Fed's start, 17 vs 18 vs 19

[BrokenGears]

Basically Jan-Apr of all three years

Too lazy to organize, sue me.

2017

Serve
Ace %12.1% Double Fault %2.3% 1st Serve %61.5% 1st Serve Won %79.1% 2nd Serve Won %58.4% Break Points Saved %67.9% Service Points Won %71.1% Service Games Won %90.8%

Return
Ace Against %5.8% Double Fault Against %2.9% 1st Srv. Return Won %32.6% 2nd Srv. Return Won %49.8% Break Points Won %43.3% Return Points Won %39.0% Return Games Won %25.7%

Total
Points Dominance1.35 Games Dominance2.79 Break Points Ratio1.35 Total Points Won %54.5% Games Won %58.4% Sets Won %80.7% Matches Won %95.0% Match Time1:52


2018

Serve Ace %12.6% Double Fault %2.3% 1st Serve %61.9% 1st Serve Won %80.0% 2nd Serve Won %61.4% Break Points Saved %67.3% Service Points Won %72.9% Service Games Won %93.0%

Return Ace Against %5.5% Double Fault Against %3.7% 1st Srv. Return Won %32.9% 2nd Srv. Return Won %49.8% Break Points Won %42.8% Return Points Won %39.9% Return Games Won %27.2%

Total Points Dominance1.47 Games Dominance3.90 Break Points Ratio1.31 Total Points Won %55.5% Games Won %60.5% Sets Won %83.7% Matches Won %89.5% Match Time1:43

2019

Serve
Ace %10.4% Double Fault %2.3% 1st Serve %64.0% 1st Serve Won %80.8% 2nd Serve Won %61.4% Break Points Saved %73.5% Service Points Won %73.8% Service Games Won %94.6%
Return
Ace Against %5.9% Double Fault Against %2.8% 1st Srv. Return Won %32.1% 2nd Srv. Return Won %48.9% Break Points Won %35.4% Return Points Won %38.5% Return Games Won %24.4%

Total
Points Dominance1.47 Games Dominance4.52 Break Points Ratio1.33 Total Points Won %54.8% Games Won %60.0% Sets Won %83.7% Matches Won %90.0% Match Time1:35

 

[MasturB]

Unbelievable how his % are +/- 2% in mostly every service stat the last three years. Double fault % has remain unchanged.

Also still funny to me how Red Rick still doesn't think Roger is in discussion for best server of all time.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Miami boosted stats nicely. 2017 Miami may have 9000 times better stats but Fed was better, just his draw was 10000 times tougher.

 

[ak24alive]

Also still funny to me how Red Rick still doesn't think Roger is in discussion for best server of all time.

Federer has one of the best service games ever.
Doesn't mean he is the best server ever.
What follows his serve is so great that he wins a lot of service games.
It doesn't imply that his serve is as good as the big guys.
He is too good at identifying short balls and ending his service points in 2-3 shots.
Ofcourse his serve is brilliant but no, not in contention for best ever.

 

[Kalin]

Too lazy to organize, sue me.

Sure, who's your lawyer?

Kidding, great job! Now lemme just figure out what it all means and how it translates to Roger winning RG, Wimbledon and the Year-end No.1 this year...

 

[MasturB]

Federer has one of the best service games ever.
Doesn't mean he is the best server ever.
What follows his serve is so great that he wins a lot of service games.
It doesn't imply that his serve is as good as the big guys.
He is too good at identifying short balls and ending his service points in 2-3 shots.
Ofcourse his serve is brilliant but no, not in contention for best ever.

Fed doesn't have a high ace rate but his unreturned serve numbers are pretty damn good.

His serve is godlike because he's not 7 feet tall with a favorable angle to hit it into the box. His serve is godlike because of the unbelievable accuracy and consistency.

His service patterns are pretty much the same over and over and it allows him to hit offensive short balls.

If you actually break down his service game you'd understand why his serve is one of the ATG's. It goes beyond raw ace numbers.

