Finally Faced a True Pusher

D

davidtennis123

Semi-Pro
It's so funny, on this forum and on reddit I have been hearing about the "pusher" for years. I have been called a "dinker" and a "moonballer" myself, but I never really felt like I was much of a pusher and I never faced someone who was like the pushers described on the internet. Yesterday, I played the internet version of the pusher for the first time.

Unconventional groundstrokes (although it could have been because he was saying he was just getting back into the sport), very consistent where he would rarely pressure me, but was very fast and would consistently drop the in the center of the court and force me, a more defensive player, to take control of the points.

I won easily, but I just couldn't help but chuckle to myself about how I was finally facing the version of the pusher that I read about so much on the internet and how the advice given on the internet (staying patient and not going for too much, waiting for your opportunity to attack, etc.) really was important in this match.
 
How many years have you played the sport? What is your level? You are bound to run into these players eventually. That said, at a higher level such as 4.5+, there are not that many true pushers who exist. I would guess true pushers are pretty much non existent at 5.0 and above.
 
jhick said:
How many years have you played the sport? What is your level? You are bound to run into these players eventually. That said, at a higher level such as 4.5+, there are not that many true pushers who exist. I would guess true pushers are pretty much non existent at 5.0 and above.
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I've been a 4.0 for many years, been playing tennis probably 10-15 years, don't really remember when I started. I've definitely played pushers in the past, but not so much the stereotypical version that you hear about on this site and reddit.

I still respect the game, though, and if I wasn't mentally locked in, maybe I would have been less patient and played into his hands.
 
Thanks for posting that, it looks like they're getting some good aerobic exercise. It would probably be more fun than jogging since you get to use your upper body too and groove your hand-eye coordination. Maybe I wouldn't want to buy a ticket to watch it though.
 
megamind said:
Meet Gilles. Gilles Simon.
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Yes Pushing as a style exists at all levels, it just looks different. But it's predicated on taking only very low risk shots and letting your opponent make the error. Most higher level players evolve into Defensive counter punchers (Djokovic, Nadal, Murray) or attackers (Federer, Shapovalov, Kyrgios). But a few pusher styles sneak through.
 
jhick said:
Sorry Gilles Simon is not a pusher. Counter puncher would be accurate. Pushing would get you demolished at that level. Go to a pro tournament sometime to see how hard professionals hit.
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He had at least 4 short ball opportunities to hit a winner in that rally and every time hit the safe CC shot. That's pushing. Now maybe he does counterpunch every now and then but whenever I watch him he plays defensive 99% of the time.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
He had at least 4 short ball opportunities to hit a winner in that rally and every time hit the safe CC shot. That's pushing. Now maybe he does counterpunch every now and then but whenever I watch him he plays defensive 99% of the time.
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I guess it's a matter of semantics then. Besides playing defensive, I consider a typical pusher to hit with very little pace, thus why it is called pushing (you push the ball over the net as opposed to taking a full swing at it). One can simply not get away with that tactic at high level tennis unless they are superhuman and can cover the court like pong (aka a backboard).
 
My def of a pusher is a player who has NO strokes but great hand-eye and wheels. No style points in tennis! Since 80% of points are made on opponent's errors and not winners, pushers are smart--they will be getting the maximum benefit of their court time by keeping the ball in play for the exercise--that's what we're all here for isn't it?
 
jhick said:
Sorry Gilles Simon is not a pusher. Counter puncher would be accurate. Pushing would get you demolished at that level. Go to a pro tournament sometime to see how hard professionals hit.
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He is an ATP pusher, he doesn’t hit the ball hard for a top 50 ATP player.
Calling him a counter puncher is too kind, MuryGOAT is a counterpuncher

TBH, I actually enjoyed watching Peak Simon beat Fedr, but he used to play a tad more aggressive, these days he isn’t able to muster the same amount of power I guess
 
megamind said:
He is an ATP pusher, he doesn’t hit the ball hard for a top 50 ATP player.
Calling him a counter puncher is too kind, MuryGOAT is a counterpuncher

TBH, I actually enjoyed watching Peak Simon beat Fedr, but he used to play a tad more aggressive, these days he isn’t able to muster the same amount of power I guess
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ATP pusher sounds like an oxymoron description to me.
 
My definition is someone who plays extremely high % tennis [not just Wardlawian directionals but also not very aggressive], hitting safe shots to the fat part of the court, and counting on his opponent to make the first mistake. He does not like increasing risk, even if it means the corresponding reward is potentially even more.

He does not have "proper" form, probably hits mostly flat and slice, since they are more reliable than TS, which requires a more aggressive cut at the ball.

Why does the house have an advantage in Blackjack? Because the player has to draw first. Therefore, the player will bust a certain % of the time and the house didn't have to do anything to win. If you kept the rules the same but forced the house to go first, the advantage would shift to the player.

