Finally Faced a True Pusher

[blablavla]

Does anyone in the pro ranks even use the word “pusher”. Seems like a dumb categorization that rec level folks came up with and seems to be unique to rec level tennis jocks. In most sports there are defensive amd attacking styles of play. I have never seen a negative connotation associated with a high level player or team playing a predominantly defensive style.

Lots of HS and even college powerhouse teams are built on running and defense than throwing the ball. No one has ever docked any points off their legacies for that.

you surely don't follow the football in Europe
while some people like the tactical satisfaction of defense, in particularly the famous Italian Catenaccio, if you look at fan bases, teams with attacking style have more fans and followers
and then you of course have complaints from everyone, players, coaches, fans whenever a Catenaccio style team wins any major trophy

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

you surely don't follow the football in Europe
while some people like the tactical satisfaction of defense, in particularly the famous Italian Catenaccio, if you look at fan bases, teams with attacking style have more fans and followers
and then you of course have complaints from everyone, players, coaches, fans whenever a Catenaccio style team wins any major trophy

The difference is that in futbol, you can't score by simply kicking the ball back to the opponent's side of the field. At some point, even if only once, the defensive team has to attack.

Tennis pushers could go an entire match without hitting a single winner or even an aggressive shot.

But your point is taken: that's why there are more highlight reels of Paire than Ferrer.

 

[blablavla]

The difference is that in futbol, you can't score by simply kicking the ball back to the opponent's side of the field. At some point, even if only once, the defensive team has to attack.

Tennis pushers could go an entire match without hitting a single winner or even an aggressive shot.

But your point is taken: that's why there are more highlight reels of Paire than Ferrer.

you can win at penalty shoot-out, and this actually was the strategy of some teams that won major trophies.

or you can hit the ball to the opponent side, and launch 1 or 2 players hoping that they somehow score 1 goal during the fixture.
if we talk club fixtures, in play-offs those are 2 matches.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

Actually I can put myself in this category, as I sometimes lack a killer instinct to go play with more authority.

Avatar checks.

 

[Slowtwitcher]

you surely don't follow the football in Europe
while some people like the tactical satisfaction of defense, in particularly the famous Italian Catenaccio, if you look at fan bases, teams with attacking style have more fans and followers
and then you of course have complaints from everyone, players, coaches, fans whenever a Catenaccio style team wins any major trophy

I think that's changing in some way. Mourinho is an extremely successful manager playing a very defensive, non-possession style. Fans are ok with it as long as it wins. Football is essentially a defensive game anyway.

 

[Gazelle]

Meet Gilles. Gilles Simon.

Look at the depth on each shot, hardly a short ball! No opportunity to attack. This is peak level tennis.

 

[ChrisG]

Look at the depth on each shot, hardly a short ball! No opportunity to attack. This is peak level tennis.

Tbh There are a few balls that should have been attacked, but after few shots in this kind of rally, you enter in safe mode telling yourself you’re gone too far to do a stupid error so you play more conservative

 

[ChaelAZ]

Sorry Gilles Simon is not a pusher. Counter puncher would be accurate. Pushing would get you demolished at that level. Go to a pro tournament sometime to see how hard professionals hit.

I agree with you in that most people equate ultimate speed of a shot, or more the perception of speed of a shot in a video, as the guide for pushing.

The concept of what constitutes pushing is always interesting to me. Do a search for "pusher" here and going back MANY years you'll see all those discussion that come up.If you search here you will see TONS of talk about all the WTA players being pushers, but again I think it is just most people are stuck believing they don't look like they are hitting hard so it is pushing, where the reality is they might be a consistent, still heavy ball hitting, moderate pace baseliner our counter-puncher really. But I we've seen people here call Murray, Nadal, and a number of other Pro's "pushers", so ya gotta take some of it with a grain of salt I suppose.

Bringing the speed aspect to rec tennis, I think everyone becomes a pusher to a person if the pace of shots coming from the opponent doesn't meet their desired expectation or what is normal at their level. They might not understand that opponent is still using good pace, but is more focused on placement and fitness as their weapons. Just not as sexy and is a big challenge for many of us. These discussions always suss that out for me.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Bringing the speed aspect to rec tennis, I think everyone becomes a pusher to a person if the pace of shots coming from the opponent doesn't meet their desired expectation or what is normal at their level. They might not understand that opponent is still using good pace, but is more focused on placement and fitness as their weapons. Just not as sexy and is a big challenge for many of us. These discussions always suss that out for me.

