Federer's racquet Depolarized?

[tursafinov]

With the semi-revival of SW2 threads I went on the search for lead evidence on Federer's racquet.

I know all about the Wilson Pro Room and Priority1 or **** etc.
he gets all customization done in-house prior to handling them.
Many Pros have lead on the outside of their frames visible in some way.

It stood to reason that before Fed was "Fed the GOAT," before it was apparent he was going to be the next #1 he would have been like any other player with some lead showing.

Recalling a post by BreakPoint, he said since 2000 Fed was getting complete custom jobs from Wilson because they predicted he would be the next #1.
I began a small search for images of fed playing from '98-'00.

I believe that the following images indicate that in his PS85 days Fed added weight to the inside throat of his racquet and in another image along the outside of the throat.
I am not familiar with the Wilson timeline but it would appear that when Fed switched to the red and yellow Hyper PS Paint job he was already getting full customization if not earlier circa his first Wimbledon when still using PS85.

The evidence:
(inside)
French Open (Clay)

Rome (clay)

 

[tursafinov]

(outside)
Australian Open (hardcourt)

 

[tursafinov]

*POOF*Then its gone by Wimbledon 2001
After beating Sampras (as noted by DoubleHanded)-still PS85

HPS Paint Job

It is worth noting that these are early in his career and that the depolarization could have been holding him back.

On the flipside depolarization can maintain a specific balance point, decrease serve power, but add overall weight. This could allow for the idea that Fed has a lower swing weight but can withstand the Pace of the Pro serve.
I think it would also justify why he strings so low.

I hope someone has an idea to contribute and maybe I can coax Travlerajm into the thread for a thought.
~Tursa

 

[vincent_tennis]

what do u mean by depolarized?

 

[PurePrestige]

It's obvious from various pictures that he has used lead tape in the racket throat on the PS85 and PS90 models. To say that it is holding him back however I don't think is justified, being that he had lead in the throat when he won Wimbledon in '03..

I think now the K90 is it. IT IS what Fed uses most likely, or at least I believe so.

 

[tursafinov]

Polarized:
Majority of weight placed at the furthest tips (head and butt) of a racquet.
De-polarized:
The opposite; weight is concentrated at the center of the racquets length (the throat or "V")

~Tursa

 

[tursafinov]

It's obvious from various pictures that he has used lead tape in the racket throat on the PS85 and PS90 models. To say that it is holding him back however I don't think is justified, being that he had lead in the throat when he won Wimbledon in '03..

I think now the K90 is it. IT IS what Fed uses most likely, or at least I believe so.

I value your opinion. The idea that i was going for with the pics was to show
that by '03 Wimbledon he didn't have it on the throat, what you see is a red label that probably has stringing information.
So either he stopped placing the weight at the throat and it helped his career (lending credibility to SW2), or it is just being manufactured as part of the racquet now( which goes against SW2).

~Tursa

 

[master_stringer_mitchy]

i dont think taking a few grams of lead on or off would have "helped" him achieve world number 1 status. a player with such talent and natural ability like federer would have allways achieved what he has regardless. i would beleive that after so long they would have just added to weight to the frame when making it. the only thing that stops me from thinking this for sure is the fact that pete had all those layers of lead on his pro staff for so long, and now on his new racket, why not add it when making it?

 

[sunflowerhx]

The only conclusion those pictures shows is that Federer was an ugly mug in his teens/early 20s!

 

[jackson vile]

Adding weight to the throat adds stabilty and power, that does not decrease power.

 

[tursafinov]

Adding weight to the throat adds stabilty and power, that does not decrease power.

My apologies then. Perhaps I was confusing spin potential with power.
Travlerajm says that polarization is used for maximum spin.
and depolarization will decrease spin potential and cause more flat shots.
I believe this was the basis of his " Open Letter to Andy Roddick Your Racquet is Holding You Back" thread.

~Tursa

 

[RoddickistheMan]

Fed should shave his head. IN that pic with his hair back he looks like he has it shaved. He can pull it off. Anyways in some of the pics with his old 6.0 85 the grip looks bigger than what he uses now. You think he also went down in grip sizes as well.