This is how many pushers win. Unlike BJ, they do have to hit the ball but they use the most conservative shot to keep themselves in the point, whereas the opponent is using more aggressive/riskier shots and naturally will make more errors.

At a certain point, the balance of power shifts to the non-pusher who has developed consistent weapons.
 
jhick said:
I guess it's a matter of semantics then. Besides playing defensive, I consider a typical pusher to hit with very little pace, thus why it is called pushing (you push the ball over the net as opposed to taking a full swing at it). One can simply not get away with that tactic at high level tennis unless they are superhuman and can cover the court like pong (aka a backboard).
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on a more serious note though, pushing is relative.
my hardest shot might be considered pushing by Rafa standard. So if we ever play, he might as well say that this player never goes for attempts of winner shots, only pure defense shots, and I wonder why so many are sprayed

having this in mind, relative to top 10 / top 20, Simon is probably a pusher
 
jhick said:
Kind of. But even they couldn't get away with pushing the ball over the net.
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they do.
of course Novak and Rafa has top level attacking game, and when they have an easy sitter then they go for winners.
but otherwise, they go for these insane rallies, with zero risk, waiting till the opponent will cough a mistake or an easy sitter.

watch Rafael highlights, they will be full of getting the ball from some insane defensive positions.
he probably could easily compete with Usain Bolt in sprint speed.
and when the opponent is finally tired of trying to hit past Nadal, then he delivers his mercy shot.
 
I have occasionally run into a pusher at the 4.5 level, though they are rare. At 5.0, I have not run into a true pusher, at least not a player who doesn't at least hit with some pace. There are really smart players that can place the ball on a dime, but their strokes aren't what I'd consider pusher strokes.
 
blablavla said:
on a more serious note though, pushing is relative.
my hardest shot might be considered pushing by Rafa standard.
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One difference is effort: the pusher is trying not to hit the ball hard and aggressively. He could hit much harder if he wanted to but he chooses not to.

But if he's hitting as hard as he can and it still isn't enough to bother me, that's not a pusher in my book.
 
Shaolin said:
It's all relative.

Compared to other pros he is a pusher. Compared to most recreational players he has a Fernando Gonzales forehand, Safin backhand and Roddick serve.
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Again, I would consider Simon and other pros with similar styles to be counterpunchers. Counterpunchers generally play defensive but hit with pace and are able to hit winners when the opportunity presents itself. I think Simon (and players like him) rely on their endurance, speed, and court position and are better at outlasting their opponents when they win matches. But it's not like these guys never hit winners.

True pushers are almost incapable of hitting winners and purposely take pace off the ball in order to lure their opponents into making mistakes. Of course they live with the fact that they have to deal with having winners hit against them. But they hope the player will self destruct and are not able to hit winners consistently.

I would argue ATP players (all the way down to 5.0) do not face this style of tennis. They are just too good at hitting winners and too consistent. In the end we are just arguing semantics of the word pusher.
 
jhick said:
I guess it's a matter of semantics then. Besides playing defensive, I consider a typical pusher to hit with very little pace, thus why it is called pushing (you push the ball over the net as opposed to taking a full swing at it). One can simply not get away with that tactic at high level tennis unless they are superhuman and can cover the court like pong (aka a backboard).
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There's the pusher and the pusher style. I agree that the classic pusher is someone that just pushes the ball over. But they do it to be safe and not take risk. That leads to the pusher style which is one of near pathologic caution combined with consistency. That permeates everywhere along the tennis spectrum. The skills to achieve this style need to improve as the levels go up, but the style remains because it can work since UE's are a huge part of the game.

jhick said:
True pushers are almost incapable of hitting winners and purposely take pace off the ball in order to lure their opponents into making mistakes. Of course they live with the fact that they have to deal with having winners hit against them. But they hope the player will self destruct and are not able to hit winners consistently.
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I disagree. I think a pusher can hit winners. Anyone can hit the ball hard. It's just that they recognize that the risk that comes with that stroke isn't worth it since they can win a point by making you go for a winner and missing. At the pro level if you can keep the opponent deep and moving, you can still win with this style. Some of the worlds best players are riffing on the pusher style by being very defensive through most of the point but then attacking at the right opportunity. A baseline counterpuncher is essentially the more highly evolved pusher. It is the dominant style on the tour for a reason. Defend, defend, defend then attack when you see a high leverage opportunity.

