Feedback on serves

[emcee]

Here is some video of my serve using the Sony Smart Sensor. Any feedback on how to improve it?

First of all, my serve looked a lot prettier in my mind. I guess I should be holding my arm straight up like the standard trophy position, not whatever this is.

My momentum seems to carry me right to left for some reason...is there a particular reason why? Does not seem optimal.

My toss might be too high since I seem to pause a lot before actually swinging.

And finally, not sure if the 94 MPH one was a fluke but I do usually get a few high 80s or low 90s in my sessions according to the sensor. Seems like I inadvertently flattened this one out. Any tips on how to hit these more consistently?

Also I guess you have to take my word (and memory) for it that these serves were either in or out by not a horrible amount. Should have thought of getting an angle that would show that.

 

[5263]

You likely launch to the left due to the toss not being in a better area out front and maybe also due to little to no angle between the forearm and racket at the wrist/grip.

Big thing to me is matching your toss to your serve intention. Your current toss looks to be pretty good for a kick serve, but not a slice or power serve. Many other things have to be wrong due to that to compensate for the toss location. Once you improve the toss, others things will get better and only then can we see where you should improve next. Trying to improve technique while having a poorly located toss will just have you chasing compensations forced by the toss location.

 

[RetroSpin]

All arm, no shoulder.

 

[emcee]

You likely launch to the left due to the toss not being in a better area out front and maybe also due to little to no angle between the forearm and racket at the wrist/grip.

Big thing to me is matching your toss to your serve intention. Your current toss looks to be pretty good for a kick serve, but not a slice or power serve. Many other things have to be wrong due to that to compensate for the toss location. Once you improve the toss, others things will get better and only then can we see where you should improve next. Trying to improve technique while having a poorly located toss will just have you chasing compensations forced by the toss location.

Thanks, so you think I should toss more in front and to the right for a flatter serve? I realize the angle makes it hard to tell. My general motion is that of a kick serve so some of these are supposed to be kick serves that I am trying to swing out on. But they are kind of cream puff serves when I actually play a match.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Now it is OK in Quicktime. ?

(I downloaded the video and went to play it in my usual default Quicktime and it is not working. Does this video do something to the default viewer?

Maybe just an issue of my computer ?)

 

[emcee]

Now it is OK in Quicktime. ?

(I downloaded the video and went to play it in my usual default Quicktime and it is not working. Does this video do something to the default viewer?

Maybe just an issue my computer ?)

It was actually originally a .mov file so it's strange if it doesn't work in Quicktime after downloading...hope it works.

 

[5263]

Thanks, so you think I should toss more in front and to the right for a flatter serve? I realize the angle makes it hard to tell. My general motion is that of a kick serve so some of these are supposed to be kick serves that I am trying to swing out on. But they are kind of cream puff serves when I actually play a match.

I don't think you want to mix the ideas of kick serve with hitting out on serves. That kick serve toss location is Not a good power producing location.

 

[skuludo]

I can see what you are doing that leads to low swing speed on the sensor. What you are doing is you start the swing the left side and stopping at the right shoulder. Your right shoulder would never pass the baseline if you planted your foot on the floor. To get a faster swing speed with the sensor I think your right shoulder should end up in the front when you do the cart wheel shoulder over shoulder move. <-- This would just be a check point for the swing

Right now your serve lacks a forward component in the swing. Once the left shoulder drops, the right shoulder should be at the top. Next the right shoulder should pass your eyes if you were looking sideways at a 90 degree angle with the baseline.

 

[heninfan99]

Would be great if you could go to a Playsight facility so we can compare the numbers to the Sony Smart Sensor. I doubt the numbers would match but who knows. Would be interesting.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I look at posters serves and point out issues that I think are different from high level serves. You should compare your serve video to high level servers.

There is too much motion blur to see the racket. Try again in direct sunlight so that sharp shadows are seen. That may speed up the shutter speed and reduce the motion blur.

A serve at Big L position (1st frame) and the next frame very near to impact. Looks as if internal shoulder rotation might have occurred but I can't tell with the motion blur. Placing tape markers around elbow will help show ISR. Your overall body looks very upright, trunk and arm not tilted forward. This will vary with high level servers. Raonic is an example of the very forward body and arm position at impact with the left foot also landing well into the court. Compare to high level servers at impact - especially your tilt and head position.

On 4 serves your foot landed on the baseline, little forward body motion. On the above serve the foot moved forward heel inside court. On some of your serves the foot landed more forward. Inconsistent toss. Compare to other high level serves from a camera side view looking perpendicular to the ball's trajectory. Your head is up looking at the ball at impact. A considerable percent of high level servers are also looking at the ball. That is OK. But most high level servers are not still looking at impact. Speculating - Looking at the ball at impact probably restricts the amount of forward body bending or Somersault that the server can do without stressing the neck. Compare. Your Somersault motion does not look very effective and you seem to impact too straight up. Watch your upper body/head and see the bend forward for all your serves. Compare to your model server or to some high level servers. I just looked mostly at this serve and not all of your serves.

Screening for Waiter's Tray error. Does your serve look like Nalbandian's racket 'edge-on' to the ball or 'face-on' to the ball for Waiter's Tray error?
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

Your racket is very blurry hardly visible at the Big L position in the above frame on the left. First guess is that the racket blur looks more edge on. ?? You need a faster shutter speed to see this better. You need high speed video to see enough frames to observe your faster racket motion.

