Felix on Toni as coach

daggerman

Hall of Fame
Everytime I see FAA play I keep waiting for an angle, a dropshot, a slice, an approach or a moonball. It seems he only hits 'regulation' forehands and backhands left and right. He's good enough at that to beat a lot of players, but it doesn't get him through the big guys.
I agree that he needs to incorporate those elements in his game even more, but I can't say I don't see them at all when he plays. He hit one of the best short angle inside-out forehands I've seen all tournament against Alcaraz. Hit several effective (and a couple ineffective) drop shots. He's used his slice more this year than in previous years, especially on grass. His entire game is coming around.
 

SonnyT

Hall of Fame
Felix was the one who decided that his coaching team needed extra help, and went out and got it. Usually players at such young age can't see the big picture, and don't know what they need. Reminded me of Djokovic and his Becker decision, but Djokovic was at a much older age. Technically, physically and mentally, FAA has it all. Medvedev better beat him Friday, or he might never do it at Slams.
 

tex123

Professional
Definitely, but I said in the rankings
Does not mean much if you can't win titles. Ferrer was no 3. He used to call himself the worst no 3 but he at least won titles. He will make runs to the quarters and semis with his no-weapon consistent game. That's about it. Nice guy. Works hard. Serve has improved. Unless Toni can work up some magic, he's not winning anything.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Does not mean much if you can't win titles. Ferrer was no 3. He used to call himself the worst no 3 but he at least won titles. He will make runs to the quarters and semis with his no-weapon consistent game. That's about it. Nice guy. Works hard. Serve has improved. Unless Toni can work up some magic, he's not winning anything.
There are players who go their whole career without a title, so I'm not worried about Auger-Aliassime, even though he has yet to close it out in the final yet. Besides, his competition in those finals was almost always better than the players Sinner played in his finals.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
Sinner is feeling the pressure of expectations now
Sinner : "Before, I played the game very free. Maybe at the Next Gen Finals I had nothing to lose, I went on the pitch and threw bombs. Now things are different, the others know me and I can't always throw a thousand. I'm in the second. phase of my growth ".
Yes, it was good interview. He seems pretty honest about where he is today. He's getting closer by the tournament to a top 10 berth.

I think the indoor season will be an interesting challenge for him. On the one hand, the speed should help him a bit from a serving perspective. The problem is that he'll lose a lot of time on the return which is the hallmark of his game.
 

tex123

Professional
There are players who go their whole career without a title, so I'm not worried about Auger-Aliassime, even though he has yet to close it out in the final yet. Besides, his competition in those finals was almost always better than the players Sinner played in his finals.
He's got to be worried about the mental scar tissue. The longer (title drought) it goes on, the harder it becomes. Sinner does not have that problem. He's already a winner.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
He's got to be worried about the mental scar tissue. The longer (title drought) it goes on, the harder it becomes. Sinner does not have that problem. He's already a winner.
Nerves are nerves, and to conquer them you have to change your mentality. You can get nervous even with a Slam under your belt.
 

daddy

Legend
To be clear, I didn't say he was "not a pro and can't comment", I just said I found it laughable when recreational players critique a professional's game. He can comment all he wants, I just think he has absolutely no idea what 'medicore' is at the professional level.

He's commenting as if he's walked onto the court against Felix and has run down his shots for 2 hours. The truth is, 99% of the people here wouldn't get 2 points off of him. So how in the world could we judge him to be 'mediocre'?
I'm responding to his original comment where he sarcastically said that I should not critique a player because I'm a rec. player - http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/felix-on-toni-as-coach.708243/post-15717199

By his logic, most on this forum should not critique a player. When did I say he can't comment?
Neither of you said "you can't comment" literally but both of you were disputing what the other one said via a classic ad hominem, you can't escape that. Since when do you need to be a top 10 to comment on say Dimitrov's inconsistency or something like that ? It's a flawed logic, that's all, if you are watching & playing tennis you can comment and not being on a certain level does not mean you can't see the difference between atg, great and average shot.
 