 

[DoubleHanded&LovinIt]

*POOF*Then its gone by Wimbledon '03-still PS85

That is NOT from Wimbledon 2003. That's from Wimbledon 2001. That's right after Federer hit a down-the-line forehand return winner on match point against Sampras in the 4th round.

 

[tursafinov]

Fed should shave his head. IN that pic with his hair back he looks like he has it shaved. He can pull it off. Anyways in some of the pics with his old 6.0 85 the grip looks bigger than what he uses now. You think he also went down in grip sizes as well.

It looks like he was rather just reckless when wrapping the grip. I've seen enough pics where there is a ridiculous amount of overlapping on his grip as if no one ever showed him how. It could be that he reapplied his grip during a changeover and had less time to care how perfect to make his overlaps.

Nowadays, he pulls a new racquet out of his bag and it is perfect with a very thin over lap.

What I believe you noticed is the grip shape being different.
Most notably his buttcap is more pronounced now in it flares out at the bottom more.
It has been speculated that he is using an L4 cap on an L3 grip.

 

[tursafinov]

That is NOT from Wimbledon 2003. That's from Wimbledon 2001. That's right after Federer hit a down-the-line forehand return winner on match point against Sampras in the 4th round.

It must not have been organized properly in the galley I got it from.

It doesn't affect my case though since it would make sense that Fed was actually getting full Pro Room jobs atleast since 2001, as BreakPoint thought.
Thus why my thread is looking for evidence from earlier years.
Thank you for noting this. I will try to edit OP.

~Tursa

 

[GasquetGOAT]

It has been speculated that he is using an L4 cap on an L3 grip.

why would he do that?

 

[tursafinov]

why would he do that?

Who knows?!
Uh ... I guess since he holds his racquet closer to the bottom than most
it feels more secure and makes his hand slip less.
It's probably just his personal preference.

It could be the related to the reason people inquire as to why he doesn't have K90 shiny buttcap but opted for the black/red N90 cap.

~Tursa

 

[ten15]

Does anyone know the order of what rackets Federer used? Because he has lead on his pro staff tour 90 but none on his ps85 in the Wimbledon picture. I thought the ps tour 90 came after the ps85, so it looks like he ADDED lead? Maybe it was for the clay season?

 

[stormholloway]

I think now the K90 is it. IT IS what Fed uses most likely, or at least I believe so.

Highly unlikely. It's doubtful he would just switch racquets just because Wilson made a new frame for the public.

Plus his racquets have the old buttcaps on them, proving that they're just his old frames with K paint on them.

 

[PurePrestige]

Just to note. I've dug through the pics as well.
At Wimbledon 2003, he DOES have lead in fact. Look up Wimbledon 2003 pics you will see in, i believe, every pic he has lead in the throat.
This is with the Pro Staff Tour 90, after the PS 6.0 and HPS 6.0 whatnot.
This is not to say I don't think his rackets were uncustomized at this point. I believe at this point he was receiving rackets close to his target specs. But at some point in the year he wanted a bit more weight, so he added 3-4 grams in the throat to give him that weight.

This is not uncommon, for example. Safin gets his rackets matched to his specs with lead under the grommets by Head before they are sent to him. When people see visible lead on the inside of the frame on the racket head that is after they are sent to him. Often pros who are changing their setup will take the rackets sent to them and add after-market lead so to speak. They will try this for a few weeks and maybe take it off, or if they have great success with it they might get it measured and give new target specs to Head. This is probably what happened to Federer, he probably wanted a tiny bit more stability and added this lead. He favoured it and kept it as part of his target spec.

After Wimbledon 2003 the lead is gone, and soon after he switches to the nCode. So I imagine he liked the throat lead after winning wimbledon and that was taken into account when sending him his next batch of pro room rackets.

 

[stormholloway]

Once he got Wilson to make a racquet to his specs he didn't need lead.

 

[bertrevert]

Well I remember closeups of Nate Ferguson's beautiful lead work on Sampras racquet - Am unsure if that similarly "disappeared" into the substance of the frame, don't believe it did. However most assuredly this could be accomplished for Fed as the degree of sponsorship is different. It is more of an era now where pros wouldn't exactly be swapping tips between each otherb so disguise is preferable...

