FH shoulder turn acceleration ends around contact

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I was looking at Federer and Wawrinka FH video, and noticed their shoulder turns into their FHs accelerate right to about contact, and then seem to pause, and then momentum will take the shoulders around more. My take is this is the ultimate in extension and swinging towards their target. My guess is most amateurs shoulders swing through contact.

Watch the shoulder lines:

@00:37 -00:39

@00:05 - 00:007
 
this is a similar concept to my thread of 'do NOT accelerate thru the ball'.... before impact you want to give space for the racket to release.
 
this is a similar concept to my thread of 'do NOT accelerate thru the ball'.... before impact you want to give space for the racket to release.

Yep ... I was thinking of your thread/observation when I typed it. I put the racquet away until spring ( final TE healing ) ... so I haven't been able to try your technique.

I think this observation is about how the shoulder can deliver max momentum to the arm. The arm whips from shoulder ... the arm whips from elbow with bent elbow swings ... the racquet whips from hand on flip.

I think the arm is a major adder to rha/rhs ... not a noodle. My guess is it can add the most when shoulder turn doesn't turn through contact. My guess anyway.

Did you see this article I posted in other thread. Not sure if it's accurate, and obviously major variations in different FHs ... but states 75% of rhs comes from arm, and only 25% from shoulder.

"Forward swing to impact consists of trunk rotation initiating racket movement and is responsible for the forward movement of the hitting arm. Shoulder speed has been shown to contribute 25% of racket speed. The rotation of upper arm, forearm, and hand, account for the remaining 75% of racket speed at impact. Research indicates that the segmental contributions are influenced by grip type and ball level. Forward movement of the upper arm is a key feature of forehand mechanics, producing 30% of the racket speed. The hand plays an integral role in generating racket speed. The follow-through is across the line of the body and a recovery step brings the player into the ready position."

http://longislandtennismagazine.com/article386/biomechanics-tennis-fundamentals
 
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Did you see this article I posted in other thread. Not sure if it's accurate, and obviously major variations in different FHs ... but states 75% of rhs comes from arm, and only 25% from shoulder.

it makes sense... the hand speed is about 40% of the serve... and I guess close to that for the fh..

it's also a very efficient way to play for us amateurs who don't have the physique of the pros... working all them big muscle groups on every shot is tiring...

you can hang around 4.5 pretty well if you just have a fast hand.
 
Did you see this article I posted in other thread. Not sure if it's accurate, and obviously major variations in different FHs ... but states 75% of rhs comes from arm, and only 25% from shoulder.
As you noticed earlier, around contact trunk rotation slows down significantly. Here's the trap of "semi-scientific" approach. One can jump to a conclusion that torso rotation is three times less significant to produce RHS than swinging the arm. Meanwhile quite a bit of arm speed is created by earlier torso rotation, as well as prestretch in the shoulder. What happens around contact is moslty result of preceeding action.
 
As you noticed earlier, around contact trunk rotation slows down significantly. Here's the trap of "semi-scientific" approach. One can jump to a conclusion that torso rotation is three times less significant to produce RHS than swinging the arm. Meanwhile quite a bit of arm speed is created by earlier torso rotation, as well as prestretch in the shoulder. What happens around contact is moslty result of preceeding action.

You calling that USPTA Sports Science Specialist "semi-scientific"? He looks pretty big. :)

"As you noticed earlier, around contact trunk rotation slows down significantly."

Observation about end of shoulder turn at contact.

"What happens around contact is moslty result of preceeding action."

I think the "mostly arm" is accurate, but who knows about 75%. You can hit an all arm swing ... but you can't hit an all core/shoulder swing by just whipping arms. I went through all these swing thoughts converting to 2hbh. You can't hit a 2hbh by just holding your arms out in the unit turn ... you have to hit with the trailing arm/hand ... a lot.
 
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You calling that USPTA Sports Science Specialist "semi-scientific"? He looks pretty big. :)
I call the conclusion quoted to be (possibly) quite precise about shoulder speed and arm speed around contact, together transitioning into racquet speed (but where's racquet rotation from lag into contact here?), but as precise it may be, so useless it is to describe by what means racquet head speed is created. "Arm moving faster than shoulder" around contact is not equal to "muscles supporting arm movement against shoulder/torso produce 75% of the swing speed". That's just what I wanted to point out; if no one got into this trap, well, sorry for being paranoid and not believing so much in fellow rec players. I call semi-scientific picking figures from research and basing bad logic upon those, might this be done by a journalist or a reader.
 
yes torso rotation decelerates before contact. in golf there is a concept called peak time. you want peak trunk rotation speed like after 60-70% of the swing time (top of backswing to impact) after that the torso decelerates and energy transfers to the arms.

i dont think rotation stops though, in a paper about the baseball swing the shoulder rotation velocity at contact was like 60% of max rotation speed or so.
 
I call the conclusion quoted to be (possibly) quite precise about shoulder speed and arm speed around contact, together transitioning into racquet speed (but where's racquet rotation from lag into contact here?), but as precise it may be, so useless it is to describe by what means racquet head speed is created. "Arm moving faster than shoulder" around contact is not equal to "muscles supporting arm movement against shoulder/torso produce 75% of the swing speed". That's just what I wanted to point out; if no one got into this trap, well, sorry for being paranoid and not believing so much in fellow rec players. I call semi-scientific picking figures from research and basing bad logic upon those, might this be done by a journalist or a reader.

I put what I thought I was seeing with the shoulder turn stopping/pausing here in tips to see if others saw this ... or if this was actually a thing. That was the main point. A secondary point after initial post was about how the arm is probably doing a lot more than just being whipped by core / shoulder k-chain ... particularly the rock and roll flipping drum video Bender posted.

For the record, you can't find a bigger believer in the pace that comes from full shoulder turn than me. By the time I'm swinging my arm forward it feels relaxed and pretty effortless. That said ... all you have to do is watch any pro arm movement right when it starts forward and it is obvious it's not a whip. It stiffens up enough so the upper arm is carrying the pace from the shoulder forward.

BTW ... since posting this ... I read the double pendulum article I linked in my other FH thread:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ble-pendulums-and-old-style-slingshot.577856/

Turns out it is actually a known scientific thing ... first arm of a double pendulum slows down to provide maximum speed to second arm. The shoulder stopping/pausing is exactly what it has to do to deliver max pace to arm. I watched some Djokovic FH video where his shoulder stopped accelerating quite a bit before contact ... it was obvious.

I pick up tips here at TT ... this was one for sure. When I watch my FH on video ... I see opportunity to do more pronounced deceleration than I currently do.
 
yes torso rotation decelerates before contact. in golf there is a concept called peak time. you want peak trunk rotation speed like after 60-70% of the swing time (top of backswing to impact) after that the torso decelerates and energy transfers to the arms.

i dont think rotation stops though, in a paper about the baseball swing the shoulder rotation velocity at contact was like 60% of max rotation speed or so.

In golf, I think this happens near bottom of swing when late release of the club happens.

Check Wawrinka 00:20 - 00:22 below ... looks like brief stop/pause ... and then resumption of more shoulder turn, or very close to stop at a minimum. Watch his shoulder line at impact. I guess splitting hairs ... the big tip is to check your stroke for torso/shoulder deceleration before impact ... don't power shoulder turn through contact.

 
You calling that USPTA Sports Science Specialist "semi-scientific"? He looks pretty big. :)

"As you noticed earlier, around contact trunk rotation slows down significantly." (edit) .............................

