Finally beat my tormenter by imitating Nadal

J

jdubbs

Hall of Fame
So every week for the last 4 years or so I play a friend of mine. He's a high 4.5 and had some success at 5.0. I'm a low to middling 4.5.

His game: Big serve, huge huge FH (it jumps off the court something fierce), solid BH
My game: Big serve, good FH, ok BH

We get in a pattern where he immediately attacks my BH and we start a cross court exchange where he runs around his BH and hits ever bigger FH's to my BH until he wins the point. I mean...every time.

So I was watching Nadal/Del Potro match from 2013 on Tennis Channel, and realized the lengths Nadal went to run around his BH, practically off the court.

So I consciously tried to do this on every shot, completely cheating to that side and running around every BH. I gave up a few winners to the other side but was able to stay in a lot more rallies and keep him on the defensive.

Result was my running around my BH to hit my FH was a much stronger and he couldn't run around his BH as much. And when he did, he started trying to paint the lines to get to my BH which caused his shots to go out.

We split sets before I won in a tiebreak, but to me, who maybe gets 1 set every 3 months when he's really off his game, this was a major win. He was playing at a high level yesterday and complimented me on my change in tactics.

I know what you're thinking...why did it take me so long? Truthfully, I tried this tactic at times but never committed to it and really watching Nadal's footwork and his process to get to his FH on every shot inspired me to really commit to it yesterday.

By the way, I don't like watching Nadal that much, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so respect to Rafa.
 
That's not really a Nadal situation, because it doesn't sound like that guy is left handed.

I have a very close Fed-Nadal situation on my hands with a friend:
Me: Righty; Strong, attacking FH; big serve; aggressive overall game; 1HBH with is great with low balls but struggles high.

Him: Lefty; incredibly athletic (never tires); incredibly quick (retrieves everything and very instinctual); high topspin buggy whip FH; meh BH but he runs around it so easily with his quickness.

Playing him is a huge struggle.

Glad to see you got your win OP! I'm working on consistently beating my guy. We always play each other close but I really have to work hard.
 
Interesting. I will try that, too.

I guess that running around backhands brings two benefits:
1. Shot placement and quality are better.
2. My own footwork is better.
 
Why isn't this like imitating Haas, or Federer, or even Gasquet?
Every good player would rather hit a forehand than a backhand, even Almagro.
 
LeeD said:
Why isn't this like imitating Haas, or Federer, or even Gasquet?
Every good player would rather hit a forehand than a backhand, even Almagro.
Click to expand...

Exactly. I play against a guy every Friday who has a very weak backhand but runs around it every time. I stubbornly persist in playing a balanced game, but can never hit convincing winners from the backhand wing. Like many other walks of life, success in tennis is not about having a balanced set of skills, but having weapons in favor of working on weaknesses. You are only as good as your weakest link is really not true in life. Imbalanced approach, whether it is excessive work in place of family time, or a crazy desire to make money, or being nasty, is what succeeds.

I believe running around the backhand was pioneered or at least popularized by Nick at his academy?
 
jdubbs said:
So every week for the last 4 years or so I play a friend of mine. He's a high 4.5 and had some success at 5.0. I'm a low to middling 4.5.

His game: Big serve, huge huge FH (it jumps off the court something fierce), solid BH
My game: Big serve, good FH, ok BH

We get in a pattern where he immediately attacks my BH and we start a cross court exchange where he runs around his BH and hits ever bigger FH's to my BH until he wins the point. I mean...every time.

So I was watching Nadal/Del Potro match from 2013 on Tennis Channel, and realized the lengths Nadal went to run around his BH, practically off the court.

So I consciously tried to do this on every shot, completely cheating to that side and running around every BH. I gave up a few winners to the other side but was able to stay in a lot more rallies and keep him on the defensive.

Result was my running around my BH to hit my FH was a much stronger and he couldn't run around his BH as much. And when he did, he started trying to paint the lines to get to my BH which caused his shots to go out.

We split sets before I won in a tiebreak, but to me, who maybe gets 1 set every 3 months when he's really off his game, this was a major win. He was playing at a high level yesterday and complimented me on my change in tactics.