 

[Leelord337]

....and will we ever know if he had(s) lead tape under the bumper guards of his rackets

 

[AlpineCadet]

The AlpineCadet frame is heavily customized with a depolarized setup with around 17 grams in the throat. But does anyone care? Nope.

 

[BreakPoint]

Recalling a post by BreakPoint, he said since 2000 Fed was getting complete custom jobs from Wilson because they predicted he would be the next #1.
I began a small search for images of fed playing from '98-'00.

Sorry, but I've never said this. You must be thinking of someone else.

AFAIK, the first time that Federer used a paintjob was when he switched to using a PS 6.0 85 with the red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob on it in early 2002. Prior to that, he was using stock retail China-made PS 6.0 85's that were customized to his liking by either the Wilson Pro Room, his stringer or maybe by himself.

 

[crawl4]

Highly unlikely. It's doubtful he would just switch racquets just because Wilson made a new frame for the public.

Plus his racquets have the old buttcaps on them, proving that they're just his old frames with K paint on them.

woo a different buttcap, u must be right then

 

[califsurferboy33]

good post purepretige, that does seem very logical

 

[Strings And Things]

woo a different buttcap, u must be right then

I second that!!! I buttcap doesn't "prove" anything! Maybe its presence is evidence, however it doesn't "PROVE" anything.

 

[samej07]

Does anyone know the order of what rackets Federer used? Because he has lead on his pro staff tour 90 but none on his ps85 in the Wimbledon picture. I thought the ps tour 90 came after the ps85, so it looks like he ADDED lead? Maybe it was for the clay season?

unless im mistaken it goes:

ps85, HPS 95 pj, ps tour90

this alone would kind of throw off the lead theory because in some pics of the ps85 and hps 95 he doesnt have lead, but on the ps 90 he does.

 

[stormholloway]

Fanboys are so desperate to believe they are playing with the very racquet Federer plays with. They contend that a) Federer switched to the K90 or the equally ridiculous b) the K90 is what he's always been playing with.

It's sad.

The K90 doesn't even feel that much like a PS85 at all. It makes no sense that he'd just switch from an 85 to what is now called the K90. They don't play that similarly.

 

[Strings And Things]

Fanboys are so desperate to believe they are playing with the very racquet Federer plays with. They contend that a) Federer switched to the K90 or the equally ridiculous b) the K90 is what he's always been playing with.

It's sad.

The K90 doesn't even feel that much like a PS85 at all. It makes no sense that he'd just switch from an 85 to what is now called the K90. They don't play that similarly.

I hear you. Who cares about the exact details of his personal preferences? Yes, I do believe a nice, custom setup can improve one's game (and dramatically so), but when people want to replicate everything, all the way down to Federer's String Saver placement .... that just cracks me up!

I don't care about Fed's setup, but do have a question to any computer/graphics savvy folks out there. Here's the thing that caught my attention: Sometimes when I'm watch Fed play, it seems as though his racquet head appears to be bigger than a mid-sized frame.

Now can someone actually measure the headsize of his frame, going with pics? I ask, because logically, there should be a way. The given is there, that
Fed stand 6'4" (whatever it acutally is). Well, in proportion to his height (or using something else that's more accurate, such as the length of his racquet -- supposedly 27"), maybe some experts out there can count pixels and determine if in fact his frame is a mid?

Been wondering about that just for the sake of curiousity. Has anyone else ever wondered about this?

 

[chlsmo]

One thing I have noticed about those pics that I think is somewhat interesting is that; the PS Tour 90 photos (where he is not covering up the pallet) are distinctly similar to the commercially available version e.g shorter pallet/longer handle. The HPS PJ (which he used before the PS Tour 90) has the longer pallet/shorter handle similar to the n90-k90 that he used after the PS Tour 90.

So, it seems to me PJ or not there were some molding changes through this period. Also, is the HPS PJ of the PS 85, or the "New Racquet"?

I use the PS Tour 90 and owned a K90 and the handle/pallet lengths were definitely different.

 

[Azzurri]

Fanboys are so desperate to believe they are playing with the very racquet Federer plays with. They contend that a) Federer switched to the K90 or the equally ridiculous b) the K90 is what he's always been playing with.

It's sad.

