Fed's RG-11 semi victory has been interpreted a little bit wrongly

tennisaddict said:
But Novak was winning so many masters and making all the majors finals in the interim.
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False. In 2012 he didn't win anything from Miami to Toronto. In 2013 he won nothing from Monte Carlo to China open. In every of those years he had bad losses to people not named Federer, Nadal, Murray or Wawrinka.

tennisaddict said:
Just that peak Stan/Rafa are better players than peak Novak. Also 2012 Murray was his best version. Novak was still the same player just that when goating opponents come he does not find a way.
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Is this an opinion or a fact?

tennisaddict said:
Fed was losing to the Gulbis, Baghdatis, Berdych, Soderling, tournament after tournament in 2010.
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Is that the same Baghdatis who was very much capable of GOATing in matches vs Federer?
 
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil said:
In 2013, yes. He lost despite playing great tennis. But in 2012 and 2014 he was quite flat. And throughout the year, not just at RG, he was not as good as in 2011 and 2015. In these two years, he has been near perfect.
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In 2012 FO, he won 8 games on the trot when rain stopped play. He just could not sustain the momentum because of the player on the other side.
 
tennisaddict said:
In 2012 FO, he won 8 games on the trot when rain stopped play. He just could not sustain the momentum because of the player on the other side.
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There were two rain delays. Djokovic benefited from the first that stopped the match for a short time, Nadal benefited from the second that postponed the match to the next day.
Not to mention Djokovic commited suicide with 2 double faults in both final championship points when it was all still relatively open.
 
user said:
False. In 2012 he didn't win anything from Miami to Toronto. In 2013 he won nothing from Monte Carlo to China open. In every of those years he had bad losses to people not named Federer, Nadal, Murray or Wawrinka.



Is this an opinion or a fact?



Is that the same Baghdatis who was very much capable of GOATing in matches vs Federer?
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LOL.

2012 - After winning Miami, he made the finals of MC, Rome, RG to clay GOAT and SF of Wimbledon to GOAT.

2013 - After winning MC, he made the finals of Wimb and USO and lost a 5 setter to Rafa at FO.

Hardly any comparison.
 
tennisaddict said:
LOL.

2012 - After winning Miami, he made the finals of MC, Rome, RG to clay GOAT and SF of Wimbledon to GOAT.

2013 - After winning MC, he made the finals of Wimb and USO and lost a 5 setter to Rafa at FO.

Hardly any comparison.
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Apart from those losses, he was losing many more matches to lesser opponents in 2012-2014 (to Isner x 2, Tipsarevic, Del Potro x 2, Querrey, Haas, Dimitrov, Berdych, Tsonga, Robredo, Nishikori).

Therefore, his level (2011-2015) was not uniform, as you said. That means your premise is wrong.
 
metsman said:
well it can be argued both ways. On one hand, nadal was low on confidence after 4 losses and just like the Wimby and USO finals to follow he would fall apart under pressure. On the other hand even when Djoker came in to RG with big wins on clay he still could't seal the deal and if Nadal had beaten him there...who knows what he could have done with that confidence the rest of the year.

However, I do think Djoker would have beaten Nadal at the FO that year. He was too good and too confident. 2012 kind of gave Nadal the confidence to beat Djoker at RG in 2013-2014 even when he was far from his best on clay. Doubt that would have happened in 2011. Would have needed a miracle but I guess with nadal on Phillpe Chatrier you can never count it out.
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Fair post, although I disagree about Nadal being far from his best in 2013-14, at least towards the end of the tournament.
 
metsman said:
no he won that match because he smacked 20 aces, 51 winners to just 28 unforced. It was maybe his only prime level performance against a big opponent all year. A man low on confidence doesn't come out with 12 winners and 3 unforced errors in a 6-3 first set.

Instead of making up narratives that the media would say actually watch the tennis. Federer was a little tentative early in that USO, especially against Andreev but he wanted that thing badly and he took it, Djoker didn't give it to him.
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By that time he was improving on confidence but it sure wasn't back to normal. In fact it was that victory itself that probably most boosted his confidence. Before that, he was quite unsure of himself as you could see in many of his interviews. Trust me I watched the match, I've probably been watching tennis much longer than you have. Djoker couldn't give it to him is exactly my point. DJoker was not good enough that year. The AO08 victory was essentially a fluke (due to Fed mono) as proven for 3 slamless years (I believe the only slam final was USO2010) for Djoker that followed.
 