I know what you're thinking...why did it take me so long? Truthfully, I tried this tactic at times but never committed to it and really watching Nadal's footwork and his process to get to his FH on every shot inspired me to really commit to it yesterday.

By the way, I don't like watching Nadal that much, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so respect to Rafa.
Click to expand...

I see your point related to how Nadal will run around stuff that almost no one else would. Nice job and good win!
 
I'm sure a lot of other players do it, but it was just so extreme with Nadal, and I happened to be watching him, and it clicked.

Check out this video, outside the backhand lines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NejC-EgG2bM

I don't care if I hit another backhand, I'm doing this from now on unless my opponent clearly demonstrates he can hit really well down the line to keep me honest. I've let too many midcourt shots fall to my backhand when I could have easily run around it for a much better shot. This matters at the high 4.5 levels, believe me.
 
Yesterday, watched two former ATP out of 1,000's guys playing 3 sets of singles. Age around 40 and 44. Maybe 6.5's 20 years ago, but now play league 4.5.
Neither bothered to run around their backhands, but both had backhands equal to their forehands, at least in placement, if not in pure power.
Their backhands could hard slice, heavy topspin, and both used sidespin approach shots.
Their forehand swings were harder, but certainly not any more reliable, possibly if anything, a little more erratic. More winners, but more losers too.
And for both, the deep heavy slice backhand totally neutralized the point in progress.
 
Running around BH is not only about getting your "stronger" FH into play, it's also about getting an INSIDE stroke into play. Like Wardlaw directionals explain, it's much easier to attack and/or change direction of the ball on inside stroke, THAT'S WHY the pros runaround their BH.

It's not a matter of whether a player has BH equal to their FH.
 
LeeD said:
Why isn't this like imitating Haas, or Federer, or even Gasquet?
Every good player would rather hit a forehand than a backhand, even Almagro.
Click to expand...

Because the match he watched and decided to mimic was Nadal v Delpo.:)

I'm sure there are other matches that could have lead him to the same conclusion, but he didn't watch those.

I'm giving you a hard time Lee.
 
torpantennis said:
Running around BH is not only about getting your "stronger" FH into play, it's also about getting an INSIDE stroke into play. Like Wardlaw directionals explain, it's much easier to attack and/or change direction of the ball on inside stroke, THAT'S WHY the pros runaround their BH.

It's not a matter of whether a player has BH equal to their FH.
Click to expand...

There is a reason everybody does it, right? It doesn't matter if they have a BH that is equal, or even superior, to their FH, they all try to hit FHs as much as possible.

Djokovic, Murray, Wawrinka, Gasquet, etc. All have high level backhands and they'll all run around it to hit a FH if given the opportunity. If this wasn't the correct strategy, everyone wouldn't be doing it.

And, in all seriousness, a great backhand is great relative to other backhands. As a shot, it isn't judged in comparison to forehands. Who has a backhand that is bigger shot than their forehand? Nobody. Wawrinka's backhand is as big as they come, but he can still hit his forehand bigger. Some guys may be more consistent with their BH and thus it is deemed a better stroke because it doesn't break down, but the FH is the attacking shot in everyone's game. Because you can hit it bigger, and consequently, that often means it can be both a weapon and a weakness, resulting in winners or errors depending on the day.

The very best guys have forehands that are consistent, reliable weapons and backhands that are consistent, rally shots that can be used as weapons when the opportunity presents itself. They can hurt you with the backhand, but their game isn't built around getting opportunities to hit BHs.
 
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Played another 4.5 about my level yesterday, used the same tactic. He was able to go down the line with his BH a bit more and won those points, but missed a LOT more than he made, and I overpowered him hitting inside out FH's to his BH and won both sets.

So it seems to be a winning strategy so far, but play another nemesis who's beat me at least the last 10 times we've played without me winning a set (I don't think I've even gotten to 4 games in any one set). That's this weekend so I'll report back.
 
The other night I was hitting with a friend, and I started imitating Nadal's grunts. I actually started hitting the ball better than I have in a long while. I couldn't help but rip it aggressively when grunting like that. I'd probably get banned from my club if I did it all the time though.
 
jdubbs said:
So every week for the last 4 years or so I play a friend of mine. He's a high 4.5 and had some success at 5.0. I'm a low to middling 4.5.