The K90 doesn't even feel that much like a PS85 at all. It makes no sense that he'd just switch from an 85 to what is now called the K90. They don't play that similarly.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. I play both (I still play with the PS 85 along with my Asian K90's) and they do feel different (even the US K90). I think that the PS 85 does certain things better than the K90 and vice-vers, but the PS 85 feels much better.

 

[Azzurri]

One thing I have noticed about those pics that I think is somewhat interesting is that; the PS Tour 90 photos (where he is not covering up the pallet) are distinctly similar to the commercially available version e.g shorter pallet/longer handle. The HPS PJ (which he used before the PS Tour 90) has the longer pallet/shorter handle similar to the n90-k90 that he used after the PS Tour 90.

So, it seems to me PJ or not there were some molding changes through this period. Also, is the HPS PJ of the PS 85, or the "New Racquet"?

I use the PS Tour 90 and owned a K90 and the handle/pallet lengths were definitely different.

I believe he did use a "stock" Tour 90 for a short amout of time..I think Breakpoint might be able to confirm this.

 

[BreakPoint]

The K90 doesn't even feel that much like a PS85 at all. It makes no sense that he'd just switch from an 85 to what is now called the K90. They don't play that similarly.

The K90 feels a lot closer to the PS 6.0 85 than any other racquet made today and also feels a lot closer to the PS 6.0 85 than the PS Tour 90 did, IMO, and we know he used that one for a short time. The PS 6.0 85 has no HyperCarbon and is not Double Braided and neither is the K90. The PS Tour 90 has HyperCarbon and is Double Braided which makes it feel very different from the PS 6.0 85, IMO.

Oh, and why does a pro's new racquet have to feel exactly the same? Does the Bryan Brothers' Prince Speedport Black feel exactly like their old Wilson 5.0/6.1? Does Davydenko's O3 Tour feel exactly like his old Head LM Radical? Does Nadal's AeroPro Drive feel exactly like his old Pure Drive Team?

 

[BreakPoint]

One thing I have noticed about those pics that I think is somewhat interesting is that; the PS Tour 90 photos (where he is not covering up the pallet) are distinctly similar to the commercially available version e.g shorter pallet/longer handle. The HPS PJ (which he used before the PS Tour 90) has the longer pallet/shorter handle similar to the n90-k90 that he used after the PS Tour 90.

So, it seems to me PJ or not there were some molding changes through this period. Also, is the HPS PJ of the PS 85, or the "New Racquet"?

I use the PS Tour 90 and owned a K90 and the handle/pallet lengths were definitely different.

The "pallet" is the handle, so you can't have both a shorter pallet and a longer handle as they are one and the same.

The handles are also not part of the mold. Frames are molded without handles. They come out of the mold with no handles, just the center core, and are known as "hairpins" because the ends have two thin shafts. The handles are molded onto the frame much later on. For pros, the frames are shipped to their stringer/customizer without any handles on them at all. The customizer then molds a custom handle on the frames which precisely matches the size and feel the pro wants.

And, yes, Federer used a retail PS Tour 90 for a short time in 2003 before Wilson made the K90 for him. He then used the K90 with a PS Tour 90 paintjob on it for the remainder of 2003 until May 2004, when he switched to the nCode 90 paintjob over the same K90.

Here's Federer's racquet timeline:

Junior years to 2001: Retail China-made PS 6.0 85 with standard retail paintjob
Early 2002 to mid 2002: PS 6.0 85 with red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob
Mid 2002 to early 2003: PS Tour 90 with red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob
Early 2003 to mid 2003: Retail PS Tour 90 with standard retail paintjob
Mid 2003 to mid 2004: K90 with black PS Tour 90 paintjob
Mid 2004 to early 2007: K90 with red nCode 90 paintjob
Early 2007 to present: Retail K90 with standard retail paintjob

 

[AlpineCadet]

The "pallet" is the handle, so you can't have both a shorter pallet and a longer handle as they are one and the same.

The handles are also not part of the mold. Frames are molded without handles. They come out of the mold with no handles, just the center core, and are known as "hairpins" because the ends have two thin shafts. The handles are molded onto the frame much later on. For pros, the frames are shipped to their stringer/customizer without any handles on them at all. The customizer then molds a custom handle on the frames which precisely matches the size and feel and the pro wants.