Steve0904 said:
I don't think anybody is upset. Just because @MichaelNadal posts a GIF doesn't mean he's upset. He probably just doesn't agree given what we've seen since 2011 and before it as well. The facts are on his side here with regards to Nadal at RG. The crux of this is why are we even mentioning hypothetical matches that never happened? It's just antagonistic for no reason whatsoever. You said it yourself. It doesn't matter so why mention it. Every time this topic arises it always looks like Djokovic fans are desperate to give Novak an imaginary RG because he doesn't have one yet. The side effect being that they get to rile up the Nadal fans, but mostly it just reeks of desperation.
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Not sure why you think stating an opinion reeks of desperation Steve.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Not sure why you think stating an opinion reeks of desperation Steve.
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It does in this case since Djokovic does not have a RG. Then when you see people basically trying to give him one that he didn't earn, that's desperation. Again, it comes down to why you're stating the opinion in the first place even though it doesn't matter. You Djokovic fans know it will incite Nadal fans. That's the reason people do it. And it's needless because RG 2011 was 4 years ago and the match never happened. You only do it to see how many people you can hook. You well know the result of such a statement, especially when the guy you're trying to bring down had 5 RG titles at that point and now has 9 and is unarguably the greatest clay courter that has ever lived, and probably always will be.
 
user said:
Apart from those losses, he was losing many more matches to lesser opponents in 2012-2014 (to Isner x 2, Tipsarevic, Del Potro x 2, Querrey, Haas, Dimitrov, Berdych, Tsonga, Robredo, Nishikori).

Therefore, his level (2011-2015) was not uniform, as you said. That means your premise is wrong.
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He lost 3 times to 34 year old in what you call a fantastic year. So that is pretty much his level.

Consistently good. But when GOAT'ers show up, he packs his bag. Much like FO 15
 
Steve0904 said:
It does in this case since Djokovic does not have a RG. Then when you see people basically trying to give him one that he didn't earn, that's desperation. Again, it comes down to why you're stating the opinion in the first place even though it doesn't matter. You Djokovic fans know it will incite Nadal fans. That's the reason people do it. And it's needless because RG 2011 was 4 years ago and the match never happened. You only do it to see how many people you can hook. You well know the result of such a statement, especially when the guy you're trying to bring down had 5 RG titles at that point and now has 9 and is unarguably the greatest clay courter that has ever lived, and probably always will be.
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Lol, you're looking way too deep into it. I don't know about other Djokovic fans but when I state my opinion on the subject, the last thing I'm thinking of is Nadal fans. I simply express my view and if they don't like it, it really doesn't bother me in the slightest.
 
tennisaddict said:
He lost 3 times to 34 year old in what you call a fantastic year. So that is pretty much his level.

Consistently good. But when GOAT'ers show up, he packs his bag. Much like FO 15
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This is just shameless hardcore trolling. You have lost the argument.
 
tennisaddict said:
Ok, Novak is the "hypothetical" RG winner. Looks like we have to gift him one since he chokes year after year.
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He doesn't choke, I think that's unfair.
He's been legit outplayed there every year from 2011 onwards by players who were simply better on the day.

You could possibly say he's been unlucky (say in 2013), but in the end, Rafa won that match with his own GOATing tennis.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Lol, you're looking way too deep into it. I don't know about other Djokovic fans but when I state my opinion on the subject, the last thing I'm thinking of is Nadal fans. I simply express my view and if they don't like it, it really doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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I don't think I am. The point is that you should expect a response to a statement like that from the fans of the opposing player. You can't "accuse" the other fan base of being touchy or whining when they're the ones that are actually right, as proven by the actual results, not the ones made up in fantasy land.
 
tennisaddict said:
He lost 3 times to 34 year old in what you call a fantastic year. So that is pretty much his level.