His game: Big serve, huge huge FH (it jumps off the court something fierce), solid BH
My game: Big serve, good FH, ok BH

We get in a pattern where he immediately attacks my BH and we start a cross court exchange where he runs around his BH and hits ever bigger FH's to my BH until he wins the point. I mean...every time.

So I was watching Nadal/Del Potro match from 2013 on Tennis Channel, and realized the lengths Nadal went to run around his BH, practically off the court.

So I consciously tried to do this on every shot, completely cheating to that side and running around every BH. I gave up a few winners to the other side but was able to stay in a lot more rallies and keep him on the defensive.

Result was my running around my BH to hit my FH was a much stronger and he couldn't run around his BH as much. And when he did, he started trying to paint the lines to get to my BH which caused his shots to go out.

We split sets before I won in a tiebreak, but to me, who maybe gets 1 set every 3 months when he's really off his game, this was a major win. He was playing at a high level yesterday and complimented me on my change in tactics.

I know what you're thinking...why did it take me so long? Truthfully, I tried this tactic at times but never committed to it and really watching Nadal's footwork and his process to get to his FH on every shot inspired me to really commit to it yesterday.

By the way, I don't like watching Nadal that much, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so respect to Rafa.
Click to expand...

Congrats on the win. Would be interesting to hear how the next match goes.
 
jdubbs said:
We split sets before I won in a tiebreak, but to me, who maybe gets 1 set every 3 months when he's really off his game, this was a major win. He was playing at a high level yesterday and complimented me on my change in tactics.
Click to expand...

Congratulations on the win! I would like to say that your friend sounds awesome! The fact that he continually dominates you and still plays with you says that you definitely bring something to the table in terms of challenging him, and the fact that he complimented you when you won says he is an awesome person.

I'm not sure if there is anything sweeter than improving to a point where you beat someone that has dominated you for so long. It's a wonderful feeling.
 
It is popularized by clay court players. There is more time to run around and backhand and to cover the opening on clay. Look at David Ferrer. He plays a lot of inside out rally shots.

It is also has a lot to do with the directionals. But the advantage of playing an inside shot is not large enough to entice the players to run around the forehand. Gasquet and Li Na have strong backhands but only occasionally does it.
 
LeeD said:
Why isn't this like imitating Haas, or Federer, or even Gasquet?
Every good player would rather hit a forehand than a backhand, even Almagro.
Click to expand...

How often do Federer and Gasquet run around their BH?

That's two of the best SHBH in the world right now. They hit winners with it.
 
jdubbs said:
So every week for the last 4 years or so I play a friend of mine. He's a high 4.5 and had some success at 5.0. I'm a low to middling 4.5.

His game: Big serve, huge huge FH (it jumps off the court something fierce), solid BH
My game: Big serve, good FH, ok BH

We get in a pattern where he immediately attacks my BH and we start a cross court exchange where he runs around his BH and hits ever bigger FH's to my BH until he wins the point. I mean...every time.

So I was watching Nadal/Del Potro match from 2013 on Tennis Channel, and realized the lengths Nadal went to run around his BH, practically off the court.

So I consciously tried to do this on every shot, completely cheating to that side and running around every BH. I gave up a few winners to the other side but was able to stay in a lot more rallies and keep him on the defensive.

Result was my running around my BH to hit my FH was a much stronger and he couldn't run around his BH as much. And when he did, he started trying to paint the lines to get to my BH which caused his shots to go out.

We split sets before I won in a tiebreak, but to me, who maybe gets 1 set every 3 months when he's really off his game, this was a major win. He was playing at a high level yesterday and complimented me on my change in tactics.

I know what you're thinking...why did it take me so long? Truthfully, I tried this tactic at times but never committed to it and really watching Nadal's footwork and his process to get to his FH on every shot inspired me to really commit to it yesterday.

By the way, I don't like watching Nadal that much, but imitation is the sincerest form of flattery so respect to Rafa.
Click to expand...