Well, I'll give a somewhat contrary view to Branislav, if only to stimulate conversation: Under the "Serve" heading in the article you linked the author says "The rotations of the upper arm, forearm and hand account for the remaining 80 percent of racket speed. Hand and wrist flexion (snap) are the last movements and produce 30% of the total racket speed. Therefore the wrist action is an extremely important aspect of service mechanics."

That statement simply isn't true. Hand and wrist "snap" do no such thing. This has been studied to death. I tend to agree with Lansdorp, that the USPTA certification tells you little. You have to look further. It doesn't give you a bye as to evaluating statements.

The first part of the quote, though, lets us know what he means by "The rotations of the upper arm, forearm, and hand account for the remaining 80 percent...." In the forehand, not just the serve, since he uses exactly the same wording for both: It means he is referring to the rotation of the upper arm and forearm (and for Shroud I will say it...) ISR and wrist ulnar deviation up into the hit. I think the 80% number can't be backed up either for the serve or the forehand. The ITF, in the relevant handbook on the forearm, cites 40%, sourcing their numbers from Eliot and Reid, much more heavily evaluated and affirmed sources than Branislav Grujic, who I assume is otherwise a good, well-informed, and devoted coach.

I'll risk a summary answer to your observation, actual point, a good one in my view, that out into contact the shoulder rotation slows briefly. Yes. You have to work for that slowing, don't you? Two things, at least: You have no doubt observed that as most very good players begin their extension out to the ball they lift their off arm, which had been swinging to the left, then was quickly pulled in for torso acceleration, then suddenly lifted. The lift slows the arm and torso, and sends a little momentum to the hitting arm. The styles vary greatly, as different as Lendl and Federer, but they (almost) all get to that off arm lift just as they extend and produce (here goes, Shroud) ISR into contact. ISR also takes from, redirects for a moment, the hitting shoulder, slows it momentarily. Moments after contact the momentum of the body, arm, shoulders....overcomes the effect of the extension and off-arm lift, and the shoulders rotate again, however briefly. They rotate less after contact if you do, like Fed, keep your head still and facing slightly behind the contact point.

And whoever said last year that my comments approach the length of a Robert Ludlum novel, well, they....may have had a point. Laugh. But 20 pages? Not this time, Shroud.
 
Well, I'll give a somewhat contrary view to Branislav, if only to stimulate conversation: Under the "Serve" heading in the article you linked the author says "The rotations of the upper arm, forearm and hand account for the remaining 80 percent of racket speed. Hand and wrist flexion (snap) are the last movements and produce 30% of the total racket speed. Therefore the wrist action is an extremely important aspect of service mechanics."

That statement simply isn't true. Hand and wrist "snap" do no such thing. This has been studied to death. I tend to agree with Lansdorp, that the USPTA certification tells you little. You have to look further. It doesn't give you a bye as to evaluating statements.

The first part of the quote, though, lets us know what he means by "The rotations of the upper arm, forearm, and hand account for the remaining 80 percent...." In the forehand, not just the serve, since he uses exactly the same wording for both: It means he is referring to the rotation of the upper arm and forearm (and for Shroud I will say it...) ISR and wrist ulnar deviation up into the hit. I think the 80% number can't be backed up either for the serve or the forehand. The ITF, in the relevant handbook on the forearm, cites 40%, sourcing their numbers from Eliot and Reid, much more heavily evaluated and affirmed sources than Branislav Grujic, who I assume is otherwise a good, well-informed, and devoted coach.

I'll risk a summary answer to your observation, actual point, a good one in my view, that out into contact the shoulder rotation slows briefly. Yes. You have to work for that slowing, don't you? Two things, at least: You have no doubt observed that as most very good players begin their extension out to the ball they lift their off arm, which had been swinging to the left, then was quickly pulled in for torso acceleration, then suddenly lifted. The lift slows the arm and torso, and sends a little momentum to the hitting arm. The styles vary greatly, as different as Lendl and Federer, but they (almost) all get to that off arm lift just as they extend and produce (here goes, Shroud) ISR into contact. ISR also takes from, redirects for a moment, the hitting shoulder, slows it momentarily. Moments after contact the momentum of the body, arm, shoulders....overcomes the effect of the extension and off-arm lift, and the shoulders rotate again, however briefly. They rotate less after contact if you do, like Fed, keep your head still and facing slightly behind the contact point.

And whoever said last year that my comments approach the length of a Robert Ludlum novel, well, they....may have had a point. Laugh. But 20 pages? Not this time, Shroud.

"if only to stimulate conversation"

Like your style ... and that is obviously what my main goal is with my FH threads. If I learn something, or someone else does ... that is a bonus.

My main point with the article is simple ... "the arm does quite a bit" in all FHs ... ATP w/flip included. "Quite a bit" is one of those highly technical terms. :)

No ... I don't know about the off arm thing. All I ever think about with it is get it out of the way so I can see and hit the ball. I watched the Wawrinka video above, and some Fed ... not seeing it. If you can point to it with Wawrinka above ... or someone else I might learn even more ... more bonus.

Can you give me a link to your Shrould ISR dissertation. You can't beat Bender, you can only tie him ... he reached the TT messageboard post limit.
 
Bye, do you have access to the tennisplayerdotnet videos?

Bender reached the TT messageboard post limit? Only once? Ha!

The Shroud thing wasn't actually one twenty-pager, but rather a series of one pagers in a long conversation.

I agree the hitting arm does, if I may slide into overtly technical terminology, a helluvalot. And the other arm does, too.

I'll get back to you later, probably tonight, with some cite to a clip that shows the left arm action I'm referring to.
 
Bye, do you have access to the tennisplayerdotnet videos?

Bender reached the TT messageboard post limit? Only once? Ha!

The Shroud thing wasn't actually one twenty-pager, but rather a series of one pagers in a long conversation.

I agree the hitting arm does, if I may slide into overtly technical terminology, a helluvalot. And the other arm does, too.

I'll get back to you later, probably tonight, with some cite to a clip that shows the left arm action I'm referring to.

No ... no access to tennisplayerdotnet.

I have already started to steal from you ... "helluvalot" just got added.

"I'll get back to you later, probably tonight, with some cite to a clip that shows the left arm action I'm referring to."

Thanks ... I need to hear what my other arm has suppose to have been doing, because right now it just gets out of the way and watches.

Perhaps a discussion of "wrist things" also (oops ... there went this thread). Actually ... Bender pointed out that "wrist things" change a bit between grips ... E vs W. I'm thinking the "wrist things" change more per neutral wrist vs laid back wrist. To me, I can't move my wrist radial/ulnar unless I have a neutral wrist ... i..e hand aligned with forearm. And when you do that wrist movement, it is indeed a wrist movement because you can do that with no ESR/Supination, ISR/pronation (we need an abbreviation or acronym for this .... ESIP). But as soon as I lay my wrist back, the range of that radial/ulnar movement is so minimal, it surely not much of an element in the FH swing. Now ... when you lay your wrist back ... now we are talking ESIP(WW) ... and not radial\ulnar. I have come to the conclusion (I hear Limpin saying out loud ... FINALLY YOU STUPID SOB) that WW is not a wrist movement at all. It's just the laid back hand along for the ride with the ESIP.

So if that holds up ... then would that mean in the forward swing when the wrist lays back ... that is more ESIP ... and when you make impact and follow through it is more ulnar? A reverse ESIP(WW) at the start, and a ulnar(WW) follow through. HAHAHA ... that will bring the pack of wolves to a location near me ... soon to be voted off the island. I can't remember Bender's comment about different grips effecting the flexion release (laid back wrist -> more neutral by contact) ... but I'm thinking grips don't change that ... all of them need that flexion release.
 