daddy

Legend
That's what I was also saying lol. if you're tactically good and consistent, you don't need an ATG level shot. And if you're tactically illiterate, those shots won't help.
I just mentioned dimitrov somewhere, maybe I should mention gasquet's backhand and monfils and all these other flamboyant shotmakers who underperformed spectacularly ( or did they, maybe they were overhyped ) because everyone was expecting them to miraculously rack up win after win, disregarding other aspects of their games which were lacking and focusing on the stand out shots. Not really sure which ones would I mention from the nxgen since they are still in it with a chance but I am sure we all agree on this.
 

tex123

Professional
Some people got offended when I call FAA mediocre. I take no pleasure in posting this. But he's not there. Nice guy. Some improvement in serves. He'll make runs to quarters and semis. That's about it.

As you can see from Med-FAA match, he has a lot to work on to be able to win titles. His game is so mechanical. It does not flow. Hope he finds some positives from the loss.
 

tex123

Professional
Neither of you said "you can't comment" literally but both of you were disputing what the other one said via a classic ad hominem, you can't escape that. Since when do you need to be a top 10 to comment on say Dimitrov's inconsistency or something like that ? It's a flawed logic, that's all, if you are watching & playing tennis you can comment and not being on a certain level does not mean you can't see the difference between atg, great and average shot.
Give it a rest Daddy. You're no mediator. Have a good day or evening!
 

daddy

Legend
Give it a rest Daddy. You're no mediator. Have a good day or evening!
I had no intention to be, just stating the obvious. If you have no intention on accepting your flaws, you are damned to live with them is all. Ditto.
 

Aabye5

Hall of Fame
:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D

I just love when recreational players come onto a forum and critique a professional players game.
"He has no weapons. He should play more like Brooksby. That guy plays like the 4.0 player in my league." ~your local rec player's detailed critique.
 

tex123

Professional
That is why Felix is in the U.S.Open semifinals. No weapons and a mediocre game. Lol.
And does he get past semi finals? Ferrer made semis. Does he win titles? People just don't want to accept reality. He does not have the game to win at the moment. It does not flow. Unless Toni can work some magic, I don't see him winning.
 
Last edited:

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
Can you make a mediocre player a slam winner? It remains to be seen. If he can, Toni will be the GOAT coach. No question marks whatsoever.
Are you **** serious ? The guy is becoming Number 11 in the **** world. Did you even understand what mean to be top 100 in any profession in the whole f***** world ? Damn if i was top 100 in just my country i would be mad happy and proud.
People don't realize how hard this guys have worked and what it means to be in top 20 or close to it.
And just because you played a tennis on whatever level you have been played, doesn't mean you know a *****(or vice-versa as well). Same with players that have absolutely been great, doesn't mean they will be great coaches.
And we see more example of the completely opposite. The so call "medicore" players that latter turn out to be great coaches.

And while i'm not a fan of Felix(doesn't have anything against the kid tho), the guy is 21, and have very solid game all around. He just need to put it together and make a system from his game and then start to do the correction. Also(don't know if that was you or someone else) saying he has no weapon is another ridiculous statement. He is taking the ball very early, and he have a great fast acceleration on his racket, and nothing is lacked in his game. He just need to make it a system(to pretty much put it together and work on that). And yeah everyone knows he need to work on his fighting spirit and mentality.

Toni is NOT a great coach. Nadal was an exceptional athlete and would have succeeded with anyone. In fact Toni held Rafa back.

