Finally defeating the waiter's tray serve! Would love some feedback/advice. Video

I’m a beginner/intermediate and I've spent the past year slightly obsessed with getting rid of my waiter’s tray serve and think I’m getting there. What do you think? Here’s a session at the local courts. I’m using a half serve in some and a fuller motion in others, and some are from the service line and some are from the baseline. And I’m not really worrying about leg drive/coil/shoulder over shoulder/adding a lot of power for now. I’m trying for flat serves but many turn into accidental slice serves (which maybe would be decent slice serves) because I have an old bad habit of opening the racquet face early and hitting slice out to the side (very clear if you slow the video down). I use a few different approaches/cues to myself through the course of the video so I’d love to hear which sections seems like they’re working well and which ones are no good.


And here’s a recent session from the backyard for comparison. It’s where the serve finally started coming together--having the racquet swing out a little on the right side of my body on the way up to the ball before going up on edge and pronating like I see in advanced serves.


I was surprised to see that I could do the fuller motion at the courts without going back to my old bad waiter’s tray habits every time. What should I work on? Work on next? Do the shadow swings look okay, too? Any drills or advice?

I was thinking my next moves would be: consolidate coming up on edge instead of opening early, keep the toss closer to my body to avoid slice, hit through the ball a bit more on the full motion, and start to drive the non-dominant arm down a bit more to add pop instead of just bringing it down like a dead fish. Many of the ones at the court weirdly felt like they had less pop than the good ones in the backyard but maybe that was just because they weren’t hitting anything close. I also get kind of obsessed with hitting the back fence at the courts but I’d rather hit slower and get the technique right.

I got really into tennis but then had to lay off for a few years because of bad serve mechanics and a really bad impingement injury, so I’d be curious to hear if there’s any unhealthy shoulder stuff going on here, too. And I’m not trying to DIY all this. I just got set up for some one-on-one lessons but would love to hear what you think, too. Thanks!
 
@saltwatersd1980

What unlocked the full power and consistency potential on the serve for me the other day was the proper use of shoulder over shoulder rotation on all serves except the slice although I could use the same for slice serve, too. This gives you the perfect anatomical position to use max internal shoulder rotation and pronation without impinging your shoulder and also the ability to lean all your weight into the shot. Real game changer!


 
Nice job. Getting there.
How did you manage to improve this?
Thanks! These forums were super helpful. Also:

-The snappywrist training aid that clicks when you flex your wrist.
-Elbow drive drills
-Edge drills
-This video a lot of people on here shared:
-Focusing solely on my elbow. Thinking about driving it up into my field of vision or across my face was really helpful. And letting my hand and forearm just relax and follow. Though I worry about having too small an angle between upper arm and head, leading to impingement.
-Holding the racquet with two fingers and thumb. I'd tried this before but after a lot of work on the other stuff it finally clicked and let the racquet come around on the right before going up on edge.
-Videoing myself and checking it every 3-5 serves to make sure I'm not falling into old habits. The Kinemaster app was really helpful for checking frame by frame on the court.
-Hanging a tennis ball from the rafters in my garage so I could shadow slowly without worrying about the toss.

Hopefully those are helpful to other folks!
 
@saltwatersd1980

What unlocked the full power and consistency potential on the serve for me the other day was the proper use of shoulder over shoulder rotation on all serves except the slice although I could use the same for slice serve, too. This gives you the perfect anatomical position to use max internal shoulder rotation and pronation without impinging your shoulder and also the ability to lean all your weight into the shot. Real game changer!


Sounds awesome! I was thinking that's my next step once I can super consistently come up on edge. Any good videos or drills? Do you see me doing any decent shoulder over shoulder stuff in these vids so I can know what to try to repeat and emphasize?
 
Sounds awesome! I was thinking that's my next step once I can super consistently come up on edge. Any good videos or drills? Do you see me doing any decent shoulder over shoulder stuff in these vids so I can know what to try to repeat and emphasize?
Watched again. I think you’re doing it to some degree. What I noticed is we all tend to use mostly vertical axis rotation because it’s easier. You need to focus consciously to avoid doing any of that and try to stay completely sideways while throwing the racket up. You will still open in the end because it has to happen but that’s the way to really nail it.
 