Bye, from 10:00 onward in this mixed-clips Fed video...

for example at 10:08, you'll see that just into the hit Fed lifts his off arm forearm just a bit. It's practice, he's coasting. If you have any match tapes you can see him lift it in earnest. (Better yet, you should try it racquet in hand.) Players who were shamelessly aggressive with their off-arm swing, pull-in, and then forearm lift are Sharapova, James Blake, and in his own way, Lendl. Lendl would do the off-arm pull in by looping his fairly straight arm down in toward his leg (to grab the arm's momentum) and then lift the arm rightward and up. Try it sometime. It actually works very smoothly.

I think JY went over the question of how much a particular grip affects how much people need to lag their wrist. I have a different view because I have a more limited experience. If you, Bye, get ready for the next hit to come over the way Fed does, and if you therefore turn to hit a forehand the way he does (just meaning unit turn, racquet head high, grip lower, but racquet generally fairly vertical, then you, like Fed, will have your wrist bent back already a good bit. (Look at the video. You have fifty forehands to examine!!)

So you, like Fed, have turned back, two hands on the racquet (left hand high, right hand low), racquet quite vertical, feet in semi-open stance and...

...and you let go with the off-arm hand, which begins to swing toward the net. You don't rotate your torso yet. Your hitting hand moves a bit farther back toward but a bit out from your side. (To try it out just actually copy Fed motions while you watch the slo mo. None of his motions are excess or otional.) The moment of launch arrives.

Simultaneously you do a bunch of things (but I'm only going over them to point out how naturally you'll end up with rotation of the racquet back and lower, call it a flip if you want). Your off arm starts to swing more vigorously leftward,your hitting hand takes the grip lower (how far depends on the spin you want to hit), and then...

...you simultaneously pull your off-arm elbow inward (to shorten the lever arm forcing momentum into your torso), extend your lets up (to force your torso to rotate around to realign with your hips, (which physiology dictates your torso will do), and (still simultaneously, laugh) JUST as your torso starts rotatating because of the leg launch and off-arm pull-in and hip/core muscle flexion.....just then

...you feel your torso is forcing your shoulder and therefore upper hitting arm to start around. So you relax your shoulder, allow (or dammit force) your upper hitting arm to rotate clockwise in the shoulder joint. This rotation will allow your racquet to go back while your torso is rotating forward. Inertia and a very relaxed shoulder/arm will let the racquet lag behind for an instant. It might even look to you like it flipped back, although it is really everything else rotating forward. laugh. So your rotating forward, your racquet is in lag because your upper arm is still in that rotated back position (yes, yes, ESR). Since the racquet head is lagging back you're stuck with the butt cap leading the way forward in a natural sort of assumed leadership. The tension, the power, the motive force...is still the rotating UB, to which the shoulder and arm are permanently attached. So about half way to facing the net your shoulder/upper arm (already having lots of momentum from the UB pulling it along) becomes able to add to the rotation speed by itself flexing, adding some forward swing and some rise of the forearm and racquet.

...at that instant you look like all the other players in the videos. Your off-arm forearm is vaguely pointing forward, your racquet is pointing backward, you're 50% through rotating forward. (If you don't know this natural alignment you just need to look for some good video that captures the player mid-forehand from above. hint:Yandell.)

At that moment you lift the off-arm forehand while (for arm health) rolling the forearm counterclockwise. Simultaneously you intentionally extend the hitting hand forward out toward contact even as the hand/arm has to start going a bit leftward. And (more simultaneous) as your racquet head rises toward the ball powered by everything you've done, you.......unwind that hitting arm that you rolled back clockwise at the start...by using shoulder muscles to forcefully roll the upper arm in the shoulder socket so that you get ISR, yes I said it ISR, call it "partly pronation" (PP) if you wish, up into contact. That rolling into ISR causes further extension out into the ball, causes racquet head rise (uh, spin production), and the extension-plus-ISR may be stared at and called WW) (If you max extension but little ISR you'll hit flat, little WW. If you max ISR and happened to take contact sufficiently in front, you get major WW appearance but stunted extension. Etc.

So in brief, laugh, if you take it back like Fed and initiate like him, there is no flipping to do. The rolling of the upper arm back as the torso starts forward naturally keeps the wrist back (as it was during unit turn), takes the racquet head down, and then looseness leaves that arrangement in place as you max rotation forward. About the grips making a difference: If you hold semi-western or even western...nothing is dfferent than with eastern, except that the racquet is already a bit back and down sooner. If you take eastern, copy Fed precisely, then you still don't have to think about your wrist. Just keep the bend you had taken and held going into the unit turn, and keep the wrist back as your shoulder goes into ESR....and everything will be good.

Or you could just really carefully in slow motion copy every twist and turn Fed makes in the slo mo you are watching repeatedly, with the same synchronization of parts, and you wouldn't have to read much. It sounds so simple, and it is. Well, my hats off to Bender. My fingers are tired.

Edit: Another good example of the off-arm forearm lift into the moment of the hit is Sampras. He majors in the lift. Find a slo mo on youtube and check it out. Problem: I have hundreds of slow motion clips of major players on my laptop...but I can't distribute them. In fact I don't think I know how to post them with this writing. Hmmmm.
 
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Bye, from 10:00 onward in this mixed-clips Fed video...

for example at 10:08, you'll see that just into the hit Fed lifts his off arm forearm just a bit. It's practice, he's coasting. If you have any match tapes you can see him lift it in earnest. (Better yet, you should try it racquet in hand.) Players who were shamelessly aggressive with their off-arm swing, pull-in, and then forearm lift are Sharapova, James Blake, and in his own way, Lendl. Lendl would do the off-arm pull in by looping his fairly straight arm down in toward his leg (to grab the arm's momentum) and then lift the arm rightward and up. Try it sometime. It actually works very smoothly.

I think JY went over the question of how much a particular grip affects how much people need to lag their wrist. I have a different view because I have a more limited experience. If you, Bye, get ready for the next hit to come over the way Fed does, and if you therefore turn to hit a forehand the way he does (just meaning unit turn, racquet head high, grip lower, but racquet generally fairly vertical, then you, like Fed, will have your wrist bent back already a good bit. (Look at the video. You have fifty forehands to examine!!)

So you, like Fed, have turned back, two hands on the racquet (left hand high, right hand low), racquet quite vertical, feet in semi-open stance and...

...and you let go with the off-arm hand, which begins to swing toward the net. You don't rotate your torso yet. Your hitting hand moves a bit farther back toward but a bit out from your side. (To try it out just actually copy Fed motions while you watch the slo mo. None of his motions are excess or otional.) The moment of launch arrives.

Simultaneously you do a bunch of things (but I'm only going over them to point out how naturally you'll end up with rotation of the racquet back and lower, call it a flip if you want). Your off arm starts to swing more vigorously leftward,your hitting hand takes the grip lower (how far depends on the spin you want to hit), and then...

...you simultaneously pull your off-arm elbow inward (to shorten the lever arm forcing momentum into your torso), extend your lets up (to force your torso to rotate around to realign with your hips, (which physiology dictates your torso will do), and (still simultaneously, laugh) JUST as your torso starts rotatating because of the leg launch and off-arm pull-in and hip/core muscle flexion.....just then

...you feel your torso is forcing your shoulder and therefore upper hitting arm to start around. So you relax your shoulder, allow (or dammit force) your upper hitting arm to rotate clockwise in the shoulder joint. This rotation will allow your racquet to go back while your torso is rotating forward. Inertia and a very relaxed shoulder/arm will let the racquet lag behind for an instant. It might even look to you like it flipped back, although it is really everything else rotating forward. laugh. So your rotating forward, your racquet is in lag because your upper arm is still in that rotated back position (yes, yes, ESR). Since the racquet head is lagging back you're stuck with the butt cap leading the way forward in a natural sort of assumed leadership. The tension, the power, the motive force...is still the rotating UB, to which the shoulder and arm are permanently attached. So about half way to facing the net your shoulder/upper arm (already having lots of momentum from the UB pulling it along) becomes able to add to the rotation speed by itself flexing, adding some forward swing and some rise of the forearm and racquet.