With a better coach, Nadal would have had better ROS, serve and won more slams. Tony is the reason, Nadal could never surpass Fed/Novak.
Nonsenses. If it wasn't for Toni, Nadal would have been right hander, you know when then he would have won so many matches just for example against Federer? It would have been BH against BH, and not FH against BH on the diagonal part.
Not to mention all the tactics and antics. If you look at Nadal in 2004 for example, he was serving quite fast, and not stretch the time between point, and he was suffer big time, because of exhaustion of his style and not focus properly giving him more time to relax and do a better serve, and as way to put a doubt into his opponents. Same with a lot of the med. timeouts and so. This was all tactical stuffs. Toni Nadal was also super loud on court and was coaching big time, but it wasn't a problem back then.
He also make Nadal the grinder and the fighter he is. Yeah he is doing great without him, but he was already built in, and when you are build in with that fighting spirit and mentality, you going to rock.
Both Nadal and Djoko have done insane good job with their team. Federer have not through his career tho and he suffer the most in that aspect, as well as from tactical standpoint.
 

tex123

Professional
Are you **** serious ? The guy is becoming Number 11 in the **** world. Did you even understand what mean to be top 100 in any profession in the whole f***** world ? Damn if i was top 100 in just my country i would be mad happy and proud.
People don't realize how hard this guys have worked and what it means to be in top 20 or close to it.
And just because you played a tennis on whatever level you have been played, doesn't mean you know a *****(or vice-versa as well). Same with players that have absolutely been great, doesn't mean they will be great coaches.
And we see more example of the completely opposite. The so call "medicore" players that latter turn out to be great coaches.

And while i'm not a fan of Felix(doesn't have anything against the kid tho), the guy is 21, and have very solid game all around. He just need to put it together and make a system from his game and then start to do the correction. Also(don't know if that was you or someone else) saying he has no weapon is another ridiculous statement. He is taking the ball very early, and he have a great fast acceleration on his racket, and nothing is lacked in his game. He just need to make it a system(to pretty much put it together and work on that). And yeah everyone knows he need to work on his fighting spirit and mentality.



Nonsenses. If it wasn't for Toni, Nadal would have been right hander, you know when then he would have won so many matches just for example against Federer? It would have been BH against BH, and not FH against BH on the diagonal part.
Not to mention all the tactics and antics. If you look at Nadal in 2004 for example, he was serving quite fast, and not stretch the time between point, and he was suffer big time, because of exhaustion of his style and not focus properly giving him more time to relax and do a better serve, and as way to put a doubt into his opponents. Same with a lot of the med. timeouts and so. This was all tactical stuffs. Toni Nadal was also super loud on court and was coaching big time, but it wasn't a problem back then.
He also make Nadal the grinder and the fighter he is. Yeah he is doing great without him, but he was already built in, and when you are build in with that fighting spirit and mentality, you going to rock.
Both Nadal and Djoko have done insane good job with their team. Federer have not through his career tho and he suffer the most in that aspect, as well as from tactical standpoint.
Would you go to that length to defend Ferrer or Berdych or Dimitrov or Gasquet or someone else? Most on the forum call them mugs. They were in top 5.

"Mediocre" has to be seen in context. The gap is too big between him and others above him. Sinner already has weapons and titles. He doesn't.



Toni never made Rafa become a left handed player. That's wrong. He was ambidextrous. All he did was ask Rafa to pick one. His management of 2014-15 was horrible. It was more a case of Rafa making Toni a legend. He's a good coach. GOAT coach? I have my doubts.
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
And it can be say that the gap is too big between him and the rest that are behind him, isn't it?
Neither Grigor, neither Gasquet or Berdych or Ferrer or anyone been in the top 10, can be say to be mediocre.
And it's one thing to trash someone in a match thread, where you are emotional and not put much into it, and completely different in such thread.
And all your post after your initial, and that you have to put an excuse after excuse, just show you how wrong you have been. Would have been easier to just say that you were wrong with what you say.
Looking and compare everyone to Fed, Nadal and Djokovic, we can make everyone mediocre compare to them.
Again people don't realize it. Look at the bigger picture, and imagine you being in a top 100 in the world in whatever profession there is out there. It's exactly the same here.