Comparing Isner/Ivo serve to Fed's is dumb, which is what Red Rick routinely does.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Fed doesn't have a high ace rate but his unreturned serve numbers are pretty damn good.

His serve is godlike because he's not 7 feet tall with a favorable angle to hit it into the box. His serve is godlike because of the unbelievable accuracy and consistency.

His service patterns are pretty much the same over and over and it allows him to hit offensive short balls.

If you actually break down his service game you'd understand why his serve is one of the ATG's. It goes beyond raw ace numbers.

Comparing Isner/Ivo serve to Fed's is dumb, which is what Red Rick routinely does.

Yeah if you weight it for height then Fed is right in contention. Sampras too. The other guys have better raw stats but are 6'10".

He has the GOAT ball toss which helps. It's extremely hard to get a read on where he's going with it

 

[MasturB]

Yeah if you weight it for height then Fed is right in contention. Sampras too. The other guys have better raw stats but are 6'10".

He has the GOAT ball toss which helps. It's extremely hard to get a read on where he's going with it

Exactly why Novak had a hard time reading it consistently 2014-2015.

What good is Isner's serve if he can't put away meh returners like Khachonov, Kyrgios and guys mid tier?

When Fed is beating these guys it's not like he's breaking them a lot. He's holding most of the time and going to tiebreaks or pushing for a break at the end of a set.

The only reason Fed was even able to go with Anderson in the QF last year that long after the injury was his serve because any rally that went last 3 shots he was losing most of them it seemed like. But he was still racking up aces and unreturned serves.

 

[NatF]

This kinda shows the flaws with these sorts of stats considering Federer was by far better in 2017 despite having the worst stats.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Exactly why Novak had a hard time reading it consistently 2014-2015.

He did?

 

[MasturB]

He did?

Yes. Dubai, Cincinnati, WTF, 5 setter in Wimby in 2014.

Please show me who Novak had a tougher time consistently returning against those 2 years.

 

[True Fanerer]

This kinda shows the flaws with these sorts of stats considering Federer was by far better in 2017 despite having the worst stats.

A bunch of 5 setters at AO against quality opponents combined with a tiebreaker filled Miami contributed to it.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Yes. Dubai, Cincinnati, WTF, 5 setter in Wimby in 2014.

Please show me who Novak had a tougher time consistently returning against those 2 years.

But Novak handled Fraud's serve just fine in the important matches.
Anderson and Karlovic.

 

[Wander]

Extremely similar numbers to start each year. I put his return numbers being slightly down in 2019 to a couple of individual poor return performances like the Tsitsipas match in AO. In Miami he of course started returning better and better as the tournament progressed.

 

[tennis_pro]

2019>2018>2017

1 year more experience each year

 

[Red Rick]

Unbelievable how his % are +/- 2% in mostly every service stat the last three years. Double fault % has remain unchanged.

Also still funny to me how Red Rick still doesn't think Roger is in discussion for best server of all time.

Because he's not top 50 all time in ace% and that's the only stat not absolutely roflbuffed due to being an ATG baseliner.

Like the only way Fed should be in the discussion is in the form of 'Lmao Fed not even close'

 

[Red Rick]

Fed doesn't have a high ace rate but his unreturned serve numbers are pretty damn good.

His serve is godlike because he's not 7 feet tall with a favorable angle to hit it into the box. His serve is godlike because of the unbelievable accuracy and consistency.

His service patterns are pretty much the same over and over and it allows him to hit offensive short balls.

If you actually break down his service game you'd understand why his serve is one of the ATG's. It goes beyond raw ace numbers.

Comparing Isner/Ivo serve to Fed's is dumb, which is what Red Rick routinely does.

MasturB "Lmao Red Rick obviously Fed's in the discussion for best serve of all time"

Red Rick *compares Fed's serve to best of all time*

MasturB

 

[Red Rick]

Like dude you're literally calling me a dumbass for NOT making a mistake any first year science student would laugh at.