...at that instant you look like all the other players in the videos. Your off-arm forearm is vaguely pointing forward, your racquet is pointing backward, you're 50% through rotating forward. (If you don't know this natural alignment you just need to look for some good video that captures the player mid-forehand from above. hint:Yandell.)

At that moment you lift the off-arm forehand while (for arm health) rolling the forearm counterclockwise. Simultaneously you intentionally extend the hitting hand forward out toward contact even as the hand/arm has to start going a bit leftward. And (more simultaneous) as your racquet head rises toward the ball powered by everything you've done, you.......unwind that hitting arm that you rolled back clockwise at the start...by using shoulder muscles to forcefully roll the upper arm in the shoulder socket so that you get ISR, yes I said it ISR, call it "partly pronation" (PP) if you wish, up into contact. That rolling into ISR causes further extension out into the ball, causes racquet head rise (uh, spin production), and the extension-plus-ISR may be stared at and called WW) (If you max extension but little ISR you'll hit flat, little WW. If you max ISR and happened to take contact sufficiently in front, you get major WW appearance but stunted extension. Etc.

So in brief, laugh, if you take it back like Fed and initiate like him, there is no flipping to do. The rolling of the upper arm back as the torso starts forward naturally keeps the wrist back (as it was during unit turn), takes the racquet head down, and then looseness leaves that arrangement in place as you max rotation forward. About the grips making a difference: If you hold semi-western or even western...nothing is dfferent than with eastern, except that the racquet is already a bit back and down sooner. If you take eastern, copy Fed precisely, then you still don't have to think about your wrist. Just keep the bend you had taken and held going into the unit turn, and keep the wrist back as your shoulder goes into ESR....and everything will be good.

Or you could just really carefully in slow motion copy every twist and turn Fed makes in the slo mo you are watching repeatedly, with the same synchronization of parts, and you wouldn't have to read much. It sounds so simple, and it is. Well, my hats off to Bender. My fingers are tired.

Edit: Another good example of the off-arm forearm lift into the moment of the hit is Sampras. He majors in the lift. Find a slo mo on youtube and check it out. Problem: I have hundreds of slow motion clips of major players on my laptop...but I can't distribute them. In fact I don't think I know how to post them with this writing. Hmmmm.

Wow ... thanks. I will have to respond later ... after I have absorbed all of that. I did watch the video ... particularly at 10:08. I feel guilty as hell for what I saw (will look at it some more, and other players). What it looks like to me is his relaxed left arm and hand just carry to his chest when the left shoulder quits turning... i.e. momentum. I will keep watching ... sometimes I have to look at video multiple times to get it. Did you say you actually did this with your FH ... that's always the best confirmation.

Visit my FH pendulum thread later. Your nunchuks made another appearance. You have to see that little kid whipping those suckers.

Will respond more later.
 
this is a similar concept to my thread of 'do NOT accelerate thru the ball'.... before impact you want to give space for the racket to release.
Do you have a link to your concept? thanks

Bye Bye, this pause you mention is part of the accel "up and across" the ball. The shoulder is stopped, helping to accelerate this action.
 
Do you have a link to your concept? thanks

Bye Bye, this pause you mention is part of the accel "up and across" the ball. The shoulder is stopped, helping to accelerate this action.

Yes ... been reading up on my double pendulums. :) I get why the shoulder turn has to end it's acceleration to pass max acceleration to upper arm. I guess I don't see why that would be tied to "up and across". If I hit a total flat ball from waste height, I would expect the shoulder pause requirement for max upper arm handoff. ???
 
Yes ... been reading up on my double pendulums. :) I get why the shoulder turn has to end it's acceleration to pass max acceleration to upper arm. I guess I don't see why that would be tied to "up and across". If I hit a total flat ball from waist height, I would expect the shoulder pause requirement for max upper arm handoff. ???
It only leads to up and across if you have a great TS Fh. The amount of up and across will vary by how you intend to shape the shot.
 
Another long post that had to be cut to make room for reply ... Bender would approve

Sorry to take so long to respond. Bravo ... that post was poetry ... felt obligated to read it to music. I would have told you what I was after was just the ESR\ISR flip part ... but I would have truly missed out.

"So in brief, laugh, if you take it back like Fed and initiate like him, there is no flipping to do."

Your using the word "flip" as a verb ... I have been using it as a noun. I ran into that with the word "wrist movements". Isn't "there is no flipping to do" like "if a tree falls in the woods ...". :)

I basically understood most of Fed's FH early on when viewing ... except the part you reference with:

"allow (or dammit force) your upper hitting arm to rotate clockwise"

I think 2+ months of TT debate and pain has been about that RED part above.

Time for yet another video reference and definition of flip.... at least the one (flip) that has given me pain. The other flip is the one I do to Limpin's posts.

Flip: @00:13 to contact (good question... does flip end at contact or somewhere before)


Flip: @00:13 -> contact

So at 00:13, with his racquet extended in line with his arm, note the following:
1) neutral wrist, no laid back(extension), no ulnar, no reverse WW ... no sh*t
2) he has had that neutral wrist in his prep/loop all the way (at least in this FH stroke) to this position. I think you referenced him laying his hand/wrist back early ... if so, I'm politely contrarian you

Now run the video forward to 00:14:
1) my belief he did not get there with laid back wrist (extension) alone
2) he also reverse WW (ESR\supinated ... whatever ... clockwise arm stuff)
3) I think everyone with a relaxed wrist (E grip) would naturally (lay back wrist) from :00:13 to 00:14
4) I think almost nobody (E grip) would also ESR naturally from 00:13 - 00:14 ***
5) I think if you (E grip) only lay back wrist, and don't ESR ... weak tea flip ... butt cap not past line, unless you have one flexy wrist.
6) so I proudly ride with Geca on this one ... when teaching flip swing thoughts early to a student (or in my case myself) ... with a loud angry voice ... yell ... REVERSE WW sucker when you pull that butt cap forward. That loud angry part was me ... not Geca.
7) no matter how you get there ... max flip ... go check yourself on video to make sure ... you may just have a weak tea flip because you were hard-headed about the "automagically happens stuff".

*** I'm talking Fed's FH ... and more specifically his loop and racquet drop to this position (00:13) ... and his arm and hand movement forward from 00:13. As I have said before ... I do see how someone learning could drop the racquet from the loop like Thiem, and it almost has to reverse WW because he threw the damn racquet over his arm.

BTW ... I'm pretty good with my endpoint on this subject now ... whatever prep, combination of ESR, supination, ulnar gets you to max flip rh arc ... good to go. I am still fuzzy on ulnar vs reverse WW ... but just being selfish with my Eastern grip ... I won't ever be Ulnaring anyway ... so am am sleeping fine. Well ... I say that, but my wrist gets back to pretty neutral by contact... and I think that WW finish is ulnar at that point. But hey ... as long as it works. In the last ball machine session before putting it up for winter, I tried hitting with the wrist fully laid back at contact. OMG ... did not like that a bit. I also don't see the point... if your laid back wrist stays that way, didn't you just bypass the power of the Nunchuck double pendulum?