 

[LeeD]

Don't pay too much attention to your posted ball speeds, as your swing, forward drive, and spin do not equal to your numbers.
You have a nice arm swing. Could use more leg drive up and forwards, more arch, more rotation, more ab crunch, and more pronation.
More pronation allows the racket to flatten out on the ball, giving higher ball speeds, less RPM's, less consistency.
Slow down and set for serves. You don't have the motion, toss, and idea set into your body, so don't copy the pros who rush between their serves. YOU need to think before you serve.

 

[emcee]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. For now I am focusing on keeping my arm straight when tossing to at least get a more consistent toss and work from there, and experiment with placements. I do have some slow-mo video but my phone took an entire video in slow-mo and thus is 15 minutes long or so. I'll see if I can post some screenshots as it should be 240 FPS.

 

[LeeD]

Straightening the toss arm is nice, but not essential to more power, more consistency, of your SWING.
You can start the process by your prep position adjustment. Just hold the ball ABOVE your racket, so you start the toss from a higher starting point. And think of PLACING the ball up there, not throwing it up there.

 

[emcee]

I look at posters serves and point out issues that I think are different from high level serves. You should compare your serve video to high level servers.

There is too much motion blur to see the racket. Try again in direct sunlight so that sharp shadows are seen. That may speed up the shutter speed and reduce the motion blur.

A serve at Big L position (1st frame) and the next frame very near to impact. Looks as if internal shoulder rotation might have occurred but I can't tell with the motion blur. Placing tape markers around elbow will help show ISR. Your overall body looks very upright, trunk and arm not tilted forward. This will vary with high level servers. Raonic is an example of the very forward body and arm position at impact with the left foot also landing well into the court. Compare to high level servers at impact - especially your tilt and head position.

On 4 serves your foot landed on the baseline, little forward body motion. On the above serve the foot moved forward heel inside court. On some of your serves the foot landed more forward. Inconsistent toss. Compare to other high level serves from a camera side view looking perpendicular to the ball's trajectory. Your head is up looking at the ball at impact. A considerable percent of high level servers are also looking at the ball. That is OK. But most high level servers are not still looking at impact. Speculating - Looking at the ball at impact probably restricts the amount of forward body bending or Somersault that the server can do without stressing the neck. Compare. Your Somersault motion does not look very effective and you seem to impact too straight up. Watch your upper body/head and see the bend forward for all your serves. Compare to your model server or to some high level servers. I just looked mostly at this serve and not all of your serves.

Screening for Waiter's Tray error. Does your serve look like Nalbandian's racket 'edge-on' to the ball or 'face-on' to the ball for Waiter's Tray error?
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

Your racket is very blurry hardly visible at the Big L position in the above frame on the left. First guess is that the racket blur looks more edge on. ?? You need a faster shutter speed to see this better. You need high speed video to see enough frames to observe your faster racket motion.

Here is the slo mo version if you want to look at it. It is less blurry and has many more FPS.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Frame #1. Trophy Position to show grip. I don't try to diagnose grips from videos. Is there a bevel difference between placement of your index knuckle? Check grip.

Frame #2.

Frame #3. Your legs are just starting to thrust upward. The blue line indicates the 'Hip Thrust' or body side bend into the court. You don't seem to have it. Compare to high level servers. Your forearm and racket have gone back and lowered too much too early, in my opinion. (Jay Berger calls early racket drop 'racket leaking.') Often the legs of a high level server start upward thrust with the racket forward of Trophy Position and continue along with other motions, Cartwheel (a shoulder over shoulder motion), trunk turn/twist, and Somersault ( a forward bend at the waist). These motions cause the external shoulder rotation as seen by the forearm and racket rotating backwards and down. Compare the timing and forearm and racket positions to high level servers.

Frame #4. Near impact. (The lower thing that looks like a ball is not the ball.) Too much motion blur to see the ball and racket. You are looking at the ball and reaching high to hit it. Most high level servers break off looking at the ball just before impact - I believe, so that they do not stress their necks. ? Tsonga looks at the ball to impact and then brings his head down extremely fast. Raonic does not attempt to look at impact and looks down before impact. I don't think that you move your upper body forward like high level servers. And that's linked to looking up at the ball and holding your head looking up. ? I'd say that you do not have much forward motion in your service motion. Compare how upright you are at impact to high level servers.

Frame #5. You land with your foot on the line and your right leg to the side instead of behind you. You do not do Somersault - bending forward at the waist and your right leg has no need to fly up behind you for balance. Probably your toss is also not enough into the court.

Frame #6. Impact with little forward body tilt, arm tilt. Head fighting to look at ball and preventing upper body from bending forward. Compare to high level servers. Raonic moves forward more than most, his foot lands well in the court and he has more trunk and arm tilt than most. I see your arm rotation after impact. But the camera angle and motion blur don't allow me to see internal shoulder rotation before impact in these videos. I am used to looking from behind along the trajectory and seeing an angle between the forearm and racket leading to impact - can't see it because of your camera angle and motion blur. See video below. Your upper arm looks too high up in this frame. See Ellenbecker video and the recommendation for the upper arm alignment relative to the line between the two shoulders. This upper arm position increases risk of shoulder impingement. This picture should have a red line.

Frame #7. Landing again with little forward motion of the foot. Body tilt to left and right leg to side.

General impression - are you doing ISR before impact? Some players may have the idea to reach as high as possible to impact the ball. I don't think that high level servers do that.

Viewed from behind looking along the ball's trajectory, do you have this forearm-racket angle at impact?

Raonic serve showing no ball watching at impact, forward motion and trunk, arm and racket angles at impact. Raonic moves forward more than most others.

Tsonga looking at the ball at impact and then suddenly looking down, he's fast.

 

[Chas Tennis]

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