Consistently good. But when GOAT'ers show up, he packs his bag. Much like FO 15
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Djokovic2015 > Federer 2006. Just accept it tennisaddict, there's more dignity in it. ;)
 
Steve0904 said:
I don't think I am. The point is that you should expect a response to a statement like that from the fans of the opposing player. You can't "accuse" the other fan base of being touchy or whining when they're the ones that are actually right, as proven by the actual results, not the ones made up in fantasy land.
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But would you agree that us Djokovic fans are also entitled to the opinion that he would've beaten Nadal that year?
 
Djokovic2011 said:
If there's one thing I've learnt during my time on here, it's that claiming Djokovic would have beaten Nadal at the 2011 French Open is heresy to certain Nad fans(and they know exactly who they are).
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I don't think it's a fair thing to claim though at all.
Nadal's record at RG earns him the status as favourite in any match there, against anyone, at any time.

Novak beat Rafa in the warm-up events in 2013 and 2014 too, and still lost to him at RG.
 
Steve0904 said:
It does in this case since Djokovic does not have a RG. Then when you see people basically trying to give him one that he didn't earn, that's desperation. Again, it comes down to why you're stating the opinion in the first place even though it doesn't matter. You Djokovic fans know it will incite Nadal fans. That's the reason people do it. And it's needless because RG 2011 was 4 years ago and the match never happened. You only do it to see how many people you can hook. You well know the result of such a statement, especially when the guy you're trying to bring down had 5 RG titles at that point and now has 9 and is unarguably the greatest clay courter that has ever lived, and probably always will be.
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The thread is about a match which was played at FO 4 years ago. Should we not discuss because it was a while ago?
As I said, there are countless of imaginary matches that other people have been creating recently, and in every one of those Djokovic gets destroyed. That is a clear sign of frustration from those who cannot get out of Fed's and Rafa's a**es and know nothing about showing respect and acknowledgement to someone else.
I don't want to draw any attention and irritate others when stating my opinion. The reaction that fans of other players will make at my statements is the last thing that is on my mind. Other fanbases though always want to get a reaction out of our group, by making all sorts of threads about Djokovic that always have a negative context and even at times decide to attack and insult his fans personally.
My claim that Djokovic would have been a heavy favorite in 2011 RG final and that I am sure he would win is just an individual opinion, and I don't expect nor request from others to agree on this. Even if I stated this just to get a reaction from Nadal or Federer fans, you should not complain, because your fanbase has been saying a lot worse stuff about Djokovic and us as his supporters...
 
tennisaddict said:
Because you say so ? You compared Fed's 2010-12 to Novak's 2012-2014. That is some serious delusion
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No, because you are too biased to even think before you write something. I compared Federer's 2010-2012 to Federer's 2004-2009, the same way you compared Djokovic's 2012-2014 to Djokovic's 2011 and 2015. That is called reciprocity. I'm afraid I cannot help you anymore with this, I'm done wasting time on you.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
But would you agree that us Djokovic fans are also entitled to the opinion that he would've beaten Nadal that year?
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You are, but your fan bases opinion doesn't matter in this case. Nadal fans are also entitled to the opinion that he would've won RG 2009 if he didn't lose to Soderling, but the point of tennis is to win, not to lose, thus rendering both opinions invalid.
 
tennisaddict said:
Phenomenal year, no doubt but tainted by 3 losses to 34 year old
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Federer was a perfectly okay opponent this year (the rest of the Top 10 being the problem).
My main issue is that he has more losses from less tournament starts.

And guys, don't mention "but they were 250s" or something, Novak didn't play those and still has more losses.
Also folks say the 250s are not worth as much because the players don't try so hard - if you don't try so hard, you are more likely to lose, no?
Federer didn't.
 
user said:
No, because you are too biased to even think before you write something. I compared Federer's 2010-2012 to Federer's 2004-2009, the same way you compared Djokovic's 2012-2014 to Djokovic's 2011 and 2015. That is called reciprocity. I'm afraid I cannot help you anymore with this, I'm done wasting time on you.
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Federer prime: 2004-2009 (AO 2010 more like)
Nadal prime: 2006-2013
Djokovic prime: 2011-present

Everyone knows this. The results make it obvious.
Deal with it.
 