I guess when you do it properly your chest at contact would point towards the right net post. If done poorly it will point the net. A checkpoint maybe.
This has been discussed at length in another thread on here where images were shown at contact. That thread demonstrated that while Fed, Sampras, and JJ Wolf (to name 3) are very sideways at contact, a significant number of professional males are nearly parallel with their shoulders and do not do this. So the shoulders pointing to the net post is not a good checkpoint for some elite servers. The back hip (right hip for a rightie) is a different story and stays back in all instances.
 
This has been discussed at length in another thread on here where images were shown at contact. That thread demonstrated that while Fed, Sampras, and JJ Wolf (to name 3) are very sideways at contact, a significant number of professional males are nearly parallel with their shoulders and do not do this. So the shoulders pointing to the net post is not a good checkpoint for some elite servers. The back hip (right hip for a rightie) is a different story and stays back in all instances.
I wonder what majority of them do. Anyway never mind. I’m watching Tiafoe at the moment and noticed his serve shoulder tilt is even worse than low level rec player’s! :D
 
I wonder what majority of them do. Anyway never mind. I’m watching Tiafoe at the moment and noticed his serve shoulder tilt is even worse than low level rec player’s! :D
After this many years why are you still wondering about the serve? 8-B

You still haven't got it down cold? At least in understanding if not doing.

It's been soo sooo many years in tennis.....
 
After this many years why are you still wondering about the serve? 8-B

You still haven't got it down cold? At least in understanding if not doing.

It's been soo sooo many years in tennis.....
At least serve is the least of my concerns. :)
 
Can you all check out a video from today's session? Your video demo was super helpful, Curious!


I think it’s coming together. I had two approaches today and was wondering which one is better. I basically tried two cues. One where I just tried to whip my arm and the racquet almost straight up and over the top like a bull whip, really focusing on the racquet head coming over the top. And a second where I tried to lead with the dominant elbow like a baseball pitch, which led to pulling down the non-dominant elbow a lot. I warmed the baseball pitch version up by shadow swinging almost horizontally like a pitch, then aiming more and more to the sky, then hitting the ball.

You can see the baseball pitch style from :17 to :58 and from 1:04 to 1:22. It seems to have the racquet face open early and lead to a lot of slice as you were saying. It's funny because it "feels" like I'm hitting harder. There does seem to be a ton of shoulder over shoulder action in it though from the torso rotation.

You can see the bullwhip over the top from :58 to 1:04 to and from 1:22 to 1:33 It seems better and had good racquet head speed based on the whooshing sound and seemed a little flatter. I think I stay sideways a little longer on this bullwhip one, too. How's the shoulder over shoulder look? There's much less torso rotation/drive from the non-dom arm pull down but maybe that’s okay. And this bullwhip one seemed well suited to adding leg drive because it’s much more up and down. Does this all sound right? Any other advice? It’s amazing to me that I’m able to hit harder without the waiter’s tray coming back very much. Hallelujah!

In both cases I was struggling to keep my toss over my dominant shoulder instead of out to the side, which made a big difference between flat and slice respectively. My plan for next time is probably to do the bullwhip over the top cue with more consistent toss closer to my body. Sound like a good plan?
 
Can you all check out a video from today's session? Your video demo was super helpful, Curious!


I think it’s coming together. I had two approaches today and was wondering which one is better. I basically tried two cues. One where I just tried to whip my arm and the racquet almost straight up and over the top like a bull whip, really focusing on the racquet head coming over the top. And a second where I tried to lead with the dominant elbow like a baseball pitch, which led to pulling down the non-dominant elbow a lot. I warmed the baseball pitch version up by shadow swinging almost horizontally like a pitch, then aiming more and more to the sky, then hitting the ball.