 

[Noletheking]

Federer has one of the best service games ever.
Doesn't mean he is the best server ever.
What follows his serve is so great that he wins a lot of service games.
It doesn't imply that his serve is as good as the big guys.
He is too good at identifying short balls and ending his service points in 2-3 shots.
Ofcourse his serve is brilliant but no, not in contention for best ever.

Thing is Roger serve is very underrated. He has always outpaced big servers and has won many matches solely on serve(07 wim final) he served bombs on 3 set points .

 

[Red Rick]

Thing is Roger serve is very underrated. He has always outpaced big servers and has won many matches solely on serve(07 wim final) he served bombs on 3 set points .

You can't seriously watch a like 80% of pundits rate it top 10 of all time and then say it's underrated.

Like zomg he outserves Nadal in a grass match. You confuse the big stage of the match with what's actually happening. He's outserving a better baseliner. No better baseliner than Fed has a serve that's any special.

 

[Noletheking]

O

You can't seriously watch a like 80% of pundits rate it top 10 of all time and then say it's underrated.

Like zomg he outserves Nadal in a grass match. You confuse the big stage of the match with what's actually happening. He's outserving a better baseliner. No better baseliner than Fed has a serve that's any special.

It was out aced not outpaced (my bad ) typo he out aced Roddick whenever th3y played.

 

[Wander]

O
It was outpaced not outpaced (my bad ) typo he out aced Roddick whenever th3y played.

Yes, because he's a much better returner than Roddick was, but he did not out-ace Roddick against the field.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

As an enjoyer of popcorn, I'm always happy to observe a good old @Red Rick jimmy rustle.

 

[tudwell]

Looks like he's taken something off his first serve so far this year. 2% fewer aces but 3% more first serves in play. Not sure how significant that is based on the sample size, but so far at least it's clearly different form the last two years.

 

[Noletheking]

Yes, because he's a much better returner than Roddick was, but he did not out-ace Roddick against the field.

Ace is more about placement and Roger is king of it. Roddick had pace but no placement. Djokovic is also a great returner but he doesn't out ace Fed. You are grossly underrating Fed serve. He has out aced Roddick and Big servers by good numbers in every gs match. Why Djokovic doesn't out ace big servers ? He's the best returner in history.

 

[tudwell]

Because he's not top 50 all time in ace% and that's the only stat not absolutely roflbuffed due to being an ATG baseliner.

Like the only way Fed should be in the discussion is in the form of 'Lmao Fed not even close'

If there were some way to, like, weight serve performance against height, Fed would certainly be in the discussion, I think. Since the move to graphite, I think the only player 6'1" or shorter who has a clearly better serve than Fed (or even one on the same level) is Sampras. And I think you'd have to get up to players 6'4" or taller to find any other serve in recent years on their level. They both punch way above their weight, er... height, when it comes to serving.

In raw terms, yeah, there are tons of taller guys with way better serves. But in relative terms, it's an interesting discussion.

 

[Red Rick]

If there were some way to, like, weight serve performance against height, Fed would certainly be in the discussion, I think. Since the move to graphite, I think the only player 6'1" or shorter who has a clearly better serve than Fed (or even one on the same level) is Sampras. And I think you'd have to get up to players 6'4" or taller to find any other serve in recent years on their level. They both punch way above their weight, er... height, when it comes to serving.

In raw terms, yeah, there are tons of taller guys with way better serves. But in relative terms, it's an interesting discussion.

Except people insist he's ATG regardless of height. Inch for inch Roddick is clearly better as well

Ace is more about placement and Roger is king of it. Roddick had pace but no placement. Djokovic is also a great returner but he doesn't out ace Fed. You are grossly underrating Fed serve. He has out aced Roddick and Big servers by good numbers in every gs match. Why Djokovic doesn't out ace big servers ? He's the best returner in history.

Gee if placement is so much more important than pace then why is the king of placement like 79th in career ace%?