Contrarian view Stuff I'm prepared to be convinced I am wrong on (also anything above):

1) I watched Fed some more looking for the off-hand breakage ... but didn't see it. I went and watched Sharapova ... and immediately saw it ... and then decided that looked like a result of the stopping of momentum, and not a cause of the stopping of momentum. It looked like the crash test dummies ... just reacting to the abrupt stop. :)
2) seems like the entire point of the left arm\hand thing pointing to the right fence is to make sure you have a full shoulder turn ... whether your off hand was on the racquet or not wouldn't matter. i.e. Goffin
3) seems to me the off arm isn't doing anything other than getting out of the way ... I don't feel like you are pulling with the off arm, for example
4) I think the loop adds nothing to rha/rhs ... even the bigger loopier ones like Thiem. I think all the action happens from 00:13 above ... to contact. (actually think this one could be it's own thread).

Really don't want to Contrarian Mr. Curiosity ... but others are reading ... sometimes you have to throw chum in the water.

Great input ... thanks.
 
I don't see it, I see some slow down because the racquet impacts the ball but not anything else. Trying to do anything last minute around contact is a recipe for errors.
 
Last edited:
learning by feel may be easier.

if you shadow swing a normal speed forehand and make a swoosh sound, where is that sound the loudest? for most people who actively rotate and accelerate thru the ball, that loud point will be somewhere around the left chest, which is a lot of speed wasted after the ball would have been gone already.

same concept as my 'do NOT accelerate' thread.... the question is, how do you put the loudest part of the swoosh on the ball.... the answer is that 1-3 feet before impact (depending on individual swing style), you have to ease off the rotation/acceleration and let the racket release.

again.... ease-off means taking the foot off gas, it's not the same thing as deceleration, which means stepping on the brake.

once you feel the loose-slap impact, you will never go back to the old way (of accelerating thru the ball), which feels 'sticky' and power-lack.
 
I don't see it, I see some slow down because the racquet impacts the ball but not anything else. Trying to do anything last minute around contact is a recipe for errors.

Bit ... here is my takeaway on this. I don't think the big issue is whether or not the shoulder comes to a complete stop or not. The big question to me is if the shoulder turn is maximizing the delivery of acceleration to the upper arm. After reading about double pendulums physics in my other thread, I actually do believe the shoulder turn could not deliver maximum pace if it was still accelerating at contact. The first pendulum ALWAYS has to slow down at delivery to second pendulum for max handoff. [Note: we don't go fore maximum pace on every shot, and I have noticed on some strokes the pros shoulders do not pause] And I agree ... you really couldn't try and do this. I really want to try Geca's swing thought, but won't get to until Spring. But in my mind, the player isn't trying to slow the shoulder down near impact. I think it's kind of like the FH follow through ... the arm simply reaching it's point of extension where it has to take a turn [NYTA]. I can see having the swing thought of extending into contact ... and the result is the shoulder and forearm delivery forward, rather than across at impact. I watched my video of my FH after I saw this, and I can definitely see my shoulder turn continuing to go across at impact, rather than the look of the pros where it's like the only goal of the shoulder turn was to delivery to the upperarm ... and any follow through or further shoulder turn would just be a result of that first goal. Subtle maybe ... but I see it. The curious thing about it is I have always taken pride in having smooth strokes and good follow through. To me that meant the smooth shoulder turn contantly through impact and to final follow through. Watch the pros ... that really isn't happening, at least not when they are going for max. Also ... "the pros" is a bit of a stretch, because they don't all do the same thing. I'm thinking Radwanska for example ... nothing looks according to "rules or standards" to me ... and yet ... check out her record.

I get stuck on watching too much slow motion video, and not enough full pace strokes. Watch the leading shoulder with both the FH and BH with Djokovic. The BH shoulder stopping is even more pronounced. Curious what you think...

http://www.essentialtennis.com/novak-djokovic-forehand-and-backhand-side-view/
 
learning by feel may be easier.

if you shadow swing a normal speed forehand and make a swoosh sound, where is that sound the loudest? for most people who actively rotate and accelerate thru the ball, that loud point will be somewhere around the left chest, which is a lot of speed wasted after the ball would have been gone already.

same concept as my 'do NOT accelerate' thread.... the question is, how do you put the loudest part of the swoosh on the ball.... the answer is that 1-3 feet before impact (depending on individual swing style), you have to ease off the rotation/acceleration and let the racket release.

again.... ease-off means taking the foot off gas, it's not the same thing as deceleration, which means stepping on the brake.

once you feel the loose-slap impact, you will never go back to the old way (of accelerating thru the ball), which feels 'sticky' and power-lack.

Meant to reply to your "swoosh" ... my prior 2hbh swoosh thread failed miserably. :(

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/take-the-2hbh-swoosh-test.571089/
 
the 2hbh swoosh should come from the left hand rolling over the right.... a 2-handed windshield wipe.

We are just ahead of our time with the "swoosh" :)

You will have to explain "roll over" and WW. I don't think the left hand rolls over right hand. Based on what I understand the definition of WW is (follow through) ... it is impossible with 2hbh. I saw a video where they were referring to 2hbh WW and made no sense. The tip of the racquet travels on the swing arc like a conentional FH.

Be curious what you mean.
 
We are just ahead of our time with the "swoosh" :)

You will have to explain "roll over" and WW. I don't think the left hand rolls over right hand. Based on what I understand the definition of WW is (follow through) ... it is impossible with 2hbh. I saw a video where they were referring to 2hbh WW and made no sense. The tip of the racquet travels on the swing arc like a conentional FH.

Be curious what you mean.


the 'snap' he talks about at 3:00
 

the 'snap' he talks about at 3:00

Jared Donaldson at 12 ... 8 year flashback.

When I hear "hands rolling over" I think in terms of hands rolling over like the release in golf. Got it ... you mean (and Mario) the release of the forearm/racquet angle (double pendulum again ... always a common thread).

Mario did a great job ... I agreed with all of it until he added the WW hand action and follow through. I do not think that happens ... in the snap or in the follow through. The other arm is in the way for a WW follow through even if some players did include some WW in the snap. You can watch players like Alexander Zverev ... very simple release. Djokovic and Nishikori definitely add extracurricular hand/wrist/racquet drop ... but I haven't seen WW snap to contact.

Now off to check my 2hbh video for double pendulum angle, or lack of ... and look at pro 2hbh videos to look for WW snap.

fyi ... my 2hbh left hand added acceleration is the same whether I swing level for a flat shot, or swing low to high for topspin. Describing that 2hbh right arm left arm action is about as hard as describing the flip ... or 6" from impact deceleration. But I have settled on this for what is happening with mine... from slot:

1) create good forearm/racquet angle lag
2) swing the shoulders and extended arm triangle as one unit
3) add booster rha/rhs with the left arm starting very near the forward swing in the slot
 
the 2hbh swoosh should come from the left hand rolling over the right.... a 2-handed windshield wipe.

OK ... did a little video inspection ... Djokovic and my 2hbh video. I was looking for:

Djokovic:
1) forearm/racquet angle lag (bigger lag ... bigger potential RHS)
2) any WW action from lag to contact (add topspin? add RHS?)
3) flipping point (later release ... bigger potential RHS)
4) forearm/racquet angle at contact (how much angle was released by contact from lag ... greater angle release potential for more RHS)

Then I took a quick look at my videoed 2hbh to compare to Djokovic (shouldn't do that :) )

Here is Djokovic pics, comment after ...

ch6fu6gt.gif
VBEEj9Ut.gif
nXyHNEgt.gif
VT2gh7Dt.gif


Comments:

- The release happens around the right hand, so pic #1 shows initial lag angle (Note: both angled back, and down (the WW preset if you will)
- the second pic is the flipping point... the point where the racquet head first starts to rotate foward. This is the release point. Note... even though angle isn't perfect, he is releasing near the front hip. In my pic below of my release point, it to early compared to his.
- by contact, pic #3 ... his forearm/racquet are back in line (almost), so he released the full angle (almost) from pic #1 ... from less than 45 degrees back, less than 45 degrees down (WW)
- last pic shows racquet is not taking a WW follow through ... like I said, I don't think it can because the other arm being there prevents that. But ... I don't think that means Djokovic doesn't use WW snap into contact... I think he does. I will post this video at the bottom, and others can give opinions one way or the other.

pOSHFpat.gif


Better view of forearm/racquet angle at contact... pretty close to back in line. Note bent/flex.