You can see the baseball pitch style from :17 to :58 and from 1:04 to 1:22. It seems to have the racquet face open early and lead to a lot of slice as you were saying. It's funny because it "feels" like I'm hitting harder. There does seem to be a ton of shoulder over shoulder action in it though from the torso rotation.

You can see the bullwhip over the top from :58 to 1:04 to and from 1:22 to 1:33 It seems better and had good racquet head speed based on the whooshing sound and seemed a little flatter. I think I stay sideways a little longer on this bullwhip one, too. How's the shoulder over shoulder look? There's much less torso rotation/drive from the non-dom arm pull down but maybe that’s okay. And this bullwhip one seemed well suited to adding leg drive because it’s much more up and down. Does this all sound right? Any other advice? It’s amazing to me that I’m able to hit harder without the waiter’s tray coming back very much. Hallelujah!

In both cases I was struggling to keep my toss over my dominant shoulder instead of out to the side, which made a big difference between flat and slice respectively. My plan for next time is probably to do the bullwhip over the top cue with more consistent toss closer to my body. Sound like a good plan?
I believe you’ll have a very good serve in the end mainly because of your good throwing mechanics. (y)
 
As long as you continue to raise your tossing arm after the ball is released (toss arm roughly vertical) and achieve the starting upwards shoulder tilt, and the toss is accurate, the "shoulder over shoulder motion" should naturally happen.

Do not need to think about this.

Just toss it up and achieve that upwards tilt. And then simply go up to contact.

And "shouder-over-over-shoulder" should occur for all serves. Do not see why it should not.
Yes, some players will toss way off to the right and proceed to slice with level shoulders. But that is horrible ill-advised technique.

Always incorporate shoulder over shoulder motion on all serves.
 
with getting rid of my waiter’s tray serve and think I’m getting there

Yes, the half serve can be very useful, as it allows you to focus on the feeling of the drop at the very beginning of the motion...

Did you ever have a problem with shifting the grip from Continental towards forehand during the service motion? That is also a very common error found with Waiters Tray serve.
 
When it comes to your serve its all about muscle memory.

You need to practice with sufficient repetition until it becomes hard wired otherwise you'll revert back
 
Yes, the half serve can be very useful, as it allows you to focus on the feeling of the drop at the very beginning of the motion...

Did you ever have a problem with shifting the grip from Continental towards forehand during the service motion? That is also a very common error found with Waiters Tray serve.

I check pretty carefully on the video and haven't noticed that through the sessions. I tended to keep the continental grip but twist the forearm and shoulder to have a push-y coming up open-faced serve. It wasn't that bad, more of an early opening of the face instead of a full waiter's tray, but if I'm going to spend all this time working on this I might as well build a good foundation.
 
When it comes to your serve its all about muscle memory.

You need to practice with sufficient repetition until it becomes hard wired otherwise you'll revert back

I hear that. I'm at an interesting moment now where I'm finally able to do closer to the proper technique with less and less waiter's tray each time and every session feels like a revelation as all these different cues and tips I've been learning about start to really work well. Now I think it's just a matter of sorting out with cues and movements are best, like which one from the 4/27 video is best (maybe they even correspond to different serves, more spin less spin etc.) so I can pick one to really groove. First session with a pro tomorrow--I'm excited!
 
I check pretty carefully on the video and haven't noticed that through the sessions. I tended to keep the continental grip but twist the forearm and shoulder to have a push-y coming up open-faced serve. It wasn't that bad, more of an early opening of the face instead of a full waiter's tray, but if I'm going to spend all this time working on this I might as well build a good foundation.

On that aspect, it is much easier to simply check your hand on the follow through. Make sure you are ending with the exact same grip you started the motion with.

Here is a student that was shifting his grip during the motion.