I take a different view: to me, pushing is more of a mindset and philosophy and can't be measured by a simple metric like speed. Pushing is choosing to almost always go for the very conservative, high % shot vs taking more risk which might lead to greater reward.

Example: if I play someone and give up a ball which most people would attack, the pusher will be content with getting it back.

OTOH, if i know my opponent is hitting as hard as he is comfortable with, taking risks when justified, not always playing conservatively, but I can easily handle it, then I wouldn't consider him a pusher. I'm just a better player than he.

 

[Dartagnan64]

I take a different view: to me, pushing is more of a mindset and philosophy and can't be measured by a simple metric like speed. Pushing is choosing to almost always go for the very conservative, high % shot vs taking more risk which might lead to greater reward.

This has always been my feeling. It's the mindset of never making an error. If you have that mindset you'll never take a risky shot and by extension, never hit as hard as you are capable.

I've played plenty of guys that in social hitting will put plenty of pace on the ball. But as soon as you get them into a competitive match, the pace drops, the height over the net increases, the ball placement gets conservative and it's like they've morphed into an entirely different person. To me that qualifies as a pusher since his gamestyle in a competitive match becomes 100% conservative and safe.

I probably couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I won a match without ever hitting a clean winner. I've always been the type to want the game squarely on my racket. So i will play every point to try to get the upper hand in the rally and then make an aggressive shot to win it.

But everyone is different as to what drives them to play tennis. Pusher's don't seem to care about hitting a great shot. Just win the point. Satisfying for them but there's no juice in that style for me.

 

[Johnny505]

A pusher I played against in the summer, heard recently his wife left him for her new lover.............a woman, and she looks more masculine than her husband.

 

[mcs1970]

This has always been my feeling. It's the mindset of never making an error. If you have that mindset you'll never take a risky shot and by extension, never hit as hard as you are capable.

I've played plenty of guys that in social hitting will put plenty of pace on the ball. But as soon as you get them into a competitive match, the pace drops, the height over the net increases, the ball placement gets conservative and it's like they've morphed into an entirely different person. To me that qualifies as a pusher since his gamestyle in a competitive match becomes 100% conservative and safe.

I probably couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I won a match without ever hitting a clean winner. I've always been the type to want the game squarely on my racket. So i will play every point to try to get the upper hand in the rally and then make an aggressive shot to win it.

But everyone is different as to what drives them to play tennis. Pusher's don't seem to care about hitting a great shot. Just win the point. Satisfying for them but there's no juice in that style for me.

Is hitting as hard as possible the best approach anyway? If so, bulked up folks would dominate tennis. The best strokes are a combination of speed, control, placement, with margin for error.

My skepticism of the whole pusher argument comes from only watching a couple of guys (the shirtless guy comes to mind) who would truly embody the pusher stereotype. Else most of the videos I have seen, I have come away feeling that the so called pusher was the better tennis player.

Coming to pros, you cannot break into the top 10 by purely playing defense. Lendl and Wilander had maddening matches on clay. However both were good on faster surfaces too and hit a lot of winners. Simon is a defensive player but he is hitting the ball deep and with good pace. Else even pros below 100 would be hitting clean winners off those balls.

 

[mcs1970]

you surely don't follow the football in Europe
while some people like the tactical satisfaction of defense, in particularly the famous Italian Catenaccio, if you look at fan bases, teams with attacking style have more fans and followers
and then you of course have complaints from everyone, players, coaches, fans whenever a Catenaccio style team wins any major trophy

The soccer argument is a different one. At a certain point teams like Germany specialized in just keep away. FIFA even changed rules after that.

In tennis there is no keep away. You control points on your serve if you have a good serve. You can serve and volley. You can attack a weak ball by your opponent and seize control of the point. You can take advantage of your opponent’s weak serves. There are many avenues in tennis to impose your style of play, if you are the better player. Even on slow or clay courts that holds true. OTOH, if your opponent is the better player he will impose his style on you.