And, yes, Federer used a retail PS Tour 90 for a short time in 2003 before Wilson made the K90 for him. He then used the K90 with a PS Tour 90 paintjob on it for the remainder of 2003 until May 2004, when he switched to the nCode 90 paintjob over the same K90.

Here's Federer's racquet timeline:

Junior years to 2001: Retail China-made PS 6.0 85 with standard retail paintjob
Early 2002 to mid 2002: PS 6.0 85 with red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob
Mid 2002 to early 2003: PS Tour 90 with red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob
Early 2003 to mid 2003: Retail PS Tour 90 with standard retail paintjob
Mid 2003 to mid 2004: K90 with black PS Tour 90 paintjob
Mid 2004 to early 2007: K90 with red nCode 90 paintjob
Early 2007 to present: Retail K90 with standard retail paintjob

Please state the facts to back up your timeline between 2003-2004. But if that is just your theory, then say so.

 

[jgreen06]

The only conclusion those pictures shows is that Federer was an ugly mug in his teens/early 20s!

hahaha

10char

 

[stormholloway]

And, yes, Federer used a retail PS Tour 90 for a short time in 2003 before Wilson made the K90 for him. He then used the K90 with a PS Tour 90 paintjob on it for the remainder of 2003 until May 2004, when he switched to the nCode 90 paintjob over the same K90.

Here's Federer's racquet timeline:

Junior years to 2001: Retail China-made PS 6.0 85 with standard retail paintjob
Early 2002 to mid 2002: PS 6.0 85 with red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob
Mid 2002 to early 2003: PS Tour 90 with red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob
Early 2003 to mid 2003: Retail PS Tour 90 with standard retail paintjob
Mid 2003 to mid 2004: K90 with black PS Tour 90 paintjob
Mid 2004 to early 2007: K90 with red nCode 90 paintjob
Early 2007 to present: Retail K90 with standard retail paintjob

There's no evidence whatsoever to support this, yet BreakPoint touts it as absolute fact. For a guy who claims not to care what racquet Federer uses, you sure put a lot of time in studying that very subject.

How could you possibly know that Federer has been using the K90 for four years or that he's currently using it at all?

 

[Fries-N-Gravy]

you guys are getting way into this. while i'm a huge fed fan i realize that its more important for us to use a racquet that is perfect for us. having the excalibur of federer will not improve your game. how many of us bought the pro staff 85 st vincent and did not become sampras? lead tape isn't the missing link between your current 3.0 level and getting to 5.5 either.

as little as it matters my personal belief is the k90 with ncode paintjob theory.

 

[jackcrawford]

There's no evidence whatsoever to support this, yet BreakPoint touts it as absolute fact. For a guy who claims not to care what racquet Federer uses, you sure put a lot of time in studying that very subject.

How could you possibly know that Federer has been using the K90 for four years or that he's currently using it at all?

You have to remember Breakpoint was on board with the ridiculous assertion by ART ART that Tony Roche said the following exact words in 2006 - " ... this his (sic) a copy of the legendary ProStaff 85 but with a larger head size, nothing else, because Roger plays with that racket since he was 15 or 16 years old, but because of clay courts 4 or 5 years ago, Roger have asked Wilson to make the same racket but with a bigger head size." Roche was and is not a racket geek, had no idea what rackets Federer or any other player used, and did not speak using terms such as a fanboy would about a Prostaff 85 or any other racket racket being "legendary". The fact Breakpoint gave this story any credence shows he has no ability to evaluate evidence objectively.

 

[BreakPoint]

How could you possibly know that Federer has been using the K90 for four years or that he's currently using it at all?

Because I have this thing called a brain. Ever heard of it? :-?

 

[BreakPoint]

You have to remember Breakpoint was on board with the ridiculous assertion by ART ART that Tony Roche said the following exact words in 2006 - " ... this his (sic) a copy of the legendary ProStaff 85 but with a larger head size, nothing else, because Roger plays with that racket since he was 15 or 16 years old, but because of clay courts 4 or 5 years ago, Roger have asked Wilson to make the same racket but with a bigger head size." Roche was and is not a racket geek, had no idea what rackets Federer or any other player used, and did not speak using terms such as a fanboy would about a Prostaff 85 or any other racket racket being "legendary". The fact Breakpoint gave this story any credence shows he has no ability to evaluate evidence objectively.

