Ferrara speaks: “I didn’t give anything to the physiotherapist and I warned him of the risks, for no reason should he come into contact with Jannik”
- Thread starter Winner Sinner
- Start date
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
He explained this in the interview.
During the various procedural stages that ultimately led to the 3-month disqualification after a plea bargain between the parties, it was inappropriate to make public statements about the specific case.
norcal
Legend
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
The quicker Naldi's hand healed, the quicker he could get back to his unimpeded role as physio.
Naldi could be like the guy who goes to work ill as he can't afford the time off.
The sensible option was to hire a temporary physio. Sinner is responsible for this not happening.
Naldi could be like the guy who goes to work ill as he can't afford the time off.
The sensible option was to hire a temporary physio. Sinner is responsible for this not happening.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
What does Aneke Rune have to do with Jannik Sinner's Clostebol affair? Just over a month ago, Holger Rune's mother had already come out in defense of the number one in the doping case involving him, which ended with a three-month ban following an agreement between the player and Wada. "If you take a little information on Clostebol, you will see how frighteningly easy it is to transfer it from person to person if used by third parties," the woman had said at the time, who furiously intervened on social media on the issue.
Sinner case: what Aneke Rune wrote
On the social network "X", a user reported alleged statements by Aneke Rune: "How useful is it that the ban comes right in the middle of two Slams? There was definitely an agreement with Wada. I think my son Holger was robbed of the Australian Open this year." Holger's mother immediately denied the claim: "Stop constantly spreading false information!"
Sinner case: what Aneke Rune wrote
On the social network "X", a user reported alleged statements by Aneke Rune: "How useful is it that the ban comes right in the middle of two Slams? There was definitely an agreement with Wada. I think my son Holger was robbed of the Australian Open this year." Holger's mother immediately denied the claim: "Stop constantly spreading false information!"
robyrolfo
Hall of Fame
How does the story sound far fetched? You could say the exact opposite, as his head of anti-doping would know about Clostebol, so using it to dope Sinner would be a ridiculous decision.
The story actually seems like the most likely scenario, and we all know about Occam's razor.
What is bogus about it? You think it is more likely that Sinner risked everything for some non-existing doping benefit?
This is too logical. People will not accept it!
AndrewUtz
Professional
you're acting like i’m saying they used clostebol to intentionally dope him. i’m not. what i’ve been saying from the start is that the story they gave sounds absurd. it involves a banned steroid being prescribed to someone working directly with a top player who actively massages him, the pharmacist and anti doping head supposedly warning him not to come into contact with the player, and then... no follow-up, no oversight, and somehow it still ends up in Sinner’s system. if you don’t think that sounds ridiculous, i don’t know what to tell you.
and bringing up occam’s razor here doesn’t help your case. the simplest explanation isn’t “this chain of professionals all just happened to mess up massively and nobody noticed.” the simplest explanation is that the story was crafted to minimize damage once the positive test came back. whether it’s true or not is a separate question. i’ve already said it could be true. but pretending it’s the most logical and clean version of events just because it came from official sources is naive.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
At the ITIA hearing, Naldi claimed he received no warnings about the spray and as the tube was out of its packaging he knew nothing about its contents.
Needless to say, his story is incompatible with Ferrara's. Given the two key witnesses disagree precisely why their story was generally accepted is a mystery.
Needless to say, his story is incompatible with Ferrara's. Given the two key witnesses disagree precisely why their story was generally accepted is a mystery.
You clearly continue to have troubles with the facts.
On the ITIA pdf, page 23, point 107, Naldi clearly says he doesn't remember being given a warning. That is entirely different than claiming he recieved no warning and is aligned with what Fererra said "Naldi didn’t deny having been informed, but he said he didn’t remember."
I wrote about the misapplication of Occam's Razor here a couple of months ago, so I'll just repost that comment:
1. Occam's Razor is a logical tool intended to facilitate comparisons between competing hypotheses that are equally well-grounded in the evidence, i.e., that equally fit the established facts. Occam's Razor is not a device for rejecting evidence in favor of unsupported speculation. Suppose I were to say, "I was late for the appointment because I had to swerve to avoid a deer on the road, and then I got a flat tire, and when I discovered that I had no spare, I had to call the auto club -- here, check my phone records -- and it took a long time for them to arrive." If you then said, "That's too complicated. I think you were just asleep, and Occam's Razor says I am right!" that would be an improper invocation of the tool. Just sophistry. Evidence, when it exists, always controls.