Player's like Simon and Wozniaki can probably hit winners more often than they do, but they will only do it if the stars align so that it's a near perfect opportunity. Most 3.5 pushers I know will also hit a winner when it's perfectly set up for them.
 
jhick said:
True pushers are almost incapable of hitting winners and purposely take pace off the ball in order to lure their opponents into making mistakes.
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I think this is key. Pushers can certainly hit winners but they are way less likely to attempt them because they dislike the increased risk more than they like the potential winner. The safe bet for them is to play mostly non-aggressive shots and let the opponent make the error, which statistics prove them out over and over again.
 
blablavla said:
on a more serious note though, pushing is relative.
my hardest shot might be considered pushing by Rafa standard. So if we ever play, he might as well say that this player never goes for attempts of winner shots, only pure defense shots, and I wonder why so many are sprayed

having this in mind, relative to top 10 / top 20, Simon is probably a pusher
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On a slightly different tangent - but
jhick said:
So since we all would lose to Gilles Simon, I guess all of our games need an uplift. ;)
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Yes...and while they're now arguing over how hard Simon hits, there is NOBODY on the ATP tour, who couldn't walk onto court with any of you tomorrow, and decide: I'm only going to plop the ball over at 40 or 50 mph in the center of the court with mild spin (unless forced to pass), and I'll roll in my 2nd serve all the time at 50% power, and still beat every single one of you love and love.

Heh....I also remember a guy who was practice partner of Jim Courier for a week and played satellites at 16 (but never went pro), telling me he could win the club championship by only hitting 3 balls down the middle on every point. He promised if the point wasn't over, or he didn't have a short ball by the 3rd shot, he'd just give the guy the point. However, he promised to hit it blisteringly hard (even his countries Davis Cup captain and Courier were impressed by his power) and heavy ((I'll knock it (the racquet) right out of their hands") for those three balls. I'd hit with him and I agreed he was right.... lol. Though the reality is he'd have won almost every point on his serve and return alone.
 
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encylopedia said:
Heh....I also remember a guy who was practice partner of Jim Courier for a week and played satellites at 16 (but never went pro), telling me he could win the club championship by only hitting 3 balls down the middle on every point. He promised if the point wasn't over, or he didn't have a short ball by the 3rd shot, he'd just give the guy the point. However, he promised to hit it blisteringly hard (even his countries Davis Cup captain and Courier were impressed by his power) and heavy ((I'll knock it (the racquet) right out of their hands") for those three balls. I'd hit with him and I agreed he was right.... lol. Though the reality is he'd have won almost every point on his serve and return alone.
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About 10 years ago we had a club championship that ended up being between a former college player and a guy that used to play some minor Futures types tournaments. Both in their early 40's at the time and could still hammer serves but their knees were shot. There were 4 rallies in the entire match. It was like Isner playing Raonic.

I've had a chance to play one of those guys and I can't ever get a bead on his serve. He throws wicked kickers at you (to be "nice") but if you start getting them back, he'll bring out the heat. And if you can get the heater back, he'll disguise his kicker and slice serves so you can't read which is coming. I've taken a serve or two right into my chest by reading it wrong.

Pros (and semi pros) make fools of us mere mortals.

encylopedia said:
Yes...and while they're now arguing over how hard Simon hits, there is NOBODY on the ATP tour, who couldn't walk onto court with any of you tomorrow, and decide: I'm only going to plop the ball over at 40 or 50 mph in the center of the court with mild spin (unless forced to pass), and I'll roll in my 2nd serve all the time at 50% power, and still beat every single one of you love and love
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Not only would I lose double bagel to Gilles Simon, I would also lose double bagel to Caroline Wozniaki and the Most Exhausting Player
 
megamind said:
Meet Gilles. Gilles Simon.

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He is not a pusher, at this level any pro can hit the style you all see on TV, Simone just choose this strategy to be more safe. He is very smart and very strong to be able to play this strategy out. If you really try to do this yourself, you will notice the amount of footwork, core strength needed to be able to hit like 5-6+ rallies like this with very precise, consistent strokes while being stable. Most players who play fast points that you all seems to love are probably not used to playing long rallies in a match since they might not be this precise, consistent, and with great stamina. For Simon, he is playing a game that is more of a neutralizing playstyle without taking huge risks. He is looking for small openings from the opponent and any tiny mistakes made will mean the end of the point to their opponent.

Also Simon might not be hitting 71 shot rally on every point, that is beyond human level skillset.
 
Moveforwardalways said:
If every rec player would copy Simon’s backhand technique (or Adrian Mannarino’s), the world would be a better place. Such a simple and effective stroke.
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True, but it is not easy to copy, otherwise we would! That said, it looks like his left hand is dominant, yes?
So simple looking, efficient, repeatable.
 
Mongolmike said:
True, but it is not easy to copy, otherwise we would! That said, it looks like his left hand is dominant, yes?
So simple looking, efficient, repeatable.
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You don't have to copy anyone. Just develop your own stroke production. You can't get this on the Net, you must be on the court.

Egads!

So easy.