Good job.
I play a guy just like your opponent but only a 4.5. The difference is my BH is better than his. My record against him is 0-10 including practice matches because he is just better.

He bullies me by running around his BH, but I watch him play with other strong 4.5 and he can’t and doesn’t run around his BH as much because they would make him pay, so he has a losing record against those players.

My thought is I can try same thing you do and might win a match but will lose the war in the long run if I want to improve my game to compete with those guys. The most dangerous weapon is the BH down the line at any level, so if you always try to protect your BH, you’ll never develop that skill.

I don’t think Nadal run around his BH against Novak as much because he’d get eaten alive.
 
997turbo said:
How often do Federer and Gasquet run around their BH?

That's two of the best SHBH in the world right now. They hit winners with it.
Click to expand...

Actually Federer at his prime runs around his BH all the time. His inside out forehand is one of his best shots. Nowadays his footwork and stamina are not good enough for him to do that as often.
 
The inside out FH to the BH is a winning pattern. If your opponent has a 1-hander and you can hit with good topspin it is one of the first things most people try. Ultimately you are forcing your opponent to go with a BH down the line to get out of the pattern. It's a low percentage shot, especially at the rec. level.

I get the OP's Nadal comments. It really doesn't matter if you are a lefty or not if you can get in the pattern and stay on the offensive. The footwork and court coverage is just tougher for a right handed player.
 
monomer said:
The inside out FH to the BH is a winning pattern. If your opponent has a 1-hander and you can hit with good topspin it is one of the first things most people try. Ultimately you are forcing your opponent to go with a BH down the line to get out of the pattern. It's a low percentage shot, especially at the rec. level.

I get the OP's Nadal comments. It really doesn't matter if you are a lefty or not if you can get in the pattern and stay on the offensive. The footwork and court coverage is just tougher for a right handed player.
Click to expand...
But your opponent can't get into that pattern if you're at the net. :)
 
moonballs said:
A lefty won't be able to get to inside out forehand to BH pattern.
Click to expand...

Doesn't need to.

This thread really shouldn't be about "Nadal-style" players, since everything unique about the "Nadal-style" relies on them being a lefty.

This is just a "guy that runs around his backhand a lot" thread.

Righty vs righty is WAY different than righty vs lefty.
 
Played him again this past weekend, and won the first set 6-1!

I ran out of gas in the second as its hard to run around my BH that much and not get tired, and got spanked 1-6 in the second set, but this is real progress.
 
jdubbs said:
.... but this is real progress.
Click to expand...
Is it? Congrats on the win and improving strategy is always good but....

I can't escape thinking real progress is improving the BH. Frown upon guys who are very one-sided players while acknowledging it can be very and depressingly effective if you have the legs and strong FH.

I will pay more attention during next atp match... don't think pros run around their BHs as much as presented here.
 
tennis_ocd said:
Is it? Congrats on the win and improving strategy is always good but....

I can't escape thinking real progress is improving the BH. Frown upon guys who are very one-sided players while acknowledging it can be very and depressingly effective if you have the legs and strong FH.

I will pay more attention during next atp match... don't think pros run around their BHs as much as presented here.
Click to expand...

Think twice! Good players runaround their BH as much as possible. By far the strongest possible position on the baseline is the inside FH on your BH side. There's more margin for error, and you have the whole court to hit into (with high percentage and peRFect disguise).

Check out what they said after 2012 Cincy final: http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/08/Features/Brain-Game-Federer-Fires-Up-Forehand.aspx

"Federer dominated Djokovic 6-0, 7-6(7)..."

"Federer turned 58 shots in the Ad court into forehands, leaving him hitting only 50 backhands for the match. It makes it hard for Djokovic to attack Federer’s backhand if Federer simply refuses to hit it. Overall, Federer hit more than two out of three (67%) groundstrokes as forehands for the match. 

Federer hit more forehands standing in the Ad court (56%) than he did in the deuce court (44%) for the match. It’s often hard to pinpoint the genius of Federer but that stat is as good as any to understanding why he has spent more weeks at No. 1 than any player in the history of the game. "

It's only lesser players who don't try to runaround their BHs. The more you do it, the more you win, like OP.
 
torpantennis said:
Think twice! Good players runaround their BH as much as possible. By far the strongest possible position on the baseline is the inside FH on your BH side. There's more margin for error, and you have the whole court to hit into (with high percentage and peRFect disguise).