 
Thanks, I'll definitely check my clips for that. Love Pat Dougherty and that video! Though I haven't watched it for a while. Here's a short 'best of' serve clips video I put together for the coach tomorrow that shows the two best approaches I have so far he can tell me which is better:


Basically I'm wondering if I should do the flippy/whip over the top style from :05 to : 22 or the hitting through it/driving the elbow more forward and up style from :22 to :34 for flat serves (the latter has more shoulder/trunk rotation). Would love to hear your opinion, and everyone's. Maybe the hitting through it style is better for flatter serves and the flip/whip over the top style is better for giving it more spin to pull down on what is still basically a flat serve?
 
I guess when you do it properly your chest at contact would point towards the right net post. If done poorly it will point the net. A checkpoint maybe.


There is a saying to stay sideways for the kick serve. That is not true. But overhead cameras videos do show chest more sideways is true for the kick serve. But all word descriptions are lacking compared to high speed videos from more than one angle.

I would worry that the Federer picture shown might be from a Federer kick serve. ?
 
Search: Internal Shoulder Rotation Chas

Search: Waiter's Tray Serve Chas

Member: Chas Tennis

All my posts on analyses have videos showing the strokes. Some of the best posts are in the past when I first studied the sub-motion as I found it.

Search: Ellenbecker video Rotator Cuff Injury. For his advice on the upper arm angle to reduce risk of shoulder impingement.

Compare your serve to a ATP server to see the differences.

You should video the shadows at your elbow and compare it to an ATP pro. Requires 240 fps and a very fast shutter speed to catch the shadows.
 
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Search: Internal Shoulder Rotation Chas

Search: Waiter's Tray Serve Chas

Member: Chas Tennis

All my posts on analyses have videos showing the strokes. Some of the best posts are in the past when I first studied the sub-motion as I found it.

Search: Ellenbecker video Rotator Cuff Injury. For his advice on the upper arm angle to reduce risk of shoulder impingement.

Compare your serve to a ATP server to see the differences.

You should video the shadows at your elbow and compare it to an ATP pro. Requires 240 fps and a very fast shutter speed to catch the shadows with little motion blur.
Look at Kyrios elbow display quick Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR)
 
Search: Internal Shoulder Rotation Chas

Search: Waiter's Tray Serve Chas

Member: Chas Tennis

All my posts on analyses have videos showing the strokes. Some of the best posts are in the past when I first studied the sub-motion as I found it.

Search: Ellenbecker video Rotator Cuff Injury. For his advice on the upper arm angle to reduce risk of shoulder impingement.

Compare your serve to a ATP server to see the differences.

You should video the shadows at your elbow and compare it to an ATP pro. Requires 240 fps and a very fast shutter speed to catch the shadows.

Great to hear from you! I've read a lot of them already over the past year and found them super helpful! And I will do the shadow check for sure. Can you check out the best of video above, or the others, and let me know what you think of my motion(s) specifically? I'd be very grateful.
 
Great to hear from you! I've read a lot of them already over the past year and found them super helpful! And I will do the shadow check for sure. Can you check out the best of video above, or the others, and let me know what you think of my motion(s) specifically? I'd be very grateful.
There is a different serve technique where the arm is tilted more to the right and ISR is used and the racket head moves in a more vertical path, is much more open, than what I consider it should be. I have seen that from other servers. You might be doing that? That is not a Waither's Tray if it uses ISR for power but I don't consider it as good. To diagnose that takes good clear camera work, 240 fps, and frame by frame comparisons. Players have mostly not been interested in comparing their own videos to the ATP players or in improving their videos. I am not sure of how much ISR you are doing leading to impact. You seem to do some after impact ISR to display 'fully pronated' racket position but that is after impact, when it does not count. I just posted how to compare stroke for 1HBHs and same instructions apply to the serve.
 
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This is one of his first serves. What do you think?

I have posted overhead camera videos and frames from FYB's Frank Salazar many times that shows his slice, flat and kick serves. These show Frank's body positions very well. His chest is not sideways for the kick serve, it is more sideways than for the slice and flats serves at impact. These are 2007 videos of Frank Salazar. I don't know anything about how Salazar's serves compare to current ATP servers, but at least they are overhead camera views that are perfect for answering certain questions.