The next pic has noting to do with this discussion, but good illustration of hip and shoulder coil.

fvuuI9nt.gif



OK ... following was from my latest 2hbh video. Not a perfect angle, but comments follow:

tLkOpHDt.gif
uk9J2b1t.gif


Comments:

- Hard to tell from this angle, but looks like I have room to introduce more lag (butt cap more outward in forward swing
- thought that second pic looked like I released way too early, but when I checked against video from the side, I was pretty good at the flipping point being right up near the front hip.

This was the video I was looking at to see if Djokovic had WW snap :)

@00:24

 
OK ... did a little video inspection ... Djokovic and my 2hbh video. I was looking for:

Djokovic:
1) forearm/racquet angle lag (bigger lag ... bigger potential RHS)
2) any WW action from lag to contact (add topspin? add RHS?)
3) flipping point (later release ... bigger potential RHS)
4) forearm/racquet angle at contact (how much angle was released by contact from lag ... greater angle release potential for more RHS)

Then I took a quick look at my videoed 2hbh to compare to Djokovic (shouldn't do that :) )

Here is Djokovic pics, comment after ...

ch6fu6gt.gif
VBEEj9Ut.gif
nXyHNEgt.gif
VT2gh7Dt.gif


Comments:

- The release happens around the right hand, so pic #1 shows initial lag angle (Note: both angled back, and down (the WW preset if you will)
- the second pic is the flipping point... the point where the racquet head first starts to rotate foward. This is the release point. Note... even though angle isn't perfect, he is releasing near the front hip. In my pic below of my release point, it to early compared to his.
- by contact, pic #3 ... his forearm/racquet are back in line (almost), so he released the full angle (almost) from pic #1 ... from less than 45 degrees back, less than 45 degrees down (WW)
- last pic shows racquet is not taking a WW follow through ... like I said, I don't think it can because the other arm being there prevents that. But ... I don't think that means Djokovic doesn't use WW snap into contact... I think he does. I will post this video at the bottom, and others can give opinions one way or the other.

pOSHFpat.gif


Better view of forearm/racquet angle at contact... pretty close to back in line. Note bent/flex.

The next pic has noting to do with this discussion, but good illustration of hip and shoulder coil.

fvuuI9nt.gif



OK ... following was from my latest 2hbh video. Not a perfect angle, but comments follow:

tLkOpHDt.gif
uk9J2b1t.gif


Comments:

- Hard to tell from this angle, but looks like I have room to introduce more lag (butt cap more outward in forward swing
- thought that second pic looked like I released way too early, but when I checked against video from the side, I was pretty good at the flipping point being right up near the front hip.

This was the video I was looking at to see if Djokovic had WW snap :)

@00:24


the snap is quite obvious, no? otherwise how do you generate rhs..... the one he hit at :00:40 looks like not much WW snap there, but I think he mis-timed that one.
 
the snap is quite obvious, no? otherwise how do you generate rhs..... the one he hit at :00:40 looks like not much WW snap there, but I think he mis-timed that one.

The release of the lag is obvious. Adding WW to it ... not so much. You aren't thinking all 2hbh include a WW component are you?

No WW here ... just left hand hitting. Swinging a bat ... no WW swinging a bat in baseball.

00:42

 
the 2hbh swoosh should come from the left hand rolling over the right.... a 2-handed windshield wipe.

Tennis is hard, explaining it even harder. :)

As foolish as it is to go against geca, Mario and Clay Ballard ... here I go anyway. I don't think there is any WW in the 2hbh.

Do you hit a 2hbh, btw?

Hold your normal 2hbh grips ... with racquet out to your side like this, except not closed ... just neutral vertical racquet face:

BrcJVUHt.gif


Now simply toggle racquet left and right with relaxed grip. That's the snap.
 
Tennis is hard, explaining it even harder. :)

As foolish as it is to go against geca, Mario and Clay Ballard ... here I go anyway. I don't think there is any WW in the 2hbh.

Do you hit a 2hbh, btw?

Hold your normal 2hbh grips ... with racquet out to your side like this, except not closed ... just neutral vertical racquet face:

BrcJVUHt.gif


Now simply toggle racquet left and right with relaxed grip. That's the snap.

i think it depends on the grip.. assuming the left hand is always eastern... what is your right hand grip? eastern? - then ww will be difficult.. but if the right hand is continental, I don't see why not.

I hit mostly 1hbh...

I'd think Mario knows what he's doing lol.
 
i think it depends on the grip.. assuming the left hand is always eastern... what is your right hand grip? eastern? - then ww will be difficult.. but if the right hand is continental, I don't see why not.

I hit mostly 1hbh...

I'd think Mario knows what he's doing lol.

Yeah ... I did use the word "foolish" ... but I am sticking with my foolish statement ... no WW in 2hbh. :)

I hit with continental right, and eastern left. That's a pretty standard 2hbh grip. I get natural easy topspin with low to high swing path without closed face. I have never closed the face in 40 years of tennis as far as I know. I can now hit really good pace off that wing. I don't know about grips changing it ... because having two hands on the grip eliminates most of the stuff we talk about on the FH. You have to hit with left hand, but it is definitely not a left handed FH.

I think this was a shoulder thread ... lol
 
OK ... did a little video inspection .
ch6fu6gt.gif
VBEEj9Ut.gif
nXyHNEgt.gif
VT2gh7Dt.gif





In the first frame Djokovic lets his left hand/arm take control. His right wrist has to go totally loose not to impeded. The major point of interest is that at the bottom of the backswing Dj straightens his left arm almost completely and rolls his left arm counterclockwise. Yet, ESR.

In the second, third, and fourth frames he uses rotation, then raising major ISR...which you seem to be calling flip. Nadal does this only on certain kinds of backhand ones in which he is not going to use major bicep, but is going for power not spin.
 

1. Sharapova: If you conclude that she isn't working hard to pull the off elbow in and then lift her forearm to decelerate the left side exactly into the hit, you should look at video of her forehand hits from the back, when she's wearing the typical sleeveless top. You'll see the muscles at her left shoulder blade bulge like a pumped-up weightlifter. It's dramatic.

2. The action of the off arm in the forehand varies only slightly in form and extent from player to player. Lendl and Budge are the only two I've seen who bring the left-swinging off arm straight down toward their left leg, then loop rightward and lift it just into the hit. It works great. You can try it and you will feel the point of it. There's video here and there. JY has some on his sight.

3. There isn't much of a debate about the use of the off arm. It's been settled technique for a very long time. If you actually try it yourself, you'll feel the impact the off arm has: Swing it left to impart momentum as the hitting arm lowers the racquet. The off-arm elbow pull-in is timed to the instant forward torso rotation is desired. In Fed's case you'll see that as the instant he straightens his hitting arm fully, allows his hitting arm to roll clockswise....leaving his arm in ESR and his wrist (the instant torso rotation forces his hitting arm forward) in what is usually called lag. This all happens fast, and is observed as "flip" by those watching full speed video, or a live hit. Once your racquet is rising to the ball, when you've turned on the ISR and the hit is imminent...lift the off-arm forearm. The lift need only be a few inches. It is the change of direction that matters, has the effect. At length if you try it carefully, then energetically, you'll feel it, you'll get it, and it won't be mysterious.