Firstservingman said:
Federer was a perfectly okay opponent this year (the rest of the Top 10 being the problem).
My main issue is that he has more losses from less tournament starts.

And guys, don't mention "but they were 250s" or something, Novak didn't play those and still has more losses.
Also folks say the 250s are not worth as much because the players don't try so hard - if you don't try so hard, you are more likely to lose, no?
Federer didn't.
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It is a plus for Federer that he was winning them too. Djokovic not playing them this year cannot downgrade Fed's achievements in 2006 even if people tried so hard to do it.
The thing is Djokovic won more big tournaments and reached the final of every single one. Not having a negative record against any of his main rivals is also a plus. One of those six losses did not stop him from winning the tournament too.
Though I probably read you stating before, which season do you find better?
 
Firstservingman said:
I don't think it's a fair thing to claim though at all.
Nadal's record at RG earns him the status as favourite in any match there, against anyone, at any time.

Novak beat Rafa in the warm-up events in 2013 and 2014 too, and still lost to him at RG.
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True, but Djokovic wasn't playing at the same level he was in 2011, with such a great winning streak, heaps of confidence and four successive wins against Nadal heading into the FO. Saying he would've defeated the Spaniard that year is therefore perfectly reasonable given the circumstances.
 
Firstservingman said:
Federer prime: 2004-2009 (AO 2010 more like)
Nadal prime: 2006-2013
Djokovic prime: 2011-present

Everyone knows this. The results make it obvious.
Deal with it.
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Results are one thing, level is another. Nadal's and Djokovic's level were volatile throughout all those years, not nearly monotonous, like Federer's 2004-2007. You can keep going though, maybe some Nadal fan will agree that his 2008 level is basically the same as it was in 2006.
 
Steve0904 said:
You are, but your fan bases opinion doesn't matter in this case. Nadal fans are also entitled to the opinion that he would've won RG 2009 if he didn't lose to Soderling, but the point of tennis is to win, not to lose, thus rendering both opinions invalid.
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Don't be naive. You've been on this forum long enough to know that people love discussing hypothetical matchups and all opinions are valid, no matter how much you may disagree with them.
 
Steve0904 said:
I don't think I am. The point is that you should expect a response to a statement like that from the fans of the opposing player. You can't "accuse" the other fan base of being touchy or whining when they're the ones that are actually right, as proven by the actual results, not the ones made up in fantasy land.
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When did I accuse the other fanbases of being touchy or whining?
 
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil said:
The thread is about a match which was played at FO 4 years ago. Should we not discuss because it was a while ago?
As I said, there are countless of imaginary matches that other people have been creating recently, and in every one of those Djokovic gets destroyed. That is a clear sign of frustration from those who cannot get out of Fed's and Rafa's a**es and know nothing about showing respect and acknowledgement to someone else.
I don't want to draw any attention and irritate others when stating my opinion. The reaction that fans of other players will make at my statements is the last thing that is on my mind. Other fanbases though always want to get a reaction out of our group, by making all sorts of threads about Djokovic that always have a negative context and even at times decide to attack and insult his fans personally.
My claim that Djokovic would have been a heavy favorite in 2011 RG final and that I am sure he would win is just an individual opinion, and I don't expect nor request from others to agree on this. Even if I stated this just to get a reaction from Nadal or Federer fans, you should not complain, because your fanbase has been saying a lot worse stuff about Djokovic and us as his supporters...
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The fact that it was 4 years ago is not my main point anyway so we can throw that out. I also can't control what threads are being made about Djokovic unless I make one myself, so let's try to stay on topic here.