As for Nadal i think someone have said it(either Rafa or Toni) that it was his uncle that made him go for the lefty. As far as Toni being a GOAT coach i never stated anything.
And everyone have bad periods, that doesn't make the coach good or bad, simple as that.
 

tex123

Professional
And it can be say that the gap is too big between him and the rest that are behind him, isn't it?
Neither Grigor, neither Gasquet or Berdych or Ferrer or anyone been in the top 10, can be say to be mediocre.
And it's one thing to trash someone in a match thread, where you are emotional and not put much into it, and completely different in such thread.
And all your post after your initial, and that you have to put an excuse after excuse, just show you how wrong you have been. Would have been easier to just say that you were wrong with what you say.
Looking and compare everyone to Fed, Nadal and Djokovic, we can make everyone mediocre compare to them.
Again people don't realize it. Look at the bigger picture, and imagine you being in a top 100 in the world in whatever profession there is out there. It's exactly the same here.


As for Nadal i think someone have said it(either Rafa or Toni) that it was his uncle that made him go for the lefty. As far as Toni being a GOAT coach i never stated anything.
And everyone have bad periods, that doesn't make the coach good or bad, simple as that.
Sorry. I don't agree with that. If you want to rise, look at people ahead of you. As Stan said, always fail better. He has reached semis which is a good thing under Toni. But, as you could see from Med match, the gap is too big. This is not a match thread. The post you quoted was written well before the match. Sure big 3 are far ahead but Murray , Stan, Delpo and Cilic made their mark. He needs to win some masters first and develop a one two punch. His serve has improved which he can use to dictate with his forehand. But then his forehand is not a weapon. I can't see him as a defender either.

Under Toni, Rafa used to run around like a rabbit chasing balls. He used to practice for hours and played so many tournaments to feel the ball better. Who knows how much of tennis life it took out of him. Under Moya, he practises less and does more focussed drills to prolong his career. He improved his serve and backhand. Unfortunately his body is done and Moya can't work with a broken body.
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
Bro you obviously messed up, and now trying to compensate and find excuses for your post .... You can't say a 21 years old with a 1/4 and a 1/2 final on GS already a mediocre player - period.
And he lost to Number 2, which is no shame at all.
I can be a great programmer, one of the best, and still be miles ahead of the top 10, is that making me mediocre? Absolutely no !

Nadal under Moya was already a well developed beast with a championship mentality and fighting spirit. Toni build him like that, and he always have stated that he wouldn't be the tennis player he is, without his uncle take him from the very beginning.
Again everything that Nadal is currently is thanks to Toni.
As far as what Nadal could have been without Toni is pure speculation.
 

tex123

Professional
Bro you obviously messed up, and now trying to compensate and find excuses for your post .... You can't say a 21 years old with a 1/4 and a 1/2 final on GS already a mediocre player - period.
And he lost to Number 2, which is no shame at all.
I can be a great programmer, one of the best, and still be miles ahead of the top 10, is that making me mediocre? Absolutely no !

Nadal under Moya was already a well developed beast with a championship mentality and fighting spirit. Toni build him like that, and he always have stated that he wouldn't be the tennis player he is, without his uncle take him from the very beginning.
Again everything that Nadal is currently is thanks to Toni.
As far as what Nadal could have been without Toni is pure speculation.
Dude. I never changed my position. It is how you and some others are interpreting it. When I'm saying mediocre, I'm not comparing him to club or rec. players. That is just silly. How can you even think that?You can only compare him with his peers. And his tennis is not good enough.
How many titles has he won?. He does know what type of player he wants to become. Neither defensive nor aggressive. Mediocre.