4. If you are wondering IF the left (or right for a lefty) arm serves these functions in synchrony with the hitting arm and torso rotation, you're wasting your time. Just look from player to player in slow motion, current and those of past decades, and identify the variations. If you need more, find a better source of slow motion video, and go watch Pete's forehand. You cannot possible get the synchronization and subtleties by watch full speed...but then just slowing down what you think are the critical instants. It doesn't work.

5. I've hashed this out with very good coaches publicly, and I learned it from two absolute stars. It isn't a random discussion of why that appearance of slow down might be happening. Make of it what you will.
 
In the first frame Djokovic lets his left hand/arm take control. His right wrist has to go totally loose not to impeded. The major point of interest is that at the bottom of the backswing Dj straightens his left arm almost completely and rolls his left arm counterclockwise. Yet, ESR.

In the second, third, and fourth frames he uses rotation, then raising major ISR...which you seem to be calling flip. Nadal does this only on certain kinds of backhand ones in which he is not going to use major bicep, but is going for power not spin.

No ... I didn't call anything on the 2hbh a flip or a snap. Mario called it a snap in the video... and I have seen others (Clay Ballard) call it lag and snap. The debate was about Geca and Mario saying there is WW in the 2hbh. I don't see it ... but could just be a definition thing.

Will comment more, including your second post tomorrow.
 
Let's be honest for these pros there styles are executed and are easy muscle memories for there brain. It's so difficult for u to copy because we always think we're doing it right but when it comes to swinging it's below the seconds and millimetres that matters most it can impact the shot to go long or execute it correctly.
 
OK ... following was from my latest 2hbh video. Not a perfect angle, but comments follow:

tLkOpHDt.gif
uk9J2b1t.gif


Comments:

- Hard to tell from this angle, but looks like I have room to introduce more lag (butt cap more outward in forward swing
- thought that second pic looked like I released way too early, but when I checked against video from the side, I was pretty good at the flipping point being right up near the front hip.
Your 2hbh grip looks fairly conservative. Also looking at how your string face is open when the racquet head is still below your hands' level, facing an incoming ball that's about chest high, it looks like your 2hbh stroke for that particular shot in your screen grab is more of a flat push/shovel with the left hand. The pros have the racquet face perpendicular to the ground or even slightly closed when the racquet head is below the hands, and then the racquet head will come up and meet the ball so around contact the racquet head and both hands would be at roughly the same level, and then the racquet head keeps rising as the swing extends through contact where the left hand would now be higher than the right hand, continuing all the way finishing at or above the shoulder. So there is the "WW" element where the racquet head whips up from low to high to give it extra top spin, but it's not as evidently "wipe-ish" as forehands look.
 
The release of the lag is obvious. Adding WW to it ... not so much. You aren't thinking all 2hbh include a WW component are you?

No WW here ... just left hand hitting. Swinging a bat ... no WW swinging a bat in baseball.

00:42

Pause the video at 51, 52 and 53 seconds, look at Zverev's hand positions and racquet head position, also where his strings face at 53 seconds.
 
1. Sharapova: If you conclude that she isn't working hard to pull the off elbow in and then lift her forearm to decelerate the left side exactly into the hit, you should look at video of her forehand hits from the back, when she's wearing the typical sleeveless top. You'll see the muscles at her left shoulder blade bulge like a pumped-up weightlifter. It's dramatic.

2. The action of the off arm in the forehand varies only slightly in form and extent from player to player. Lendl and Budge are the only two I've seen who bring the left-swinging off arm straight down toward their left leg, then loop rightward and lift it just into the hit. It works great. You can try it and you will feel the point of it. There's video here and there. JY has some on his sight.

3. There isn't much of a debate about the use of the off arm. It's been settled technique for a very long time. If you actually try it yourself, you'll feel the impact the off arm has: Swing it left to impart momentum as the hitting arm lowers the racquet. The off-arm elbow pull-in is timed to the instant forward torso rotation is desired. In Fed's case you'll see that as the instant he straightens his hitting arm fully, allows his hitting arm to roll clockswise....leaving his arm in ESR and his wrist (the instant torso rotation forces his hitting arm forward) in what is usually called lag. This all happens fast, and is observed as "flip" by those watching full speed video, or a live hit. Once your racquet is rising to the ball, when you've turned on the ISR and the hit is imminent...lift the off-arm forearm. The lift need only be a few inches. It is the change of direction that matters, has the effect. At length if you try it carefully, then energetically, you'll feel it, you'll get it, and it won't be mysterious.

4. If you are wondering IF the left (or right for a lefty) arm serves these functions in synchrony with the hitting arm and torso rotation, you're wasting your time. Just look from player to player in slow motion, current and those of past decades, and identify the variations. If you need more, find a better source of slow motion video, and go watch Pete's forehand. You cannot possible get the synchronization and subtleties by watch full speed...but then just slowing down what you think are the critical instants. It doesn't work.

5. I've hashed this out with very good coaches publicly, and I learned it from two absolute stars. It isn't a random discussion of why that appearance of slow down might be happening. Make of it what you will.

Hey Curiosity ... let me be clear about one thing to you, and anyone reading these posts. If you find ByeByePoly disagreeing (really just offering Contrarian view) with Curiosity, go with Curiosity. See the date on my profile pic ... says Aug 2, 2016. That's about the first time I started looking at pro FH videos, thought about hips, shoulders, grips, flips, ESR, ISR, wrists, wrist movements. Other than looking at a lot of pro 2hbh video 18 months ago when I converted to 2hbh, I was a totally happy camper with never thinking about any of this. Never taught anyone tennis (other than teaching myself 2hbh), and never even had lessons of my own. Lot's of learning by just playing ... tournaments were the best teachers, followed by drill groups with our awesome head pro at the club. Got TE around Aug 2016, showed up here looking for input for TE ... and ended up in a deep dive :) on FH flips and arm anatomy. I haven't been able to play much, so filling the void "talking about tennis" here. Also, turns out I actually find watching video and and comparing what I think I see with the guys here that actually have been talking about this (and actually some coaching) for a long time.

So ByeByePoly "teaching others" credential ... ZERO. Everyone has been warned. That does not seem to stop me from saying what I see in video. :)

So I see that off arm looking like a "crash test dummy" when the shoulder turn stops. I think following my own advice about Curiosity vs ME ... I have a 99% chance of being wrong. Chas has pointed out the gear icon on Youtube videos where I can slow down super slow motion videos another .25 ... so my plans are to revist this off-arm breakage soon. I will report back when the enlightening hits ... Limpin's will tell you with me that can be anywhere from "months" to "never". Seriously, I put your Nunchuk post and Bender's recent FH posts at the top of the list for "splainin stuff". btw... do you coach? I have had the thought it could be quite satisfying teaching someone tennis. That was actually my reasoning for creating my DIY 2hbh thread soon after my learning curve. I knew there were "experts" available ... including here on TT ... and that I certainly wasn't an "expert". But I was someone who just went through the learning curve ... with the pitfalls and "what it felt like" fresh on my mind. We all get muscle memory ingrained, and what it feels like during the initial learning curve has long past. I think there is perhaps added value to listen to the experts, and also listen to those who just came through the process. Maybe not... but it is free.

I will get on the FH left-arm breakage soon... thanks for the wise input.
 