 

[bobleenov1963]

Can a pusher beat an 11.5 UTR junior?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Can a pusher beat an 11.5 UTR junior?

Sure...if he's a 12.5 pusher.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Is hitting as hard as possible the best approach anyway? If so, bulked up folks would dominate tennis. The best strokes are a combination of speed, control, placement, with margin for error.

That's just the opposite extreme of a pusher and it's probably a worse approach than defence. Most high level tennis is dominated by defensive counterpunchers. Guys that mostly play defensive baseline game and attack any short ball. There are few First strike players using a big serve, volleys and massive FH's in the top 5. So even at the top levels, defense wins.

At rec intermediate levels most people play in the middle of the extremes. Not a lot of big serves. Not a lot of overwhelming FH's. Not a lot of moonballers. Most of it is moderate pace, wait for a mishit or tactical error, hit a winner ( or miss) and on to the next point. The more consistent players win.

But every now and then you meet that extreme style person, either totally defensive or totally offensive. Both are un-fun to play against but you get a better outing against the defensive player since he gives you lots of opportunities to hit the ball. The undisciplined basher either hits winners or errors and your job is just to try to give him enough opportunities to self destruct. Half the time you are irrelevant to the match.

Fortunately I come across these types only rarely. Most people play a pretty decent mix of risk and caution.

 

[mcs1970]

That's just the opposite extreme of a pusher and it's probably a worse approach than defence. Most high level tennis is dominated by defensive counterpunchers. Guys that mostly play defensive baseline game and attack any short ball. There are few First strike players using a big serve, volleys and massive FH's in the top 5. So even at the top levels, defense wins.

At rec intermediate levels most people play in the middle of the extremes. Not a lot of big serves. Not a lot of overwhelming FH's. Not a lot of moonballers. Most of it is moderate pace, wait for a mishit or tactical error, hit a winner ( or miss) and on to the next point. The more consistent players win.

But every now and then you meet that extreme style person, either totally defensive or totally offensive. Both are un-fun to play against but you get a better outing against the defensive player since he gives you lots of opportunities to hit the ball. The undisciplined basher either hits winners or errors and your job is just to try to give him enough opportunities to self destruct. Half the time you are irrelevant to the match.

Fortunately I come across these types only rarely. Most people play a pretty decent mix of risk and caution.

I agree with this and this is why I feel that threads about so called pushers are meaningless. The ones who never attack and the ones who attack recklessly are both destined to stay at a low level.

However that is also why I don’t agree with categorizing pros, especially ones who broke into the top 10, as pushers. There are a lot of facets to the game...serves, returns, punishing weak balls, punishing short balls,...etc that another pro can easily take advantage of.

If they cannot do that, it means the so called pusher pro has very few overall weaknesses. So it is incorrect to just look at length of rallies and say that someone’s style is that of a pusher. It is a high level defensive style with not many weaknesses in other parts of their game too. That to me is not a pusher. I would love to play someone like that anytime because that player would be solid top to bottom.

 

[Moveforwardalways]

Love this 4.5 pusher strolling around between shots while the other guy is trying to play “real tennis” and working so hard. How demoralizing.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Love this 4.5 pusher strolling around between shots while the other guy is trying to play “real tennis” and working so hard. How demoralizing.

I think this is a different case: shirtless guy is clearly at least a level better than his opponent and can afford to stroll around, not split step, look like he's reading a magazine, etc.

If he played a peer, I think his real game would show up.

 

[onehandbh]

Meet Gilles. Gilles Simon.

It’s all relative.

A 4.5 or 5.0 would be getting overpowered by Gilles Simon.

 

[jhick]

It’s all relative.

A 4.5 or 5.0 would be getting overpowered by Gilles Simon.

Maybe a bit overpowered but moreso moved all over the court and taken out of their normal game.

 

[Dartagnan64]

It’s all relative.

A 4.5 or 5.0 would be getting overpowered by Gilles Simon.

Yes and a 2.0 would get blown apart by a 3.5 pusher. Pushing almost always only applies to your game style when playing "at level"