The point is that a response is to be expected to a statement like the one you've made whether you care if you get one or not. Then the Djokovic fan will say, "I'm just stating an opinion and X amount of Nadal fans are getting bent out of shape about it", but that misses the overall point that Nadal won the tournament. So while the Djokovic fans are trying to make the Nadal fans look bad by saying they're a bunch of whiners for contesting this opinion, in reality they're the ones that come off second best since Djokovic lost to Federer which renders the opinion null and void.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
True, but Djokovic wasn't playing at the same level he was in 2011, with such a great winning streak, heaps of confidence and four successive wins against Nadal heading into the FO. Saying he would've defeated the Spaniard that year is therefore perfectly reasonable given the circumstances.
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He lost to Federer though, didn't he?
Shouldn't Nadal at RG be a tougher opponent than Federer there (however well Federer was playing)?
 
user said:
Results are one thing, level is another. Nadal's and Djokovic's level were volatile throughout all those years, not nearly monotonous, like Federer's 2004-2007. You can keep going though, maybe some Nadal fan will agree that his 2008 level is basically the same as it was in 2006.
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So. Results are not a barometer as well for Novak ? So we have to accept level based on eye test by Novak fans ?

Comparing Rafa's volatility with Novak ? Lol.

Just see the win-loss record for the 5 years. Stats don't lie.

The guy made repeated masters wins in these years. Just that when other players GOAT he does not have it in him to raise his level, except if it is Andy Murray
 
Firstservingman said:
He lost to Federer though, didn't he?
Shouldn't Nadal at RG be a tougher opponent than Federer there (however well Federer was playing)?
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Federer was a tougher matchup for Djokovic in general that year(and probably always has been) so I don't think you can look too much into that result. As crazy as it sounds, Novak would've looked much more forward to having a shot at dismantling Nadal's game and swiping away all those moonballs which he was feasting on in 2011 than he did to playing Federer, whose serve and all court variety has always been more problematic for him irrespective of the surface.
 
user said:
Results are one thing, level is another. Nadal's and Djokovic's level were volatile throughout all those years, not nearly monotonous, like Federer's 2004-2007. You can keep going though, maybe some Nadal fan will agree that his 2008 level is basically the same as it was in 2006.
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Honestly Novak's level in many tournaments this year hasn't been much better than it was in 2013 or 2014.
He was definitely better at some tournaments in 2013 than this year (losing sets to Berdych on clay at MC lol, compared to beating 2013dal in straights there).
And he was definitely better in 2011 than 2015 across the board until the USO.

His 2015 level is getting a bit overrated, he was absolutely GOATing for much 2011, this year he's just been doing enough to win for most of it.
He straight-setted a good Federer and Nadal multiple times on the trot in 2011, this year he's been losing sets to Berdych lol.
 
Steve0904 said:
Don't be naïve. You're all over MN where this topic is concerned. You might not blatantly call him a whiner, but you have your own transparent, passive aggressive ways of doing it.
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I can't be held responsible for other people's misinterpretation of my posts. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.
 
Steve0904 said:
You chickened out. You didn't even tag the guy. I hope that's not the best you can do because if it is, it's horrible.
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But surely if I'd tagged him then you really would think I was trying to rile up the Nadal fans! Lol, it seems like I can't win whatever I do.
 
zep said:
First of all he was up 5-2 with just one break, he had a chance on Nadal's serve to take the set but the drop shot went wide. Nadal lifted his game from then on and broke back, Federer did not give it away, one break of serve is not a significant lead in a set. Also most likely even if he had won the set he would have lost the match. He was up a set in the 2006 final and still lost the next three, was up a set in the 2012 AO semi, still lost it in 4.
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Try telling Fed that, and see what he says.
 
Firstservingman said:
Honestly Novak's level in many tournaments this year hasn't been much better than it was in 2013 or 2014.
He was definitely better at some tournaments in 2013 than this year (losing sets to Berdych on clay at MC lol, compared to beating 2013dal in straights there).
And he was definitely better in 2011 than 2015 across the board until the USO.

His 2015 level is getting a bit overrated, he was absolutely GOATing for much 2011, this year he's just been doing enough to win for most of it.
He straight-setted a good Federer and Nadal multiple times on the trot in 2011, this year he's been losing sets to Berdych lol.
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OK. Federer's level in many tournaments he lost in, lets say 2004 or 2007, was still lower than his level in some tournaments he won in a dominant fashion in 2011 or 2012. Your point?
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Lol, I'm beginning to think there's something going on between you and MN that I'm not aware of - you sure spend a lot of time defending the guy! :eek:
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Besides the occasional forum banter, no. Maybe I'm doing it because you never tagged him in the first place. :) You could be having this conversation with him if you tagged him like you should've.
 
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