 

[Deleted member 743545]

Ace is more about placement and Roger is king of it. Roddick had pace but no placement. Djokovic is also a great returner but he doesn't out ace Fed. You are grossly underrating Fed serve. He has out aced Roddick and Big servers by good numbers in every gs match. Why Djokovic doesn't out ace big servers ? He's the best returner in history.

Lol at Roddick had pace but no placement. Berdych, Del Potro or even Cilic are someone who had pace but no placement.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...r-serve-prime-roddick-or-prime-federer.544956

An older thread about Roddick and Federer serve. Fed's serve is overrated, not underrated (at least on this board).

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Except people insist he's ATG regardless of height. Inch for inch Roddick is clearly better as well


Gee if placement is so much more important than pace then why is the king of placement like 79th in career ace%?

Probably higher in unreturned serve %, still far from top ofc. Placement creates more missed returns than direct aces, I think.

 

[tudwell]

Except people insist he's ATG regardless of height. Inch for inch Roddick is clearly better as well

Well, I would disagree with those people. And whoops, forgot Roddick! I'd agree he's also clearly superior, even if we were to somehow adjust serve numbers based on height.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Lol at Roddick having no placement though, gosh this place sometimes.

 

[ollinger]

Too lazy to organize, sue me.

Avenatti and I will be in touch

 

[Deleted member 743545]

Well, I would disagree with those people. And whoops, forgot Roddick! I'd agree he's also clearly superior, even if we were to somehow adjust serve numbers based on height.

Almagro also had a pretty solid serve for his height. Better than Fed IMO.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Almagro also had a pretty solid serve for his height. Better than Fed IMO.

Almagro is just one inch shorter, according to official height data.

 

[tudwell]

Almagro also had a pretty solid serve for his height. Better than Fed IMO.

More power, for sure, but better overall?

A quick glance at their stats on the ATP site and it looks like Almagro has a significantly higher ace %, but hits more double faults, gets in fewer first serves, and wins fewer overall first serve points. Narrowed it down just to hard since Almagro played so much on clay. Almagro out-acing Federer is impressive, given his height, but I would also say he doesn't have the consistency or probably the variety and placement that Fed has, so I'm not sure I'd say it's better overall, even considering he's an inch shorter.

 

[BGod]

It's clearly a decline. I mean, he DID win the AO in 2018 so him getting a W and F at the Sunshine Double doesn't beat a Slam win.

 

[Wander]

Ace is more about placement and Roger is king of it. Roddick had pace but no placement. Djokovic is also a great returner but he doesn't out ace Fed. You are grossly underrating Fed serve. He has out aced Roddick and Big servers by good numbers in every gs match. Why Djokovic doesn't out ace big servers ? He's the best returner in history.

I am "grossly underrating Fed serve" when I state the fact that Federer hit consistently fewer aces against the field than Roddick?

Why doesn't Djokovic out ace big servers, but Federer does? Funnily enough, Djokovic out-aced Roddick in all the matches he won between the two, and in one of the ones he lost. Federer also got out-aced in 2 of his 3 losses against Roddick (tied at 9-9 in aces in the third one), and he got out-aced a couple of times in the matches he won too.

Also, Federer has never out-aced Karlovic in any of their 14 meetings.

I have never said anything disparaging about Roger's serve. It's an incredibly effective serve. A better weapon than that of almost anyone his height or shorter in history.

But it is not in contention for the best serve ever unless you start doing height adjustment and adding in the post-serve game (serve + forehand etc.).

 

[Noletheking]

I am "grossly underrating Fed serve" when I state the fact that Federer hit consistently fewer aces against the field than Roddick?

Why doesn't Djokovic out ace big servers, but Federer does? Funnily enough, Djokovic out-aced Roddick in all the matches he won between the two, and in one of the ones he lost. Federer also got out-aced in 2 of his 3 losses against Roddick (tied at 9-9 in aces in the third one), and he got out-aced a couple of times in the matches he won too.

Also, Federer has never out-aced Karlovic in any of their 14 meetings.