Colleges should invest in overhead camera set-ups for tennis training. Free consulting............
 
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Another first serve from deuce court. Where is his chest pointing?



Here is a flat serve and you can see his ISR at his elbow and where his chest is pointing. Depending on when you you take a picture his chest might be pointing in different directions. Watch the chest.
To single frame on Youtube, stop video, go full screen and use the period & comma keys.

This is one of the best videos that I have seen. Twitch like ISR is visible. I consider the serve identified as flat by the racket-ball interaction. There is an option to 'watch the whole video'.

Great reference video for the serve because you can directly see ISR.
 
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There is a different serve technique where the arm is tilted more to the right and ISR is used and the racket head moves in a more vertical path, is much more open, than what I consider it should be. I have seen that from other servers. You might be doing that? That is not a Waither's Tray if it uses ISR for power but I don't consider it as good. To diagnose that takes good clear camera work, 240 fps, and frame by frame comparisons. Players have mostly not been interested in comparing their own videos to the ATP players or in improving their videos. I am not sure of how much ISR you are doing leading to impact. You seem to do some after impact ISR to display 'fully pronated' racket position but that is after impact, when it does not count. I just posted how to compare stroke for 1HBHs and same instructions apply to the serve.
Thanks so much! I'll do some video comparisons to get a sense of where the ISR is happening. I love doing comparisons and find them super helpful. I've been looking for videos where instructors have "mere mortal" but still excellent serves instead of only looking at ATP pros since I figure the former would be more apples to apples with what I should be shooting for. And since I'm not doing a lot of leg drive now I've found some videos from Racquetflex and Intuitive Tennis where they serve without 'launching' which have been really helpful. I've noticed that when they're not doing their full leg drive serve and hitting more slowly they tend to hit a bit more out to the side and open a bit earlier/more. You can see it in the flat serve progressions here, e.g., though I'm still trying to get that slight flip out to the right before coming up on edge and avoid opening early.

 
Nice job. Getting there.
How did you manage to improve this?
imo half the battle of ridding wt, is just the act of practicing doing stuff above my head
i start folks with efh, and let them practice that for a while... then slice with efh, then flat with aussie, then slice with aussie, then flat with conti, then slice with conti...
but that's like 1000's of reps right there... :P
 
imo half the battle of ridding wt, is just the act of practicing doing stuff above my head
i start folks with efh, and let them practice that for a while... then slice with efh, then flat with aussie, then slice with aussie, then flat with conti, then slice with conti...
but that's like 1000's of reps right there... :p

Anybody know a good technically-minded coach or pro in San Diego who's good with serves? It's funny about reps--if I don't check what I'm doing on video every few serves I start falling back into bad habits. I think I really need to watch everything and make sure I'm doing quality motions, especially as I try to consolidate all of this.
 
Thanks so much! I'll do some video comparisons to get a sense of where the ISR is happening. I love doing comparisons and find them super helpful. I've been looking for videos where instructors have "mere mortal" but still excellent serves instead of only looking at ATP pros since I figure the former would be more apples to apples with what I should be shooting for. And since I'm not doing a lot of leg drive now I've found some videos from Racquetflex and Intuitive Tennis where they serve without 'launching' which have been really helpful. I've noticed that when they're not doing their full leg drive serve and hitting more slowly they tend to hit a bit more out to the side and open a bit earlier/more. You can see it in the flat serve progressions here, e.g., though I'm still trying to get that slight flip out to the right before coming up on edge and avoid opening early.

You can estimate the camera frame rate from the time the racket shaft is horizontal to impact. If you count more only 2 or 3 frames for the racket to go from horizontal to impact, the recording frame rate is too slow. I record at 240 fps where a racket head at 100 MPH moves 7.3 inches between frames. Compare that instruction video to a 240 fps recording.
 
You have too much variety in your serving techniques. What is 'your serve' and where did you find the information for it - a video? What words are you using for your sub-motions? What checkpoints?

You seem to be mixing your version of word descriptions of various sub-motions never with any observations of your own in comparison.

