achievement of them all:

Nadal is the only man ever to win slams on clay, grass, hardcourt in a calendar year.

BTW, look at Nadal's record vs the last great clay players - Moya and Ferrer. Nadal was extremely young, yet STILL beat them.

That just means he had 1 great year. Career accomplishments are more important than a single year dominance. 3 years of 3 majors and 18 of 19 majors finals shows sustained dominance.

If Nadal continues to play for 5 more years, watch how his winning percentage would all drop down.
 
Nadal is the only man ever to win slams for 9 years in a row. And he's about to extend his record to 10 straight years. That is the greatest slam longevity ever, and that longevity is the reason why Nadal will finish with more slam titles than Federer. Nadal is simply better for longer. Nadal is in his hardcourt prime at age 27.5 and won Indian Wells, Canada, Cincy and US Open all in the same year. Who was the last man to do that? Nadal is having a better career than Federer, and Federer can do nothing about it, because Federer is not good enough to stop Nadal (whereas Nadal has stopped Federer repeatedly). End of story.
 
.... someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game...

Nadal may be one of the fastest on the court (Ferrer is up there as well).
But clearly he is not the fittest. He has missed big chunks of seasons consistently due to physical injuries.

Saying Nadal is the fittest is as absurd as saying, "i can squat 900 lbs, look at my huge quads and abs. Too bad i have a bad knee and stiff back and therefore i cannot.".
 
Davydenko

I just refuse to believe that Davydenko is a better player than Nadal, even though he is ahead of Nadal on the H2H. Sorry, you can't convince me!
 
Ok guys work with me on this one. For so many years now I've noticed how vociferous many Nadal fans become when Federer's name gets mentioned as the greatest ever and the first thing they do is bring up the H2H against Nadal as a way of tearing that concept down. I believe however that they are shooting themselves in the foot by saying this and these are the chief reasons why:

H2H gets mentioned rather than an actual title that Federer is lacking in his resume. Just think how great a feeling this must be if you're Roger. People can say that Nadal has a hole in his CV by not winning WTF, Borg never won US Open, Sampras never won RG, Lendl never won Wimbledon etc but as far as Federer is concerned he's won every big title there is to win. Of course Agassi should also be given credit for winning all the major titles as well but the fact that he never reached double digit slams and spent 200 weeks less than Fed at number 1 immediately puts him on a lower tier. So like I say, Nadal fans constantly bringing up the H2H is actually a huge compliment to Federer as it shows there is nothing left to cling to.


The second point is the distribution of surfaces that both have played on. Had Fed been a worse clay court player[like Sampras for instance] the chances are that the H2H would be much more even as they would have barely ever met on the dirt. Why should Roger be punished for being good enough to reach Nadal in the first place? The idea that he'd be a better player for losing earlier on just seems absolutely crazy and yet had he gone out to random mugs instead of fighting like a tiger to meet Nadal in the final despite the matchup issue it's debatable he'd be seen as an even greater player but personally I believe losing in an earlier round is far worse than losing in the final.


Finally the issue of main rival. It could be argued that Federer and Nadal aren't actually one another's main rivals at all. Perhaps a true rival is only someone from the same generation as you and Nadal is not from the same one as Fed so it seems absurd that people expect Roger to have a winning record against someone who is 5 years younger than him and one of the fittest players ever to play the game. Federer has leading H2Hs against Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davydenko- you know the guys that actually WERE from his generation and you can't ask for more than that.


In conclusion it seems to me that rather than seeing it as a stain on his legacy, Federer and his fans should actually view his losing H2H against Rafa as something to be proud of rather than embarrassed. Be proud that he was always there to compete and never ran away from his worst surface against probably the best ever on that surface. Be proud that a H2H record which no one will even care about in a few years time is all his detractors can highlight rather than any missing trophy from his cabinet. And be proud that he took care, in devastating fashion, of all the main rivals from HIS generation. As strange as it may seem to some, Fed's negative H2H against Nadal is actually a positive thing and after both their careers have come to an end I sense that more and more people will also see it from the same perspective.

You're not actually saying anything that every Federer fan hasn't said at least once. You're basically giving us advice that we took long ago. That said, a little reinforcement never hurt anyone. :)
 
The H2H logic falls apart to me when you're basically arguing that Federer would somehow be a greater player if he had lost earlier on clay for example. It just makes no sense.

And for people arguing that he wouldn't have as many weeks at #1, that is not really true because in Federer's dominant years he was so far ahead that losing in a QF or SF for example wouldn't have made a difference.
 
The H2H logic falls apart to me when you're basically arguing that Federer would somehow be a greater player if he had lost earlier on clay for example. It just makes no sense.

And for people arguing that he wouldn't have as many weeks at #1, that is not really true because in Federer's dominant years he was so far ahead that losing in a QF or SF for example wouldn't have made a difference.

That's just it I wasn't saying that Fed would've been greater had he lost earlier. I was saying that he did great to consistently reach the finals every year even though he knew who would likely be waiting for him there. IMO reaching a slam final is still better than another loss in your H2H with one of your chief rivals.
 
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