I have never said anything disparaging about Roger's serve. It's an incredibly effective serve. A better weapon than that of almost anyone his height or shorter in history.

But it is not in contention for the best serve ever unless you start doing height adjustment and adding in the post-serve game (serve + forehand etc.).

Again you're bringing Karlovic who is goat servers. It's useless to talk to you if you have to go to that extreme .

 

[Noletheking]

Lol at Roddick had pace but no placement. Berdych, Del Potro or even Cilic are someone who had pace but no placement.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...r-serve-prime-roddick-or-prime-federer.544956

An older thread about Roddick and Federer serve. Fed's serve is overrated, not underrated (at least on this board).

When you look at fed serve in big matches in finals and semi you would understand it. His serve alone won him 5th set against Nadal in 07. He aced more than Rod in 2009 final and his serve kept him in match in 08 final Wimbledon. You don't out ace big servers without being one of the best servers in game.

 

[Deleted member 743545]

When you look at fed serve in big matches in finals and semi you would understand it. His serve alone won him 5th set against Nadal in 07. He aced more than Rod in 2009 final and his serve kept him in match in 08 final Wimbledon. You don't out ace big servers without being one of the best servers in game.

One of the best servers for sure. But he is not a better server than Roddick.

 

[Noletheking]

One of the best servers for sure. But he is not a better server than Roddick.

His serve is as effective as Roddick

 

[Wander]

His serve is as effective as Roddick

Do you think Roddick would have won more if his serve got replaced with Roger's serve, everything else remaining the same?

 

[Red Rick]

Do you think Roddick would have won more if his serve got replaced with Roger's serve, everything else remaining the same?

If they switch serves, Roddick never breaks top 5, Federer wins 30 Slams.

 

[Sport]

His serve is as effective as Roddick

I agree with most of your comments. However, I searched for some stats.

Look at this:

Federer: 10.960 aces in 1.402 matches = 7.81 aces per match.

Roddick: 9.068 aces in 776 matches = 11.68 aces per match.

https://www.atptour.com/es/stats/aces

 

[Noletheking]

I agree with most of your comments. However, I searched for some stats.

Look at this:

Federer: 10.960 aces in 1.402 matches = 7.81 aces per match.

Roddick: 9.068 aces in 776 matches = 11.68 aces per match.

https://www.atptour.com/es/stats/aces

Stats per service game would be more apt comparison.

 

[Noletheking]

Do you think Roddick would have won more if his serve got replaced with Roger's serve, everything else remaining the same?

No ,he didn't have complete game and movement to compete in modern baseline era. With better volley he would have won more in fast condition though.

 

[ghostofMecir]

Federer has one of the best service games ever.
Doesn't mean he is the best server ever.
What follows his serve is so great that he wins a lot of service games.
It doesn't imply that his serve is as good as the big guys.
He is too good at identifying short balls and ending his service points in 2-3 shots.
Ofcourse his serve is brilliant but no, not in contention for best ever.

All this, but if we’re talking inch for inch, he and Pete are by far the best servers ever.

—Little variance in ball toss
—placement to all parts of the AD and DEUCE courts (screwdriver up the T on the AD 2nd best ever behind Pete’s; serve out wide on the deuce court over the high part of the net THE best ever with Pete second other than that of trees, of course) —amazing kicker on the second serve
—has remained s dominant server even with loss of pace. He was serving st 117 to 122 MPH through most of Miami.

 

[Noletheking]

All this, but if we’re talking inch for inch, he and Pete are by far the best servers ever.

—Little variance in ball toss
—placement to all parts of the AD and DEUCE courts (screwdriver up the T on the AD 2nd best ever behind Pete’s; serve out wide on the deuce court over the high part of the net THE best ever with Pete second other than that of trees, of course) —amazing kicker on the second serve
—has remained s dominant server even with loss of pace. He was serving st 117 to 122 MPH through most of Miami.

I don't think he's as good as Pete but his serve has always been one of his big weapon and he's right there with best servers .