Sub-motions can have effective angles and motions or any other ineffective angles and motions.

You should search the posts on the forum on Ellenbecker and his warning about the upper arm angle and it being at too high an angle to the shoulder. Experimenting without any information for guidance is not a way to do it. Nearly all ATP pros have good form following Ellenbecker's recommendation as far as I can tell. So what are you using for your technique? I've seen all sorts of sub-motions in your videos.

Describe in words or find a model video recorded at 240 fps that shows the serve you are aiming for. Don't keep trying random stuff.

I think of random sub-motions all mixed together as the Frankenstein Serve.
 
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Thanks, I'll definitely check my clips for that. Love Pat Dougherty and that video! Though I haven't watched it for a while. Here's a short 'best of' serve clips video I put together for the coach tomorrow that shows the two best approaches I have so far he can tell me which is better:


Basically I'm wondering if I should do the flippy/whip over the top style from :05 to : 22 or the hitting through it/driving the elbow more forward and up style from :22 to :34 for flat serves (the latter has more shoulder/trunk rotation). Would love to hear your opinion, and everyone's. Maybe the hitting through it style is better for flatter serves and the flip/whip over the top style is better for giving it more spin to pull down on what is still basically a flat serve?


4 sec - This looks like a technique where the racket head is sent to the ball with an angle on it, contacts the ball side with passing to right and puts spin on the ball. Slice serve results. There is no effective ISR to speed up the racket head. For some reason, the racket shaft does not rotate to the left from the ISR. ? I don't know why it does not. The elbow should be near straight or straight when ISR is working. You can get all of the proper angles during a single comparison to your model server. Find slice, flat and kick serve examples and when you are attempting each serve. I have each serve types in my Youtubes videos Chas Tennis Youtube. I recommend Anatoly Antipin Youtube with composite videos of tennis strokes.

7 sec - This looks like your technique where your arm is lower to the right and you seem to do ISR for racket head speed. But your racket faces half to the sky and not 'edge on to the ball' at the Big L Position like an ATP serve. Again, looking at a singe ATP serve would show you these differences. You are mixing sub-motions together = a Frankenstein serve.

9 sec- this is a Frankenstein serve. Wrist grip looks weird. Racket face faces the sky. Again a single ATP serve of the type you are attempting will show you many, many differences.

That is 9 seconds of a 1:34 video. That is enough time for me.


35 sec - (one more serve clip) ISR used but no racket head speed developed. OP does not understand that to develop racket head speed from ISR, the racket head has to be a distance out from the rotation axis. It's not. The distance out comes from the angle between the forearm and racket shaft. Arm near straight. There hardly is any distance out = no racket head speed from ISR. All seen in any ATP serve video.......

If you should ignore what the ATP videos show you and do the flawed technique that Ellenbecker warns against, you increase your risk of impinging your shoulder.

When you get video advice on the forum, ask what frames in your video show what. And specifically, what technique the advice applies to. ATP technique, a specific server, Raonic, etc, Rec serve technique #381, 3.5 serve A technique. I only know how to compare to techniques and sub-motions that I see in the ATP. Sub-motions that I see in the ATP.... Is there any other way being used?

For your next Frankenstein serve, try only sub-motions seen in ATP serves.
Young-Frankenstein-featured_211214_163616.jpg
 
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4 sec - This looks like a technique where the racket head is sent to the ball with an angle on it, contacts the ball side with passing to right and puts spin on the ball. Slice serve results. There is no effective ISR to speed up the racket head. For some reason, the racket shaft does not rotate to the left from the ISR. ? I don't know why it does not. The elbow should be near straight or straight when ISR is working. You can get all of the proper angles during a single comparison to your model server. Find slice, flat and kick serve examples and when you are attempting each serve. I have each serve types in my Youtubes videos Chas Tennis Youtube. I recommend Anatoly Antipin Youtube with composite videos of tennis strokes.