2. The notion that Sinner's being an intentional "doper" is somehow a simpler explanation for Sinner's exposure than the one he provided is itself fallacious. A deliberate doping program by a monitored athlete would entail all kinds of complications and stratagems relating to procurement of the drugs, administration of the drugs, recruitment of helpers, avoiding detection and otherwise covering everything up, etc. This would be a large web of ongoing illicit activity, not some "simple" fact that can be plugged into a misunderstood logical formula.
AndrewUtz
Professional
cool story but you’re coming at me like i claimed he definitely doped or that occam's razor proves it. i didn’t say either of those things.
i said the official story sounds absurd, and it does. a banned steroid gets prescribed by someone who knows the rules, to a guy working directly with a top athlete, no one follows up, and somehow it ends up in the athlete’s system. that’s not some airtight explanation. that’s a mess. saying it could still not be true isn’t speculation, it’s just acknowledging how ridiculous the story sounds on its face.
and no, no one said intentional doping is simpler. that’s not my argument. i’m not even pushing an alternative explanation. i’m just saying the one they gave shouldn’t be treated like some flawless account just because it came from official sources. it’s wild how defensive people get at the idea that you can believe something might be true and still recognize how goofy it sounds.
Last edited:
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Point 38 states there is a discrepancy between the witnesses about whether a warning was given.
In the analysis given of the evidence, which is what you are quoting from in point 107, the hearing accepted Ferrari's evidence and dismissed Naldi's.
This means that they accepted Ferrara's claim that Naldi was informed so whether he was and couldn't remember is an interpretation the hearing discounted completely.
In the analysis given of the evidence, which is what you are quoting from in point 107, the hearing accepted Ferrari's evidence and dismissed Naldi's.
This means that they accepted Ferrara's claim that Naldi was informed so whether he was and couldn't remember is an interpretation the hearing discounted completely.
Cool, you sovled your mystery.
Although, if you read 107 carefully, they didn't 'dismiss' Naldi's statement, in fact, they ackowledged that he might have been jetlagged etc etc ("as suggested by the parties").
As a result, your statement is factually wrong. He stated he 'remembered' no warning but all parties agreed that he may have been jetlagged etc:
"whereas Mr Naldi stated whilst being cross-examined that he could not remember any such warning being given".
"In addition, as it was suggested by the Parties, Mr Naldi's appreciation of what Mr Fererra said to him about the Spray, may have been adversely affected by the fact that he arrived later than the others, may have been jetegged, and was under some family pressure at that time".
As always, details matter.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Nope. They accepted Ferrara's evidence and discounted Naldi's evidence essentially on the basis that if he can't remember why accept him over Ferrara.
The details suggest Naldi may have some plausible excuses for his behaviour and forgetfulness, but the fact is that Ferrara's evidence was believed by the hearing.
Naldi used the spray and treated Sinner while using it in contravention of what Ferrara instructed. This is exactly what the hearing found and what Ferrari now claims in an interview.
This leaves open the question as to why Ferrara did not better supervise Naldi nor why he did not advise Sinner as to the situation and the problems that could arise due to Naldi's cut.
But all this opens up a new can of worms.
The details suggest Naldi may have some plausible excuses for his behaviour and forgetfulness, but the fact is that Ferrara's evidence was believed by the hearing.
Naldi used the spray and treated Sinner while using it in contravention of what Ferrara instructed. This is exactly what the hearing found and what Ferrari now claims in an interview.
This leaves open the question as to why Ferrara did not better supervise Naldi nor why he did not advise Sinner as to the situation and the problems that could arise due to Naldi's cut.
But all this opens up a new can of worms.
Last edited:
I've shown you the relevant pieces of text, I can't make you understand it. All I can suggest is to read it with a less biased mind.
In any case, your statement:
"At the ITIA hearing, Naldi claimed he received no warnings"
is indeed factually wrong.
bitcoinoperated
Hall of Fame
LMAOOOOO
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Naldi actually told Sinner his hand was cut and in response to Sinner's query he stated he was taking nothing for it.
Despite the fact that he subsequently did take something for it, and despite being warned, he did not alert Sinner to the changed situation.
Despite the fact that he subsequently did take something for it, and despite being warned, he did not alert Sinner to the changed situation.
Not really relevant to the point I made, but ok.
Anyway, good that you picked up on the fact that Sinner did in fact enquire if Naldi was taking something for his injury, so he in fact did his due dillegence (as indeed concluded by the ITIA tribunal).
(full disclosure: at the time of Sinner's of inquery, he indeed was not yet using the spray. He later obviously did, but never informed Sinner).
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
Sinner quite implausibly did not further ask about the injury and its treatment even though it quite clearly persisted throughout the time he was being treated.
The idiot should have immediately hired a substitute physio. The fact that he did not means he did not adequately manage his agents and that makes him responsible.