What would you say about Dimitrov, Gasquet, Ferrer, Verdasco, Almagro etc.?
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
Do you understand there is probably millions+ people playing tennis and want to be Pro ? But just a silly number of them manage to do so. And just a very very very very(let me write it one more time so you can get it) manage to get to top 20, forget about top 10, and he is very close to being there, and the guy is still 21 years old. He ain't mediocre in any means.
If you compare him only to the top 3 or top 5, which you obviously do, and it's ridiculous, because this is not the only pro tennis players in the world, yeah it can look mediocre in your eyes, but again the statement is ridiculous.

I already answer you about Dimtriov, Gasquet, Ferrer and etc.
 

tex123

Professional
Felix is ranked 15th. Sinner is 16th and he's already won titles. You can compare him to 14 other guys above him.

I don't know why you keep reiterating that millions of people wanting to be a pro. That's not the point. There would be millions wanting to go to Harvard. That does not mean everyone who went to harvard are equal. Some would be classed as mediocre when compared to best of the best. You are not comparing them with rest of the world who did not go to Harvard.

People say that nextgen are weaklings, mugs, midgets etc. I don't see you or anyone defending them. But mediocre is a term you take issue with :rolleyes: . I call spade a spade. No sugarcoating. Sorry.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
You can't say a 21 years old with a 1/4 and a 1/2 final on GS already a mediocre player - period.
Countless people on TTW didn't get that memo since dozens call Fed an "untalented mug" every single day here. He won all his slams against mugs and POS players and is a non-entity in tennis. So if Roger Federer gets dissed to that ludicrous extent, you can bet someone like Felix will be pilloried.
 

lordlosh

Semi-Pro
Countless people on TTW didn't get that memo since dozens call Fed an "untalented mug" every single day here. He won all his slams against mugs and POS players and is a non-entity in tennis. So if Roger Federer gets dissed to that ludicrous extent, you can bet someone like Felix will be pilloried.
Federer for me in terms of pure talent and game stands alone. But i think he made countless errors through the year that f****** him. Starting from his coaching staffs, as well as allowing Nadal to pretty much bullying him, and he pretty much do nothing about his antics with all the med. timeout he was taken in his matches, and most importantly the time between the serve, which play HUGE role in Nadal game.
After 2007 he decide to change Tony Roche for "chasing" to change his game and approach to chase RG, a title which would absolutely would have come to him anyway at some point. This was the worst decision he made. Not particularly that he changed Tony Roche, but with who he changed him ....
While both Nadal and DJoko constantly improve his game, Federer hit his prime 2003-2007, and then his game start declining big time. He was never the same after this year.
In 2017 he was rejuvenated, and he manage to do changes to his game that do wonders, and was mentally on a different level, but it was too little.
He also wasted so many years with pretty much do the exact same thing, and expecting different result, which was an absolutely a joke, and i blame him and his team for that.
From 2010 to 2017 he should have changed his approach big time, not laying on old stuffs. If you see something is not working through the year, don't expect that magically will start working next one. Just change, change, change, till it works.
Still to this day i can't get why in the blue hell he was keeping Severin Luthi for so so long, where there was obviously huge things lacking in his game.
Also Federer 2003-2007 was mentally on a different level, compare to his later years. And his words are that he was working with sports psychologist early on his career, and that helped him, but he feel that he doesn't needed later on, really?
Didn't he decide to think for a minute at some stage, that he maybe need one again ????
Mistake, after mistake, and so many matches where he shouldn't have lost. He should've 25 GS title by now and retired calmly.
He is also the only 1 of the big 3 where you can say he have so much big matches where he shouldn't have lost.
I don't remember such for Nadal and Djokovic, where you could 100% say he should have won that match period.
Saying all that, someone may see it as a hate towards Federer, but it's not. I'm yet to see such perfection that he showed during 2004-2007 period. Absolutely clean game, without any gamesmanship and b.c. going to disrupt opponent rhythm/momentum and so. All play to his game.

But now he had to accept it(obviously having hard time doing it), that Djoko is the clear Goat and it's by far !!! And it's all Federer fault, due to 2019 Wimby final.
 
Top