7 sec - This looks like your technique where your arm is lower to the right and you seem to do ISR for racket head speed. But your racket faces half to the sky and not 'edge on to the ball' at the Big L Position like an ATP serve. Again, looking at a singe ATP serve would show you these differences. You are mixing sub-motions together = a Frankenstein serve.

9 sec- this is a Frankenstein serve. Wrist grip looks weird. Racket face faces the sky. Again a single ATP serve of the type you are attempting will show you many, many differences.

That is 9 seconds of a 1:34 video. That is enough time for me.


35 sec - (one more serve clip) ISR used but no racket head speed developed. OP does not understand that to develop racket head speed from ISR, the racket head has to be a distance out from the rotation axis. It's not. The distance out comes from the angle between the forearm and racket shaft. Arm near straight. There hardly is any distance out = no racket head speed from ISR. All seen in any ATP serve video.......

If you should ignore what the ATP videos show you and do the flawed technique that Ellenbecker warns against, you increase your risk of impinging your shoulder.

When you get video advice on the forum, ask what frames in your video show what. And specifically, what technique the advice applies to. ATP technique, a specific server, Raonic, etc, Rec serve technique #381, 3.5 serve A technique. I only know how to compare to techniques and sub-motions that I see in the ATP. Sub-motions that I see in the ATP.... Is there any other way being used?

For your next Frankenstein serve, try only sub-motions seen in ATP serves.
Young-Frankenstein-featured_211214_163616.jpg

Thanks so much for digging in. Exactly the kind of detail and straight talk I was looking for. I'm using one of Racquetflex's serve courses. I'm trying really hard to emulate the advanced serve but of course it's very challenging. If I could copy the ATP serve and proper angles and sub-motions by sheer force of will I definitely would! Different mental cues and approaches have been really helpful in getting away from bad habits and closer to the serve I'm trying to emulate, but they do lead to some variety. The fact that some of these have ISR and aren't all really bad waiter's tray serves is a big win for me! I'm looking for advice on which of these serves seems the most successful so I can continue with that cue/approach as I learn.

Take a look at my serve at :25 (which I think might be the best one in this video) and then at the Racquetflex guys' serves in this video at 8:58 (no leg drive) and 9:55 (slow-mo, one on the right).
The serve course videos I have from them have higher frame rates/better quality and go through all the motions in detail but they're not on youtube.

Let me know what you think. I think my serve at :25 is basically the one I'll try to build to. Here's a still from that serve showing what I think is a decent forearm/racquet angle and the upper arm shoulder angle looks okay to me. Here's the edge angle on the way up, too. Seems pretty on edge. The racquetflex guys definitely get their torso more sideways and accordingly the ball more overhead and flip the racquet out to the right before it comes up on edge more, but they're hitting much, much faster. I'll work toward that. I think I need a higher toss too and need to work on it being more at 12 or 1 o clock. Let me know what you think and thanks again.


 
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Thanks so much for digging in. Exactly the kind of detail and straight talk I was looking for. I'm using one of Racquetflex's serve courses. I'm trying really hard to emulate the advanced serve but of course it's very challenging. If I could copy the ATP serve and proper angles and sub-motions by sheer force of will I definitely would! Different mental cues and approaches have been really helpful in getting away from bad habits and closer to the serve I'm trying to emulate, but they do lead to some variety. The fact that some of these have ISR and aren't all really bad waiter's tray serves is a big win for me! I'm looking for advice on which of these serves seems the most successful so I can continue with that cue/approach as I learn.

Take a look at my serve at :25 (which I think might be the best one in this video) and then at the Racquetflex guys' serves in this video at 8:58 (no leg drive) and 9:55 (slow-mo, one on the right).
The serve course videos I have from them have higher frame rates/better quality and go through all the motions in detail but they're not on youtube.

Let me know what you think. I think my serve at :25 is basically the one I'll try to build to. Here's a still from that serve showing what I think is a decent forearm/racquet angle and the upper arm shoulder angle looks okay to me. Here's the edge angle on the way up, too. Seems pretty on edge. The racquetflex guys definitely get their torso more sideways and accordingly the ball more overhead and flip the racquet out to the right before it comes up on edge more, but they're hitting much, much faster. I'll work toward that. I think I need a higher toss too and need to work on it being more at 12 or 1 o clock. Let me know what you think and thanks again.