The idiot should have immediately hired a substitute physio. The fact that he did not means he did not adequately manage his agents and that makes him responsible.
You really should try to deal with whatever emotional baggage you have on this. It's not pretty. Can't be healthy.
BallisticMissileFonseca
Semi-Pro
Ferrara gave Sinner a Shen Gong Wu. Like Djokovic's Tutankhamun amulets, his enhancement is of a magical nature.
Bartelby
Bionic Poster
So you are confessing to be a Sinner apologist despite all the evidence piling up against him.
Sinner voluntarily submitted to treatment from someone with an open wound that he only inquired into once.
Sinner voluntarily submitted to treatment from someone with an open wound that he only inquired into once.
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Sinner has shown his true colors
Is that really him or just a doppelgänger
McGradey
Hall of Fame
Either that or scary-good AI. Can't be him lol
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
So you are saying that if Sinner provided hair samples, and they tested those, and nothing would suggest he Das micro dosing /doping then you would believe that it was a case of accidental exposure? Is that your position?
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
More or less, a hair sample would have been much more credible.
My sense is that clostebol was being used as a masking agent and there was more in his system that we will never know about.
AndrewUtz
Professional
of course, a public third party hair test would put all of this to bed once and for all! sinner should it! I would if I were him! He truly has nothing to lose!
roysid
Legend
I am liking Aneke Rune more
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Heil Holger's Hands are not clean in this doping problem
ok, good to know that you would be so reasonable to accept negative results of hair samples as a proof of 'he was not doping intentionally'.
Although, on a second thought, there are quite few posters here that are not as reasonable as you are. For example, here's a post by a certain poster going by the username @Rosstour - you may or may not know him
When responding to this post regarding Swiatek's casehe responded:
even though, as anyone following her case would know, she _did provide hair samples and those samples showed no pattern of intentional doping, not even in microdose amounts_
Perhaps it is not about the evidence then? But rather about 'I think he/she is guilty and I do not care about anything else?'
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
ok, good to know that you would be so reasonable to accept negative results of hair samples as a proof of 'he was not doping intentionally'.
Although, on a second thought, there are quite few posters here that are not as reasonable as you are. For example, here's a post by a certain poster going by the username @Rosstour - you may or may not know him
he responded:
even though, as anyone following her case would know, she _did provide hair samples and those samples showed no pattern of intentional doping, not even in microdose amounts_
Perhaps it is not about the evidence then? But rather about 'I think he/she is guilty and I do not care about anything else?'
Swiatek's form since coming back is pretty damning though.
I don't know as much about her case but to me the inescapable conclusion is that it's very very difficult if not impossible to become a truly elite player without pharmaceuticals, and it's become so rampant that some of them are getting caught, even in a system that is designed to cloak the top players.
I think if we knew everything, we'd be shocked at how many players did them and for how long. But that's just me
It is time for Naldi to come up with his side of story
Gary Duane
Talk Tennis Guru
It's not just you. I have assumed for a very long time that what you just said is the truth. The truth? You can't handle the truth!
AndrewUtz
Professional
If we have learned one thing from cycling, it’s that if players CAN get away with it, they WILL. It’s time we stop looking at players like Sinner or others as a moral compass. Not saying he did do it, but saying that it would never be surprising to me if it came out that 75% of the top 100 were somehow doping.
Rosstour
Talk Tennis Guru
Go ahead
norcal
Legend
Witnessing so much Serena hate on here for decades I don't fault her for having a panic room. Back in the day there were overt racisist photoshops, etc - really crazy hateful stuff that went far beyond tennis. That is why celebs have panic rooms.
Not saying her panic room excuse is legit, but we don't know. Same with Djoker's 'bread on the stomach diagnosis' transforming him from having serious endurance issues to 'earth's mightiest warrior' practically overnight. Sounds sketchy but again no positive test so we don't know. Brooksby missed three tests but was finally exonerated (I think?) partially due to being on the autism spectrum. So many players with cirucumstanses that seem suspicious but unless they test positive we'll never know.
We do know Sinner, Iga, Halep, etc tested positive so they are fair game, the rest seems to me to be sour grapes aimed at players people don't like (while ignorning their own fav's sus behavior).
Last edited:
AndrewUtz
Professional
sinner better have Naldi sign an NDA before he blows the top off this.
beltsman
G.O.A.T.
The fact that he's talking indicates to me that this is the official narrative mandated by Sinner. Otherwise, why let anyone talk?
AndrewUtz
Professional
sinner knew he had an open cut on his hand and knowingly and willingly allowed naldi to rub his open cut on his psoriasis lesion covered back. would you ever allow anyone to do this to you?
Similar threads