Hey Curiosity ... I knew there were "experts" available ... including here on TT ... and that I certainly wasn't an "expert". But I was someone who just went through the learning curve ... with the pitfalls and "what it felt like" fresh on my mind. We all get muscle memory ingrained, and what it feels like during the initial learning curve has long past. I think there is perhaps added value to listen to the experts, and also listen to those who just came through the process. Maybe not... but it is free.

I will get on the FH left-arm breakage soon... thanks for the wise input.
I agree it is valuable to hear from lots of perspectives.
 
There is a big difference in watching pro players do warm up swings as opposed to watching them in matches. I prefer watching match video if you want to see their mechanics. To me the nonchalant warm up swings are not very useful.
 
Your 2hbh grip looks fairly conservative. Also looking at how your string face is open when the racquet head is still below your hands' level, facing an incoming ball that's about chest high, it looks like your 2hbh stroke for that particular shot in your screen grab is more of a flat push/shovel with the left hand. The pros have the racquet face perpendicular to the ground or even slightly closed when the racquet head is below the hands, and then the racquet head will come up and meet the ball so around contact the racquet head and both hands would be at roughly the same level, and then the racquet head keeps rising as the swing extends through contact where the left hand would now be higher than the right hand, continuing all the way finishing at or above the shoulder. So there is the "WW" element where the racquet head whips up from low to high to give it extra top spin, but it's not as evidently "wipe-ish" as forehands look.

My right hand grip is continental, left hand grip is eastern. I think that is a basic/conservative 2hbh grip. According to John Yandell, that was the grip of Aggasi, Safin, Kafelnikov among others. My goal is to hit a bent\straight (at contact). From my video review ... pretty close, do see some slight flex in left arm sometimes, but based on the same JY article, it is normal to vary left arm hitting position (straight/flex) depending on shot. Supposedly Safin varied between shots. I have noticed that if I want to go for a topspin lob with the 2hbh, I find it easier with a flex in the left arm, then to leave it fully extended.

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/two_handed_backhand/2hd_bh_simplest_complex/Copy of 2hd_bh_simplest_complex.html

The previous pics angle might have been deceiving ... it was from behind. Here are pics from a side view video.

CxJd51sm.gif
7GQNeHGm.gif
5vzFgM4m.gif
 
Last edited:
There is a big difference in watching pro players do warm up swings as opposed to watching them in matches. I prefer watching match video if you want to see their mechanics. To me the nonchalant warm up swings are not very useful.

I definitely have come to the conclusion that if you are only watching warmup videos, you aren't getting the full picture. That said, I don't agree warmup videos have no value. I think you can get the basic mechanics of the stroke from them ... backswing positions, hands positions, swing paths, etc. But you need full swing videos for hip and shoulder turns, racquet face, heavy topspin, etc. Some of the good videos I have seen start with slow warmup strokes and progress to full hits. Even after those, you need to then go watch live match type of video on top of that. Even better ... watch matches on TV and use pause and slow motion. You can't get the frame by frame stuff ... but like I have said a bunch of times here, you can't help but learn from watching Murray 2hbh follow through variations in a match on TV.

JMO.
 
In the first frame Djokovic lets his left hand/arm take control. His right wrist has to go totally loose not to impeded. The major point of interest is that at the bottom of the backswing Dj straightens his left arm almost completely and rolls his left arm counterclockwise. Yet, ESR.

In the second, third, and fourth frames he uses rotation, then raising major ISR...which you seem to be calling flip. Nadal does this only on certain kinds of backhand ones in which he is not going to use major bicep, but is going for power not spin.

The conversation with Geca was about 2hbh snap ... "WW snap" in particular. Geca linked a video of Mario Llena instructional video of the 2hbh (a young Jared Donaldson in the video). Like I said ... I'm new to the "instruction tennis world", so I had never heard of Mario. (Ironically I'm just watching the first season of Narcos ... and Medellin Columbia is front and center. That appears to be his hometown ... ironic timing.) I'm watching his video ... and I'm thinking ... wow, this guy is really good (and he is). I loved how he was explaining the 2hbh. He was referring to the "nunchuk release" as a snap ... that's cool. Works for me. But then he said WW into the snap ... and that ran into my understanding of what WW is. That's why I think it all may be a definition issue.

I have believed the term WW has probably caused more harm than help teaching/understanding the more modern low to high FH. To me, the players ... with lighter racquets, just swing more low to high ... NOT unique WW stroke other than more low to high. Regardless of the argument about "it's gone from linear stepping into the shot" vs "more rotational now" ... the players are swinging more low to high, however that happened. I just don't see the value in calling anything a WW before contact. The stroke is what is always has been ... just more low to high because you can do it without hurting yourself from a 14 oz racquet. Now ... when it comes to the follow through, I see some teaching value because it's a checkpoint for your swing to see if you are really hitting that steeper low to high swing path. If you are, the WW follow through is nothing more than the natural path of your arm and racquet face... i.e. you would have to make an effort for it not to take that path.

So my WW definition has been:
1) only refers to one of the variations of FH follow throughs
2) if you are at the net watching your opponent hit a WW follow through ... you will see hitting side of the strings of your opponent in his entire follow through. Sometimes tip of racquet more flatter arc ... sometimes across the opponents face with strings clearly visible
3) since two arms and hands on the racquet with 2hbh, WW follow through is physically impossible because the lead/dominant arm stops any WW ... the racquet tip has to swing across the arc.

So that is my definition ... and it's why I can't square what Mario said in his video with that definition. Now ... I'm certain Mario would give a different definition ... and then it would make sense to me.

So where you probably thought I was calling it a "flip" is where I was trying to describe the main "nunchuk hinge action" in the 2hbh. That was the part with holding the racquet extended in your 2hbh position (the pic... that is actually Clay Ballard) in the post above. Then waggle racquet left and right ... I think that is the 2hbh nunchuk/double pendulum hinge joint ... not the ISR WW action into the shot. Again ... that seems physically impossible to me ... because that left arm (non-domiant) can't do the equivalent of a left handed forehand because that right/dominant arm ain't going to get out of the way. Man... did I learn that lesson painfully switching to the 2hbh ... "why the f*** is this extra arm and hand holding on to the racquet".

btw... I think it might be helpful to think of both hands on the racquet as one hand on the racquet. The anchor/hinge point is the dominant/right hand... but you are hitting with the left hand ... combine them and you have the action of one hand.

Now ... really ... all of that doesn't matter much ... the fact that the 2hbh has a lag angle and release is key point (if you are hitting a decent 2hbh with pace and topspin ... you are doing the right stuff regardless if you can't explain how). When I see Djokovic and Nishikori playing Gumby with their hands and racquet in the lag, I think I know why. They know they can't match the "FH lag w/flip" because they can't flip from the 2hbh. This alone might be why the pros can't match their FH pace with their 2hbhs ... less lag angle to release. (Don't even talk about Wawrinka 1hbh pace ... that messes with my head and theories more than Henin) They are trying to squeeze every bit of nunchuk forearm/racquet angle out they can ... so they can release it into contact. Think about it ... if you compare pat the dog FH position to 2hbh initial slot position, those are both pretty close in forward swing length (short backswings). There is only so many tricks with the 2hbh you can do to get the most lag angle possible. With the FH you can go way past the 90 degrees ... not so much with the 2hbh.

I had read an article a long time ago ... FuzzyYellowBalls or OptimumTennis about the WW. That is where I first got the concept the WW was just applicable as a description of "some" FH follow throughs. I couldn't fine that article again to link here. In fact, I found articles on both of those now describing the WW as part of the pre-contact FHs. All comes down to definitions.

I found the following article interesting. If nothing else, the pics of contact points where interesting.

http://www.tennisviewmag.com/tennis-view-magazine/article/myths-tennis-forehand-contact-point
 
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