J
 
Who cares how Simon is categorized by his fellow pros. He attained a career high ranking inside the top 10. So if his fellow pros are complaining ( which I am sure they are not), they are no different than the rec losers here who come and rant after losing to a so called pusher.
 
Does anyone in the pro ranks even use the word “pusher”. Seems like a dumb categorization that rec level folks came up with and seems to be unique to rec level tennis jocks. In most sports there are defensive amd attacking styles of play. I have never seen a negative connotation associated with a high level player or team playing a predominantly defensive style.

Lots of HS and even college powerhouse teams are built on running and defense than throwing the ball. No one has ever docked any points off their legacies for that.
 
mcs1970 said:
Does anyone in the pro ranks even use the word “pusher”.
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I've seen video of Jimmy Connors calling Ivan Lendl a pusher. So yes pros do use the word. And why wouldn't they if they are playing someone that plays the safe shot 99.999% of the time?

I guess it still comes down to whether you view "pushing" as a type of stroke or as a style of play. I think most tennis players of all levels use the term so they likely are referring to a style of play that is totally safe and defensive.
 
Jake Speeed said:
Many times an accomplished player, will use just enough "effort" to win the match.

The "effort" increases as the player's ability increases.
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Actually I can put myself in this category, as I sometimes lack a killer instinct to go play with more authority. It's also injury related as I have a non operated torn ACL, and it's always in my mind to minimize the impact on this knee, thus playing with less intensity than required.
However, this "just enough" mentality can also put yourself in a situation to loose a match you shouldn't loose, it has happened a lot to me lately against lesser opposition. But I do appreciate the mental aspect of playing with your opponent weaknesses, making him do an error.
 
ChrisG said:
Actually I can put myself in this category, as I sometimes lack a killer instinct to go play with more authority. It's also injury related as I have a non operated torn ACL, and it's always in my mind to minimize the impact on this knee, thus playing with less intensity than required.
However, this "just enough" mentality can also put yourself in a situation to loose a match you shouldn't loose, it has happened a lot to me lately against lesser opposition. But I do appreciate the mental aspect of playing with your opponent weaknesses, making him do an error.
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Always play above the level of the other player. If you can't, you might loose the match.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I've seen video of Jimmy Connors calling Ivan Lendl a pusher. So yes pros do use the word. And why wouldn't they if they are playing someone that plays the safe shot 99.999% of the time?

I guess it still comes down to whether you view "pushing" as a type of stroke or as a style of play. I think most tennis players of all levels use the term so they likely are referring to a style of play that is totally safe and defensive.
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Lendl was a harder hitter than Connors.If safe shots take you to top 10 in the world then many rec players would be in the top 10. Many pros who struggle to make ends meet financially would have emulated that too.

I see that term as a term used by losers, figuratively and literally. If your attacking style is not good enough to beat a defensive style it means your attacking style was not good enough to bother your opponent. It is like a defensive end criticizing a qb for making great throws only because the defensive end was not able to pressure him.
 
Yeah no it's not relative. Pushers are pretty well understood because we all can visualise the kind of player that is, and past a certain level the term is a straight-up insult precisely because that kind of player cannot exist beyond said level. Nobody other than the saltiest tennis fans first think of the likes of Simon, Murray, Monfils, or Nadal when they hear the term "pusher", as opposed to when they hear the term "S&Ver" or "baseline basher".

You can't say that pushers exist at the ATP level because relative to other ATP players they are more defensive and/or lack power, because we already have a term for that and that is a "grinder" and that term is not as loaded with emotion as the term "pusher" is (which incidentally is grounds for why I think the term shouldn't be used to describe pros in general).

Sorry, but "relative" just isn't a strong argument. Compared to Almagro, Nadal ventures to the net quite a bit, yet we don't go around classifying Nadal as an all-courter. Federer hits more aces than Nadal but no self-respecting tennis fan genuinely classifies Federer a servebot. The whole premise behind a pusher is that it is a type of player who feeds you balls that pose no threat to his opponent whatsoever (or in many if not most cases, absolute sitters that the opponent should be able to put away quite easily) and relies on the opponents' (often technical) limitations to win by default. No professional grinder on tour plays that style consisting of bunting no-pace, no-spin rally ball up the middle inviting his opponent to put the ball away too aggressively and miss. Yes, Simon plays safe shots and observes Wardlaw's directionals, but if that qualifies a player as a pusher then all of these guys should be pushers because they all play safe tennis most of the time.

Then you consider the intent behind the word. Connors once in anger called Lendl a pusher. Think about that for a second--if pushing genuinely exists at the pro level then it's a legitimate style of play, so how's that an insult (I recognise he did use some 'colourful' language leading up to the term "pusher" but it's clear "pusher" was intended as an insult as well)? That's the equivalent losing to Mischa Zverev and calling him a "****ing serve and volleyer".
 
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