Check out what they said after 2012 Cincy final: http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/08/Features/Brain-Game-Federer-Fires-Up-Forehand.aspx

"Federer dominated Djokovic 6-0, 7-6(7)..."

"Federer turned 58 shots in the Ad court into forehands, leaving him hitting only 50 backhands for the match. It makes it hard for Djokovic to attack Federer’s backhand if Federer simply refuses to hit it. Overall, Federer hit more than two out of three (67%) groundstrokes as forehands for the match. 

Federer hit more forehands standing in the Ad court (56%) than he did in the deuce court (44%) for the match. It’s often hard to pinpoint the genius of Federer but that stat is as good as any to understanding why he has spent more weeks at No. 1 than any player in the history of the game. "

It's only lesser players who don't try to runaround their BHs. The more you do it, the more you win, like OP.
Click to expand...
Ironically one could argue that it is *because* joker has such a good backhand that fed took the strategy of running around some of his.

Still, by the numbers, joker hit 108 balls to ad court and fed returned 58 as FHs, 50 as BHs. Not really earth shattering. But if you have a rec FH like Feds, by all means, run around and unleash it.

Edit: Just read entire article and note that the world No. 1 didn't/doesn't run around BH while the No. 2 did/does ;)
 
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It's not about having a FH like Federer. It is about the forehand being the stronger shot. It doesn't matter who you are.

Match strategy doesn't revolve around getting to or setting up the backhand. The goal is to get more FH opportunities and to attack with it. The backhand needs to be consistent and reliable to stay in rallies and help construct the points, but it's not the big weapon.
 
tennis_ocd said:
...Edit: Just read entire article and note that the world No. 1 didn't/doesn't run around BH while the No. 2 did/does ;)
Click to expand...

The loser of the match was UNABLE to runaround, because the opponent was simply hitting too good. That's exactly the point. When you're in a winning position, you should be running around the BHs. Even Djoker does that when he's winning, even though he's got one of the best BHs in the business.
 
I/O FH is my biggest shot and I don't run around it enough.

I will say that my DTL backhand has become rather accurate and effective because that is the window I see a lot in matches.
 
Finally beat my Nadal-like tormentor tonight! The key was improving my BH as a rally shot. Much more efficient than running around it a ton, but it took a lot of work to improve over the past months.
 
spinovic said:
It's not about having a FH like Federer. It is about the forehand being the stronger shot. It doesn't matter who you are.

Match strategy doesn't revolve around getting to or setting up the backhand..
Click to expand...

Also it helps to draw errors as they try to get to the Bh in many cases.
 
beltsman said:
Finally beat my Nadal-like tormentor tonight! The key was improving my BH as a rally shot. Much more efficient than running around it a ton, but it took a lot of work to improve over the past months.
Click to expand...

I have a pretty good BH as a rally shot, but when he takes his HUGE FH and hits it at my BH, he always wins those exchanges. So that's why I tried to run around it.

This is not about having a good BH, it's about putting yourself in position to hit your best shot.
 
Or can it be a question of first shot tennis, not allowing your opponent to get off his best shot.
If your opponent crush's his best shot at your forehand, are you saying you can instantly turn it into an offensive shot for YOU?
Whether hitting forehands or backhands, it's better to hit YOUR best shot before he can get a chance to hit his.
 
LeeD said:
Or can it be a question of first shot tennis, not allowing your opponent to get off his best shot.
If your opponent crush's his best shot at your forehand, are you saying you can instantly turn it into an offensive shot for YOU?
Whether hitting forehands or backhands, it's better to hit YOUR best shot before he can get a chance to hit his.
Click to expand...

Yes, if he hits his best shot at my FH, I can usually hit a pretty good shot, even a winner. My running FH is one of my favorite shots.
 
That's confidence, good for you.
Me, if my opponent hit's his best shot anywhere in my court, I'm scrambling, lunging, and just fetching for him. Or, I can stand there and admire his shot.
 
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