The toss is too far to the Right in these images. It might be ok for an extreme (slice) novelty serve every once in a great while. But you’ll never get a kick serve or any topspin-slice serve with such a toss.

A contact point in front of your Right shoulder would be better — or a toss somewhere between 12 and 1 o’clock — particularly for 1st serves.

Your contact at 0:21 doesn’t look quite as extreme but even this is too far to the R for your standard serve. Your R arm can be angled to the R somewhat — but not this much. Ok to have the R elbow a bit above the shoulder tilt line at contact — but not too much.

Note also that you do not want the racket vertical at contact. It should be angled somewhat to the Left.

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The toss is too far to the Right in these images. It might be ok for an extreme (slice) novelty serve every once in a great while. But you’ll never get a kick serve or any topspin-slice serve with such a toss.

A contact point in front of your Right shoulder would be better — or a toss somewhere between 12 and 1 o’clock — particularly for 1st serves.

Your contact at 0:21 doesn’t look quite as extreme but even this is too far to the R for your standard serve. Your R arm can be angled to the R somewhat — but not this much. Ok to have the R elbow a bit above the shoulder tilt line at contact — but not too much.

Note also that you do not want the racket vertical at contact. It should be angled somewhat to the Left.

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Thanks so much for taking a look--extremely helpful! I think my racquet face opening early up was a combo of lingering bad waiter's tray habits and my habit of tossing the ball out to the right. The rightward toss led me to open early as I chased it. I'm working on the toss placement now, as well as a little bit of knee bend which I think should help incline the torso to the left. Hopefully that combined with a properly placed toss will help with the angles at contact. And am I right in thinking that a toss that ends up at 12 or 1 at contact (for a righty like me) needs to be even more leftward than I think to account for the fact that the head and shoulders move to the left due to the torso inclination between the toss and contact?
 
I have been doing this for some years, let's do it my way. Search for a Youtube of any ATP serve from a similar camera angle from behind the server. A compilation of ATP serves is usually very good. (Searching takes my time for your serve and I am trying to shift that time to forum posters and show them how to do it.)

Post this picture below the Youtube with ATP serve.
zRSwRJNl.jpg
 
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To single frame on Youtube, use the period & comma keys.

Go to impact at 4 sec
Go to impact at 25 sec

Compare closest frame to impact at 4 sec to the same at 25 sec.

To prevent a video from starting when selected, hold down the ctrl key & alt key and press the left mouse click to select video.

You can now compare all frames and times.

If you don't understand, please ask a question.
 
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Thanks so much for taking a look--extremely helpful! I think my racquet face opening early up was a combo of lingering bad waiter's tray habits and my habit of tossing the ball out to the right. The rightward toss led me to open early as I chased it. I'm working on the toss placement now, as well as a little bit of knee bend which I think should help incline the torso to the left. Hopefully that combined with a properly placed toss will help with the angles at contact. And am I right in thinking that a toss that ends up at 12 or 1 at contact (for a righty like me) needs to be even more leftward than I think to account for the fact that the head and shoulders move to the left due to the torso inclination between the toss and contact?
ball-tosses-serves.jpg


Yeah, you might have to toss a bit more to the Left than you might expect. The head does move to the Left from its original position at the beginning & the trophy phase. This is becuz your Right shoulder is coming somewhat over the top for the shoulder-over-shoulder (cartwheel) action. So the head moves to the Left to accommodate the R shoulder.

For a Flat serve or a Slice (or Topspin-Slice), the toss can be approx in the same place. But some will toss further to the R for more sidespin. The Kick or Topspin serve will usually have the toss more to the Left — perhaps in front of the Left ear. This toss sb a bit forward of the baseline — but not quite as far forward as it would be for a Flat or Slice serve.
 
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