The K90 is essentially a "PS 6.0 85 with a bigger head". Same composition (80% Graphite and 20% Kevlar). Same Single Braided construction. The only difference is that the Graphite in the K90 is "nCoded", whereas, in the PS 6.0 85, it's not.

I don't think Tony Roche knows much about nanotechnology nor can he tell you specifically what it is, so he doesn't mention it.

 

[stormholloway]

Only the K90 feels nothing like the PS85. The weight distribution is way off. If the K90 were simply a 90 inch PS85, then one would think Sampras would be using it.

 

[BreakPoint]

Only the K90 feels nothing like the PS85. The weight distribution is way off. If the K90 were simply a 90 inch PS85, then one would think Sampras would be using it.

When you change the headsize, you're going to change the weight distribution. Even the PS 6.0 95 has a different weight distribution from the PS 6.0 85. The only racquet that's going to feel exactly like a PS 6.0 85 is a PS 6.0 85, and if that's what you like then that's what you should use. Federer helped to develop the K90 and probably wanted the weight distribution to be different from the PS 6.0 85, with more weight in the throat. Remember all the lead tape he used to put on the throat of his PS 6.0 85?

The K90 is the closest thing to a PS 6.0 90 available right now. It's good enough for Federer. I don't think he's as anal about his racquets as Sampras is. But obviously, it's not good enough for Sampras and that's why Wilson is now developing another racquet that should be even closer to a PS 6.0 90 for Sampras.

 

[chlsmo]

you guys are getting way into this. while i'm a huge fed fan i realize that its more important for us to use a racquet that is perfect for us. having the excalibur of federer will not improve your game. how many of us bought the pro staff 85 st vincent and did not become sampras? lead tape isn't the missing link between your current 3.0 level and getting to 5.5 either.

as little as it matters my personal belief is the k90 with ncode paintjob theory.

Man, I don't think anyone is necessarily saying "I have to know what Federer uses so that I can use it!"

What is wrong with trying to pin down what he actually uses? I am a musician, and I like to know what the professionals use to do their magic, it does not mean that I want the same setup.

I think it would be interesting if there were a link made between Federer's success with a non polarized configuration and a polarized one. Whether or not people use that information to modify their own equipment is not really the issue for this thread IMO. Merely observational.

 

[dgoran]

This is a quote from Federer (ref. http://www.insidetennis.com/0508_federer.html)
"RF: I wasn’t playing too well. I lost in the first round in Rome the week before against [Andrea] Gaudenzi 4 and 4. I just had changed rackets, changed strings — the whole thing — to actually what I’m playing today. So six years ago almost? Before that I played with Pete’s [Wilson ProStaff] racket."

So he had what they call ksix 90 since 2002 Breakpoint was/is right all along...

 

[Leelord337]

I heard from the ATP master's series commentators that Federer's racket is strung at 21kilo mains and 20kilo crosses. and he uses luxilon bb alu on the crosses and wilson nat gut on the mains. thats roughly 45lbs/43lbs.

thats amazing how he gets so much control from such a loosely strung racket

This is a quote from Federer (ref. http://www.insidetennis.com/0508_federer.html)
"RF: I wasn’t playing too well. I lost in the first round in Rome the week before against [Andrea] Gaudenzi 4 and 4. I just had changed rackets, changed strings — the whole thing — to actually what I’m playing today. So six years ago almost? Before that I played with Pete’s [Wilson ProStaff] racket."

So he had what they call ksix 90 since 2002 Breakpoint was/is right all along...

btw, whats up w/those grommets right above the throat of the racket?

sure looks a lot different than his "current" stick

 

[BreakPoint]

btw, whats up w/those grommets right above the throat of the racket?

sure looks a lot different than his "current" stick

Those are not part of the grommet. Those are leather "power pads" that his stringer put in when he strung his racquet. Do a search and you'll learn more about power pads than you ever wanted to know. :shock:

 

[Leelord337]

^^^yeah u got me. Its just I didn't see any brown one the grommets. Usually power pads are brown leather but these must be black.